Day 1: VampByDay's thaumaturge guide!

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

One more comment: it's not only kitsune that can do the Foxfire thing. Sprites have a similar ancestry feat,
Sprite's Spark. Depending on ancestry, it offers alternatives to fire and electricity for those wanting different energy options. I will be building my second thaumaturge for PFS with a Grig using the sonic Sprite's Spark. I've been wanting to build a Grig, but I have too many bards right now in PFS, and I was looking for a good bard alternative that could be fun to do with a Grig.

The foxfire build with Tome & Regalia sounds like an awesome "bard" alternative, and it would be fitting for a Grig!

Thanks again for the lovely guide!

Hmm

[VampByDay]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

One more comment: it's not only kitsune that can do the Foxfire thing. Sprites have a similar ancestry feat,

Sprite's Spark. Depending on ancestry, it offers alternatives to fire and electricity for those wanting different energy options. I will be building my second thaumaturge for PFS with a Grig using the sonic Sprite's Spark. I've been wanting to build a Grig, but I have too many bards right now in PFS, and I was looking for a good bard alternative that could be fun to do with a Grig.

The foxfire build with Tome & Regalia sounds like an awesome "bard" alternative, and it would be fitting for a Grig!

Thanks again for the lovely guide!

Hmm

Totally didn't know about that! Thanks! I'll include it!

Quote:

I just noticed your guide does not rate Implement's Assault. What rating would you give that class feat?

Wow, how did I miss that? I'll think on it. Tentativly give it a green-orange. It's nice to be able to hit multiple baddies at once, but it seems like games rarely send more than three enemies at you at a time, and spreading the damage around rather than focus firing is usually not optimal.

[aobst128]

I've been running a foxfire thaumaturge for a while now and it's been fun. Had a great moment early on with a ghost encounter that resisted pretty much all the physical damage we were doing until I got close enough to blast it with foxfire and trigger it's weakness to good damage. That, a scroll of magic missile and our champs lay on hands did it in. But other than that moment, my returning chakram is a lot more reliable. Lol.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Another update. Check out errata to the Gnome Flickmace.

Still a great weapon, but now a d6 instead of a d8.

Hmm

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Ooh... Read the errata blog.

Errata Blog wrote:

First comes the most expansive change: alternate ancestry boosts. We’re implementing the option for you to choose two free ability boosts for a character of any ancestry. There have been many ongoing conversations in the gaming community and within Paizo about biological essentialism in RPGs. We think it’s time to address this issue and have added this universal option. This makes it clearer that ancestries aren’t a monolith, and adds more nuance to the world and a wider breadth of characters. To be clear: this is an alternative for all characters and campaigns, not a variant rule, since it’s expected to be in line with the power level of other options. If you have made or want to make a character using an ancestry’s printed options (such as a dwarf with a Con boost, Wisdom boost, free boost, and Charisma flaw), those options remain, and those characters still follow the updated rules. We started heading toward this adjustment in July and are very pleased to have this chance to implement it and bring it to the community!

[VampByDay]

Well, I am going to have to update ALL the race sections in all my guides, so. . . That’ll take a while.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Yep. I do not envy you that task! On the other hand, it can make choosing races much more interesting. Feats will be much more important than ability boosts. I may actually make my first gnome fighter!

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

isn't whip better weapon for a thaumaturge than a flickmace

range weapon are far better than melee for thaumaturge so wouldn't most thaumaturge be dex based

share weakness are pretty much the best feat for thaumaturge

if the team also have a flurry ranger it would be insane against any enemy with a actual weakness

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Whip is an interesting weapon, but its inherent non-lethality can be a problem against enemies that are immune to non-lethal damage. While a trip build could be fun with it, the main thing thaumaturges have going for them in combat is bonus damage. That said, I wound up applying a chronicle that gave me access to a scorpion whip to my dex-based sprite thaumaturge. The scorpion whip is straight up lethal, which solved the problem for me. (Big Jig is size tiny, and I needed a one-handed reach weapon for when foes close with him in melee.)

