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I don't think alignment is really all that useful as a shorthand for politics given how different any given individual interpretation of such vague terms as "good" "evil" "lawful" etc are going to be be. At least for character alignments it's only addressing one person; trying to fit entire societies into 9 easy categories of morality is even more unreliable. Not that it isn't attempted in the real world (side-eyes political compass tests) but it tends to be very subjective in practice.
For my part, I don't think authoritarians are necessarily opposed to innovation. They can be, but just as often they instead want it to be fully controlled by whatever power they support.
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What are people from ravounel called they aren't chelish anymore but I don't remember them being called something new
My guess for the demonym would be Ravouneli, but I haven't seen the demonym in print.
Ethnically, they're Taldan like the people of Cheliax.
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The people of cheliax are ethnic chelaxian
You won't find Chelaxian ethnicity in 2e. It's been Taldan since the 2e core.
What are people from ravounel called they aren't chelish anymore but I don't remember them being called something newMy guess for the demonym would be Ravouneli, but I haven't seen the demonym in print.
Ethnically, they're Taldan like the people of Cheliax.
I would have thought Ravounellian, similar to Chelaxian, though I've never been clear on the difference between Chelaxian and Chellish or why there is one. Like Osirian and Osiriani - it doesn't really seem like something that needs two words for.
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Yeah, most people in Avistan are ethnically Taldan. The Kellid, Shoanti, Varisians, Nidaelese, Ulfen, Jadwiga, and Varki are the other Avistani ethnicities.
It's not really that different from how most people in Nex and Geb are Osiriani. Big empires that fall apart tend to leave their people in territories they used to hold.
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1E had Iobarians in Mendev and Brevoy but they seem to have vanished consumed by the unending tide of taldensYeah, most people in Avistan are ethnically Taldan. The Kellid, Shoanti, Varisians, Nidaelese, Ulfen, Jadwiga, and Varki are the other Avistani ethnicities.
It's not really that different from how most people in Nex and Geb are Osiriani. Big empires that fall apart tend to leave their people in territories they used to hold.
Iobarians are in the Lost Omens Character Guide, as is a Iobarian Halfling ethnicity called the Mahrini.
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Iobarans are a Casmaron ethnicity, because Iobaria is in Casmaron. It's like how there are Keleshites and Vudrani in the Inner Sea region, large populations of them even, but Kelesh and Vudra are in Casmaron next door.
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I would have thought Ravounellian, similar to Chelaxian, though I've never been clear on the difference between Chelaxian and Chellish or why there is one. Like Osirian and Osiriani - it doesn't really seem like something that needs two words for.What are people from ravounel called they aren't chelish anymore but I don't remember them being called something newMy guess for the demonym would be Ravouneli, but I haven't seen the demonym in print.
Ethnically, they're Taldan like the people of Cheliax.
I believe, and I could be 100% wrong on how this process works, that Chelaxian specifically refers to the people while Chelish refers to something from there (Chelish Wine). Language being language they get mished and mashed, just like every other language. Again, probably wrong though.
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Similarly, I'm pretty sure Osiriani is the language and Osirian is everything else. The ethnicity is called Garundi, not Osiriani.
Nothing has changed the prevalence of Iobarians in Mendev and Brevoy, I think they're still mentioned as the original populace of the former in LOCG but I'll have to check. In any case 1e was the first to establish that there was a Taldan presence in that area. Ethnic Chelaxians haven't been retconned away so much as redefined as a subgroup.
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That doesn't contradict my point, which is that the concept of "being Chelaxian" hasn't gone away, just that they are now classified as ethnically Taldan due to shared history, language, etc with the Taldans of eastern Avistan.
Besides, arguments can and have been made that the previous Chelaxian ethnic category can be understood as an in-universe attempt to build a nationalistic identity to distinguish themselves from Taldor despite those obvious similarities . That sort of constructed identity is the basis of plenty of modern European ethnic groups, so it's not unbelievable as a concept, but since Golarion's ethnicities tend to refer to broader groups it's best left as a perception (probably largely by Chelaxian elites who are the most likely to put stock in the concept of Cheliax as a nation to begin with) rather than something referred to in the main rulebooks, hence the change to chelaxian=taldan.
