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The more I see this class discussed the fewer of its class feats I see until levels 14-20. At lower levels, Diverse Lore seems to be a staple alongside sympathetic vulnerabilities.
But mostly what I'm seeing is champion, sentinel, bard, psychic, swashbuckler and gunslinger archetypes taking up just about every other feat slot. There's also one skill monkey build using the new sleepwalker dedication that I mentioned in another thread.
For implements, tome and weapon are the only ones I see get paragon treatment with any regularity. Common combos are tome/weapon, tome/wand, tome/amulet, weapon/lantern, weapon/mirror. Amulet is a popular choice for 3rd implement as its base effect scales with level and it offers a good Reaction to use with the level 14 feat.
It's actually pretty diverse. While most builds pull from the same archetypes and follow similar patterns, you can mix and match more-or-less to your liking.
There is a fair amount of talk of taking wand to paragon because it gives infinite fireballs/lightningballs/coldballs. Also, taking regalia to paragon is INSANE for the ability to just shut down frightened/clumsy/stupified (just remove the downside of a psychic unleashing their psyche?!)
Also, while the adept ability of the chalice is pretty bad, I can see a few sticking with it until paragon for the ability to counteract just about everything under the sun. You poisoned/cursed/diseased all at the same time? Drink this YOU'RE FINE!
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The one problem with taking Wand to paragon is that you have to take the Wand implement in order to do it.
There is a fair amount of talk of taking wand to paragon because it gives infinite fireballs/lightningballs/coldballs. Also, taking regalia to paragon is INSANE for the ability to just shut down frightened/clumsy/stupified (just remove the downside of a psychic unleashing their psyche?!)
Also, while the adept ability of the chalice is pretty bad, I can see a few sticking with it until paragon for the ability to counteract just about everything under the sun. You poisoned/cursed/diseased all at the same time? Drink this YOU'RE FINE!
The issue is that paragon comes online really late so your first two implements need to carry their weight with just initiate and adept. Another issue is that a lot of optimizers have written off AoE damage as a bad option that gets worse as the game progresses and hp inflates.
Tome is the big choice because the class mostly takes the rogue's skill monkey slot in a party. Flexible skills that can be hyper specific lores if needed are great for that and paragon lets it scale all the way to legendary. With the way skills fall off, you don't see tome taken if it's not going to paragon usually.
Weapon is just great always. Every melee thaumaturge has it as their first implement even if they only leave it at adept.
Lantern is there to beat invis at 7 more than for its exploration benefits.
Mirror is for summon flanker. The extra movement utility is also appreciated. I have a feeling this will fall off in time.
Amulet is generally on ranged thaumaturge to give them a reaction if they aren't taking gunslinger(fake out) or swashbuckler(one for all). Also great as a 3rd implement to use with the level 14 feat as stated.
I never see regalia. I assume this is because lingering inspire courage, heroism and fake out and one for all exist.
Chalice is ok actually. It's just not seen as often for a few reasons. Manipulate triggering reactions, champion archetypes already getting lay on hands, ranged not really needing it at all, cleric existing, etc.
Wand is the sad choice ranged thaumaturge takes to supplement a ranged weapon in a typical wand+shoot rotation. My opinion on it is that it'll eventually get phased out entirely by people thinking dedication electric arc is good enough.
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There is a fair amount of talk of taking wand to paragon because it gives infinite fireballs/lightningballs/coldballs. Also, taking regalia to paragon is INSANE for the ability to just shut down frightened/clumsy/stupified (just remove the downside of a psychic unleashing their psyche?!)
Also, while the adept ability of the chalice is pretty bad, I can see a few sticking with it until paragon for the ability to counteract just about everything under the sun. You poisoned/cursed/diseased all at the same time? Drink this YOU'RE FINE!
The issue is that paragon comes online really late so your first two implements need to carry their weight with just initiate and adept. Another issue is that a lot of optimizers have written off AoE damage as a bad option that gets worse as the game progresses and hp inflates.
Tome is the big choice because the class mostly takes the rogue's skill monkey slot in a party. Flexible skills that can be hyper specific lores if needed are great for that and paragon lets it scale all the way to legendary. With the way skills fall off, you don't see tome taken if it's not going to paragon usually.
Weapon is just great always. Every melee thaumaturge has it as their first implement even if they only leave it at adept.
Lantern is there to beat invis at 7 more than for its exploration benefits.
