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My interpretation is that the Inner Sea area in general is on the cusp of major technological change, with guns and gunpowder becoming more common and widespread. Even if Cheliax doesn't have much in the way of cannons or guns, it probably will in in a decade or two.
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My interpretation is that the Inner Sea area in general is on the cusp of major technological change, with guns and gunpowder becoming more common and widespread. Even if Cheliax doesn't have much in the way of cannons or guns, it probably will in in a decade or two.
The problem is, there is an entire species of Monitor dedicated to stopping exactly that: the Synesis (assuming they still exist, and just haven't been ported over yet). In short, if the Inner Sea was likely to see something that disrupted the balance of power widely adopted it would have been done so ages ago, and the only sensible in-universe answer I can think of is that Golarion is being strategically kept in a quasi-Renaissance state of equilibrium according to the Aeons' enigmatic plan (read: writer fiat), otherwise Alkenstar's discoveries would have spread across the region and rendered bows and arrows obsolete, teleporters would have connected the major cities rendering shipping unnecessary, and surely someone would have figured out what you can do with steam. The Aeons might tolerate one or two ships armed with cannon. An entire fleet would probably not make them happy, and see an intervention by the Inevitables to restore the balance. Especially when magic is common enough to achieve the same results.
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My interpretation is that the Inner Sea area in general is on the cusp of major technological change, with guns and gunpowder becoming more common and widespread. Even if Cheliax doesn't have much in the way of cannons or guns, it probably will in in a decade or two.The problem is, there is an entire species of Monitor dedicated to stopping exactly that: the Synesis (assuming they still exist, and just haven't been ported over yet). In short, if the Inner Sea was likely to see something that disrupted the balance of power widely adopted it would have been done so ages ago, and the only sensible in-universe answer I can think of is that Golarion is being strategically kept in a quasi-Renaissance state of equilibrium according to the Aeons' enigmatic plan (read: writer fiat), otherwise Alkenstar's discoveries would have spread across the region and rendered bows and arrows obsolete, teleporters would have connected the major cities rendering shipping unnecessary, and surely someone would have figured out what you can do with steam. The Aeons might tolerate one or two ships armed with cannon. An entire fleet would probably not make them happy, and see an intervention by the Inevitables to restore the balance. Especially when magic is common enough to achieve the same results.
I haven't heard about the synesis aeons before, so I went to go read their description just now and I'm not sure this assessment of their role in balancing the universe is entirely accurate. It appears that the synesis' major concern is indeed magic and technology, with a duality focused on fostering technological and philosophical discoveries on the one hand, and reining in any such developments which might be destructive to creation. It doesn't seem to me that preventing the spread of firearms is within the synesis' purview.
Again, this being my first exposure to these monitors I could well be missing important context, but I get the sense that even if the synesis felt that firearms technology was a threat to the balance of the multiverse, their role is in fostering or suppressing its discovery, and in moderating the destructive 'primal urges' of gifted mortals--which is a really weird concept to immortalize in the form of an aeon species, come to think of it...
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And if they had a problem with guns why would they let spacefairing civilizations build all of the lazerguns that landed in Numeria.
Those are a problem that solve themselves. Numerians can use all the laser pistols they could want. But none of them actually know how to make more of what is, for them, a very finite resource, and even recharging them is an ordeal. And the Aeons' plans for Golarion aren't the same as they are for other worlds (or else places like Androffan wouldn't exist).
I haven't heard about the synesis aeons before, so I went to go read their description just now and I'm not sure this assessment of their role in balancing the universe is entirely accurate. It appears that the synesis' major concern is indeed magic and technology, with a duality focused on fostering technological and philosophical discoveries on the one hand, and reining in any such developments which might be destructive to creation. It doesn't seem to me that preventing the spread of firearms is within the synesis' purview.
Again, this being my first exposure to these monitors I could well be missing important context, but I get the sense that even if the synesis felt that firearms technology was a threat to the balance of the multiverse, their role is in fostering or suppressing its discovery, and in moderating the destructive 'primal urges' of gifted mortals--which is a really weird concept to immortalize in the form of an aeon species, come to think of it...
