Can a Half-Elf Sorcerer be better than a Wizard?

[Minigiant]

I have always been told that in a vacuum and a theoretical world, that Wizards and their fellow peer fully prepared casters are Tier 1, and Sorcerers and their compatriot full spontaneous casters are Tier 1.5.

I have also seen that there are ways to bring Sorcerers etc up to be on this esoteric level.

How do you do that?

What follows is my thoughts and ramblings and ultimately I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Race: Half-Elf
I think this is the best choice for 2 reasons. The first being Elf Blood which lets you grab the Human Sorcerer FCB for more spells known, and the second is PARAGON SURGE.

Paragon Surge
A combination of Shapechanger Bloodline, Emergency Attunement , and Expanded Arcana should give the Sorcerer access to EVERY Arcane Spell as needed

False Priest
Being able to use Divine items without expending them gives you even MORE spells

Shadow Spells
A high risk high reward strategy but, boosting their DC boosts the DC of the spells they are imitating, and gives you even more spells on demand.

Bloodline: Arcane
Archetype: False Priest

FEATS
1 - Skill Focus (Disguise) *Free Feat Tax
1 - Spell Focus (Illusion)
3 - Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) *Feat Tax
5 - Solid Shadows
7 - Emergency Attunement
9 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger)
11 - *Metamagic*
13 - Quicken Magic
15 - Spell Perfection

It is all just theorycrafting, would love to hear what you think

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you are rating a spell caster based on being able to access more spells then Wizards are not the top tier, clerics and druids would be. As prepared divine casters they have access to every spell on their list. When I pull up the clerics spell list in Hero Lab, I count about 160 1st level spells on the cleric list. Now some of them are alignment specific so the cleric can only probably cast about 150 of them. I don’t think any wizard including a lich is going to have even a fraction of that in their spell book.

Those saying that Wizard can access all spells are forgetting they have to actually acquire spells. A wizard gets 2 spells added to their spell books per level past first. Anything more than that they have to trade, buy steal or invent. Other than the ones that a wizard invents any spell he acquires is subject to availability. It’s kind of hard to purchase or steal a spell that is not available. Realistically a wizard is probably going to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 spells of each spell level in their book. The lower-level spells will probably have more than that, and the higher-level spells will probably have fewer. Even that is probably being fairly generous.

Compare that to a sorcerer. According to the chart a sorcerer can learn up to 5 spells per spell plus their bloodline spell to bring that up to 6. A human (or half elf) FCB brings that up to 8 per spell level. The feat Expanded Arcana can add 2 more to bring that total up to 10 spells known per spell level. There are also magic items that allow a sorcerer to gain more spells known. So, the Wizards advantage is actually not a great as it seems.

Sorcerers are also a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. UMD can be used to use scrolls of spells that are not on your class spell list. This opens up the possibility of the sorcerer casting spells from other lists.

It seems to me that the idea that sorcerers are less versatile than wizards is greatly exaggerated. Don’t get me wrong, the well-prepared wizard is incredibly effective, but so is a well-prepared sorcerer. What it is really going to come down to is who has access to greater resources.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say the primary advantage of a wizard is not how much spells he could know, but that he gets each new spell level one level earlier than the sorcerer does. Realistically, most wizard players just don't change their spell selection all that much on a daily basis.

That and some of the school powers are just very good, such as the evoker's energy swap, conjurer's teleport, and diviner's foresight. And finally, having a hoard of skill points.

Minigiant wrote:

Sorcerers and their compatriot full spontaneous casters are Tier 1.5.

I'm not sure where you get this from, but I've never heard of partial tiers before. Sorcerers are generally considered Tier 2 (and literally everything in tier 2 is a full spontaneous caster), and tier 1.5 does not exist.

[IluzryMage]

Minigiant wrote:

I have always been told that in a vacuum and a theoretical world, that Wizards and their fellow peer fully prepared casters are Tier 1, and Sorcerers and their compatriot full spontaneous casters are Tier 1.5.

I have also seen that there are ways to bring Sorcerers etc up to be on this esoteric level.

How do you do that?

What follows is my thoughts and ramblings and ultimately I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Race: Half-Elf
I think this is the best choice for 2 reasons. The first being Elf Blood which lets you grab the Human Sorcerer FCB for more spells known, and the second is PARAGON SURGE.

Paragon Surge
A combination of Shapechanger Bloodline, Emergency Attunement , and Expanded Arcana should give the Sorcerer access to EVERY Arcane Spell as needed

False Priest
Being able to use Divine items without expending them gives you even MORE spells

Shadow Spells
A high risk high reward strategy but, boosting their DC boosts the DC of the spells they are imitating, and gives you even more spells on demand.

Bloodline: Arcane
Archetype: False Priest

FEATS
1 - Skill Focus (Disguise) *Free Feat Tax
1 - Spell Focus (Illusion)
3 - Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) *Feat Tax
5 - Solid Shadows
7 - Emergency Attunement
9 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger)
11 - *Metamagic*
13 - Quicken Magic
15 - Spell Perfection

It is all just theorycrafting, would love to hear what you think

As the person who wrote the shadow spell guide and the sorc guide...empathetically yes. The False Priest Sorc is imo the strongest caster in the game if built correctly, because it can potentially access the wizard, cleric, druid, and shaman lists all at once, and ALWAYS has them prepared so long as you have the item, which is the most tier 0 character possible.

