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Hopefully we still get item bonuses on Elemental Blast if it's going to be similar to spell attacks but not one. Because the accuracy of spell attacks does not scale at all well and Kineticist doesn't get True Strike to help. Also hoping they use martial weapon proficiency rather than Class DC as that would help accuracy a smidge. Part of the reason Spell Attacks suck is the proficiency with them goes up slower in addition to no item bonuses but they go against the same thing weapon proficiency does.

Am sad to see Elemental Blast as a weapon go strictly Elemental Weapon since that did some interesting things in combination with Elemental Weapon, but it's fine as long as it can be used more reliably than spell attacks.

Also very glad to see we won't be locked to one or two elements from the get go. It seemed weird to not keep the 1e version's style of starting with one and then expanding or specializing. Especially given that style fits well in the progression of 2e classes getting a game changer class feature somewhere in the mid-levels.


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It's in a very similar chassis to Inventor, but with no damage booster as of yet. It's damage is roughly comparable in some builds according to another thread's mathing it out. They likely didn't include an Overdrive as the kineticist gets some wilder utility stuff and they were trying to get a feel for where the sweet spot is in trading damage for utility.

I am fully expecting a single target damage bump so it fits in the ballpark of where the thaum and inventor are at. Which is okay damage, but not a specialist in that and good utility options.

Some people throw out "The AoEs are terrible because mages do it better!" The kit isn't designed to be what you'd pick to be a full on mage. It's waht you pick to be a class that hits things with a weapon-like thing and have some mix of utility and AoE. You don't pick a Thaum or Inventor to play the role of a wizard.


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nick1wasd wrote:
I don't see why they can't have Master to attack and Legendary to DC, since that seems the 'easiest' proficiency bump you could give the class to make it mathematically compete with other martials on accuracy. Give it upside down Fighter scaling, starts Expert in DC/Trained in rolls, ends Legendary in DC/Master in rolls; seems to be a decent way of potentially going about it, because then you can just control how strong the DC based mechanics are, independent from the roll based mechanics. I, personally, don't really want/care for Legendary in attack rolls, because that just seems overkill. But Legendary in DC? Heck yeah, seems to fit the bill of how the class should work just fine imo

Honestly the main problem people had with the original suggestion of this thread was starting them in Expert and also making the blasts based of Class DC progression, as that is basically just giving fighter accuracy and full mage casting on DCs and better in fact because no mages start expert casting.

I could get behind Kineticists eventually hitting Legendary Class DC. Starting Expert in it? That's probably a no from me.


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If you form an elemental weapon you can only do blasts of the same type (other impulses are not limited that way).

This does have it's benefits either way. As it's usually an increase in damage, you could pick a ranged weapon on earth to have better range if you need it, etc.

Think of it as specializing your blast to a range rather than losing an attack mode, as you can just switch back if you need to for the same action cost as drawing a weapon but better because it kinda also stashes the weapon mode for free rather than you needing to drop a weapon to save the stashing action.

It can also be neat in some combinations. Like if your blast is agile and you aren't at risk of provoking you can swing with bigger weapon then agile melee blast. Or technically if your blast isn't agile you can do the same picking an agile weapon. Perhaps one with the parry trait for extra functionality?

Oo. Dwarf earth Kineticist that forms an earth Clan Dagger and has those Clan Dagger feats could be flavorful now that I think about it.


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Onkonk wrote:

Higher base damage and lower accuracy is worse against higher level foes. Fighter does about the same damage as barbarian against a same level foes but lower levels (or stuff like flat-footed) favors the barbarian more while fighter performs better against higher ac foes.

And honestly I don't think boosting accuracy means they get less interesting stuff either, again looking at the fighter compared to many other martials they get powerful riders like Knockdown, are better at using critical specialization abilities, can even make enemies slowed with their attacks and gets very powerful disrupting tools. I don't think the barbarian neccesarily gets a lot more interesting and powerful riders to their attacks.

Not that I am married to having legendary progression on stuff but I think it seems like a bit of a made up problem that if you boost accuracy that means acrually that you have to make them suck anyways.

Fighters mostly get better action economy on things other people can already do such as grab and trip, etc. More crit specs and stuff.

Barbarians can get access to elemental damage, breath weapons, size increases, throwing up to huge objects around.

Monks get really high speed and a free twin attack feat, potentially ki spells for magic effects that also gives them baked in spell proficiency so they can be okay at innate spells.

