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I want to put some actual numbers to the Kineticist, and the best class I could think of for comparison is the Inventor.
Level 6
Inventor with a composite short bow with Modular Head, Megavolt, Gadget Specialist, Searing Restoration, and Explosive Leap
vs
Dual Gate: Air & Fire with Storm Spiral, Soothing Wind, Burning Jet, Air Cushion, and whatever you want at 2nd level.
Both have a 3d12 AoE they can pretty much use once a fight. Both have healing, Both have great mobility for exploration mode. Both have a rando utility option. Both have modular damage types. What do they get that the other one doesn't?
Inventor
Overdrive adding roughly 3 damage to every hit. (Sometimes you'll fail this check, sometimes you'll crit succeed.)
More skills from Intelligence.
Propulsive (probably +1 damage at most this level.)
Gets expert attacks 2 levels early (god I hope that doesn't survive the play test).
Kineticist
Range increment flexibility, which can translate to some coin saved on runes.
More HP from maxed Con.
Agile strikes
Better mobility
Feather fall support
Elemental Resistance (only likely to see much use while Fire is Gathered, so eh.)
I'm guessing Agile will offset propulsive, but not Overdrive ontop of that. So really you're trading 3 damage a hit or so for that range flexibility and better utility. (I can't think of a Gadget I'd rather have than at will feather fall, but I could be forgetting some.)
The Inventor's damage edge increases as you level up with higher Overdrive numbers and Offensive Boost, and even your AoE scales faster. However, the utility feats get significantly better for the Kinecist. I just don't see a way for them to ever close the damage gap.
The Inventor's damage compares pretty well to most other ranged characters, I think. Rogues are the most comparable but I will probably get sneak attack less often than the Inventor gets Overdrive.
So I think all the Kinecist really needs is small buff to their elemental blast damage to feel competitive. It can even be a conditional buff. Overflow damage buffs could help too, but so many of those have riders that I'm not sure they should be. I'm pretty happy with the blast as the bread and butter and Overflows being more situational.
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Thanks for taking efforts on this honestly.
It's appreciated.
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No problem! This is the best apples to apples I could come up with. Part of this is to try and calibrate expectations. At will blasting is never gonna be comparable to melee martials damage for the same reasons archery isn't. We are really only a few points behind the curve if they give us expert at 5th.
A melee range blaster could theoretically do more damage, but I'm not sure that is what anyone's picturing when they ask for a dedicated blaster.
I'd love it if I could melee blast without provoking
I'd love it if I could melee blast without provoking
Take Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
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I'd love it if I could melee blast without provokingTake Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.
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I'd love it if I could melee blast without provokingTake Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, one some elements hit harder to way harder, and is compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
My group plays with free archetype so that is indeed an option. I'm ok with giving up ranged flexibility.
Though it speaks to the playtest when I'm better off with a bludgeoning bastard sword of earth to do damage than my blast feats.
Could be good enough for a tank though.
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.
I think, since they rarely come into the playtest to explain how things should work and to clarify things that are confusing, the best thing to do is to run the class the way to imagine it should work.
Since I don't think a ranged blast with your elemental weapon out makes you lose that weapon any more than doing a ranged blast with normal gathering makes you lose the element you gathered. Elemental Blast is not an overflow ability, so you're just emitting a fire burst from your fire sword, or whatever.
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Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.I think, since they rarely come into the playtest to explain how things should work and to clarify things that are confusing, the best thing to do is to run the class the way to imagine it should work.
Since I don't think a ranged blast with your elemental weapon out makes you lose that weapon any more than doing a ranged blast with normal gathering makes you lose the element you gathered. Elemental Blast is not an overflow ability, so you're just emitting a fire burst from your fire sword, or whatever.
Especially important for a playtest to run rules as written as well.
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.I'd love it if I could melee blast without provokingTake Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
You see a lot of martials making ranged attacks with a melee weapon out without changing weapons?
You want range just fire an overflow and regather. Only range limit the weapon puts on is on blasts.
If you're dual element you can do it faster because they get a feat that let's them gather and fire a blast in one action.