As LOCG points out, ideas of ethnicity are subjective with varying degrees of specificity as in the real world; if Sargavans are sometimes viewed as a group in their own right as LOME implies, a similar attitude towards Cheliax among some people makes sense after 640 years of independence. I'm well aware that sort of ethno-nationalism has often had very unfortunate results in the real world, but this is also a country that's designed to be antagonistic within the setting (even before the Hell stuff, they had a colonial empire and allied with Nidal).
TL;DR yes the ethnicity is Taldan and the nationality is Chelaxian, I was just noting that "Taldans of southwestern Avistan sometimes differentiate themselves from the rest" still works as an idea in 2e lore
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They speak Taldane in Cheliax; they also speak Taldane in Andoran. They speak Taldane pretty much everywhere on the north coast of the inner sea and further inland.
What "Common" is, depends on where you are. Some places it's Taldane, some places it's Tien, some places it's Mwangi, some places it's Osiriani, etc.
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I also find that Ravounel's national identity isn't quite solidified. I think you're more likely to hear someone say, "I'm a Kintargan" or "I'm Vyran" than anything else.
On the one hand, more's the pity, parochialism sucks. On the other hand, it might be for the best that no one's adopting a national identity defined primarily by selling out.
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I'll trust your reading on the subject. My table's corner of the world has veered drastically off from the currently published norm so I don't have any incentive to keep up with it.As the nation gets older and has something to offer besides Kintargo and Vyre, I think it will have some kind of national identity.If anything the reverse. Kintargo and Vyre are getting poorer, and nowhere else in particular is growing.
Description comes from the World Guide. As paraphrased on the wiki:
"After the departure of those who remained loyal to Cheliax, most of Ravounel's citizens are optimistic that they can build their country into a fair and kind place, even if independent Ravounel is less rich and grandiose than when it used to be an archduchy of Cheliax."
That's capital flight.
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How does capital fight work In a pre industrial economy?I'll trust your reading on the subject. My table's corner of the world has veered drastically off from the currently published norm so I don't have any incentive to keep up with it.As the nation gets older and has something to offer besides Kintargo and Vyre, I think it will have some kind of national identity.If anything the reverse. Kintargo and Vyre are getting poorer, and nowhere else in particular is growing.Description comes from the World Guide. As paraphrased on the wiki:
"After the departure of those who remained loyal to Cheliax, most of Ravounel's citizens are optimistic that they can build their country into a fair and kind place, even if independent Ravounel is less rich and grandiose than when it used to be an archduchy of Cheliax."
That's capital flight.
Liquidate assets, flee the country with specie?
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Is Ravounel developed enough to stop it's most valuable assets from being tied to land and landownership?Liquidate assets, flee the country with specie?How does capital fight work In a pre industrial economy?I'll trust your reading on the subject. My table's corner of the world has veered drastically off from the currently published norm so I don't have any incentive to keep up with it.As the nation gets older and has something to offer besides Kintargo and Vyre, I think it will have some kind of national identity.If anything the reverse. Kintargo and Vyre are getting poorer, and nowhere else in particular is growing.Description comes from the World Guide. As paraphrased on the wiki:
"After the departure of those who remained loyal to Cheliax, most of Ravounel's citizens are optimistic that they can build their country into a fair and kind place, even if independent Ravounel is less rich and grandiose than when it used to be an archduchy of Cheliax."
That's capital flight.
In a word, yes. It hasn't been a wholly natural economy since the Chelish Civil War - none of the old empire has.
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I mean the most valuable things that Kintargo specifically could sell to Cheliax at large were silver and culture. Since Ravounel has set itself against Cheliax in a sense, Cheliax is much less interested in buying their culture.