While the Synesis Aeons specifically might not be able to stop industrial armament, I do still think they represent a wider attitude that civilisation progresses only as fast or slow as the Aeons allow, following the ineffable plans of the Monad, and that if they decided Golarion shouldn't have mass-produced cannon or rifles then it's not going to, and someone who tries to defy that is going to find the Inevitables have something to say about it. Though a fight between Chelaxian devil guards and an Inevitable raiding party over a cannon factory would be something to see.
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While the Synesis Aeons specifically might not be able to stop industrial armament, I do still think they represent a wider attitude that civilisation progresses only as fast or slow as the Aeons allow, following the ineffable plans of the Monad, and that if they decided Golarion shouldn't have mass-produced cannon or rifles then it's not going to, and someone who tries to defy that is going to find the Inevitables have something to say about it. Though a fight between Chelaxian devil guards and an Inevitable raiding party over a cannon factory would be something to see.
Per Guns and Gears, Golarion has had mass production of man-portable firearms for ten thousand years. The Inner Sea region has not.
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Yeah, if the Aeons were worried about guns, I assume they would’ve smited the Arcadian continent ages ago.
Yeah, if the Aeons were worried about guns, I assume they would’ve smited the Arcadian continent ages ago.On the other hand, maybe they did? Something has permanently underpopulated large parts of it.
...do we have a portrait of the population of the continent? Wide swathes of it are still completely undetailed in canon, but we know there's quite a few large, historic nations.
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When I ran him in Tyrant's Grasp I rolled a die on whether he'd sound like a stereotypical lich big bad, Hank Hill, or the Well Actually Guy. I got the latter; no regrets.I hear his voice as Mr. Torgue from Borderlands.But his putdowns are EPIC! (Wait, this is Pathfinder) But his putdowns are MYTHIC!Tar-Baphon as Skeletor makes it so much harder to take him seriously.I've seen him compared to Skeletor. It's not untrue.On top of that, while Tar-Baphon is a lich, and could therefore wait hundreds of years for his plans to bloom, Tar-Baphon is also Tar-Baphon, and Tar-Baphon is famously petty, peevish, and overconfident to the point that it's meme-worthy.Tar-baphon as a lich has practically forever to put his plans into motion so he could just go dormant long enough to fit a war in. Or does the lore indicate he is particularly active at the moment?He ended 1e by breaking out of his prison, destroying the nation of Lastwall, and laying siege to Absalom. He’s actively picking fights with Belkzen and threatens pretty much all of Avistab.
EXPLOSION!!!!!
My interpretation is that the Inner Sea area in general is on the cusp of major technological change, with guns and gunpowder becoming more common and widespread. Even if Cheliax doesn't have much in the way of cannons or guns, it probably will in in a decade or two.The problem is, there is an entire species of Monitor dedicated to stopping exactly that: the Synesis (assuming they still exist, and just haven't been ported over yet). In short, if the Inner Sea was likely to see something that disrupted the balance of power widely adopted it would have been done so ages ago, and the only sensible in-universe answer I can think of is that Golarion is being strategically kept in a quasi-Renaissance state of equilibrium according to the Aeons' enigmatic plan (read: writer fiat), otherwise Alkenstar's discoveries would have spread across the region and rendered bows and arrows obsolete, teleporters would have connected the major cities rendering shipping unnecessary, and surely someone would have figured out what you can do with steam. The Aeons might tolerate one or two ships armed with cannon. An entire fleet would probably not make them happy, and see an intervention by the Inevitables to restore the balance. Especially when magic is common enough to achieve the same results.I haven't heard about the synesis aeons before, so I went to go read their description just now and I'm not sure this assessment of their role in balancing the universe is entirely accurate. It appears that the synesis' major concern is indeed magic and technology, with a duality focused on fostering technological and philosophical discoveries on the one hand, and reining in any such developments which might be destructive to creation. It doesn't seem to me that preventing the spread of firearms is within the synesis' purview.
