To what extent is proselytizing acceptable in Golarion?

[DRD1812]

I've got a new campaign coming up this summer, and I'll be playing my first divine caster in ages. I'm have trouble wrapping my head around proselytizing in Golarion though.

When it comes to representing a polytheistic society, do you tend to favor state religions and devoted theocracies? If so, would a cleric get in trouble with the authorities for recruiting for her own deity? Or does your game world adopt more of a laissez-faire attitude? The existence of Hellknights suggests evil deities are cool as long as you aren't out there sacrificing people. But I'm genuinely unsure of the extent to which those faiths are tolerated when they become "active" rather than just passively existing.

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

[Kasoh]

Absalom has temples to the Core 20 deities and many other for smaller beings of worship. Religious freedom is important to the city, so veneration of any deity is okay so long as you do not commit any crimes in the act of worship. This has interesting impact on the worship of Norgyborg as a full third of his trinity is Serial Killer, making the other worshipers awkwardly covering up for them.

In other places, certain faiths and philosophies are banned. Cheliax, for example bans all chaotic religions if I recall. Rahadoum, is well, Rahadoum. Most places have prohibitions on the worship of Demon Lords and several of the Evil deities--not many places are eager to let the Church of Rovagug build a church in their backyard.

If you don't mind searching an old thread that talks about alignment, the topic gets covered here.

[Ryze Kuja]

I know this is cliché but it's true: it depends on where you are and what religion you're proselytizing.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

I dunno, but the Church of Razmir is doing well enough.

[VoodistMonk]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

I dunno, but the Church of Razmir is doing well enough.

So happy this was mentioned... Razmir should be everyone's favorite god because he is a slob like one of us.

[Mudfoot]

You might consider how Romans and Greeks handled it. All the conventional gods (Jupiter, Hera, Venus, Ceres, Vulcan, Apollo, etc) would be worshipped as required by feast days and what you wanted from your prayers. Outsider religions (Mithra, Jehovah, Ahura Mazda) might be tolerated depending on whether they were seen to be causing trouble. "Evil" gods were propitiated when necessary just to keep them happy, rather than worshipped as a good thing.

So if you have a secret to hide like an affair or a gambling debt, you might pray to Norgorber for help keeping it quiet. And you might ask Asmodeus for help in a legal dispute, or both Pharasma and Urgothoa when your mother dies. Lamashtu has motherhood and childbirth as a core job.

ZK and especially Rovagug are more tricky. I imagine ZK has a shrine in Shelyn's (much bigger) temple.

[Mudfoot]

As for the question, 'is prosetylising acceptable?', prosetylising what, and acceptable to whom?

As many gods are known to exist, it's not like a Jehovah's Witness trying to convert a Muslim. You're not (presumably) replacing one belief with another. So telling someone that they should worship Abadar because reasons is probably going to be met with a shrug. It's like being pestered by a street trader to buy this lovely shawl. Go away, I'm busy.

OTOH, telling a cleric of Gorum he should worship Abadar is...dumb. There will be a fight. And telling people not to visit the temple of Calistria will a) antagonise Calistria's clerics, b) annoy some of her worshippers and c) meet the approval of their wives.

Weird and new gods would be viewed with suspicion, and evil ones with hostility unless the advocate is selling something worthwhile. For example, IMC there are Treerazer cultists subtly promoting demon worship to lumberjacks in Andoran on the pretext of getting rid of the Fey in the Verduran.

[Chell Raighn]

In Galorian it seems fair to say that proselytizing exists primarily when dealing with worshipers of deities from a separate pantheon, or worshipers of a deity who is diametrically opposed to your own. For example, a worshiper of Nethys might try to sway the beliefs of someone who follows Kronia, claiming them to be an inferior imitation.

[Mark Hoover 330]

If there were proselytizing in Golarion Mudfoot, I'd expect it to be "this is the TRUE way to worship..." (insert deity here). This is why I think this: Erastil.

This deity is Lawful by nature right? However in the fluff he's described as being worshipped in three different aspects in three different cultures, along with his orthodoxy. Which one is right? Well, all of them b/c they all venerate the same god, and yet as a Lawful being Erastil allows his worship style, visage, worshipper alignment and other aspects to be fluid depending on who is paying him homage.

In a world where a false deity can be worshipped with SUCH zeal that the faithful can actually develop magic powers from it, proselytizing could be subversive and dangerous. Think about it; this game has a PC class called Inquisitor whose role within their own faith is to root out heresy. Well, just by putting that character class into the game you're setting the expectation that heresy exists right?