If you were going to do this AND shadow spells though, I'd suggest ditching the shapechanger bloodline cheese, and leaning into shadowspell DC for your first 3 feats with spell focus, deific obedient to mallatalah, and then greater spell focus or some other feat to make it that much harder to resist.

[Minigiant]

IluzryMage wrote:

As the person who wrote the shadow spell guide and the sorc guide

I would love a link to the Shadow guide (I already have the Sorcerer one)

IluzryMage wrote:

The False Priest Sorc is imo the strongest caster in the game if built correctly, because it can potentially access the wizard, cleric, druid, and shaman lists all at once, and ALWAYS has them prepared so long as you have the item

Which item would that be? I assume you mean the right Scroll rather than an item to swap your spells

[IluzryMage]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QNlMsNANJtFLIAAVUUzZS1UKz6eb2dkMbTGYDil Mw_M/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw - Shadow Spell Guide

And the item would be your scrolls yeah, hopefully carried in like a spellbook or binder or something.

[MrCharisma]

Kurald Galain wrote:

I'd say the primary advantage of a wizard is not how much spells he could know, but that he gets each new spell level one level earlier than the sorcerer does.

This.

I've seen people argue that Schrodinger's Wizard can have the perfect spell, but in practice if the perfect spell takes 15 minutes to prepare then the Sorcerer has the Edge. Realistically you only need 2-3 good spells of each spell level and you'll be fine. Even if you need a specific spell occasionally - that's what scrolls are for.

The thing that gives Wizards, Clerics and Druids their edge is that at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17 they have access to a level of magic that no one else can even imitate.

(Also I don't really hold to the usual tier system that most people use. My Occultist runs rings around the Sorcerer in our party.).

[Mark Hoover 330]

Wanna be a full arcane caster and have the perfect spell for every occasion? Four syllables: Con Sum A Bles

A 10th level sorcerer w/a 20 Cha has 7 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells, with another 6 4th level & 3 5th level spells per day. They know 5/4/3/2/1 spell(s) at those respective levels. 1-4 decent "attack" spells (spells that you need your full CL and casting stat to beat a foe's defenses with) per spell level ensures you're contributing to the party's success.

That leaves you a couple low level spells known for utilities, offensive/defensive buff spells or the other things folks rely on their arcane full casters for in adventuring parties. Still, that doesn't leave a lot of variety though right?

Scrolls and wands. Pick these up in bulk any time you can. At low levels/low WBL I know you're hurting for resources, but by about level 4-5, unless you're playing Carrion Crown or another AP that skimps on treasure or something, you should be able to start picking these up.

If a spell is on your list, you can cast a scroll of it. And hey, you're high charisma as a sorcerer right? Think about a cohort that scribes scrolls, or even just using the Contacts optional rule to have NPCs willing to spare a scroll or three once in a while.

Unless your GM is skimping on treasure or the GM is not giving the PCs any time to rest and resupply in settlements, there's no reason your arcane full caster shouldn't have an accordion file folder full of scrolls or a bandolier of wands ready to go.

[Kurald Galain]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Wanna be a full arcane caster and have the perfect spell for every occasion? Four syllables: Con Sum A Bles

Indeed, this is the straightforward way to access (almost) anything you need from the wizard/sorcerer list.

The issue with Razmiran Priest is that in theory it's great that you can draw spells from so many lists, but in practice almost all the best spells are already on the sorcerer list. What would really help this thread is examples of cleric spells that are actually better than one-level-higher sorcerer spells.

I'd say Raise Dead is a good example, but otherwise I'm not having a lot of ideas here.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Kurald Galain wrote:

The issue with Razmiran Priest is that in theory it's great that you can draw spells from so many lists, but in practice almost all the best spells are already on the sorcerer list. What would really help this thread is examples of cleric spells that are actually better than one-level-higher sorcerer spells.

OMG yes, this! The single biggest diff between Arcane full caster lists and Divine is healing and restorative spells, along with some of the undead creation/controls. Otherwise, they both have offensive/defensive buffs, battlefield controls, direct attacks, and so on. Arcane casters have more "utility" spells; ways to know info, understand languages, open doors, turn invisible, fly or take on other movement types and so on, but that's about it.

Changing gears a tad, what happens when a party doesn't have a full arcane caster with a massive, diverse number of spells for utility situations? I mean, imagine if your party was a paladin, an arsenal chaplain warpriest, a tomb breaker bard and your vanilla sorcerer.

Well, if the sorcerer doesn't have a huge number of consumables, its likely that you'll have to make do without Invisibility, or Summon Monster III, or Detect Thoughts, and still other more "utility" spells that a wizard might take 15 minutes to study up out of their book. Now you'll have to...