Kineticist is basically one more notch into the utility range where inventor and Thaum are. Where they pay for accuracy to get wilder utility. (And yes I know the inventor and Thaum have damage increasing things. This is a playtest, the Kineticist will get numbers increased)

Fighter being lower utility for increased skill at hitting things doesn't mean they don't get interesting and helpful things. It means they aren't allowed to do crap like fly and stuff or get ki spells, etc.


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Grave Knight wrote:

Hm. The way I had interpreted Hand 1+ is that it requires one hand to wield but two hands to use a Strike with. Though, with how it's explain in the book it could be interpreted as being a 2 handed weapon that lets you use one hand for other actions.

That alone needs a rules clarification. It feels like all the limitations they put on Elemental Weapon makes it not worth picking up just so you don't have to deal with it. Might as well just pick up a mundane weapon.

The definition for wielding basically boils down to holding it the way you need to in order to use it and you need two hands to fire, which is the use of item.

As for the point in using Elemental Weapon instead of a normal weapon? You can pick a martial weapon and it uses your unarmed proficiency with it. You only come to with simple and unarmed progression normally.

Also it would use the same runes as your blasts presumably as it would scale illogically poorly if it didn't.


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aobst128 wrote:
One potential issue would be tengu feather fan which could give you electric arc with this hypothetical boosted proficiency. Other notable ones are kobold breath and the elemental dwarf AOE.

There's also a tenancy in newer stuff to have archetype options scale off the higher of your Class DC or Spell DC. So essentially the change suggested in the original post would give an attack option on par with a fighter's accuracy from legendary scaling and also legendary scaling in those things.


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Verzen wrote:
So your answer is - Fighters should be better at elemental blast than kineticist and wizards should be better at elemental damage than kineticists?

I can be against the idea of making them better fighters without implying they are fine.

I literally said they should buff the playtest.


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Harder if you are turned into a fighter and thus don't have anything but lasers due to system balance around accuracy.


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YuriP wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I for one understand why they did it, YuriP. It still diminishes both a potential strength of the class as well as the fun of playing a kineticist.

I don't disagree with you. I just showed my understanding of why the designer did it.

That said, I think it's pretty bad too. In the end this practically renders the Elemental Weapon useless, since its main advantage would be to be able to fight melee without suffering AoO, being forced to spend an action to switch to the normal Gather Element, which is a handling action also ends up greatly limiting the usefulness of the weapons. Elemental Weapons.

In fact, this is the main reason why my players haven't used Elemental Weapons in my Playtests. Because I warned them in advance that if he was going to use a Bastard Sword Elemental for example and they needed to do a range Elemental Blast he would have to spend an action doing Gather Element.

In other words, the only advantage that remained for the Elemental Weapon was being able to make 1d12 attacks with an Elemental Bastard but that requires strength, and it would have to deal with the low AC or it would have to be with less hit or less Con and if you face an opponent with AoO it could neither use Stone Shield nor even Deflecting Wave as the reaction itself is an Impulse and therefore causes AoO.

That's why we just ignore Elemental Weapon. In fact we are just ignoring melee kineticists at all.

Rapier is still better than most of the elements if they are DEX and they would still be able to use impulses that have range and don't fire a blast, which most elements have.

Mind you they'd still need to Gather afterward but honestly how often do people that choose to spec into melee make ranged attacks? You're calling something that solves a major problem and can boost the damage too terrible just because if they specialize the element towards melee they have to do an action to switch weapons like everyone else does if they have a melee weapon out.

And also Elemental Weapon is good for playing at range too.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
cheezeofjustice wrote:
Verzen wrote:

I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.

You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.

This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.

This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.

A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? Gunslingers already cheated off the Fighter with having Legendary in Firearms at the same scaling of Fighters. So we have precedent that it's okay for other classes to have the same scaling as others, so long as it isn't a complete overwrite of the class. Even despite that, as it stands, a Kineticist with Legendary Class DC wouldn't be any better than or poach from any class because 1. It doesn't exist yet, meaning it's not stepping on anyone's...

Yes. An attack cantrip that scales off fighter tier proficiency and gets item bonuses from runes is a bad thing because that means they are as accurate as a fighter and gunslinger and attack with elemental damage. Even if it were only fire, the kineticist could just go dual element and be better than fighter against the majority of enemies in the game and just as good against fire resistant enemies. Not to mention also enchant a ranged and melee option with one set of runes. Plus, Extract Element is still in the class for some of the fire resist enemies.