The flickmace is slightly better damage, and no issue with non-lethal. I consider it the superior reach weapon for strength-based thaumaturges.

I have both a dex-based thaumaturge and a strength-based thaumaturge, and I will say that the strength-based one has been far more effective in combat so far. The extra +3 to damage from that 16 strength really helps in bringing bad guys down faster. As for range weapons... What one-handed range weapons are you thinking of? Most guns have to be reloaded a lot, which just eats your actions as a thaum. The air repeater is nice, but low damage. Still, 1d4 does not matter as much as a thaum when you are adding so much static damage.

Though melee thaums have to position in combat which also eats actions... I suppose that puts them on par with thaums who have to use actions to reload. The mirror, my favorite implement, works best with melee.

I also think that natural attack and sprite's spark / foxfire builds have a huge advantage over other builds because they don't have to spend actions drawing weapons at all. Any place where you can save yourself actions as a thaum is a bonus.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

would use a stiletto pen for weapon implement

pair with tome and exploit weakness by writing nonsense or dip into special ink

other 20 feet throw weapon would be stronger even if the reaction only have 10 feat range

if build for power would go with martial artist follow-up strike

small weapon die are much less a problem for thaumaturge than other martial

just hit and trigger weakness are far more important

[aobst128]

Scorpion whip weapon Thaum is ideal if you can get access to it. Tripping is almost guaranteed to net you an aoo. As for dex thaums, I've been running a foxfire switch hitter with mind smith to great effect.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Hey Vamp, have you noticed the change to the Leiomano that was reprinted in Treasure Vault? Instead of being deadly d10 it is now fatal d10.

I love it soooo much.

Hmm

[Old_Man_Robot]

aobst128 wrote:

Scorpion whip weapon Thaum is ideal if you can get access to it.

I've been running a Scorpion whip Thaumaturge for a good while now. I was excited by the TV for a chance to replace it with something with a bit more heft, but no, whip is still life.

[VampByDay]

Updated the weapons section for the thaumaturge to include some of the new items in Treasure Vault.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Hey Vamp, have you noticed the change to the Leiomano that was reprinted in Treasure Vault? Instead of being deadly d10 it is now fatal d10.

I love it soooo much.

Hmm

one hand fatal d10 bludgeon are amazing

club crit are pretty bad but not most important

[shroudb]

i'm not particularly enthusiastic about fatal weapons on the thaumaturge. with a startint 16 in his attack stat he isn't critting that much imo, especially with the action economy of thaumaturge not usually allowing multiple attacks (with melee weapons at least)

i think higher base damage will overall be better for a thaumaturge rather than lower base+fatal

reading the guide:

a few errors:
Twin Weakness:
that is a specific action (2 action cost), it's not a passive thing that happens on all of your strikes.
So the whole thing with it triggering on Adept weapon implement (which only happens when you use your weapon reaction, which is a Strike and not a Twin weakness) is wrong.

basically you trade 1 action and 1 map increase for 7 damage or so when you get it. Ok-ish, but nothing to write home about imo. (especially with the tight action economy of the thaumaturge, i dont value it that high at all)

rating wise, my comments would be:

I would also bump up Divine disharmony to at least green, or straight up blue if you are using a ranged weapon.

inflict ranged flatfooted for the whole round (or two rounds with a crit), using either Deception or Intimidation, and going against Will instead of perception, is actually pretty strong.

Ubiquitous weakness would also be straight up blue imo. Apart from the BBEG, as you pointed out, at high levels half of your enemies have weaknesses, and this doesn't cost an action. Every time you find a weakness, you give the whole party +10-20 damage without any action cost is pretty massive.