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.I'd love it if I could melee blast without provokingTake Elemental Weapon. Regular strikes made with it don't provoke, on some elements it hits anywhere from harder to way harder, and it'll be compatible with feats from outside the class like Power Attack and such.
Don't think that's true. You can't use it as a thrown weapon, and it gets expended on an overflow, but nothing prevents you from using it for regular impulse, eg blast.
Removing the two hand restriction in melee would also be pretty respectable for damage. Edit: I suppose this could get problematic if you switched between a two handed for a first strike and then agile blasts for the follow up.
But yeah a class inspired by the martial artists of Avatar provoking in melee feels wrong.
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Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.I think, since they rarely come into the playtest to explain how things should work and to clarify things that are confusing, the best thing to do is to run the class the way to imagine it should work.
Since I don't think a ranged blast with your elemental weapon out makes you lose that weapon any more than doing a ranged blast with normal gathering makes you lose the element you gathered. Elemental Blast is not an overflow ability, so you're just emitting a fire burst from your fire sword, or whatever.
I think Graystone (and please correct me if I am wrong) meant that a ranged strike with an elemental melee weapon would result in a gather thrown away. As far as ranged blasts, my reading of that feat is the same as yours.
Which...hmmm. I didn't consider that dynamic; that feat might be more interesting than I'd given it credit for.
I misread, disregard. No ranged attacks at all if you have a melee weapon.
...I want to put some actual numbers to the Kineticist, and the best class I could think of for comparison is the Inventor.
Level 6
Inventor with a composite short bow with Modular Head, Megavolt, Gadget Specialist, Searing Restoration, and Explosive Leapvs
Dual Gate: Air & Fire with Storm Spiral, Soothing Wind, Burning Jet, Air Cushion, and whatever you want at 2nd level.Both have a 3d12 AoE they can pretty much use once a fight. Both have healing, Both have great mobility for exploration mode. Both have a rando utility option. Both have modular damage types. What do they get that the other one doesn't?
Inventor
Overdrive adding roughly 3 damage to every hit. (Sometimes you'll fail this check, sometimes you'll crit succeed.)
More skills from Intelligence.
Propulsive (probably +1 damage at most this level.)
Gets expert attacks 2 levels early (god I hope that doesn't survive the play test).Kineticist
Range increment flexibility, which can translate to some coin saved on runes.
More HP from maxed Con.
Agile strikes
Better mobility
Feather fall support
Elemental Resistance (only likely to see much use while Fire is Gathered, so eh.)I'm guessing Agile will offset propulsive, but not Overdrive ontop of that. So really you're trading 3 damage a hit or so for that range flexibility and better utility. (I can't think of a Gadget I'd rather have than at will feather fall, but I could be forgetting some.)
The Inventor's damage edge increases as you level up with higher Overdrive numbers and Offensive Boost, and even your AoE scales faster. However, the utility feats get significantly better for the Kinecist. I just don't see a way for them to ever close the damage gap.
The Inventor's damage compares pretty well to most other ranged characters, I think. Rogues are the most comparable but I will probably get sneak attack less often than the Inventor gets Overdrive.
So I think all the Kinecist really needs is small buff to their
You are normally so math heavy. Bring it.
Why are we giving Propulsive only to the Inventor? Earth Kineticists can get it on their ranged Blast. It feels silly to spend 14gp on something we're counting as part of the Inventor's math but not grabbing it for free on the Kineticist.
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It can also be used for Elemental Blasts or standard Strikes (provided they’re melee blasts or Strikes if you choose a melee weapon or ranged blasts or Strikes if you choose a ranged weapon).I think this is what they meant by you lose ranged. You can use it for Impulses that are not Blasts, but you can't use it for ranged Blasts if you picked a melee weapon.
Yep, just saw that and was coming to correct my post. That did seem too good to be true.
Why are we giving Propulsive only to the Inventor? Earth Kineticists can get it on their ranged Blast. It feels silly to spend 14gp on something we're counting as part of the Inventor's math but not grabbing it for free on the Kineticist.Probably because this comparison was Fire + Air.