Well, two of the things Inquisitors are good at is sussing out guarded falsehoods and making Knowledge checks. If heresies were as obvious as a Pharasmin male priest that wears all white and commands his followers to animate the dead, Inquisitors wouldn't really be needed would they?

So, heresy has to be small, subtle; hidden in plain sight. Some creature or entity might pass itself off as an agent of an Inner Sea deity, or a force like a witch's patron seduces one of the faithful. There's demon possession, occult rites, or heck, it might just be that some devil or night hag taught one of the devout the wrong words to one of their hymns. Whatever the case, there's got to be some insidious flaw for Inquisitors to uncover in order to pronounce their Judgement.

Now imagine someone standing on a street corner in, say, Magnimar or Caliphas claiming that they are espousing the one true way to worship Pharasma, or Erastil or Abadar. All three of these deities have different ways they can be worshipped in their fluff, so who's to say this NPC is correct? The inquisition, that's who.

[Mudfoot]

The Inquisitor class isn't really an inquisitor like Torquemada, rulebook fluff notwithstanding. Sure, there will be some heresy and backsliding and abuse of power, but if a 'heretic' is gaining spells from the god he claims to worship, that's demonstrably OK. But it doesn't take an 'Inquisitor' to investigate that. It's a class, not a job title.

Of course that idea hasn't stopped variants of Christianity or Islam being at each others' throats for millenia, so it won't work quite properly on Golarion either. But as a lot of religion is wrapped up with politics, the details are important. For example, if country A insists that Erastil's Holy Book says that women should be married and settle down, and country B says the opposite because the queen has other plans, there's going to be a war wrapped in a cassock. And you'll get the same thing at a local scale.

ISTR there was a minor deity who specialised in infiltrating other religions and usurping their power, but I can't find it. If it exists, there's a valid reason for an inquisitor, though said deity's methods may not be heresy or prosetylising as such.

[UnArcaneElection]

You can find a whole major type of Devil that spreads heresies. So I would suspect that Asmodeus is strongly in on infiltrating other religions and usurping their power, even if I hadn't already seen plenty to give me that impression.

[Taja the Barbarian]

In the real world, proselytizing is generally based on the core belief that 'My faith is one and only true faith and those who do not worship my deity exactly as I do are doomed to burn for all eternity after they die...' which makes proselytizing a righteous act that often grants the proselytizer a better position within the faith and the faith a stronger position in society.

In polytheistic societies (particularly ones like Golarion where divine magic is fairly common), this core belief doesn't really fit so proselytizing should be far less common, though I'm certain you'll still see the 'less-theologically motivated' cases (Convert the Duke's eldest son to our faith and we'll be able to influence his future rule!).

Now, if you honestly want to save a Golarionian soul, you'd really have to somehow change their actual alignment rather than just their specific faith...

[UnArcaneElection]

^Depends upon whether you really want to save a Golarionian soul or just get it into your faith so you can use it later. I expect that the evil deities and deity wanna-be types would proselytize a lot when they think they can get away with it.

[Senko]

I think it'd be a lot like Jehova's witnesses or at least my understanding of them. "Greetings sir/madam, may I have a minute of your time to tell you about the benefits of worshiping Erastil/Callistra/Gorum?" Your trying to win them over to your belief but in a "We have this lovely afterlife you can get into for just 3 hours worship a week" sense rather than a "If you don't worship like me you go to horrible eternal torment and I'll burn you alive to save you from it." one. There are obviously exceptions Razmir or Rovagug for example and occasional flare ups would happen but mass killings, war and torture because someone worships a different lawful deity would be a lot less common and probably the fault of someone else trying to stir up trouble.

[DeathlessOne]

I think it is only an issue for those that draw their powers directly from a deity, like priests and clerics. Most people in Golarion don't worship just one deity, they give lip service and tribute to many depending on the situation. You only have to chose one, and be chosen in return, in order to manifest powers from that deity (exceptions exist, naturally).

So, proselytizing in Golarion is generally nothing more that attempting to sway more people to actively worship your deity above others, so that you draw more tribute and wealth to your church, and perhaps souls in the afterlife to help fuel the near-eternal battle between the gods in the outer planes. Naturally, you'll find competition between rival churches for resources.