Have the bard use their Stealth and Perception skills and scout ahead, rely on either the warpriest or paladin using Sense Motive to suss out lies, and so on. It is not impossible to do without the glut of Arcane spells that are out there, it just means you have to go back and use the generic skills and abilities those spells simulate. More than that, there is an element of tension; if you Invisibility, it is extremely rare that someone spots your scout but if you're relying on the Stealth skill, suddenly you care about Concealment and Cover, lighting in the area, the senses of your foes and so on.

[Dragonchess Player]

The difference between a sorcerer's and a wizard's effectiveness in play is not that great, most of the time.

A sorcerer that fills their spells known mostly with benchmark spells and spells with wide applicability or multiple applications, rather than overdoing it on thematic selections, can do quite well. Basically, a sorcerer's effectiveness range has less variance than a wizard.

The spell selection of a wizard (like all prepared casters), however, can be tailored to the expected circumstances; sometimes, with adequate research/advance scouting, to the point of having "the perfect spell" for most situations being encountered. Granted, it is seldom the case that a wizard will always have just the right spell in just the right amount prepared (Schrodinger's wizard). Personally, I usually have two or three different preparation lists for prepared casters that may be further tailored to expected scenarios: dungeon (mostly short-range, constricted sight-lines), town (social encounters, minimize collateral damage), and wilderness (longer ranges, more mobility/open terrain). Basically, a wizard can be more effective than a sorcerer if they are able to tailor their prepared spells to the scenario.

As far as learning spells go, unless the GM is heavily restricting the wizard's opportunities (lack of down time, never find enemy spell books, NPC wizards don't allow PC wizard to copy spells for a fee), a wizard will "know" more spells than a sorcerer. Also, a wizard can readily scribe scrolls of several spells that are really useful in some circumstances but normally are not worth preparing in a spell slot (like water breathing).

Now, whether or not a person wants to put the extra effort in making a wizard reach that higher bar of effectiveness... is a decision that each person should make for themself, based on their preferences, the campaign, and the rest of the group.

[Blackmill]

In a campaign, it depends in part on the DM. For instance, a DM can make encounters and objectives that reward the wizard's knowledge of more spells. Or they can choose not to. The DM's decisions regarding scroll, wand, and wondrous item scarcity also matter as people have mentioned.

Regarding actual mechanics and builds, beyond what's been said, it's worth noting that the Pact Wizard and Exploiter Wizard archetypes are both fairly powerful. Counterspelling as an immediate action is potentially very strong, and I don't know of any way for a sorcerer to do this.

In the abstract, I view high level wizards as stronger because they know more spells, and therefore can do more (my headcannon is high level scrolls are very rare). So if I wanted to feel like I was playing a powerful character, I would probably choose a wizard, regardless of whether a sorcerer would be mechanically stronger for the actual campaign.

[Minigiant]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

The issue with Razmiran Priest is that in theory it's great that you can draw spells from so many lists, but in practice almost all the best spells are already on the sorcerer list. What would really help this thread is examples of cleric spells that are actually better than one-level-higher sorcerer spells.

OMG yes, this! The single biggest diff between Arcane full caster lists and Divine is healing and restorative spells, along with some of the undead creation/controls.

This is what first made me start looking at/considering the Razmiran Priest, the desire for an Arcane Healer. I played a Wizard version once and had a lot of fun, so started to look at other options.

[MrCharisma]

Well the Heal spell is another obvious choice.

It's not quite arcane, but someone made a list of all the healing and condition removal options available to the Occultist that was better than I thought. Though that might have been you Minigiant, which would obviously make this a less useful suggestion =P

[Minigiant]

IluzryMage wrote:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QNlMsNANJtFLIAAVUUzZS1UKz6eb2dkMbTGYDil Mw_M/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw - Shadow Spell Guide

And the item would be your scrolls yeah, hopefully carried in like a spellbook or binder or something.

I cannot get the link to work unfortunately

MrCharisma wrote:

Well the Heal spell is another obvious choice.

It's not quite arcane, but someone made a list of all the healing and condition removal options available to the Occultist that was better than I thought. Though that might have been you, Minigiant, which would obviously make this a less useful suggestion =P

This might be the Thread you are referring too (But I was looking at just general healing spells rather than a specific classes spells

[MrCharisma]

Ah ... no it was THIS THREAD (and it wasn't you it wss Gisher, I just vaguely remembered the avatar, and both your avatars are beard-y men looking down and right).

Anyway it might have some good options for you to look at. If you want to try an Occultist healer it's obviously useful, but it could also give some advice for what kind of spells and class abilities to look out for that might be less-obvious but still useful.

[Arkham Joker]

Here's a Sorceror question for you experts...

A Celestial/Empyreal Sorceror wants to buy an arcane scroll - being that they are WIS based, how does this work?!

[Minigiant]

Arkham Joker wrote:

Here's a Sorceror question for you experts...

A Celestial/Empyreal Sorceror wants to buy an arcane scroll - being that they are WIS based, how does this work?!

They buy an Arcane Scroll. They are still arcane casters and still use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Their UMD will be lower, but it works just the same.