Also, you know what is an astronomically more common resistance than fire? Resistance to physical damage.

Also you're judging their mastery of the elements solely on their pew pew laser and ignoring the rest of the class. Mastery of the elements isn't just PEWPEWPEW lasers and attacking. A kineticist can use the elements to move people around the battlefield, create walls, make fields of difficult terrain, etc. In order to be fighter/gunslinger the kineticist would need to be far lower utility and thus far far less a master of the elements by every other metric than PEWPEWPEW.

The Kineticist is one of the most requested ports from 1e and was middle of the road damage with cool utility powers. They should just buff the playtest's single target damage and move on. NOT force it into a class chassis the original was the exact opposite of and remove a big part of its core identity.

A master of the elements class that only shoots lasers is boring and doesn't live up to the fantasy. If they are going to give me the option to play a master of the air element I better the heck be able to fly and make tornadoes. If I am given a master of earth I better be able to walk through the earth and mess with the ground.

If they want to make a magic fighter they should make a new magic pew pew class with no baggage or expectations.


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Well as far as why you would want to blast instead of strike, Some of the blasts are agile and conversely there's also the option of forming an agile weapon. That way you can hit with the more damaging of the two and then follow up with the agile one of the two.

More universally speaking, it's not entirely clear if you use weapon damage for impulses that make you attack with blasts.

Also provoking isn't usually a huge deal unless you run into one of the rare monsters with more than one. It's rare until higher levels and not an all the time thing even then. It's also easily played around, especially at higher levels. Hell the default play patterns everyone recommends you do all the time help thwart them.


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Even if you can get your legendary proficiency in them via picking the group unarmed strikes are in (since blasts use your unarmed strikes proficiency) they aren't in the brawling group so the fighter can't get crit spec with them. In fact I suspect blasts having their own crit spec is on purpose for that and other reasons.

They also don't count as weapons so they can't be used with things like Power Attack.

The only use they would have for it is spending another feat to give the ranged form Brutal.

Well that and having access to a weapon that deals fire damage. Which is one reason I think the base blasts should all be physical and there be some Kineticist only thing that unlocks energy damage for them.

Though elemental weapon might have weird interactions in fighter hands.


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Verzen wrote:
cheezeofjustice wrote:
Verzen wrote:

I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.

You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.

This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.

This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.

A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.

As opposed to right now where they are the lowest DPS class in the game?

It is also the only class in the game in playtest state.

Gunslinger literally didn't even have Way reloads in the playtest.

Magus Spellstrike took 2 attack rolls to function.

Most classes get buffed before full release and it's simple to give Kineticist better single target damage without making it a better fighter.


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Verzen wrote:

I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.

You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.

This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.

This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.

A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.


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Key ability score being different from attacking score changes the power budget its abilities can have. If it were statted like a regular martial it would have to have a regular amount of utility, which can't fit in things the playtest kineticist can do.

I would rather have lower accuracy sometimes and way more utility personally. Just tweak the numbers a little to bring it up to the proper balance for the class chassis it's in.

It gets some accuracy back in other places with some feats. Mind you those are multitarget. But Chain Blast pretty much gives you a +4 or +5 on your second attack and +8 to +10 on up to five attacks after that by removing the MAP on them.


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Kelseus wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
This is why white board math is never the end all. Jeesh.,
It would also help if the white board math was actually, you know, correct.

Well, technically it's correct, it's just got the wrong data in it. If there is any situation where you are fighting three APL +2 enemies with moderate AC or multiple on-level foes with extreme AC that's valid math. Mind you that won't happen nearly as often as was implied.

Not shockingly a lot of the time in this system when a person is mad about something and tries to throw math at it to prove their point it's wrong because the system uses very precise math to balance everything. Making it really hard to use math against it.

Like a certain infamous YouTuber that made a big deal of a 60% damage difference that didn't really exist and gave one side a +24% boost in damage by not including a trait on the weapon. Making the math wrong by around 84% due to not having the correct data in a correct formula.


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Unicore wrote:
Shock runes on chain blast are as awesome as they are thematic and can actually be a decent way to stack some damage on the hardest target to hit as you target enemies around them

It's very fitting to almost meme degree that the water element splash crit works really well with the shock rune arcing.

If you managed to crit multiple clumped people that would be...

Must... resist... saying... it would be shocking....