Again, this being my first exposure to these monitors I could well be missing important context, but I get the sense that even if the synesis felt...
People who die from things like measles, polio, and other stuff that has been cured here would like a word with those aeons. Some vaccines would work wonders for life extension.A lot less dying in childbirth and kids dying from smallpox.
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...do we have a portrait of the population of the continent? Wide swathes of it are still completely undetailed in canon, but we know there's quite a few large, historic nations.Yeah, if the Aeons were worried about guns, I assume they would’ve smited the Arcadian continent ages ago.On the other hand, maybe they did? Something has permanently underpopulated large parts of it.
Raiders of the Fever Sea notes that the western coast is sparsely populated compared to the rest of the continent. Presumably this refers to Tazuni (a desert land watered solely by rivers), as well as the unnamed forested area to its west (south of Halana), the unnamed desert area to its south, and/or the peninsula southwest of both.
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So I was wondering which inner sea nations would have the most trouble incorporating cannons into their navies and which would do it best or fastest?
This is essentially asking which are the rich and which are the poor countries (native iron and coal/charcoal production are important, but less so, as these can be had for a price on the world market). Generally speaking the rich countries are Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Qadira, Osirion, Absalom, Rahadoum, Katapesh, Nex, and Geb, and the poor countries are the various Linnorm Kingdoms and Thuvian and Varisian city-states, New Thassilon, Nidal, Ravounel, Jalmeray, Senghor, Alkenstar, the Shackles, and Vidrian. The latter three have managed to make up for being poor countries through various means, but the rest probably have not (and Vidrian isn't sharing with or selling to its putative allies in Senghor, Absalom, and Ravounel, presumably because of a lack of surplus but possibly to maintain their military dependence upon it).
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People who die from things like measles, polio, and other stuff that has been cured here would like a word with those aeons. Some vaccines would work wonders for life extension.A lot less dying in childbirth and kids dying from smallpox.
Do we have any numbers for those ?
I think magic brings benefits for those that we do not have here.
Not to mention the setting's Earth is in the roaring 20s IIRC. Not our early 21st century.
On the other hand, they have not suffered from our modern diseases yet.
And now I wonder if the Earth diseases brought by the Russians are killing Golarion people or if the Russians are dying from Golarion diseases.
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So I was wondering which inner sea nations would have the most trouble incorporating cannons into their navies and which would do it best or fastest?This is essentially asking which are the rich and which are the poor countries (native iron and coal/charcoal production are important, but less so, as these can be had for a price on the world market). Generally speaking the rich countries are Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Qadira, Osirion, Absalom, Rahadoum, Katapesh, Nex, and Geb, and the poor countries are the various Linnorm Kingdoms and Thuvian and Varisian city-states, New Thassilon, Nidal, Ravounel, Jalmeray, Senghor, Alkenstar, the Shackles, and Vidrian. The latter three have managed to make up for being poor countries through various means, but the rest probably have not (and Vidrian isn't sharing with or selling to its putative allies in Senghor, Absalom, and Ravounel, presumably because of a lack of surplus but possibly to maintain their military dependence upon it).
Countries that are more on the Lawful side might have trouble incorporating mass innovation.
And maybe some deities do not look kindly on it either.
Not everything in the setting hinges only on materialistic economical analysis.
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I think the lawful countries are more likely to improve useful things, while the chaotic countries are more like to create entirely new things.
The lawful countries tend to have a better structure to support improvements of tech that has been discovered. While chaotic countries have more freedom to experiment.
Lawful countries are extremely traditional.
Chaotic countries have a strong Don't tell me what to do vibe.
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I think the lawful countries are more likely to improve useful things, while the chaotic countries are more like to create entirely new things.
The lawful countries tend to have a better structure to support improvements of tech that has been discovered. While chaotic countries have more freedom to experiment.
Lawful countries are extremely traditional.
Chaotic countries have a strong Don't tell me what to do vibe.