[Kurald Galain]

Minigiant wrote:

This is what first made me start looking at/considering the Razmiran Priest, the desire for an Arcane Healer. I played a Wizard version once and had a lot of fun, so started to look at other options.

That's a nice combo; and funny because lore-wise I wouldn't expect followers of Razmir to be overly concerned with healing others. A witch, or bard, or samsaran wizard could also do that.

MrCharisma wrote:

Well the Heal spell is another obvious choice.

Yes it is. But a sorcerer with a handful of extra healing spells is not markedly more powerful than a regular sorcerer, and that clearly doesn't mean it's "tier zero" now.

Looking at the top post, the biggest power boost his character gets is from Shadow shenanigans, not from the Razmiran priest. But that doesn't make him stronger than a wizard, since a wizard can mostly use the same tricks.

[Arkham Joker]

Minigiant wrote:

They buy an Arcane Scroll. They are still arcane casters and still use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Their UMD will be lower, but it works just the same.

But they wouldn't have to make a UMD roll to emulate an ability score?

[Minigiant]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Minigiant wrote:

This is what first made me start looking at/considering the Razmiran Priest, the desire for an Arcane Healer. I played a Wizard version once and had a lot of fun, so started to look at other options.

That's a nice combo; and funny because lore-wise I wouldn't expect followers of Razmir to be overly concerned with healing others. A witch, or bard, or samsaran wizard could also do that.

Yes I played a Samasaran Pact Wizard with the Healing Patron

[IluzryMage]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/vttca3/iluzrys_guide_to_sh adow_spells_and_mirror_magic/

Try this, it links to the reddit thread which should have a working link.

[Carrauntoohil]

Minigiant wrote:

IluzryMage wrote:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QNlMsNANJtFLIAAVUUzZS1UKz6eb2dkMbTGYDil Mw_M/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw - Shadow Spell Guide

And the item would be your scrolls yeah, hopefully carried in like a spellbook or binder or something.

I cannot get the link to work unfortunately

Seems to work for me if I remove the space between 'Dil' and 'Mw_M'

[Kasoh]

Arkham Joker wrote:

Minigiant wrote:

They buy an Arcane Scroll. They are still arcane casters and still use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Their UMD will be lower, but it works just the same.

But they wouldn't have to make a UMD roll to emulate an ability score?

The archetype feature that replaced their casting stat replaced their casting stat for all purposes. So, if they have sufficient wisdom, its the same as having sufficient charisma.

[Azothath]

the simple answer (to the title) is No.

it is hard to beat what the Wizard(specialist) class does for its built in costs (which are high). The generalist Wizard class is just behind.

[SheepishEidolon]

Quote:

Can a Half-Elf Sorcerer be better than a Wizard?

Totally. If the former is more fun for you (and doesn't impair the others' fun), it's better. The power level is only relevant since it's one of several things that affect your fun. In a nonlinear fashion, but that's a topic on its own.

Ok. I will show myself out. ;)

[Andostre]

Minigiant wrote:

IluzryMage wrote:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QNlMsNANJtFLIAAVUUzZS1UKz6eb2dkMbTGYDil Mw_M/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw - Shadow Spell Guide

And the item would be your scrolls yeah, hopefully carried in like a spellbook or binder or something.

I cannot get the link to work unfortunately

IluzryMage wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/vttca3/iluzrys_guide_to_sh adow_spells_and_mirror_magic/

Try this, it links to the reddit thread which should have a working link.

The Paizo boards will insert a space every 75 characters if the string is longer than that. Using the URL tags eliminates the space and this confusion.

Here is the link: Shadow Spell Guide

[Temperans]

Another reason why people generally think Prepared casters are better is that prepared metamagic is really good. Yes it does require that you spend a higher level spells from the start, but the number one thing at any level is action economy. Being able to standard action spell and then move opens up a lot more freedom (specially if you are flying or invisible). With that line of thought. There is also the fact that Wizards have 1 or 2 ways to have the advantage of being prepared, but still have access to spontaneous spells/metamagic. While spontaneous don't really have that option.

Finally, if you notice the #1 Wizard is divination (specially forsight). For the fact that it does three very important things:

1) It makes the wizard almost always act first, even in a surprise round. Needless to say but the first to cast a spell has a large advantage thanks to flat-footed and inability to respond easily. Don't understimate a guaranteed nat 20+10+Dex+misc initiative.

2) It makes the wizard much better at scrying and recognizance. Schrödinger's Wizard is usually a fallacy because its extremely unlikely for a wizard to always be prepared. But by being much better at scrying (and getting free divination spells) diviniation wizard can massively increase the number of correct spells that they can get.

3) Last and certainly not least. Once per turn they can roll a free d20 and use it at any time, that along with general fortune effects means that they have a much higher chance of actually landing the spells they want.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If the reason the Wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer is because of prepared casting than the arcanist should be even more powerful. They can prepare like a wizard and cast like a sorcerer. The fact that a wizard has to memorize each spells means an arcanist will often have more spells memorized than a wizard. If the wizard wants to memorize 2 magic missiles it takes up two of his slots, where the arcanist only uses one. This means the arcanist will have a better selection of spells than the wizard and more flexibility on what he can use. They can prepare a spell with a metamagic feat or add it as it is cast so again, they get the best of both worlds.