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While some might say some abilities like the basically perma-flight are too strong I kinda like that the Kineticist is the best at some of the tools it has. It doesn't have nearly the breadth of a caster but when it has a similar tool from control of elements it's a bit better if only by proxy of being at will but often just generally.

Kinda feels like this class focused on elemental manipulation as its gimmick is able to in some ways use elements better than a caster.

I feel like they got the general feel of the 1e version right with the format of the class.

And Elemental Weapon is deceptively versatile and I keep finding new ways to use it.

Lastly, I was wondering how they would balance some of these feats for the archetype. But then I realized a lot of the auras that are great are only busted with a feat to exempt your allies that would be high level in archetype. The perma-flight option? It's at a level where to grab it in archetype you'd be about the level flying ancestries get unlimited flight. That's good craftsmanship right there. Already has some balances in there! Lol.


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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Also by level 10 I expect PCs to be able to keep their enemies flat footed in many scenarios.

I bring it up a lot but dust of disappearance is only level 9 and will make most enemies flat footed to you while also being a solid defense option.

Throw on an atk boost since anything that boosts weapon or unarmed attacks will work. Even at level groups of enemies have a solid shot of being chained. Use a reroll on that first attack if it is necessary :p (given that you don't declare heropoint spends in advance).

Yeah. A good AoE Fear would work wonders for this. And God have mercy on them if that was from a Bard with Inspire Heroics. They'd likely survive each taking a single blast but they gettin' chained for sure.


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graystone wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Nop, about 56% of creatures are proficient in Acrobatics. It's basically a coin toss.
Then you add into that creatures that have other forms or movement [like a shark not having acrobatics] and the number of creatures that have to worry about it are even less.

It's a complex thing to figure out. Because how common they are to encounter can vary.

Like one might encounter a lot of things with Acrobatics for balance in the mountains but fewer in the plains. Plus some campaigns might be undead focused. A plain count by itself isn't super telling of one side is more populated with very commonly encountered things.


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aobst128 wrote:
If you have 5 targets, odds are they're below party level. Having 2 or 3 on level creatures would reduce it's value along with everything else you can do to them so the relative value of chain blast remains the same. As long as you have 2 or more targets, chain blast has higher value than your regular blasts. Of course if you are a universalist, you might find more value in gather amalgam at 10th level.

My numbers were mildly off. At 10 against on-level high AC you have to roll 10. And that's not 50% that's 55% vs High AC on-level for.

Against a fairly typical APL -2 monster in the same bracket it's actually 70% going to moderate bracket bumps that to 75%. Low bumps it to 85%

APL -3 is 80% in high, 85% in moderate, and 95% in low.

As far as backing up my claim his original math is off, he is sending level 1 stats at an AC of 18. Looking at the Building Creatures rules that's 1 lower than an extreme AC for a level 1 monster and isn't moderate until a level three monster.

His math he claims is a common AC and comparing against is APL +2 for the stats he's using.

So yeah. Factually not reflective of a monster those stats would run into more than two of.


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I would like to point out that even a level 1 Kineticist wouldn't have a 40% hit chance against the stated 12 AC. It would be 50% at that level.

I would also like to point out Chain Blast is a level 10 feat so comparing success chances with level 1 numbers is mildly odd.

Comparing actual bonuses at the actual level of the feat reveals that even against an on level enemy with an AC in the High category you'd have a 50% chance to hit the first attack.

And the majority of enemies are below party level. And remember that was the High AC.

That was also without any buffs on the Kineticist or debuffs on any enemy.

So the math of the original post is fairly off.


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kwodo wrote:

"Each Strike counts toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made all the Strikes."

They all have the same chance to hit, they aren't affected by MAP.

I think he's determining probability by multiplying 40% by itself and going through the motions of that method. Since 40% times itself is 16%.


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Unicore wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Thaago wrote:

Hrrrm, I'm seeing a lot of 'Chain Blast is good/amazing' going around, but I really don't think it is. I haven't done a rigorous analysis yet, but a quick look does not leave me impressed. On the one hand multiple MAPless attacks is great, but on the other hand any miss ending the chain is rough.

Its only going to be used vs multiple lower level enemies, so that helps, but even if the hit chance is all the way up to 75%, that means you only get to the 3rd attack 56% of the time.

All you need to make it better than a standard 2 blasts is to hit the first one. 2 actions for 2 targets without map is already good. Sucks when the chain breaks at the first attack though.
That is what hero points are for!