I'm aware of the elements chosen. I still think it's going to throw off any comparison to credit one class with purchased gear when the other can get the equivalent at no cost.
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I disagree. We are way behind in damage potential.
You're behind literally 3 points at this level. You can call that "way behind" if you like but you still just need a 3 point buff to be dead even, and then something to scale up as you level. You could literally just add the Stoke Element buff as an always active thing and you'd be right there, or so close your advantages with range can make up the difference.
It can also be used for Elemental Blasts or standard Strikes (provided they’re melee blasts or Strikes if you choose a melee weapon or ranged blasts or Strikes if you choose a ranged weapon).I think this is what they meant by you lose ranged. You can use it for Impulses that are not Blasts, but you can't use it for ranged Blasts if you picked a melee weapon.
Yep, that was my point: thanks for posting it.
I'm aware of the elements chosen. I still think it's going to throw off any comparison to credit one class with purchased gear when the other can get the equivalent at no cost.Why are we giving Propulsive only to the Inventor? Earth Kineticists can get it on their ranged Blast. It feels silly to spend 14gp on something we're counting as part of the Inventor's math but not grabbing it for free on the Kineticist.Probably because this comparison was Fire + Air.
The kineticist will have purchased hand wraps by now too, and the extra cost of a the shortbow isn't significant at this level. And, actually, the Inventor doesn't need to pay for it because the composite shortbow is a level 0 weapon and came free as the innovation.
If it requires a specific element then the comparison is fair.I'm aware of the elements chosen. I still think it's going to throw off any comparison to credit one class with purchased gear when the other can get the equivalent at no cost.Why are we giving Propulsive only to the Inventor? Earth Kineticists can get it on their ranged Blast. It feels silly to spend 14gp on something we're counting as part of the Inventor's math but not grabbing it for free on the Kineticist.Probably because this comparison was Fire + Air.
Shouldn't any comparison be using the closest possible characters the two class chassis can make? I wouldn't see much point in comparing a Starlit Span Magus to a 2h Barbarian, so why not compare how well both of these classes perform when using a Propulsive offense?
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For the record, I compared the shortbow to the fire blast because both have 60 ft range increments and deal a d6. I think the community undervalues range increments, personally, but it is pretty clear by now that Paizo attaches a certain value to them which will always be factored into weapon choice. Earth and Water are more comparable to thrown weapons like Tridents, where the shorter range allows for higher damage. And wind takes it in the opposite direction, much to the chagrin of many people.
Edit: I'll note propulsive is not a huge contributer here. Most archer inventors need to max Dex and Int which only leaves one boost in Str until level 5. If anything, the deadly dice probably gives the shortbow more of an advantage here and is valued roughly equal to agile, at least in melee. The +1 damage from propulsive matters a lot less than Overdrive.
It isn't like we undervalue ranged increments. It's more like it's difficult to put it in practice due size. Even AP maps usually aren't larger than just than 20 cells in each side. The biggest usually about 40x40 one that represents a full floor of a dungeon full os small rooms and corridors.
So except from open area flying situations the weapon with ranges larger than 60ft (12 cells) rarely receive a distance benefit.
IMO it's the Paizo designers that over value them. But even they don't do big maps to use it due technical limitations for maps size impression.
Sounds like ap lack variety at this point and it's limiting design space.
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It isn't like we undervalue ranged increments. It's more like it's difficult to put it in practice due size. Even AP maps usually aren't larger than just than 20 cells in each side. The biggest usually about 40x40 one that represents a full floor of a dungeon full os small rooms and corridors.
So except from open area flying situations the weapon with ranges larger than 60ft (12 cells) rarely receive a distance benefit.
Regardless of whether you're right or wrong, it is abundantly clear that Paizo values range increments quite highly. You can see it on the page of blasts. The shorter the range, the higher the damage. And this pattern holds true across weapons, as well.