The school savant archetype gives the arcanist all the abilities of a school. So, if the divination school is what is making the wizard more powerful the arcanist still comes out ahead. The arcanist also gets exploits including the ability to boost his caster level or the DC of his saves by 2.

Seems to me the arcanist is actually closer to Schrödinger’s wizard than the wizard.

[Temperans]

Yes the only thing that holds Arcanist back a bit is the fact it gets delayed spellcasting and fewer prepared spells. But that is mitigated by the fact that they can manipulate the CL and DC easier than wizard and access to some great exploits.

[Kurald Galain]

Temperans wrote:

the number one thing at any level is action economy. Being able to standard action spell and then move opens up a lot more freedom (specially if you are flying or invisible).

That's a good point. A problem with the Razmiran priest is that he needs move actions to use those scroll spells in combat, and can't use metamagic on them (and casts them at minimum CL and DC). If he casts more than one, he'll probably need an additional move action to put the previous scroll away again.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If the reason the Wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer is because of prepared casting than the arcanist should be even more powerful.

The arcanist is definitely stronger than the sorcerer. However, the wizard still gets higher level spells one level early (that is, half of the game the wizard is casting spells that arcanist or sorcerer cannot access yet) and wiz has markedly more spells per day than arc. I'd say wiz and arc are pretty much tied in terms of power.

[zza ni]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Temperans wrote:

the number one thing at any level is action economy. Being able to standard action spell and then move opens up a lot more freedom (specially if you are flying or invisible).

That's a good point. A problem with the Razmiran priest is that he needs move actions to use those scroll spells in combat, and can't use metamagic on them (and casts them at minimum CL and DC). If he casts more than one, he'll probably need an additional move action to put the previous scroll away again.

so?

just get your scroll ready as a swift action.

-remember a scroll can have as many spells as you scribe onto it. my low level wizards go with 3 identical scrolls of 3 spells each (mage armor, infernal healing and grease). each scroll in it's own case then he would keep 2 on his belt and one in his backpack. (just in case a scroll get sundered etc)

[Kurald Galain]

zza ni wrote:

-remember a scroll can have as many spells as you scribe onto it.

What you're missing is that your low level wizard scribes his own scrolls, and the Razmiran priest does not scribe those divine scrolls he wants.

[zza ni]

Kurald Galain wrote:

zza ni wrote:

-remember a scroll can have as many spells as you scribe onto it.

What you're missing is that your low level wizard scribes his own scrolls, and the Razmiran priest does not scribe those divine scrolls he wants.

what you're missing is that the scroll is going to cost him the same anyway. and that was not the issue i was referring to. you were talking about action economy and i offered a 5 gp worth of an item to solve that.

if you got the cash for bought divine spells 5 gp should hardly be a problem. technically you can have as many as you can carry dangling from you.

as for having them all nicely scribed into one (or more) scroll -that's the benefit of the feat. just get the scribe scroll feat and pay for spellcaster to help you craft the scroll (paying for spellcasting service is 10Xspell level x caster level in gp. the crafter doesn't have to be the caster when crafting items)
that way you can scribe the scrolls as you like them. and it will even cost less then buying them made.

bought scroll is (25 gp)x(spell level)x(caster level). scribing is 1/2 as much so 12.5 and then the 10 per caster and spell make it (22.5 gp)x(caster level)x(spell level).

saying the wizard is well off since he has the benefit of x. that comes from a feat that the sorcerer can also take is not a real issue.

[Kurald Galain]

zza ni wrote:

the crafter doesn't have to be the caster when crafting items)

Not for wondrous items. However, the rules are explicit that "you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."

Anyway, the point was that a wizard has an action economy advantage over a sorcerer or a Razmiran priest. If the RP draws his scroll as a swift action instead of a move... then the wizard still has an action economy advantage, because he can use his swift for (e.g.) Quicken Spell. And as Temperans mentions, the number one thing at any level is action economy.

[zza ni]

Kurald Galain wrote:

zza ni wrote:

the crafter doesn't have to be the caster when crafting items)

Not for wondrous items. However, the rules are explicit that "you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."

..

for any magic crafting. the rule you mentioned just mean that you can not skip suppling the spell needed for crafting a scroll by rising the dc by 5 (hence paying for a divine caster). it still doesn't mean the crafter has to be the one casting said spell. (which btw can also be supplied by spell like abilities\scrolls\wands etc) as long as some1 cast the spell you can use it when you craft ANY magical item. some items you don't need the spells if you increase the dc by 5 but as the rule you mentioned say not for stuff like scroll scribing.

and if you really need that swift action you do what every1 else does. carry the scroll ready before the fight start. it's manageable and allowing one to cast both divine and arcane is the benefit you get for it. last i checked even a scroll scribing wizard still can't do that.