Yeah, for sure. Plus it is just two actions. No overflow no other resource loss. Sometimes it will happen you miss. Sometimes you will hit 3 or even more targets (the more targets there are, the more likely they will have even lower AC.)

Any Solo monster who had this ability is going to be a terror

It's a good tool for managing action economy. Psuedo-AoE for when you aren't in position for the rest so you can just throw this out there and then get in position to Overflow next turn.

Which is a pattern that gets a nice buff from Flowing Kinetics. Between the two impulses you can get a full stride split in half or two steps or step and half stride.

Honestly Flowing Kinetics is really really good.


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Temperans wrote:


If there are many small fries either the GM dismisses the fight because "its just a waste of time to actually run through it" or they make it into a troup and all those AoE abilities are useless.

Even if its just a group of 4 enemies, AoE is basically "hope that the GM is nice enough to place them all within 5-ft of each for you" or "I am going to deal more damage to our alies than the enemy ever did". Which both suck as the...

If the GM is putting a situation with a lot of enemies in front of the players and then hand waving it away or actively deciding to do something that would nerf someone on the team that's bad GMing and not a problem with the system.

And it isn't hard to position for AoEs, the Kineticist has options for multi-target that doesn't hit allies, and more often than not if you do position for good AoEing the positions stay the way they are for the bulk of the 2-4 turn average fight and some of the longer ones.


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The 1e Kineticist was not a high single target damage dealer. To the contrary it actually need burn to not have fairly low damage compared to martials and casters. And it made up for this in having high utility and cool tricks.

Making it a fighter would be making it the reverse of what it was and boring. A master of manipulating primordial elements should be more than a guy that goes pew pew with lasers.

Not to mention legendary attacks with blasts and fighter style feats isn't particularly balanced. That's just something that is more accurate than a regular martial all the time and if it deals energy damage is superior to weapons because it bypasses the most common resistances, and half the game it's as accurate as the fighter because it catches up in attacking score in the gaps of 5-9 and 15-20. And Earth has an ability that gives +2 STR baked in so they can get Apex benefits in 2 scores.

So that's inherently a martial but better, especially if you have two element or the greater rune matching your elemental damage.


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Captain Morgan wrote:


Eh. If the kinetic blasts wind up inherently better than ranged weapons, you'd need some restraints for multiclassing. IMO blasts should be at most equal to weapons, and the kineticist can have a boosting feature not available through multiclassing. Like how multiclass rangers can Hunt Prey but don't get Hunter's Edge

Don't gunslingers get a small amount of flat damage with guns?

In theory you could give Kineticist the same thing.

But that's kinda already Stoke Element.

My point is you could just buff Kineticist's blast use but not the blast.


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graystone wrote:
cheezeofjustice wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I'd love it if I could melee blast without provoking
Take Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.

You see a lot of martials making ranged attacks with a melee weapon out without changing weapons?

You want range just fire an overflow and regather. Only range limit the weapon puts on is on blasts.

If you're dual element you can do it faster because they get a feat that let's them gather and fire a blast in one action.


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Martialmasters wrote:
I'd love it if I could melee blast without provoking

Take Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.


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I more meant usable on literally anyone. People are fussing about the lack of accuracy and damage. Here's a thing that boosts accuracy and does a little damage while gathering an element. You could maybe tweak the numbers or effects if needed. As a bonus it gets past the issue with things that have the resist but not the typing.

Plus give it another effect that's not necessarily damage to yourself if you use the action on yourself that sets you back in some way and boosts you. AKA a Burn mechanic.

Then include feats to upgrade the various uses.

I think it's worth pondering to address some issues people have with it maybe.


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Guntermench wrote:
cheezeofjustice wrote:

The greatest travesty of this is while I can use Elemental Weapon to make a literal water gun I can't make an electric guitar (battle lute).

Though I suppose being able to make a literal air guitar is also funny.

If you have a way to gain access to it you can. "It must be common, or you must otherwise have access to it."

I know. You still wouldn't be able to make an electric one though as there's no actually electric blast. Just air.


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The greatest travesty of this is while I can use Elemental Weapon to make a literal water gun I can't make an electric guitar (battle lute).

Though I suppose being able to make a literal air guitar is also funny.


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- You use your unarmed proficiency with the weapon so kinda free proficiency in a weapon.

- Regular strikes with the weapon don't provoke like a melee blast does.

- You'd get the weapon traits unless they change damage types.

- Half the elements can get at least a small damage increase. One can get a large one.