I'd drop scrolls down to green from blue. imo while very versatile, they are lower level and fewer than having an actual caster archetype for the same feat investment. I tend to think most parties have the out of combat essential spells covered from my experience, so the out of combat versatility is kinda downgraded and in combat the action tax of using scrolls instead of spells just doesn't make it that amazing imo. A solid option still, so green, but not blue imo.

edit:

i also dont see where the confusion is about tome adept.
the adept specifically says to get a check to recall, not to do an action to recall. it's just something that happens, not a specific action to have a cost. i have never seen it ruled otherwise.

it also has the single best offensive Intensify, giving you effectively at will true strike.

---

for builds, a drunken fist thaumaturge is pretty neat, with regalia giving you bonuses to deception and the ability to get feint+flurry as 1 action by midlevels.

and for switchhitting, a triggerband dex based thaumaturge, which at level 12 gives you maybe the strongest 1 action attack is pretty good (before that it's just regular switch hitting). i'd go for Tome on that one so that i maximize my chances of hitting with my melee attack so that i could get my "free" ranged one (at +2 at that).

[AceofMoxen]

The first level scrolls feat is really nice in pfs. If you are in the spells school, you get a free at-level scroll every mission (three a level), after you here the introduction.

Higher level scrolls feats are fun, but not a significant money saver.

[VampByDay]

The issue of the scrolls is to get ANY scroll you need with just a day of prep. Even if your are weeks from town. Friend feebleminded? Get Remove Curse. Your friend is dying from a ridiculously powerful level 5 disease that they can't save against? Level 6 remove disease (even a fail gets rid of it) Need a specific spell that's not on anyone's spell list for some puzzle or some other thing? You got it. It' isn't the power of the spells, it's the versatility and the fact that you can get them even if stuck weeks from the nearest town.

[Sanityfaerie]

VampByDay wrote:

The issue of the scrolls is to get ANY scroll you need with just a day of prep. Even if your are weeks from town. Friend feebleminded? Get Remove Curse. Your friend is dying from a ridiculously powerful level 5 disease that they can't save against? Level 6 remove disease (even a fail gets rid of it) Need a specific spell that's not on anyone's spell list for some puzzle or some other thing? You got it. It' isn't the power of the spells, it's the versatility and the fact that you can get them even if stuck weeks from the nearest town.

Hey! Check out what I just found behind this rock!

I'll also say that on the matter of weapons to choose for Dex thaum... I think that Hand Crossbow should be on the list. It isn't all that great by itself, but it has some nice archetype support in Archer (for Crossbow Terror) and Drow Shootist. I wouldn't suggest it under standard rules, but in a free archetype game, it can be a very solid weapon.

I'd further suggest some investment in Marshal for the Double Battle-Leader option. Marshal has a lot of feats that are really great when you're right next to or at least very close to your melee allies, and doubling up on your locations can really help with that - on top of the whole "have an aura with your aura" thing. You *do* need to make sure that the auras your'e handing out aren't redundant, but that's doable.

[Jinglemane]

There is already a nice mention of the Marshal archetype in the guide. I plan to take the Marshal archetype at Level 4 with Jinglemane (I had to pick up Scroll Thaumaturgy at Level 2, because there are so many interesting scrolls that turn up in PFS.)

[shroudb]

VampByDay wrote:

The issue of the scrolls is to get ANY scroll you need with just a day of prep. Even if your are weeks from town. Friend feebleminded? Get Remove Curse. Your friend is dying from a ridiculously powerful level 5 disease that they can't save against? Level 6 remove disease (even a fail gets rid of it) Need a specific spell that's not on anyone's spell list for some puzzle or some other thing? You got it. It' isn't the power of the spells, it's the versatility and the fact that you can get them even if stuck weeks from the nearest town.

ehh it depends. all those are counteract checks, and since you are way below max level on the scrolls, it means that it would basically only counteract lower level stuff. As an example, you need to be level 18 to have the 6th level remove curse. That means that a level 18th party facing a cr10 hazard/enemy (5th level disease). You shouldn't need much help to recover from that even with just saves.

but mostly is the thing i outlined before: i expect a high level party to already have remove curse, remove disease, and etc out of combat spells (with a day of prep). that's my experience. never been in a party, or gmed a party, that didn't have those, either in their spellbook or through other means.

still a good feat line, thus green, but nothing amazing.

if it followed actual spellcasting archetype progression it would have been blue imo, but it's behind even that.