How this all works generally falls into the categories of the alignments. Lawful oriented people tend to believe certain codes of behavior are superior and all should adhere to them. Chaotic people tend to believe each person find their own way based on their own internal code (even if that code changes). Good people tend to wish to help others through personal sacrifice and sharing of burdens. Evil people tend to want to acquire that which will benefit them in the short/long run, even at the cost others. Neutral tends to fall in the middle of these things, having benevolent intentions but not so quite 'consistent' methods to achieve those goals (ie, using not 'good' means to achieve a 'good' outcome, or using 'lawful' means to de-incentivize 'chaotic' behaviors that lead to instability). People who resonate with that kind of outlook gravitate to that kind of deity or tenents.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I suspect in settings with actual gods that religious proselytizing ends up a lot more like political campaigning than what we have IRL. Less 'this is the only Truth and you have to do everything our way' and more 'our side has the best deal and knows best how to run things'. Worship and priesthood can easily become more a matter of a work contract between god and worshipper than whole-hearted dedication and faith.

Depending on there are exceptions to this, like the faith of al-Kalim/The Eternal Truth in Mystara.

[UnArcaneElection]

^That said, political campaigning can get really dirty and violent in our world.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

So can religious conversion. Anyway, I figured a certain amount of violence went without saying.

PhilosophersProselytizers with clubs, and all that.

[DeathlessOne]

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

So can religious conversion. Anyway, I figured a certain amount of violence went without saying.

PhilosophersProselytizers with clubs, and all that.

Certainly among the 'non-good' religions. It should be quite UNCOMMON for any of the Good-aligned religions to engage in any of that kind of behavior because it flies right in the face of their ideologies. Attempted redemption of evil or justified retaliation aside, Good-aligned religions have no place in forceful conversions and anyone making a claim (in the game world) should be looked on with some hefty amounts of skepticism. Detect Evil and Zone of Truth to be sure. It is one of the reasons why Evil is so insidious. Good tends to follow their own rules while Evil has no such self-limitations.

[Temperans]

DeathlessOne wrote:

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

So can religious conversion. Anyway, I figured a certain amount of violence went without saying.

PhilosophersProselytizers with clubs, and all that.

Certainly among the 'non-good' religions. It should be quite UNCOMMON for any of the Good-aligned religions to engage in any of that kind of behavior because it flies right in the face of their ideologies. Attempted redemption of evil or justified retaliation aside, Good-aligned religions have no place in forceful conversions and anyone making a claim (in the game world) should be looked on with some hefty amounts of skepticism. Detect Evil and Zone of Truth to be sure. It is one of the reasons why Evil is so insidious. Good tends to follow their own rules while Evil has no such self-limitations.

*Looks at the world wound and the mess caused by some genuine "followers of Iomedae" cause...* Yeah I am not buying that.

[DeathlessOne]

Temperans wrote:

*Looks at the world wound and the mess caused by some genuine "followers of Iomedae" cause...* Yeah I am not buying that.

Huh, wasn't aware we were talking about the Worldwound, only about "Proselytizers with clubs". Who, exactly, created it? What was the response? Oh? Crusaders seeking to STOP the intrusion of demons from the Abyss? Interesting. Sounds like 'justified retaliation' to me. Note, that I am not attempting to justify the actions of individuals that chose certain behaqviors, but keeping the issue limited to the actual tenents of the alignment descriptions.

Context matters. The universe (in Golarion) does not care how you justify your argument. Good, Evil, Chaos and Law are all measurable forces. Demonic presence on the face of Golarion is by no means an innocent, or victimless, event.

[Mudfoot]

Historically, many RL religions have gone in for very forcible conversions while claiming to be good, so I would expect some rather overzealous 'good' proselytisers in Golarion. Of course it's a bit different with real gods and objective good & evil, as well as the monotheism vs polytheism aspect.

[DeathlessOne]

Mudfoot wrote:

Historically, many RL religions have gone in for very forcible conversions while claiming to be good, so I would expect some rather overzealous 'good' proselytisers in Golarion. Of course it's a bit different with real gods and objective good & evil, as well as the monotheism vs polytheism aspect.

Yes, it is a VERY different situation entirely, and an over-zealous 'good' proselytizers will find out fairly quickly that they are on the wrong path when their god's displeasure is shown through various signs, loss of power, the need for an atonement, or an actual alignment shift. Real world religions have no objective methods to verify whether something is good or not, and no concrete way to define an objective moral standard that can be fallen short of.