- As currently written it doesn't exclude weapons with the Two Hand or Fatal Aim trait so you can summon then two-hand it for bigger die.


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Some people have damage and action economy complaints, and I notice there's this thing right here that could maybe get a tweak or two and be a solution.

It kinda makes sense as a gameplay loop to pull an element out of someone and then that "marked" target be easier to hit with that mote of power and take a bit of damage from the process. It could have greater effect on creatures with the trait matching what you are pulling.

It would also help when dealing with the rare thing that has a resistance to your element but not the trait.

Of course in theory the exact success listings might need tweaking. I'm just talking in theory this could be the spot for fiddling to buff the class a little.

The only problem is then Gathering out of targets becomes a core part of the loop and that's a notable flavor change.

Though random unrelated thought: I wonder if there's an ability to gather element from persistent damage. That seems like it would be a cool option to take.

EDIT: Oh hang on! People expressed a desire for a form of Burn and here's a move that draws elements out of a creature, does damage, etc. You could also in theory use this move as a vessel for Burn, having different effects if you use it on yourself, themed around drawing more than is safe to draw with regular gathering! Maybe even have different effects based on what element you draw out of yourself! That could also balance out the problem with just having it draw offensively on targets creating a flavor issue.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Elemental Weapon is a little weird in wording as Elemental Blast could be read as either a noun or verb within the context of the thing.

Feat reads wrote:

The weapon is still the gathered element and can be used

for impulses, is expended for overflow impulses, and so on.
It can also be used for Elemental Blasts or standard Strikes
(provided they’re melee blasts or Strikes if you choose a melee
weapon or ranged blasts or Strikes if you choose a ranged
weapon)

It's not 100% clear whether you use the weapon for performing the Elemental Blast action and deal its dice or if you simply retain the ability to use regular blasts with their normal damage when you have the weapon in hand.

- The first line of the section says you can use impulses with it, and Elemental Blast is an Impulse so it would seem redundant if "It can also be used for Elemental Blasts" meant the same thing. Though it might be intended to clarify that your blast type is limited.

- Speaking of which it seems a little weird to limit you to Elemental Blasts of the same type as the weapon if they are just using regular blast stats in place of the weapons, though I suppose the weapon can have reach or long range and that might apply?

- However if you can use the weapon stats on the Eldritch Blast action that kinda makes a weird thing where you can take a feat to finesse bastard swords (the Elemental Weapon feat wording does not exclude weapons with the Two Hand trait) or brutal firearms as long as you use the Elemental Blast action instead of a normal Strike. Though I don't really think this is horribly broken.

I would appreciate some developer clarification on this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not getting. Have. Dual and Omni get a fairly early feat to blast and gather or the reverse, Omni gets one at ten to gather lots of elements.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Nitro~Nina wrote:

I love power-at-a-price but I feel like enough people utterly despise it that it shouldn't be as built-in as it is for the Oracle. I also like that there isn't much resource management in the class centred around being the outflow valve of a plane of raw unrestrained power.

It'd be nice to have something conceptually similar to Strain Mind as an opt-in feat to represent ripping the safety off and letting the power flow. Perhaps even a Class Archetype, as I notice that all the concept-defining feats have avoided Level 2 like something's supposed to slot in there.

This. I would prefer Burn be optional rather than consuming some of my default power budget unless it's going to be a big deal. And I was kinda mid on 1e Burn really.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The current form has none of the action economy boosts of dual and ALL elements. It needs to wait to 14 to get one and action economy is kinda important to damage.

Plus you are kinda gating Elemental Activation by going some elements with few spells associated (though I imagine they will get some in Rage of Elements).

Not to mention you throw away a bunch of utility variety.

Just seems like it takes a lot of hits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Also worth noting that the current phrasing of the ability and the kit allows you to pick a one handed weapon with the two hand trait and 2 hand it after summoning it.

Also Flexible Blast might combo with it since you can use the weapon for Blasts. If this means you do the the weapon damage with the blast action (which I think you do?) it would mean you can finesse those things. Or use STR with guns. As long as you are using the Blast action with them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:

I think one thing that has gone unsaid is the reliability of the monk. A precision immune enemy destroys a rogue or Swashbuckler damage. Calm emotions, enemies using hit and run or being knocked unconscious stops a barbarian raging. Damage resistance hurts a fighter more than a monk (monk can access different damage types through feats but all of them will be buffed by one set of runes.)

A monks optimal might not be as high as some other classes but it is also very hard for them to operate at anything less.