[VampByDay]

shroudb wrote:

ehh it depends. all those are counteract checks, and since you are way below max level on the scrolls, it means that it would basically only counteract lower level stuff. As an example, you need to be level 18 to have the 6th level remove curse. That means that a level 18th party facing a cr10 hazard/enemy (5th level disease). You shouldn't need much help to recover from that even with just saves.

but mostly is the thing i outlined before: i expect a high level party to already have remove curse, remove disease, and etc out of combat spells (with a day of prep). that's my experience. never been in a party, or gmed a party, that didn't have those, either in their spellbook or through other means.

still a good feat line, thus green, but nothing amazing.

if it followed actual spellcasting archetype progression it would have been blue imo, but it's behind even that.

I've run into plenty of situations where the group is like "Alright who has restoration?" and the one divine caster is, like, a divine summoner and they're like "I forgot about Restoration!"

Or the party has like, three scrolls of restoration and end up fighting a horde of vampires and need a boatload of them.

And there is nothing that prevents you handing scrolls off to other party members, allowing to use their (likely higher) spell DCs for the scroll. just can't copy spells from the scroll.

[shroudb]

VampByDay wrote:

shroudb wrote:

ehh it depends. all those are counteract checks, and since you are way below max level on the scrolls, it means that it would basically only counteract lower level stuff. As an example, you need to be level 18 to have the 6th level remove curse. That means that a level 18th party facing a cr10 hazard/enemy (5th level disease). You shouldn't need much help to recover from that even with just saves.

but mostly is the thing i outlined before: i expect a high level party to already have remove curse, remove disease, and etc out of combat spells (with a day of prep). that's my experience. never been in a party, or gmed a party, that didn't have those, either in their spellbook or through other means.

still a good feat line, thus green, but nothing amazing.

if it followed actual spellcasting archetype progression it would have been blue imo, but it's behind even that.

I've run into plenty of situations where the group is like "Alright who has restoration?" and the one divine caster is, like, a divine summoner and they're like "I forgot about Restoration!"

Or the party has like, three scrolls of restoration and end up fighting a horde of vampires and need a boatload of them.

And there is nothing that prevents you handing scrolls off to other party members, allowing to use their (likely higher) spell DCs for the scroll. just can't copy spells from the scroll.

even then, that's circumstantial.

so you are sacrificing power (lower level, action economy bad, and fewer) for that circumstantial adaptability.

which is why i personally value it as green. something good enough to pick, but not something that's absolutely amazing.

for the same feat cost, you could have a prepared caster like a divine witch and simply have those spells in your familiar. so when needed you can spend a day and prepare as many and at what level you want. (and yes, witch is not good for tahumaturg due to Int, but I'm speaking party wide here).

[Sanityfaerie]

shroudb wrote:

for the same feat cost, you could have a prepared caster like a divine witch and simply have those spells in your familiar. so when needed you can spend a day and prepare as many and at what level you want. (and yes, witch is not good for tahumaturg due to Int, but I'm speaking party wide here).

That prepared caster would have to have the spell in their spellbook (or equivalent) and even then it would only give you one of the four traditions.

If you don't care all that much about the level of versatility available, there's nothing wrong with that... but don't think that that versatility is easily matched. It's really not.

[siegfriedliner]

Assuming your going strength thaumaturge do you reckon the dip for sentinel and heavy armour is worth it?

I was thinking of going paladin at 2-6 and then getting sentinel at 8 it loses you a lot of feats but gains you lay on hands but gets you an nice reaction and some free healing that doesn't use up an implement.