Lawful is not inherently opposed to technological innovation, and I think that’s kind of an absurd reading of the alignment. Dongun Hold literally invented black powder firearms, somehow managing this despite a traditional dwarven society.
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Lawful is not inherently opposed to technological innovation, and I think that’s kind of an absurd reading of the alignment. Dongun Hold literally invented black powder firearms, somehow managing this despite a traditional dwarven society.I think the lawful countries are more likely to improve useful things, while the chaotic countries are more like to create entirely new things.
The lawful countries tend to have a better structure to support improvements of tech that has been discovered. While chaotic countries have more freedom to experiment.
Lawful countries are extremely traditional.
Chaotic countries have a strong Don't tell me what to do vibe.
How long did it take to become an accepted part of tradition ?
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That said, I admit my take on it lacks nuance. Way I see it, Lawful can be quite pragmatic, EXCEPT where tradition is concerned.
And innovation can be readily accepted as long as it is approved by the legitimate authorities following due process (can take time).
Innovation that is seen as going against tradition is fighting an upmountain battle.
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Bringing this rather abstract discussion back around to Cheliax, we are talking about an autocracy which has engineered two thoroughgoing social reformations in as many generations: the eclipse of the traditional nobility by the paranobility (by royal patronage of the paranobility and of handicraft over agricultural production, usury of the traditional nobility, and the consequent disruption of the natural agricultural economy) and the emancipation-without-revolt of the slave classes (again dispossessing quite a lot of rich people, while tying the freedmen's covertly-imposed obligations to the state rather than the erstwhile master classes). A society overly focused on adherence to tradition, this ain't. Rather, it attempts to adhere to an ideal model that is not its own past (to wit: Hell).
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Cheliax is less "traditionalist" and more "the security services can more or less get to anybody and have almost zero accountability."
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Bringing this rather abstract discussion back around to Cheliax, we are talking about an autocracy which has engineered two thoroughgoing social reformations in as many generations: the eclipse of the traditional nobility by the paranobility (by royal patronage of the paranobility and of handicraft over agricultural production, usury of the traditional nobility, and the consequent disruption of the natural agricultural economy) and the emancipation-without-revolt of the slave classes (again dispossessing quite a lot of rich people, while tying the freedmen's covertly-imposed obligations to the state rather than the erstwhile master classes). A society overly focused on adherence to tradition, this ain't. Rather, it attempts to adhere to an ideal model that is not its own past (to wit: Hell).
Is Hell well known for its love of innovation then ?
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How long did it take to become an accepted part of tradition ?Lawful is not inherently opposed to technological innovation, and I think that’s kind of an absurd reading of the alignment. Dongun Hold literally invented black powder firearms, somehow managing this despite a traditional dwarven society.I think the lawful countries are more likely to improve useful things, while the chaotic countries are more like to create entirely new things.
The lawful countries tend to have a better structure to support improvements of tech that has been discovered. While chaotic countries have more freedom to experiment.
Lawful countries are extremely traditional.
Chaotic countries have a strong Don't tell me what to do vibe.
G&G describes the Donguni experimenting with black powder pretty much immediately after their retreat into the Darklands in 572 (itself motivated by a societal admission that their prior way of life was unsustainable in their current context). The uber-traditionalists in the Hold are framed as racist jerks who covertly fund sabotage and terrorism.
A Lawful society is not one opposed to technological and industrial innovation - just tell that to anyone whose home was bulldozed in the name of 'progress,' so that a railway or factory could be built.
This whole aside has me deeply grateful Alignment is dead.
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the USSR (and I'm sure many will agree that this is a law-abiding society)
Alas the RSFSR was never given an alignment, and no adventure has taken us to the USSR. Bachuan was LN. But again, alignment is dead.
In any event, the point is well-taken that "lawful" as applied to societies can simply mean "strong state" or "strong regime" with little commentary on policy preference.
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Is Hell well known for its love of innovation then ?Red herring. Hell approves of Cheliax's self-conscious emulation and self-flattery, as both make it easier to control.