I know it is my personal opinion and all, but, there is a very, VERY good reason it is called "Falling" (as in falling away). Good is an lofty ideal, Neutral is a muddied mess, and Evil is the ultimate hole of self-service and narcissism, so skilled at fooling others that it fools itself. As a GM, I've had the honor and duty to represent the myriad spectrum of what it means to be Good, Lawful, Chaotic, and Evil ... and I've got to admit that out of all the alignments, Evil is by far the widest ranging, and so simple it seems complex, of them all. It is insidious and almost imperceptible to those lost in its whispered promises. I'd say more harm is done with the small evils of everyday life than in the large scale manifestations, only due to how difficult it is to identify, pin down, and squash. Evil has the advantage of all of the alignments because it plays at the same table as all the others, but it has no intentions of playing by the rules when the situation suits it.

[Mudfoot]

Not all proselytisers are paladins, or clerics or casters of any description. Plenty of holier-than-thou loudmouths will be prepared to expound their interpretation of holy writ, whether it's through suppression of fun, liturgical form, the 'wrong' image of a god or saint, or whatever heresy they might imagine. They have no divine power to lose...which is potentially why they might feel the need to display their earnest faith to god. Nutters will nut. Especially if someone non-good is pulling the strings. There's an adventure plot there.

[UnArcaneElection]

DeathlessOne wrote:

Temperans wrote:

*Looks at the world wound and the mess caused by some genuine "followers of Iomedae" cause...* Yeah I am not buying that.

Huh, wasn't aware we were talking about the Worldwound, only about "Proselytizers with clubs". Who, exactly, created it? What was the response? Oh? Crusaders seeking to STOP the intrusion of demons from the Abyss? Interesting. Sounds like 'justified retaliation' to me. Note, that I am not attempting to justify the actions of individuals that chose certain behaqviors, but keeping the issue limited to the actual tenents of the alignment descriptions.

Context matters. The universe (in Golarion) does not care how you justify your argument. Good, Evil, Chaos and Law are all measurable forces. Demonic presence on the face of Golarion is by no means an innocent, or victimless, event.

My thoughts also for the most part. That said, a substantial force of Iomedae's followers did turn to non-good with the excuse of fighting the Demons (Inquisitor Hulrun being an example), and it sounds like Iomedae herself came to the hairy edge of falling. Judging at least from Starfinder times, it seems that she managed to pull out of the fall and improve herself since then, but it was way too close for comfort.

[Kasoh]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

My thoughts also for the most part. That said, a substantial force of Iomedae's followers did turn to non-good with the excuse of fighting the Demons (Inquisitor Hulrun being an example), and it sounds like Iomedae herself came to the hairy edge of falling. Judging at least from Starfinder times, it seems that she managed to pull out of the fall and improve herself since then, but it was way too close for comfort.

Iomedae has never been in danger of falling. That's just fanwank. And Hulrun was an inquisitor, who had no obligation to the good alignment.

Were these good writing decisions? That's debatable.

The Iomedaen faith is the punching bag of Paizo whenever they want an obstructionist good aligned power. Because PCs are the ones to solve problems no large scale organized effort can ever succeed, otherwise there's no adventure for the stars of the show.

[DeathlessOne]

Mudfoot wrote:

Not all proselytisers are paladins, or clerics or casters of any description. Plenty of holier-than-thou loudmouths will be prepared to expound their interpretation of holy writ, whether it's through suppression of fun, liturgical form, the 'wrong' image of a god or saint, or whatever heresy they might imagine. They have no divine power to lose...which is potentially why they might feel the need to display their earnest faith to god. Nutters will nut. Especially if someone non-good is pulling the strings. There's an adventure plot there.

Adventure plot non-withstanding, that problem is nothing that a detect alignment spell cannot solve (if they are 5th level or higher) or that inquisitors or actual practitioners of that faith blessed by the gods themselves cannot sort out. Even then, the gods can (and do) show their displeasure with signs even to those that they do not grant boons directly. Anyone with a least some knowledge of that particular religion can identify those signs.

Do bad actors exist, unknowing or knowingly? Certainly. But it is much easier to identify and resolve in the world of Golarion than in the real world, simply because we have objective measures in which to compare their words and behaviors.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

My thoughts also for the most part. That said, a substantial force of Iomedae's followers did turn to non-good with the excuse of fighting the Demons (Inquisitor Hulrun being an example), ...