[VampByDay]

A single dip into sentinel for heavy armor could really help a thaumaturge, especially since they don’t traditionally use shields or have the shield spell. It could also help their reflex saves considering the Bulwark property.

[Dubious Scholar]

There's some redundancy with Champion and Sentinel on the heavy armor, but Champion doesn't give scaling armor proficiency. Of course, that doesn't actually matter until level 11 for Thaumaturge.

[siegfriedliner]

VampByDay wrote:

A single dip into sentinel for heavy armor could really help a thaumaturge, especially since they don’t traditionally use shields or have the shield spell. It could also help their reflex saves considering the Bulwark property.

Not to mention that a highly charismatic thaumaturge in in a demon masked flamboyant samurai armour is a look.

[aobst128]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

VampByDay wrote:

The issue of the scrolls is to get ANY scroll you need with just a day of prep. Even if your are weeks from town. Friend feebleminded? Get Remove Curse. Your friend is dying from a ridiculously powerful level 5 disease that they can't save against? Level 6 remove disease (even a fail gets rid of it) Need a specific spell that's not on anyone's spell list for some puzzle or some other thing? You got it. It' isn't the power of the spells, it's the versatility and the fact that you can get them even if stuck weeks from the nearest town.

Hey! Check out what I just found behind this rock!

I'll also say that on the matter of weapons to choose for Dex thaum... I think that Hand Crossbow should be on the list. It isn't all that great by itself, but it has some nice archetype support in Archer (for Crossbow Terror) and Drow Shootist. I wouldn't suggest it under standard rules, but in a free archetype game, it can be a very solid weapon.

I'd further suggest some investment in Marshal for the Double Battle-Leader option. Marshal has a lot of feats that are really great when you're right next to or at least very close to your melee allies, and doubling up on your locations can really help with that - on top of the whole "have an aura with your aura" thing. You *do* need to make sure that the auras your'e handing out aren't redundant, but that's doable.

Thankfully, we've got the rotary bow now so crossbow terror isn't all that necessary anymore. The thaum chassis and core abilities are strong enough to focus on an archetype if you really want to. It's kinda funny though that if you wanted to prioritize making your hand crossbow better, the 2 archetypes that can handle that also have options to use the repeating hand crossbow so it's all kind of redundant.

[Sanityfaerie]

aobst128 wrote:

Thankfully, we've got the rotary bow now so crossbow terror isn't all that necessary anymore. The thaum chassis and core abilities are strong enough to focus on an archetype if you really want to. It's kinda funny though that if you wanted to prioritize making your hand crossbow better, the 2 archetypes that can handle that also have options to use the repeating hand crossbow so it's all kind of redundant.

Funny thing is that if you don't have a different default attack activity that you want to use, then Reloading Trick with the hand crossbow is at least solidly competitive with the repeating hand crossbow (depends on how many times per round you hope to attack) Similarly, crossbow terror bumps up the die size on hand crossbow but *not* repeating hand crossbow.

Admittedly, rotary bow is a very solid competitor. It loses out on reloading trick, but the feat cost is far lower, and the fact that it doesn't require an archetype from a specific AP is also helpful. In the absence of Drow Shootist, it's clearly superior to the hand crossow... and I think it pretty much obsoletes the repeating hand crossbow regardless.

[KosmicDM]

@VampByDay; First off, love your guide. I recently found a way to make the Familiar useful for a Thaumaturge:

Our progression for Esoteric Lore is tied to a specific advancement, just like Bardic Lore, etc. There are a few items in game that can give you a bonus to Recall Knowledge with Lore check, like the Brooch of Inspiration.

Here's where the Familiar comes in:
1. Take a familiar
2. Get either level 2 feat Enhanced Familiar through the class or Familiar Master Dedication
3. Familiar now has 4 abilities
4. Take the abilities Independent, Skilled, Second Opinion
5. The fourth ability can be whatever you like or Speech/Touch Telepathy to talk to you.