So while you can argue the point, I wouldn't bother during the playtest because we can pretty conclusively say that principle won't change. If we want to have a realistic conversation about what the final product will look like, we need apples to apples for the range increments. It doesn't make sense to compare 20ft earth blasts to 60ft shortbows, or 120 ft air blasts.
The real reason to keep damage low from really long range attacks is to remove the problem of "in an infinite open field with no cover anywhere, a character with a long range attack who is also very good at moving will win" by making it unappealing.
I do not know how you fix the "some people will see 120' and think this is broken" and "some people will see 1d4" and think "I prefer something else" issue. Since Air was the one in PF1 with really long range (just not less damage.)
Stoke element has a action tax and is either every other turn or one attack a turn take your pick and that’s just with elemental blast anything that two action or more is absolutely every other turn. Welcome to action taxI disagree. We are way behind in damage potential.You're behind literally 3 points at this level. You can call that "way behind" if you like but you still just need a 3 point buff to be dead even, and then something to scale up as you level. You could literally just add the Stoke Element buff as an always active thing and you'd be right there, or so close your advantages with range can make up the difference.
Yeah, I know how it currently works. I'm saying you could make that a buff you just always have on, no actions involved, and the damage would be where it should probably be.
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Stoke element has a action tax and is either every other turn or one attack a turn take your pick and that’s just with elemental blast anything that two action or more is absolutely every other turn. Welcome to action taxI disagree. We are way behind in damage potential.You're behind literally 3 points at this level. You can call that "way behind" if you like but you still just need a 3 point buff to be dead even, and then something to scale up as you level. You could literally just add the Stoke Element buff as an always active thing and you'd be right there, or so close your advantages with range can make up the difference.We aren't "3 points behind"
You're simply calculating Overdrive into it. Have you looked at our overflow attacks, at all? They are all very weak due to low dc on top of low dmg dice.
Overflow is not relevant to comparing strike to strike. If I was using an Overflow, I'd be comparing it to Megavolt. Which at this level deal exactly the same damage.
So AoE to AoE, the two deal the same damage. You look at single target to single target, the Inventor pulls exactly 3 points a head. Or 5 points if they critically succeed, and falling behind if they fail to Overdrive that round.
You seem to be under the impression the class is meant to use saving throws for single target damage. They're not. That is what the blast is for. That's why you get martial level weapon proficiency in it, while the Class DC remains sub caster.
If its always on might as well just make it Con to damage and you will have effectively the same bonus for regular blasts.
(Should also not cost a feat as that would just be a feat tax).
Sure, or that too. It doesn't matter. The point is neither of those numbers is especially large and that's all you need to give the class equal damage to a ranged martial.
People keep calling for these really drastic changes when if you just moved the needle ever so slightly, you're as good as any martial for single target damage.
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Megavolt deals 3d12 dmg at level 6 with two action investment.
Air gets something similar but requires 4 actions.
It maxes out at 9d12
Megavolt maxes out at 10d12, uses 2 actions. But only once per combat.
You're essentially sacrificing actions for unlimited uses.
Yes, I know. That's why I'm using them as comparable abilities. They are both essentially once an encounter feats. You could cycle Overflows, if you wanted to, because using a gather then two strikes is a perfectly fine turn. But I think unless they're contributing some aspect of battlefield control or hitting multiple targets then triple striking is the going to be stronger.
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Water has sweep on its melee ability which is better than forceful so you can't just compare the ranged abilities and determine the "value" of one specific element.
I think it is a mistake to jump into conversations about the elemental blast ability with comments about overflow and it is really muddling any lasting conversation about the value of blasts.
The playtest Kineticist has more feats focused on blasting than the inventor does on their weapon specifically. The thing is, the Kineticist feats that interact with blast are primarily about making more attacks against multiple enemies, so they don't factor that well into conversations about single target damage.
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The thing about "the Kineticist is about 2-4 damage low" sounds right to me since one of the strange things about the class is that almost everybody else gets to add a stat in some capacity to damage or gets some sort of damage bonus to their attacks (since they're weapons that usually add str or half strength to damage) or something that adds static damage (inventor's Overdrive; precision damage for Rangers, Swashbucklers, Investigators, etc.; even the Gunslinger's +1 combined with getting the most out of weapon spec.)