Mirror is for summon flanker. The extra movement utility is also appreciated. I have a feeling this will fall off in time.
Amulet is generally on ranged thaumaturge to give them a reaction if they aren't taking gunslinger(fake out) or swashbuckler(one for all). Also great as a 3rd implement to use with the level 14 feat as stated.
I never see regalia. I assume this is because lingering inspire courage, heroism and fake out and one for all exist.
Chalice is ok actually. It's just not seen as often for a few reasons. Manipulate triggering reactions, champion archetypes already getting lay on hands, ranged not really needing it at all, cleric...
First of all, my response was to which abilities to take to paragon. So, yes, you get them late, but that wasn't the point. The point was . . . well when you get to level 17, what do you choose?
Also I mean, that's a REALLY narrow view of what a thaumaturge can do. First of all, not every party is going to have a bard, and even if they did, +4 to damage still stacks with the +1 to hit from lingering performance.
But, like, there are also synergies to take into account. The mirror extends the range of your regalia, your amulet (after all, 'you' can be withinin 15 feet of the enemy and the friend you want to block even if the two 'yous' are 15 feet apart.)
But even outside combat, Regalia gives you the ability to follow the leader on any skill you have? Combined with just normal tome, you can follow the leader on anything you know you'll need for the day, from the typical stealth to Lore-How to behave at a noble Taldan Wedding. Plus, I mean, I cannot understate how useful it is to just TURN OFF conditions like clumsy, enfeebled, STUPIFIED (oh, you have a flat 6 check to just not cast that level 10 spell, let me take that away for you. No no, no counteract roll necessary, it just happens.)
I know everyone is hating on the wand, but you have to remember two things, first of all, it is basically the power of a cantrip but for any of the three energy types (oh, that monster is immune to lightning? Let me switch to fire). And at level 17 it does AoE damage without loosing any of its single target damage. And it does 1/2 damage on a 'miss' (successful save) (which most cantrips don't do) so it is reliable bits of damage. Fantastic if you go up against something that needs constant fire/cold/lightning damage applied every round (like a level 17 super troll or whatever.)
And you realize the lantern at paragon pretty much gives you permanent inexhaustible mass true sight, right? Like, that's not even a spell. Just, everyone has true sight as long as your lantern is lit. That is . . . that is NOT nothing.
Listen, you are not wrong, those options you mentioned are good, maybe even, the strongest, but it is hardly a no brainer. If you want to play a support thaumaturge, the regalia is a strong choice. If you want to get rogue dedication, the mirror is a strong choice. Heck, you could even take the amulet instead of the weapon to help offset your 8 HP/level. There are a lot of options out there and ways to build a thaumaturge, that's why I love the class. So I ask you to stop trying to boil it down to "These are the choices to make, there done."
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Great guide. I was quite pleasantly surprised by the depth and relevance of your analyses, as well as the quite easy to read and understand way you wrote it. Congrats.
About the apparent no-restriction based on rarity for weapons, I believe the following part in the description of the Implements class feature is meant to cover it : "Choose an implement from the options to which you have access."
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Great guide. I was quite pleasantly surprised by the depth and relevance of your analyses, as well as the quite easy to read and understand way you wrote it. Congrats.
About the apparent no-restriction based on rarity for weapons, I believe the following part in the description of the Implements class feature is meant to cover it : "Choose an implement from the options to which you have access."
Wow, I love your guides manAnd if I understood correctly the thaumaturge is 2e's Occultist which is one of my favorite classes in 1e
Thanks for the guide! Will start to read it asap
Thanks guys! I appreciate the positive feedback.
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After reading it I must say that Accursed Effigy kinda makes up for the lack of legendary class DC by imposing a -2 status penalty against things that use your class DC, sadly it needs you to physically hurt the target so it doesn't pairs so well with the wand implement which assumes that you will be at Range, that and it only works on a single target at a time so it doesn't improve your infinite fireballs x.x
But hey, it kinda helps with the class DC
Also just noticed that if playing a half elf you can pick ageless patience which effectively nullifies the penalty from using esoteric lore with diverse knowledge to recall knowledge about anything which is pretty nice
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After reading it I must say that Accursed Effigy kinda makes up for the lack of legendary class DC by imposing a -2 status penalty against things that use your class DC, sadly it needs you to physically hurt the target so it doesn't pairs so well with the wand implement which assumes that you will be at Range, that and it only works on a single target at a time so it doesn't improve your infinite fireballs x.x
But hey, it kinda helps with the class DC
Also just noticed that if playing a half elf you can pick ageless patience which effectively nullifies the penalty from using esoteric lore with diverse knowledge to recall knowledge about anything which is pretty nice
I guess . . . the ageless patience trick only works out of combat though (unless you want to spend two actions recalling knowledge in combat.) Some GMs might rule that you can't use it in certain situations even if not in combat.