Each round, the familiar gets one action on its own (Independent) and a Reaction to Aid (Second Opinion) to use on Esoteric Lore (Skilled)

Per Second Opinion, the Aid is an auto Success(+1) and Auto Critical Success(+2) at Master skill level.

This becomes an auto skill increase to your Esoteric Lore check.

[shroudb]

KosmicDM wrote:

@VampByDay; First off, love your guide. I recently found a way to make the Familiar useful for a Thaumaturge:

Our progression for Esoteric Lore is tied to a specific advancement, just like Bardic Lore, etc. There are a few items in game that can give you a bonus to Recall Knowledge with Lore check, like the Brooch of Inspiration.

Here's where the Familiar comes in:
1. Take a familiar
2. Get either level 2 feat Enhanced Familiar through the class or Familiar Master Dedication
3. Familiar now has 4 abilities
4. Take the abilities Independent, Skilled, Second Opinion
5. The fourth ability can be whatever you like or Speech/Touch Telepathy to talk to you.

Each round, the familiar gets one action on its own (Independent) and a Reaction to Aid (Second Opinion) to use on Esoteric Lore (Skilled)

Per Second Opinion, the Aid is an auto Success(+1) and Auto Critical Success(+2) at Master skill level.

This becomes an auto skill increase to your Esoteric Lore check.

for the same reasons a fighter cannot select "Esoteric Lore" as one of his skills/lore (and that behaving like the specific class feature of thaumaturge), i see no reason why the familiar would.

[Sanityfaerie]

shroudb wrote:

for the same reasons a fighter cannot select "Esoteric Lore" as one of his skills/lore (and that behaving like the specific class feature of thaumaturge), i see no reason why the familiar would.

It's not behaving as the Thaumaturge's would. It's just being used for Aid Another - as it technically *is* the same skill, which means that the Aid Another use is legit.

[shroudb]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

shroudb wrote:

for the same reasons a fighter cannot select "Esoteric Lore" as one of his skills/lore (and that behaving like the specific class feature of thaumaturge), i see no reason why the familiar would.

It's not behaving as the Thaumaturge's would. It's just being used for Aid Another - as it technically *is* the same skill, which means that the Aid Another use is legit.

But it's not the same skill.

"Technically" while you can pick a Lore called Esoteric Lore, the only thing it has in common is the name, in effect, it is a 100% different skill (and you could probably can roll it for stuff like mantras and meditation techniques and other "esoteric" stuff like that.)

As an example, a fighter picking a skill called Bardic Lore, would probably know a lot of things about bards, but it would NOT be the same skill as actual Bardic lore from ya feature.

For Skilled you choose a skill and the familiar can use it.

If a familiar could pick Esoteric lore for that skill slot, what's stopping it from picking as an example Bardic Lore.

Or even better, have a familiar, ANY familiar, pick both Esoteric and Bardic Lore with Skilled.

And now any character with a familiar suddenly has access to both those skills simultaneously.

---

To put it more simply:
If it is the same skill:

Any familiar (and every character) can use those special Lores.

Since that's what Skilled does (and also a character picking a Lore skill does).

[Sanityfaerie]

shroudb wrote:

To put it more simply:

If it is the same skill:

Any familiar (and every character) can use those special Lores.

Since that's what Skilled does (and also a character picking a Lore skill does).

Okay. So first, I was incorrect. I'd assumed that the lore skill itself was technically available but not terribly exciting, and that the thaumaturge feature/bard feat was the thing that was making it special. I re-read the pertinent bits of the rules and discovered that that was not true. The specialness of Esoteric Lore and Bardic Lore are inherent in the skills themselves. So no, this trick with the familiar shouldn't work.

Moreover, it doesn't work, and I'll tell you why.

Core Rulebook page 247 wrote:

You gain a specific subcategory of the Lore skill from your background. The GM determines what other subcategories they'll allow as Lore skills, though these categories are always less broad than any of the other skills that allow you to Recall Knowledge, and they should never be able to fully or mainly take the place of another skill's Recall Knowledge action.