If you were to add a static modifier to kinetic blasts, you'd probably run into a problem with earth blasts being overtuned since they also get propulsive. But if you just added Con to blast damage (like cantrips) and replaced propulsive on Earth blasts with something else that's useful, I think that would work.
The thing about "the Kineticist is about 2-4 damage low" sounds right to me since one of the strange things about the class is that almost everybody else gets to add a stat in some capacity to damage or gets some sort of damage bonus to their attacks (since they're weapons that usually add str or half strength to damage) or something that adds static damage (inventor's Overdrive; precision damage for Rangers, Swashbucklers, Investigators, etc.; even the Gunslinger's +1 combined with getting the most out of weapon spec.)
If you were to add a static modifier to kinetic blasts, you'd probably run into a problem with earth blasts being overtuned since they also get propulsive. But if you just added Con to blast damage (like cantrips) and replaced propulsive on Earth blasts with something else that's useful, I think that would work.
They have access to kinetic auras which can add flat damage to multiple creatures a round. They just aren’t tied to their Strike action.
At lower levels they require some coordination, but that’s pretty easy once you get it down.
The thing about "the Kineticist is about 2-4 damage low" sounds right to me since one of the strange things about the class is that almost everybody else gets to add a stat in some capacity to damage or gets some sort of damage bonus to their attacks (since they're weapons that usually add str or half strength to damage) or something that adds static damage (inventor's Overdrive; precision damage for Rangers, Swashbucklers, Investigators, etc.; even the Gunslinger's +1 combined with getting the most out of weapon spec.)
If you were to add a static modifier to kinetic blasts, you'd probably run into a problem with earth blasts being overtuned since they also get propulsive. But if you just added Con to blast damage (like cantrips) and replaced propulsive on Earth blasts with something else that's useful, I think that would work.
They have access to kinetic auras which can add flat damage to multiple creatures a round. They just aren’t tied to their Strike action.
At lower levels they require some coordination, but that’s pretty easy once you get it down.
Kinetic Auras are a interesting way to improve the average damage but it's too complex and specific element dependent.
Sea Glass Guardian isn't really an additional but an interesting alternative/complement to paladin's Retributive Strike. Because it damages the aggressors opponents per attack but it damage isn't too good specially for a lvl 14 Impulse. Is more a reaction-like counter than real an additional damage source. But still interesting. Could be useful against alone bosses with multiple attacks because the mostly other auras.
Winter’s Clutch it's a good and simple cold damage aura that hurts every creature that enters on it. Does 1 dmg per level per round that a creature enter/stays in it. It's stronger than Sea Glass Guardian and didn't requires that opponent to do damage. Also gives some difficult terrain.
Desert Shimmer this is an interesting aura that does damage than Winter's Clutch but turns all creatures inside of it at same time that does some fire damage. The damage itself isn't that good but the conceal effect is and you aren unaffected by it.
Crowned In Tempest’s Fury is also a good aura. Gives a good damage but not better than Winter’s Clutch, it's main advantage is that it's also add a d12 extra eletricity damage to you Air Elemental Blasts and allows you to fly without having Wings of Air (economizing an Impulse feat) but it's a end game Overflow Impulse Feat, it's requirements feels too higher to such level of benefits (it's remember too much the Fiery Body benefits but Fiery Body is a lvl 7 spell).
The main problem of damage auras also is that range is short (forcing the Kineticist to almost fight at melee range) and affects your allies. Even taking the care to avoid them you still create a "non-enter area" that's will harm their movement options too. The offensive auras just becomes really useful in mid game starting from lvl 8 when you buy Aura Shaping. Before it you will probably stays in more supportive auras.
But I admit, specially for Winter’s Clutch, auras is a way to improve the Kineticist DPR damage. But I still think that the class still need a less complex and more agnostic source of extra damage and the Crowned In Tempest’s Fury remembers me that Overflows Impulses still need to be improved.