"Steve's Dying! What plant is the antidode!"
"Let me . . . think. . . . I'm sure the answer will . . . come . . . to . . ."
"Screw it, Frank, what is the antidote!?"
I guess . . . the ageless patience trick only works out of combat though (unless you want to spend two actions recalling knowledge in combat.) Some GMs might rule that you can't use it in certain situations even if not in combat.After reading it I must say that Accursed Effigy kinda makes up for the lack of legendary class DC by imposing a -2 status penalty against things that use your class DC, sadly it needs you to physically hurt the target so it doesn't pairs so well with the wand implement which assumes that you will be at Range, that and it only works on a single target at a time so it doesn't improve your infinite fireballs x.x
But hey, it kinda helps with the class DC
Also just noticed that if playing a half elf you can pick ageless patience which effectively nullifies the penalty from using esoteric lore with diverse knowledge to recall knowledge about anything which is pretty nice
I think for the majority if situations, it works as it notes "you could get these benefits if you spent 2 actions to Seek, which normally takes 1 action." It's hard to see how it allows for you to Seek [an action used in encounter mode] and not Recall. The example of a DM disallowing it is where "delay would be directly counterproductive to your success" and I can't really think of a situation where taking a bit longer thinking about about something is counterproductive.
"Steve's Dying! What plant is the antidode!"
"Let me . . . think. . . . I'm sure the answer will . . . come . . . to . . ."
"Screw it, Frank, what is the antidote!?"
Even with this, I don't see it as "directly counterproductive to your success": the delay might hurts your patient but not the Recall check: even if Steven dies it doesn't matter for the Recall check as you can still figure out what the poison was.
When things are on the clock, taking twice as long itself the penalty: IMO, "directly counterproductive" really only comes into affect when when time wouldn't allow for double cost, so if a bomb blows up in next round and it takes 3 actions to try to disarm it, you can't double the cost. The example given is "a tense negotiation with an impatient creature" which I take as a limited time to complete it.
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Because of a liberal amount of authorized leakes by people like nonat1s and the Rules Lawyer, I have gotten the alpha build of my Thaumaturge's guide up the day of Dark Archive's offical release. I'd love some feedback, I know I've made probably a million mistakes. But I hope you like it and find it and find it useful! Let me know what you think with some constructive criticisms!I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but from everything I've looked at, the Whip Claw requires 2 hands, and as such, is not suitable for use with a talisman. Please let me know if I'm missing something, because, I'd really like a way to use it with the talisman.
Huh. Someone a while ago said it was one handed and I just believed them. That’ll teach me. I’ll fix it when I can.
Good to have some free Thaumaturge guideturgery stuff out there for PF2e, VampByDay. ;)
"Esoteric Lore can be used to recall knowledge on any haunt or curse, or to identify ANY creature, though it rolls against the normal skill DC of the creature (not the DC-2 for an appropriate skill, or the DC-5 for a specific skill.)"
Do the rules specify that anywhere? As written this feels like you might be conflating using the standard DC for Exploit Vulnerability (which is mostly important so a unique creature doesn't increase the DC by 10) with a standard Recall Knowledge. AFAIK nothing specifies whether Esoteric Lore follows the conventions of lore DC reduction for Recall Knowledge, which are already very loosely defined.
There's a good case for not reducing the DC, as the intent of that rule is let narrow, rarely utilized Lores shine. But I expect to see table variance on the subject.
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"Esoteric Lore can be used to recall knowledge on any haunt or curse, or to identify ANY creature, though it rolls against the normal skill DC of the creature (not the DC-2 for an appropriate skill, or the DC-5 for a specific skill.)"
Do the rules specify that anywhere? As written this feels like you might be conflating using the standard DC for Exploit Vulnerability (which is mostly important so a unique creature doesn't increase the DC by 10) with a standard Recall Knowledge. AFAIK nothing specifies whether Esoteric Lore follows the conventions of lore DC reduction for Recall Knowledge, which are already very loosely defined.