So it's GM's call whether or not you're allowed to take a skill called "esoteric lore". It turns out, though, that "esoteric lore" is defined (in the Thaumaturge class) as "a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses, and creatures of any type" - clearly not "less broad than any of the other skills that allow you to Recall Knowledge".

The combo doesn't work, even for aid another. The familiar cannot learn that skill.

[Xenocrat]

I'm deeply disturbed to see this polite persuasion and changing of minds. The forums really are going to hell lately.

[VampByDay]

So, there is an issue here that I'd like to point out.

It is of my opinion that Esoteric Lore isn't a lore skill. Yes yes, I understand, it is called lore and acts like a skill, but notice it is listed as a class ability. I think they should have called it something like 'Esoteric Recall' or whatever. Your familiar cannot take it as a skill because it is not a skill. Same with Bardic knowledge, or an investigator's ability to recall knowledge on any Lore skill. All of those are examples of a class feature acting as if it was a skill but not actually being a skill you can choose to get.

[Gortle]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

The specialness of Esoteric Lore and Bardic Lore are inherent in the skills themselves. So no, this trick with the familiar shouldn't work.

Do you have anything specific apart from this general argument that these special Lore skills are different? These skills are defined as Lore skills, which are a skill, and familiar gets to choose a skill, so your argument is essentially circular. I mean I agree it would be too strong for you to just take one of these lore skills. I was under the misapprehension that the familiar was picking from its owner's skills.

BTW there are more skills like this:

Esoteric Lore from Thaumaturge
Bardic Lore from Bard
Gossip Lore from Dandy archetype
Loremaster Lore from the Loremaster archetype
Master Monster Hunter from Ranger
and also Unified Theory is somewhat in this category too.

For the last two this familiar option does actually work.

[shroudb]

Gortle wrote:

Sanityfaerie wrote:

The specialness of Esoteric Lore and Bardic Lore are inherent in the skills themselves. So no, this trick with the familiar shouldn't work.

Do you have anything specific apart from this general argument that these special Lore skills are different? These skills are defined as Lore skills, which are a skill, and familiar gets to choose a skill, so your argument is essentially circular. I mean I agree it would be too strong for you to just take one of these lore skills. I was under the misapprehension that the familiar was picking from its owner's skills.

BTW there are more skills like this:

Esoteric Lore from Thaumaturge
Bardic Lore from Bard
Gossip Lore from Dandy archetype
Loremaster Lore from the Loremaster archetype

as i said earlier, the specific abilities of those special lores are actually a class feature.

the "generic" lore rules are what applies to the lores that a character (and thus a familiar) can pick up.

so, while a character can indeed pick up a skill called "Bardic Lore" it is effectively 100% different from the Bard feature called Bardic Lore.

One is defined by the skill entry of lores, which means a general understanding about the subject (in this case the subject being Bards) the other being a full class feature allowing you to use it on literaly all recall checks.

So, they are a different skill.

Familiar's Skilled, is no different than what any normal character can pick.

[KosmicDM]

I based my theory crafting on the following:

From Thaumaturge Esoteric Lore:
- You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge...
- Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma as your modifier on Esoteric Lore checks.

I was under the impression that it is a special lore skill, but nonetheless, a lore skill.
Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma, but otherwise it is a Lore(special) skill.

Archives of Nethys links Esoteric Lore to the Lore page. I know that this may be just a quick and easy way for referencing rules.

You are granted the Dubious Knowledge feat by the Esoteric Lore class feature, which affects a Recall Knowledge on any "skill"

I can see why the Fighter taking Lore: Bardic would be different than Bardic Lore. I don't think it would be a stretch that your magically bonded familiar would know your skills, like Esoteric Lore.

I can see the arguments for both sides. I do not think it is 100% definitive towards one side or the other. Don't think my assumptions were in left field. In the end, probably up to GM interpretation/allowance.