Silver is still valuable, but the rest of the economy is now salt, timber, and fish.
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I mean the most valuable things that Kintargo specifically could sell to Cheliax at large were silver and culture. Since Ravounel has set itself against Cheliax in a sense, Cheliax is much less interested in buying their culture.
Silver is still valuable, but the rest of the economy is now salt, timber, and fish.
I assume you mean the "export economy," since Ravounel also has shipbuilding and allied industries (textile, potash), probably has developed glassmaking using the salt it is not obliged to export for soda ash, produces energy in the form of charcoal and whale oil, and probably finds zinc, lead, and copper coincident with silver (they are usually found coincident in nature)? Also agriculture (grain, cash crops for textile production, and livestock).
It's just that these industries primarily produce for the domestic market.
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Which do you think is more important for ravounel's development capital for investment or a larger labour pool for more labour intensive industries? Cause there is a whole bunch of stuff ravounel can't do due to it's tiny population.
Ordinarily, yes - but Magnimar and Korvosa have industrial economies despite having even smaller populations. Paizo's worldbuilding is just weird.
I wonder if the way forward for Ravounel economically is to leverage their shipbuilding and try to extend trade to Arcadia.
Like unlike Andoran Ravounel can get into the Arcadian ocean without having to go through the Arch of Aroden. The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants.
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The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants.
Highly doubtful, other than silver specie and maybe those crystals that could be found on Deepmar if extraction is ever started up again. Arcadia is generally more developed economically and technologically, and richer-resourced, than anywhere in Avistan.
Ravounel is in a position to dominate the Varisian Run trade as middlemen and should have willing trade partners in Magnimar, Korvosa, and especially Vidrian (each a peer power one of which is a military and political ally), but isn't noted to be trading with any of them.
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One wonders at just how much Cheliax is quietly turning the screws on them. A bit of gold in the right palms can cause so many problems, and Cheliax knows exactly how to get that gold to the exact right palms while still holding to the letter of their forced arrangement with Ravounel.
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One wonders at just how much Cheliax is quietly turning the screws on them. A bit of gold in the right palms can cause so many problems, and Cheliax knows exactly how to get that gold to the exact right palms while still holding to the letter of their forced arrangement with Ravounel.
Andoran, Taldor and other interested parties likely use similar hidden means to help Ravounel / weaken Cheliax.
And not necessarily out of the goodness of their heart.
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I wonder if the way forward for Ravounel economically is to leverage their shipbuilding and try to extend trade to Arcadia.
Like unlike Andoran Ravounel can get into the Arcadian ocean without having to go through the Arch of Aroden. The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants.
More like a trading empire I think, similar to the Netherlands in their golden age.
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If they built a mercantile empire like they would also build a navy to protect it. Ravounel having a navy will help them with all of their vulnerability in relation to cheliax.
Unless there's a navy in the background that no book has mentioned, Ravounel's policy appears to be delegating its coastal defense to the elves of Irim and Mirivenn and the defense of its ships on the high seas to Vidrian, and not to maintain a navy itself. If this is in fact the case, this parasitism may be either compelled (for instance, by having a budget too small to maintain a navy) or voluntaristic (for instance, by wanting to spend its budget on other things, though what those things might be is undefined).
My guess is that they're deprioritizing the navy in large part because "who they would need to defend themselves from by sea" is currently unclear. Like they're unlikely to be attacked by sea by Nidal or Cheliax. Anybody in the Inner Sea would have to content with the Arch of Aroden to get there (and likely has someone else they'd rather attack in between here and there). The Whispering Tyrant does not have a Navy. They're too far south for the Vikings to the north and too far north for the Pirates to the south. The only obvious potential threats are Varisia and New Thassilon, who have their own struggles that preclude naval adventurism.
Like the question of "How does Ravounel become powerful" the answer is "ships and trade" be Portugal or the Netherlands. It just seems that their priorities currently are more about stability and public good than "our nation should become powerful." They were, after all, a Chaotic Good nation.