There's a good case for not reducing the DC, as the intent of that rule is let narrow, rarely utilized Lores shine. But I expect to see table variance on the subject.
I admit I wrote that before I double checked that, and should probably put a note in it. You're right, it doesn't say that anywhere, only that 'esoteric lore' is not a 'specific' lore.
With Foundry and Archive of Nethys putting unspecific lore and specific lore DCs in the statblocks of monsters, I suspect people will default to reducing the DCs by 2. But those DCs aren't listed in the stat blocks of added by Paizo, and the textual support is nebulous.
That and Personal Antithesis stacking with material weaknesses are probably going to be the two biggest points of disagreement.
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For the Kitsune build - an alternative to Martial Artist would be taking Ancestral Paragon to pick up Retractable Claws at 3 to get a lethal melee unarmed. The Monk Dedication is possibly better than Martial Artist, since you can pick up Flurry of Blows at 10 that way.
True but Martial Artist has no prereqs, whereas monk requires 14 strength AND dex
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For the Kitsune build - an alternative to Martial Artist would be taking Ancestral Paragon to pick up Retractable Claws at 3 to get a lethal melee unarmed. The Monk Dedication is possibly better than Martial Artist, since you can pick up Flurry of Blows at 10 that way.True but Martial Artist has no prereqs, whereas monk requires 14 strength AND dex
On the other side, monk isn't really useful until level 10, which means that you can grab martial artist or retractable claws for an immediate answer, and then retrain over to monk once you've picked up a few levels, and an ability boost or two.
Couple of simple formatting things:
1. The yellow highlighting can actually make it harder to read when it's used for entire chunks of pages.
2. In general for any of these guides, I'm an advocate for reducing the page margins down to half an inch on all sides at max. Everyone's viewing it on a web page anyway, you're not worrying about printing margins, so you're just able to get more information on each page.
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Couple of simple formatting things:
1. The yellow highlighting can actually make it harder to read when it's used for entire chunks of pages.
2. In general for any of these guides, I'm an advocate for reducing the page margins down to half an inch on all sides at max. Everyone's viewing it on a web page anyway, you're not worrying about printing margins, so you're just able to get more information on each page.
I'm not going to go through and redo the margins just now (I have some margin futzing already in there and it would take a while to get it all to work together) but I changed the yellow highlight to a less obnoxious shade of yellow.
On an unrelated note: the Sleepwalker Archetype (Nethys link) is an excellent option thanks to their level 6 feat, Vision of Foresight. Spend one action to enter the dedication's Daydream Trance (which you get from the Dedication feat, and importantly for me, is not a stance), and once you're in the trance, you can spend one action to give True Strike-style advantage to the next skill roll before the end of your next turn. This should include Exploit Vulnerability, which tells you to make an Esoteric Lore check.
Yes Vision of Foresight is very strong for so many builds. None of my players have tried it yet but I'm concerned I'll need to nerf it. Roleplaying wise I'm not sure I'm ready for sleepwalking wrestlers.
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Hello VampByDay,
Great guide, it was great to see someone's comprehensive take on the class and various class feat(ures).
I wanted to note one tweak, and get your thoughts (as well as the community's). In Section 7.1, Odds & Ends, Archetypes to Consider, you note that a monk's flurry allows you to get personal antithesis (PA) twice (and presumably by extension, mortal weakness (MW) as applicable). I don't think this is correct.
Flurry of Blows (Nethys link) states that if both Strikes hit the same creature, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Since PA and MW are both based around weakness mechanics, I'm pretty sure you'd get them only once with flurry.
That said, what are your thoughts? If my understanding of RAW is correct, do you think that makes flurry no longer worth a monk dip (especially at 9th level through Multitalented, for immediate pickup at 10th)? Does the action economy alone make flurry worth it, even if you could potentially get more damage by spending two actions on normal Strikes?
On an unrelated note: the Sleepwalker Archetype (Nethys link) is an excellent option thanks to their level 6 feat, Vision of Foresight. Spend one action to enter the dedication's Daydream Trance (which you get from the Dedication feat, and importantly for me, is not a stance), and once you're in the trance, you can spend one action to give True Strike-style advantage to the next skill roll before the end of your next turn. This should include Exploit Vulnerability, which tells you to make an Esoteric Lore check.