That's actually a good point !

Flurry also helps with that consistency since a monk can almost always get two attacks into a round where other martials find themselves running out of actions. For example, the barbarian hits harder but even with Sudden Charge they only get 1 attack on the round they raged if they had to move or draw a weapon. (Though Pounce obviously changes that eventually.) Same with a precision ranger. Hitting harder only helps if you actually land the hit.

That said, monks do get some major spikes once metal strikes comes into play.

And I don't know if this was mentioned or not (long thread and I'm on a time crunch today) but Flurry is also one of few actual ways to get multiple unarmed strikes in one action. Nearly every similar ability calls out wielding weapons. Unarmed strikes don't count as those. So technically Monk is way better at being the class good at punching than some give it credit for. Especially in the niche cases of ancestries with special unarmed benefits such as orcs, sprites, and gnolls.

And while stances just bring you up to similar one-handed damage as weapons, they often have more traits than weapons and innately come with the Free Hand trait.

And they are capable of hitting weaknesses way better than many martials if you build to that.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Time to write really edgy poetry as I wait for Book of the Dead and suffer. Maybe I'll take a break once or twice to read the edgiest manga for the edgiest anime of the season "Spy x Family".

(I'm kidding, it's not an edgy anime, it's a quirky wholesome comedy with a slightly Baccano feel in its weird, slightly absurdist humor. I can recommend)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

All in all they had way more to gain from accepting and a hell of a lot to lose from not accepting that would outweigh any corporate issues (like needing to raise prices to meet demands that cost money and giving a little control of the company up).

From the tone the union was taking this might actually save Paizo some money as they expressed desire to help shoulder some of the worker issue stuff by providing a means by which to centralize them and have the information about the issues come from one source that's probably done some extra busy work to look into them. Which they expressed was a big issue as that was falling to the guy in charge of publishing, when that's kinda not even his actual job. The union handling that is kinda a whole "free" employee. Two or more in some business structures. It also helps team leads as they have more of a support structure for that task.

Throw on top of that the apparent news that the striking freelancers (last I heard) dropped most if not all their demands in favor of supporting the union and that's another problem at least temporarily sorted (or rather moved forward into a more final resolution).

It was all but a certainty they would accept really.

We may see some price increases, but overall the 10-20% some are expecting is still within typical price ranges for books in this hobby IMO.

Though I would hope that a price increase leads to a bit better clean-up in editing and sometimes formatting. The books are mostly great but there are often glaring errors editors can't catch because they aren't rules devs. Perhaps this could be fixed by slightly looser deadlines so writers can give an extra proofread? I wouldn't mind slightly slower content release for cleaner product.


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Given the meetings and lawyer consultations and paperwork that would need to be drafted, looked over, and approved this was pretty close to immediate really. Congrats for both sides of this!


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David knott 242 wrote:

I think Paizo management is dedicated to staying in business and making that business as profitable as possible.

Fighting the union beyond any necessary legal due diligence would be the surest way they could fail at that goal.

I see only two factors that might lead them down that suicidal path:

1) Since the unionization effort has been going on for some time, they may be biased by any missteps in its early phases.

2) Paizo is a small company, with few employees and even fewer managers. Individual stupidity, if it is a factor here, becomes more likely to create problems in that situation.

I agree. Refusing to recognize the union would be kinda off brand for how they like to portray themselves as a company, and how they generally seem to be overall given 80% of complaints that come out are framed as Paizo aren't villains, there's just problems fairly common in companies and the people leveling them for the most part want them to be fixed and Paizo to succeed. Even Sara, who was controversially fired has a distinct vibes of this, going so far as to actually come to Paizo's defense on some accusations and actively showing up to the podcast supporting the good vibes. The unionization is ever super amicable and pushing forward a message of this being as much about helping out Paizo as protecting the workers and explaining they believe many of the working condition issues are from management being as over-taxed as some of the workers.

Throughout the scandal Paizo employees (even middle managers) have been pretty open (way moreso than most companies tend to be at least) after they had time to gather their thoughts, they encouraged the various hashtags, and more with seemingly little fear of any retaliation.

Plus think of the good press and good faith recognizing the union would get. I'm no corporate guru and I imagine recognizing a union comes with a few risks and concessions I don't know about. However, there's a work stoppage among freelancers that accepting would fix, the immediate demands are pretty mild relatively, and the union is actively volunteering to help do some stuff the company would normally need to pay for or force on someone. Aside from stuff on the backend I don't know about there's so much more to be gained from accepting this good vibes union than refusing. Refusing would be borderline hitting the self-destruct button.