Not intended as a red herring at all.
If Cheliax refers to Hell as the tradition they must follow, knowing the stance of Hell about innovation matters, since Cheliax will try to imitate it.
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How long did it take to become an accepted part of tradition ?Lawful is not inherently opposed to technological innovation, and I think that’s kind of an absurd reading of the alignment. Dongun Hold literally invented black powder firearms, somehow managing this despite a traditional dwarven society.I think the lawful countries are more likely to improve useful things, while the chaotic countries are more like to create entirely new things.
The lawful countries tend to have a better structure to support improvements of tech that has been discovered. While chaotic countries have more freedom to experiment.
Lawful countries are extremely traditional.
Chaotic countries have a strong Don't tell me what to do vibe.
G&G describes the Donguni experimenting with black powder pretty much immediately after their retreat into the Darklands in 572 (itself motivated by a societal admission that their prior way of life was unsustainable in their current context). The uber-traditionalists in the Hold are framed as racist jerks who covertly fund sabotage and terrorism.
A Lawful society is not one opposed to technological and industrial innovation - just tell that to anyone whose home was bulldozed in the name of 'progress,' so that a railway or factory could be built.
This whole aside has me deeply grateful Alignment is dead.
Not me, because, now, if I want to get a mental picture of what a country's culture would be like, then I need to read all about said country and try to infer from that. Rather than look at 2 letters and infer from those.
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If Cheliax refers to Hell as the tradition they must follow, knowing the stance of Hell about innovation matters, since Cheliax will try to imitate it.
The word I used was "ideal," also "model." Hell in the Chelish scheme plays the role of a Fourieran phalanstery (an enlightened design arrived at through reason, to be implemented with power), not a Chestertonian tradition (sometimes rebuttably, sometimes not, presumed to be left in place).
Hell, as it happens, is a machine for perfecting and extending domination and control. It does not rest on its laurels, but aims to conquer the rest of the world and bring it into itself, and accepts that its own efforts towards that end require constant improvement.
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If Cheliax refers to Hell as the tradition they must follow, knowing the stance of Hell about innovation matters, since Cheliax will try to imitate it.The word I used was "ideal," also "model." Hell in the Chelish scheme plays the role of a Fourieran phalanstery (an enlightened design arrived at through reason, to be implemented with power), not a Chestertonian tradition (sometimes rebuttably, sometimes not, presumed to be left in place).
Hell, as it happens, is a machine for perfecting and extending domination and control. It does not rest on its laurels, but aims to conquer the rest of the world and bring it into itself, and accepts that its own efforts towards that end require constant improvement.
If Hell indeed works this way, I think Cheliax would try to emulate it.
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Not me, because, now, if I want to get a mental picture of what a country's culture would be like, then I need to read all about said country and try to infer from that. Rather than look at 2 letters and infer from those.
Given how astray those two letters have led you here (export that thought to other Lawful countries - is Rahadoum opposed to innovation, or Oprak?), I think that’s a feature, not a bug. “I have to actually read the lore!” isn’t a complaint that’s gonna carry much water for me :p
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Not me, because, now, if I want to get a mental picture of what a country's culture would be like, then I need to read all about said country and try to infer from that. Rather than look at 2 letters and infer from those.Given how astray those two letters have led you here (export that thought to other Lawful countries - is Rahadoum opposed to innovation, or Oprak?), I think that’s a feature, not a bug. “I have to actually read the lore!” isn’t a complaint that’s gonna carry much water for me :p
Not everyone is as meticulous a student of Golarion lore as you are. I surely am not.
I tried to explain some of what I saw in Lawful and how it would interact with change and innovation and I clearly failed at it.
But the alignment grid, and especially the Law-Chaos axis, brought me insight in some RL situations I lived through and helped me better understand people and culture.
It was fun while it lasted.
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Is Hell well known for its love of innovation then ?
It is. Phlegethon is an entire layer that is focused on the production of weapons, including R&D of new ones.