[IluzryMage]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Temperans wrote:

the number one thing at any level is action economy. Being able to standard action spell and then move opens up a lot more freedom (specially if you are flying or invisible).

That's a good point. A problem with the Razmiran priest is that he needs move actions to use those scroll spells in combat, and can't use metamagic on them (and casts them at minimum CL and DC). If he casts more than one, he'll probably need an additional move action to put the previous scroll away again.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If the reason the Wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer is because of prepared casting than the arcanist should be even more powerful.

The arcanist is definitely stronger than the sorcerer. However, the wizard still gets higher level spells one level early (that is, half of the game the wizard is casting spells that arcanist or sorcerer cannot access yet) and wiz has markedly more spells per day than arc. I'd say wiz and arc are pretty much tied in terms of power.

You are entirely correct! Which is why we want 3 levels in Pathfinder Savant and 2 Levels in Cypher Mage.

3 savant gets us some neat spells and SCROLLMASTER which lets us cast at our CL (and we can use prestigous spellcaster to get our progression back) and cyphermage gets us the swift scroll cypher lore (you dont provoke for getting your scrolls and if you move 10 feet you can draw for free!!!!!) and insightful scroll for the DC (but only a few times per day..)

There are plenty of other neat scroll tricks you can do with cyphermage too, so don't be afraid to take a few more levels (like boosting your CL even further beyond!!!)

[MrCharisma]

Kurald Galain wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Well the Heal spell is another obvious choice.

Yes it is. But a sorcerer with a handful of extra healing spells is not markedly more powerful than a regular sorcerer, and that clearly doesn't mean it's "tier zero" now.

No but that post was responding to Minigiant's post about being an arcane healer. The Heal spell definitely makes someone a better healer.

Kurald Galain wrote:

The arcanist is definitely stronger than the sorcerer. However, the wizard still gets higher level spells one level early (that is, half of the game the wizard is casting spells that arcanist or sorcerer cannot access yet) and wiz has markedly more spells per day than arc. I'd say wiz and arc are pretty much tied in terms of power.

Just to clarify this, it's 40% of the game (8/20).

At even levels prepared casters really don't have a significant benefit over spontaneous ones. Even though at even levels the Specialist Wizard gets the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer (more if they have a bonded Object) I don't really think one is superior to another. You can emulate the spam-ability of a spontaneous caster with a Bonded Object or with Wands and Staves, and you can emulate the versatility of prepared casters with Scrolls and Staves.

I DO think this gives Wizards the edge because of the early-level access, and I think it's an unnecessary nerf for spontaneous 9th level casters to be 1 level behind (except the Arcanist). I find it weird that 6th level spontaneous casters and 4th level spontaneous casters don't have the same delayed casting that their 9th level counterparts do, but that's a different rant =P

[Azothath]

don't forget;
W1) Spell Recall items are twice the price for spontaneous casters. Wealth by Level(WBL).
W2) Bonded Object means one high price item is gained at half cost (such as Amulet of Spell Mastery).(WBL)
W3) Wizard's do not need Use Magic Device as most items are on their spell list. CHA does not feed into skill points per level. (Skill)
W4) should a wizard take up crafting he gains a WBL advantage. (WBL)
W5) a wizards learned spell list is usually quite large and with an open slot he can cast a needed spell in 15min (usually an out of combat situation). There are feats to shorten the memorization time. (Casting)
W6) Wizard do have to pay to learn spells but copies are at half price. (-WBL). Stealing spellbooks is a rare event in the game and PCs tend to cry "unfair".

all the above is in the specialist wizard class, no need for archetypes or prestige classes, extra feats to make the build work, and interaction problems.

IMO this is well known and really just stirs up cries of Game Balance issues.

[Kurald Galain]

IluzryMage wrote:

You are entirely correct! Which is why we want 3 levels in Pathfinder Savant and 2 Levels in Cypher Mage.

Pathfinder Savant is a great find.

I note that it also lets you add spells from other lists to your own, just like that. This avoids the entire issue of dealing with scrolls and action economy; for the purpose of casting any spell that you want, Pathfinder Savant does it easier (and at lower level) than Razmiran Priest. Especially with Prestigious Spellcaster.

Azothath wrote:

all the above is in the specialist wizard class, no need for archetypes or prestige classes, extra feats to make the build work, and interaction problems.

I'd like to add: wizards have a private list of wizard feats ("arcane discoveries") that sorcerers can't take. There are some good picks on that list.

[Mysterious Stranger]

W3) Sorcerers have the same spell list as wizard so can use any item a wizard can without UMD. Wizard do need UMD for any other items.

W4) Sorcerers can also take crafting feats. Most Items can be made without having to know the spell by increasing the DC on the spellcraft roll

Wizards also need to spend more not just on acquiring spells, they also have to scribe them into their books. Also, a smart wizard usually has backup spell books, which can be expensive especially for a high-level caster. They also need to secure the extra spell books. All this cost money which reduces a lot of the WBL advantages wizards have. Try writing up a wizard and paying for all the spells in their books other than the free ones. Now double that for a spare set to get an idea of how much it can cost.