EDIT: Has been approved for my character to use it. GM's reasoning; If you're willing to spend two feats and four familiar abilities to get a +1/+2 to your roll, go for it, lol.

[shroudb]

KosmicDM wrote:

I based my theory crafting on the following:

From Thaumaturge Esoteric Lore:
- You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge...
- Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma as your modifier on Esoteric Lore checks.

I was under the impression that it is a special lore skill, but nonetheless, a lore skill.
Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma, but otherwise it is a Lore(special) skill.

Archives of Nethys links Esoteric Lore to the Lore page. I know that this may be just a quick and easy way for referencing rules.

You are granted the Dubious Knowledge feat by the Esoteric Lore class feature, which affects a Recall Knowledge on any "skill"

I can see why the Fighter taking Lore: Bardic would be different than Bardic Lore. I don't think it would be a stretch that your magically bonded familiar would know your skills, like Esoteric Lore.

I can see the arguments for both sides. I do not think it is 100% definitive towards one side or the other. Don't think my assumptions were in left field. In the end, probably up to GM interpretation/allowance.

EDIT: Has been approved for my character to use it. GM's reasoning; If you're willing to spend two feats and four familiar abilities to get a +1/+2 to your roll, go for it, lol.

the thing is that Skilled only allows what a character can normally pick, ANY character.

so, in effect, if your familiar can pick up esoteric lore, so can a fighter.

the other thing is that apart from using the Aid reaction, by your familiar having now Esoteric Lore, it means that it can now, in addition to you, also identify every single creture far better than any other recall character can, since that's a skill that the familiar can now freely use.

If your GM says ok, sure, but keep in mind that this is far beyond what Skilled nomrally does RAW.

[KosmicDM]

Shroudb, one other reason I thought it would be allowed (and this isn’t by no means official), is because Pathbuilder let me select Esoteric Lore for my familiar’s Skilled ability.

[shroudb]

KosmicDM wrote:

Shroudb, one other reason I thought it would be allowed (and this isn’t by no means official), is because Pathbuilder let me select Esoteric Lore for my familiar’s Skilled ability.

pathbuilder has no restrictions in lores lol.

you can type in anything you want.

i can put in "lore: how to become a god" and it will be ok according to pathbuilder.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

What are everyone's favorite natural attacks for Thaumaturges? I want to build a natural attack thaumaturge for PFS today, and I have the ACP for pretty much any ancestry I want.

I am thinking about making a xyloshi kashrishi so that I can hit things with my face, but I was also interested in other people's suggestions.

[Halinn]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

What are everyone's favorite natural attacks for Thaumaturges? I want to build a natural attack thaumaturge for PFS today, and I have the ACP for pretty much any ancestry I want.

I am thinking about making a xyloshi kashrishi so that I can hit things with my face, but I was also interested in other people's suggestions.

I'm a fan of Lizardfolk here, being able to get both a bite and a tail attack to cover different damage types

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Lizardfolk have some hice options. I also love their astronomy feats.

[Sanityfaerie]

I'm fond of tailed goblin with hard tail, as that nets you both the tail attack and hands-free tripping. At 5th, you get access to Tail Spin, which is... surprisingly nice, for the situations that it applies to.

Otherwise, I'd probably be looking at running a dex-thaum with an unarmed ranged attack.

[Ventnor]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Lizardfolk have some hice options. I also love their astronomy feats.

"I observed the night sky last night. The stars told me that today you will be conquered by silver."

[VampByDay]

Tiefling s can get a hoof attack! That lets you kick your enemy to death.

[Xethik]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

What are everyone's favorite natural attacks for Thaumaturges? I want to build a natural attack thaumaturge for PFS today, and I have the ACP for pretty much any ancestry I want.

I am thinking about making a xyloshi kashrishi so that I can hit things with my face, but I was also interested in other people's suggestions.

I think Kashrishi are one of the best options, as you mentioned. That or going with a non-natural unarmed attack, like Stumbling Stance.