The actions of individuals that contradict the teachings and objective moral code of an alignment or religion in Golarion do not reflect on the actual alignment or religion in question, though it might influence the perception of such. To borrow a phrase I've heard recently, you don't blame Beethoven for how poorly the pianist plays his music.

[Scavion]

Iomedae, Sarenrae and Desna are all pretty strong examples of Good deities who don't really have any qualms about forceful conversion.

Iomedae: Will straight up kill you if you dont do what she says.
Sarenrae: Has a handy radical deathcult for hundreds of years.
Desna: personally brainwashed a demon.

Me I just say Deities are above traditional explanations of morality and call it a day.

Proselytizing probably doesnt really happen in a conventional sense. A cleric shows up, helps out the community and most of the town ends up worshipping the deity. Multiple clerics in a town? Hijinks insues as the High Priests rabble at each other.

[Senko]

Scavion wrote:

Iomedae, Sarenrae and Desna are all pretty strong examples of Good deities who don't really have any qualms about forceful conversion.

Iomedae: Will straight up kill you if you dont do what she says.
Sarenrae: Has a handy radical deathcult for hundreds of years.
Desna: personally brainwashed a demon.

Me I just say Deities are above traditional explanations of morality and call it a day.

Proselytizing probably doesnt really happen in a conventional sense. A cleric shows up, helps out the community and most of the town ends up worshipping the deity. Multiple clerics in a town? Hijinks insues as the High Priests rabble at each other.

Well this is a mythic option . . .

Beyond Morality (Ex) (Mythic Adventures pg. 50): You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.

[CorvusMask]

Umm. I kinda get feeling from post you are on purpose taking worst interpretation of several gods, which probably makes devs sad since I get feeling they cringe at some previous takes (cult of the dawnflower being retconned is pretty clear sight they regret that one)

(I'll also think main reason why inquisitors haven't been bought back in 2e is that they don't make sense and devs are trying to come up with lore reason for them to exist)

But then Iomedae one is just straight up not true, even in the infamous AP scene people make jokes about. Even if PCs are evil and try to attack her, she doesn't kill them iirc :p And Knights of Lastwall makes mention of her trying to discourage the fanatical Iomedaens to be less of jerks by using means of showing them that she is displeased. Dunno if that is recent development or something she has supposedly always done, but I do kinda like its new development to be less hands off since clearly hands off means that minority of worshipers go to radical extends.

Sarenrae as said was apparently super forgiving of the neutral aligned cult until she got sick of them and basically got rid of them by showing her really obvious displeasure.

Desna one is just straight up lie. She as punishment didn't brainwash a demon, she restored demon's mortal memories and let them come to their own conclusion.

Edit: Beyond Morality is also pretty much not canon on golarion because its from lore generic book and beyond morality makes no sense in this setting.

[Scavion]

I dont play 2e so the retcons are irrelevant to me as are the "oh we dont do these morally gray things anymore" explanations.

To me, the variance in their actions makes them a little more believable imo. They're not perfect beings. Just well-intentioned all powerful creatures who have an almost alien view on the metaphysical war against Evil a bit differently than mortals.

Desna absolutely did brainwash that demon though. Demons are physical representations of the concept they embody. The succubus literally cant be a succubus if she isn't a chaotic evil lustful creature. They're amalgamations of hundreds to thousands of souls. Desna essentially erased the other personalities that demon embodied, created a central ruling one and imposed deific mind tinkering to get her where she wanted the demon to go.

[Kasoh]

Scavion wrote:

They're amalgamations of hundreds to thousands of souls. Desna essentially erased the other personalities that demon embodied, created a central ruling one and imposed deific mind tinkering to get her where she wanted the demon to go.

There is no definitive answer to how many souls a succubus is made out of. It can be one. Could be a dozen. Could be a million.

And whatever person Arueshalae was when Desna came across her she still was. She did not overwrite any of her personality. Made her remember the failed dreams of all her past lives though. Maybe that was cruel or had the potential to break her, but it was a sort of punishment for killing Desna's priest after all. There was no mind control on Arueshalae. She always had the choice to fall back into evil, which can happen depending on player actions.