That being said, I highly respect the union's call for patience and understanding given how intensely some on this forum were shouting down the initial corporate statement when the scandals first came out. There's a process to things in business and there's reasons for most of those processes. We don't need to metaphorically pin them to a stake and light them up.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

When they eventually errata the Daikyu I hope they also insert a new trait for the bit where longbows can't be used mounted. I can understand why they might not have done so originally, but it would be just good for making sure you don't forget the rule when throwing a character together if you see some trait (maybe call it 'infantry') listed there on it that means that the weapon can't be used mounted.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:

I agree with Unleash Focused Intent only working with slot spells instead of only working with cantrips feels incredibly backwards.

It should either affect cantrips only *or* all spells. No need to restrict it, especially since it isn't even a power boost, just a consistency change.

Decent point. While needing to use a resource to get that damage is a balancing factor that keeps the power of the ability in check, you technically don't increase the damage the ability itself does. If anything with the cantrip damage you'll do slightly less damage.

The only doubtful thing in my mind is being able to get that bonus damage on AoE cantrips every fight all day makes Telekinetic Rend pretty strong.

Which is a small part of why I suggested making it a (maybe) level 1 feat alongside the defense one and making each subclass even more distinct by giving each one a new bespoke Unleash. That could be neat and explore the design space of the class a little more.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

When you enter any Unleash you get a free psi cantrip amp every round.

The baseline Unleashed Focused Intent only works on slot spells.

Therefore you either use the free amp or you get the specific effect of the Unleash. Not both. So to a degree the only thing that keeps this from discouraging use of cantrips is your fewer slots. Though I can agree to an Unleash that makes your fewer spells better I kinda think this is a little clunky this early. Though I have to admit it kinda rounds out your kit decently, having the amps regardless and then a tool to make your fewer slots hit harder.

It just sits a little weird to me. You benefit from casting back to back slotted spells, but you have few spells so doing so punishes you, you can't use this effect much throughout a day, especially the first few levels, because you want to save your big bang for the big threats. Also you are built around cantrips design-wise, but your base Unleash does nothing to boost them beyond the base unleash effect of free amps.

The very next Unleash you can get nerfs your accuracy with spells. You don't get a cantrip augmenting Unleash until 6th level.

Do you think maybe they should shift this to a feat (maybe even just a 1st level one so the first feat unleashes have kinda a mirrored effect where you pick either offense or defense. Then make the base Unleash something that works on cantrips? Maybe give the Conscious Minds their own Unleashes that add something to cantrips, perhaps improving over levels?

Or is the rounding out of your kit by powering up your few slotted spells of vital importance? Would the first Unleash augmenting cantrips too strong for level 1 combined with free amps?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I think some feat (or just giving it to the base ability) that makes you totally ignore rarity to RK would fix it as Lore skills has lower DCs they scaled better than first glance would make you think.

Maybe something that lets you research targets (which you could even use Gather Information for research) and then later it upgrades to not need prior research. That way if you are tracking something you can take a little downtime, remove the rarity penalty and go after it. Very flavorful. But if you are jumped by something it's tricky, but with lot's of hunting experience you can deduce things, removing the penalty with experience in place of the research.

Thinking on it, some feat or ability to retrain Additional Lore faster would be flavorful but maybe too strong.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not to sound antagonistic or anything, but what is with so many thinking classes can't have similar abilities and themes? If that were that case we'd have only the core classes.

There's TONS of design space for Inquisitor. This isn't even the first class or thing in this game that steps into the theme of hunting enemies and finding and assailing their weak points. That's like... 3 or 4 classes already to varying levels of power. It's pretty much one of the most common things in the game.

I could build the core of a distinct Inquisitor with a monster bane style thing in like five minutes. Multiple subclass concepts included. It would actually be pretty easy because Inquisitor's 1e design is inherently very well suited to existing 2e mechanics.

And while we're at it there's also that other similar claim so I'll just tap my hand somewhat lightly yet dramatically on the table as if to emphasize a point in a debate and say Kineticist isn't doomed to being a psychic archetype just because psychic is based around spamming a magical thingy all day and has a mode that empowers them and has drawbacks. There's at least 2 other classes that are close to that design space already as well. Psychic isn't a Barbarian or Oracle subclass obviously, so Kineticist doesn't have to be locked into that either.

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