While taking away the wizard's spell book might be fairly rare it completely screws the character. A wizard without his spell book is a commoner with a lot of skills. A sorcerer locked up in a room can still regain his spell slots. The wizard may not always get a chance to prepare his spells. For example, if he wants to conceal the fact, he is a caster he has to find a way to avoid being seen preparing his spells.

In all honesty most GMs avoid messing with a wizard's spell book because they don’t want to be accused of being a dick. In reality they are going easy on a character for out of concern for the player getting upset. They treat the wizard easier than the players treat NPC wizards because they don’t want to upset the player. In a world where wizards are real and the fact, they need spell books is well known targeting spell books will be common. I am not just talking about thieves stealing them. There may be laws about carrying spell books and anytime anyone is arrested or captured that is going to be one of the first things checked. When a GM ignores the wizards spell book, he is artificially inflating the wizards' power.

Another factor is that sorcerers get eschew materials. This means many of the sorcerer's spells do not require material components. While the cost of a spell component pouch is trivial the ability to cast spells without components is a big advantage. There are a lot of times where a character may not be able to bring weapons; spell components would also be restricted in those situations. For example, weapons are generally not allowed when attending a royal court. In those situations, the wizard should also be stripped of his components. Other times the character may have their gear taken from them. Even finding a spell component pouch on a character is going to reveal they are a spell caster. This can often lead to situations where the sorcerer is able to cast spells where the wizard is not or allow a sorcerer to hide the fact, he is a spell caster. The more information your opponent has on you the easier you are to defeat.

[Kurald Galain]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Try writing up a wizard and paying for all the spells in their books other than the free ones.

All right. A 10th-level wizard who learns ten extra spells of each level (which in my mind is excessive, but hey) pays (15 + 60 + 135 + 240 + 375) * 10 = 8250 gold.

In the meantime, he enchants his bonded item for half price; a straightforward Amulet of Natural Armor +3 means a 9000 gold discount.

To get extra spell slots, he buys a pearl of power for the first two levels; that's 1000 + 4000 = 5000 (and I'd usually buy more of them). A sorcerer with equivalent Runestones pays 10000, so this is a 5000 gold discount.

Wizard is now (5000+9000-8250=) 5750 gold pieces ahead, so it's fair to say that yes, wizards do have a WBL advantage.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

In all honesty most GMs avoid messing with a wizard's spell book

Frankly, if a GM really wants to shut down a character, he will, regardless of class. At least for the spellbook, there are some fairly easy countermeasures, such as the Secluded Grimoire spell.

[IluzryMage]

Kurald Galain wrote:

IluzryMage wrote:

You are entirely correct! Which is why we want 3 levels in Pathfinder Savant and 2 Levels in Cypher Mage.

Pathfinder Savant is a great find.

I note that it also lets you add spells from other lists to your own, just like that. This avoids the entire issue of dealing with scrolls and action economy; for the purpose of casting any spell that you want, Pathfinder Savant does it easier (and at lower level) than Razmiran Priest. Especially with Prestigious Spellcaster.

Azothath wrote:

all the above is in the specialist wizard class, no need for archetypes or prestige classes, extra feats to make the build work, and interaction problems.

I'd like to add: wizards have a private list of wizard feats ("arcane discoveries") that sorcerers can't take. There are some good picks on that list.

Well the benefit of razimiran priest is that you can cast ANY Divine spell, not just like 10 you pick up. I would still say priest is WAY better just on the sheer variety of access you get which is insane.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If a wizard is only buying 10 extra spells, then he is not that much ahead of the sorcerer. As I pointed out there are ways for a sorcerer to gain more spells known. The 10th level human sorcerer can have 12 0 level spells, 10 1st level spells, 9 2nd level spells, 5 4th level spells, and 1 5th level spell known. To do this requires a human sorcerer with the arcane bloodline putting the FCB into extra spells known and taking expanded Arcana 3 times. This also gives the sorcerer Arcane Bond as well. This means that is the wizard wants to have a real advantage on spells known he need to purchase a lot more than 10 spells known.

Since a wizard has to memorize each spell, he wants to cast they have to either memorize multiple of the same spell which cuts down on their versatility. The 10th level wizard who wants to be able to cast 3 magic missiles has used up half his 1st level spell slots. The way around this is to purchase Pearls of power. This gives the wizard some of the flexibility of the sorcerer because he can use it to cast any spell of the appropriate level he has already cast.

The sorcerer can already cast any of his spells known so there is less need for him to spend money to gain extra spell slots. The sorcerer’s does not need the ability to cast spells he already cast, what he needs is the ability to cast a wider variety of spells. So, instead of buying Runestones of power he should be buying Pages of spell knowledge. This by the way cost the exact same thing as a pearl of power. So, for each pearl of power the wizard has the sorcerer can get another spell known. There are also other magic items like Mnemonic vestments and Rings of spell knowledge that can further expand sorcerers' spells known.