Personal character rambling ahead, read at your own risk: Like some of the posters above, I'm planning a dex-heavy kitsune thaumaturge with the bite attack heritage, wielding regalia, tome , and the Marshal's Diplomacy-based stance/aura at level 4 for a skillmonkey & party support role. I was going to grab Retractable Claws for a d4 finesse agile...
Ah, you got me, that is correct. I'll get around to fixing it. However, Implement Empowerment should trigger twice, since that triggers per strike, not weakness/resistance. Maybe. Hmmmm.
I am glad that you like the guide and thank you for all the kind words.
Anyway, there's no authority or credentials that can say if one of us knows the game well enough to write a guide.
Oh, I don't know. I think maybe the designers who created the class might fit that. :-)
I don’t think the Tengu build works the way you think it does. Fist of all, the fan is not a weapon…
My last post was a wall of text. I would like to get yours and/or others' take on Flurry of Blows on a Thaumaturge. When is it a good pick? Is saving an action worth losing one potential instance of weakness damage?
One last unrelated note: Is it possible to pick up Dragon Stance for d10 damage dice that benefit from the IE bonus damage?
If you're only going to be using one strike per round anyway, and you have the feats to spend, then flurry turning that into two strikes is absolutely worth it, especially if you can afford the feats for the other available riders (like Stunning Blow and Stumbling Feint's little "boosted feint as a free action". It's not like you have a lot of other flourishes competing for the space.
If you'd normally be taking two strikes, and you're extra-worried about missing out on additional vulnerability damage, then you can have your FoB replace your second strike rather than your first - still prue profit. In general, though, the Thaum has enough things to do with their actions that building one that only intends to spend one action per round on striking isn't all that hard.
The real cost to FoB is that you have to have the stats to take Monk, and then you have to spend the feats to juice it up.
...and yes, Dragon Stance works just fine.
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I don’t think the Tengu build works the way you think it does. Fist of all, the fan is not a weapon…This one is. :-)
As much as I like the warfan, The tengu fan says specifically that they make the fan out of their own feathers, snot metal slats . . . so . . . their version probably still doesn't count as a weapon. :D
As much as I like the warfan, The tengu fan says specifically that they make the fan out of their own feathers, snot metal slats . . . so . . . their version probably still doesn't count as a weapon. :DI don’t think the Tengu build works the way you think it does. Fist of all, the fan is not a weapon…This one is. :-)
You could have them magically transformed to and/or plated with metal?
To all you who said I can't/shouldn't post a guide until I've played the thaumaturge a bunch
So, first of all, thank you for taking the time to write a guide. As someone later says, not enough people do it.
But I ask you not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to criticism about the timing. Releasing a guide the first few days is really early - not because you need to put in 10,000 hours of play to get the class right, but because every book has a ton of typos and rules clarifications that dribble out over the next few weeks after release.
A lot of valuations also depend on how GMs and authors as a whole react to it, which coalesces after a few weeks or months. For example, it's really hard to know how valuable the investigator's Expeditious Inspection is without knowing how GMs and authors set the stage for it to be used.
I'm currently in my first game with a thaumaturge, 7 weeks after book release.
I haven't read your guide, but it seems cool at a casual glance. Two months after publication, only now am I starting to think about the class, so whether your guide came out on Day 1 or Day 7 or Day 70, it's pretty much all the same to me. Thanks for your work, both for the guide as originally written and any revisions you've made.
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Thank you so much for this guide! I very much appreciated having your advice to help me construct a character from this complicated but very fun class.
I used it when creating my strength-based thaumaturge, Jinglemane. He's a poppet of a lion centaur, and I was unsure of what weapon to give him, but your guide provided my answer. We're going with your recommendation of the Leiomono, because it is a club covered in sharp teeth and my poppet lion centaur does not have his own teeth. So he's naming his leiomono Lion's Bite, so that he too can have a fierce "bite" attack. It's lovely when the mechanics also fit the story you are telling with the character!
If you're curious, you can see Jinglemane's character sheet by clicking on his avatar.
Thanks so much!
Hmm
I wouldn't sleep on the mirror adept benefit. If you place one reflection inside an enemy's reach and another outside it, their first hit will remove you from their threat zone, potentially forcing them to burn an action moving before they can attack again. The damage is just gravy.
It requires some teamwork to avoiding hurting allies (or abandoning more fragile characters on the front line) but it is a solid boon to a 8hp striker.