The thing to keep in mind is that a sorcerer is not a wizard. They have their own strengths and weaknesses and if you trying to build a sorcerer like a wizard it is not going to be that good. Trying to build a sorcerer that works like a wizard is foolish. What you need to do is to build the sorcerer to take advantage of their own abilities.

[Kurald Galain]

IluzryMage wrote:

Well the benefit of razimiran priest is that you can cast ANY Divine spell, not just like 10 you pick up. I would still say priest is WAY better just on the sheer variety of access you get which is insane.

So the important question is, what actual spells would you use this with, that aren't already on the sorc list and don't have a sorc equivalent? Because the only examples we've had so far are Heal and Raise Dead, and maybe the CLW line.

Unless people can give actual examples of good spells for a Razmiran priest, it strikes me that the archetype is much better on paper than in practice.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

This means that is the wizard wants to have a real advantage on spells known he need to purchase a lot more than 10 spells known.

Wait, so my example wizard has fourteen spells per spell level (10 bought, 4 from leveling; plus all cantrips) and your sorcerer has substantially fewer spells than that (six on average), so how exactly is this not an advantage?

[MrCharisma]

Kurald Galain wrote:

So the important question is, what actual spells would you use this with, that aren't already on the sorc list and don't have a sorc equivalent? Because the only examples we've had so far are Heal and Raise Dead, and maybe the CLW line.

CREATE WATER or PURIFY FOOD AND DRINK - seriously these spells have phenomenal roleplay or social implications.

BLESS, COMMAND, DIVINE FAVOR, FORBID ACTION, FUNERAL WEAPON, HIDE FROM UNDEAD, KNOW THE ENEMY, MURDEROUS COMMAND, REMOVE SICKNESS, SANCTUARY, SHIELD OF FAITH, WEAPONS AGAINST EVIL.

That's all I got from level 0 and level 1, but I only looked at the spells I already kinda knew.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I never said it was not an advantage. What I am saying is that it is not enough of an advantage to make the wizard blow away the sorcerer. The Sorcerer always has access to all his spells and has more spell slots. Then factor in the sorcerer can increase the number of spells known with magic items and the advantage shrinks even more. When you factor in the pages of spell knowledge my sorcerer can have more lower-level spells known than your wizard. 4,000 gp will give him 4 more 1st level spells for a total of 14 spells known. At that point my sorcerer knows more spells than your wizard and has access to any of them.

To really have the type of advantage people are saying the wizard has you would need to have at least twice the number of spells known that a sorcerer can get including magic items. You are seriously underestimating the cost of what it takes for a wizard to actually have the advantage you think they have. The cost of their spells is going to drain away a lot of their wealth especially when if they want backup spell books.

[IluzryMage]

MrCharisma wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

So the important question is, what actual spells would you use this with, that aren't already on the sorc list and don't have a sorc equivalent? Because the only examples we've had so far are Heal and Raise Dead, and maybe the CLW line.

CREATE WATER or PURIFY FOOD AND DRINK - seriously these spells have phenomenal roleplay or social implications.

BLESS, COMMAND, DIVINE FAVOR, FORBID ACTION, FUNERAL WEAPON, HIDE FROM UNDEAD, KNOW THE ENEMY, MURDEROUS COMMAND, REMOVE SICKNESS, SANCTUARY, SHIELD OF FAITH, WEAPONS AGAINST EVIL.

That's all I got from level 0 and level 1, but I only looked at the spells I already kinda knew.

All of these are great options but like this not only includes these spells...but spells from the inquistor that no one gets. Spells from the paladin like HOLY SWORD that no one gets. Spells from the Druid and Ranger. There is no world where you can tell me getting access to spells from every single divine spell class in the game is not good in practice. Sure you have to do a little work to get your CL up but like...its EVERY divine spell. There are more divine casters than there are arcane ones. This is REALLY REALLY GOOD.

[Kurald Galain]

MrCharisma wrote:

BLESS, COMMAND, DIVINE FAVOR, FORBID ACTION, FUNERAL WEAPON, HIDE FROM UNDEAD, KNOW THE ENEMY, MURDEROUS COMMAND, REMOVE SICKNESS, SANCTUARY, SHIELD OF FAITH, WEAPONS AGAINST EVIL.

I don't know why you're shouting now, but I find that pretty rude.

Obviously we are not looking for a list of all cleric spells that are not on the wizard list. Rather, only those that would be an effective use of one of the (few) standard combat actions for a 9th- or higher level caster.

[Kurald Galain]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

The issue with Razmiran Priest is that in theory it's great that you can draw spells from so many lists, but in practice almost all the best spells are already on the sorcerer list. What would really help this thread is examples of cleric spells that are actually better than one-level-higher sorcerer spells.

OMG yes, this! The single biggest diff between Arcane full caster lists and Divine is healing and restorative spells, along with some of the undead creation/controls. Otherwise, they both have offensive/defensive buffs, battlefield controls, direct attacks, and so on. Arcane casters have more "utility" spells; ways to know info, understand languages, open doors, turn invisible, fly or take on other movement types and so on, but that's about it.

For context, this is what we're talking about. Casting from all lists is much better in theory than in practice.