[Senko]

CorvusMask wrote:

Umm. I kinda get feeling from post you are on purpose taking worst interpretation of several gods, which probably makes devs sad since I get feeling they cringe at some previous takes (cult of the dawnflower being retconned is pretty clear sight they regret that one)

(I'll also think main reason why inquisitors haven't been bought back in 2e is that they don't make sense and devs are trying to come up with lore reason for them to exist)

But then Iomedae one is just straight up not true, even in the infamous AP scene people make jokes about. Even if PCs are evil and try to attack her, she doesn't kill them iirc :p And Knights of Lastwall makes mention of her trying to discourage the fanatical Iomedaens to be less of jerks by using means of showing them that she is displeased. Dunno if that is recent development or something she has supposedly always done, but I do kinda like its new development to be less hands off since clearly hands off means that minority of worshipers go to radical extends.

Sarenrae as said was apparently super forgiving of the neutral aligned cult until she got sick of them and basically got rid of them by showing her really obvious displeasure.

Desna one is just straight up lie. She as punishment didn't brainwash a demon, she restored demon's mortal memories and let them come to their own conclusion.

Edit: Beyond Morality is also pretty much not canon on golarion because its from lore generic book and beyond morality makes no sense in this setting.

I do vaguely recall her killing PC's being in that module buts its more along the lines of "Insult her" warning, "Keep insulting her", stern warning, "Continue insulting her", divine punishment, "Bend over and moon her while indicating she suck it" death. You really have to keep pushing to get to the killing stage through multiple warnings and lesser punishments. Its that the lesser warnings and punishments felt out of character for her and inapropriate to the situation e.g. punishing the party for "not thinking" before choosing an option when said option is literally something they'd have already been thinking about for the previous couple of books or punishing a PC who may not worship her or even particularly like the situation their in and are only continuing on because they feel they have no choice.

[CorvusMask]

Scavion wrote:

I dont play 2e so the retcons are irrelevant to me as are the "oh we dont do these morally gray things anymore" explanations.

To me, the variance in their actions makes them a little more believable imo. They're not perfect beings. Just well-intentioned all powerful creatures who have an almost alien view on the metaphysical war against Evil a bit differently than mortals.

Desna absolutely did brainwash that demon though. Demons are physical representations of the concept they embody. The succubus literally cant be a succubus if she isn't a chaotic evil lustful creature. They're amalgamations of hundreds to thousands of souls. Desna essentially erased the other personalities that demon embodied, created a central ruling one and imposed deific mind tinkering to get her where she wanted the demon to go.

Umm. Its same lore and setting though, so your hostility towards 2e there feels like weird excuse to ignore the lore. Your comment on preferring gray interpretation of lore makes more sense to me than "its 2e so I can ignore it".

(I'm in the school of thought that I prefer that setting with objective alignment should have treatment of alignment be consistent :p and avoid BS of Faerun deities. I do get idea that "good deities can make mistakes" but there is line between "mistakes" and "giving permission by inaction" I find annoying when crossed.)

And I still think you are wrong about your Desna point there :p

@Senko(since I don't want to quote another message again since it makes post longer): I remember worst normal punishment essentially being "slapped back to material planet at -1 hp stabilized" but its been while since I read it since that scene is extremely weirdly written.

(as in, the trivia question scene mechanics doesn't make sense as what it is presented by what it states in character motivation to be. As result I can't interpret it as in character thing because it makes no sense both as gameplay thing nor as in universe thing. Gameplay wise there is no consequence, in universe wise she isn't trying to harm PCs. The damage for wrong answer is there purely because writer thought there had to be negative consequence for wrong answer besides not getting the bonus artifact.

It's just nonsensical scene and trying to make sense of it is futile.)

[Senko]

CorvusMask wrote:

Scavion wrote:

I dont play 2e so the retcons are irrelevant to me as are the "oh we dont do these morally gray things anymore" explanations.

To me, the variance in their actions makes them a little more believable imo. They're not perfect beings. Just well-intentioned all powerful creatures who have an almost alien view on the metaphysical war against Evil a bit differently than mortals.

Desna absolutely did brainwash that demon though. Demons are physical representations of the concept they embody. The succubus literally cant be a succubus if she isn't a chaotic evil lustful creature. They're amalgamations of hundreds to thousands of souls. Desna essentially erased the other personalities that demon embodied, created a central ruling one and imposed deific mind tinkering to get her where she wanted the demon to go.

Umm. Its same lore and setting though, so your hostility towards 2e there feels like weird excuse to ignore the lore. Your comment on preferring gray interpretation of lore makes more sense to me than "its 2e so I can ignore it".

(I'm in the school of thought that I prefer that setting with objective alignment should have treatment of alignment be consistent :p and avoid BS of Faerun deities. I do get idea that "good deities can make mistakes" but there is line between "mistakes" and "giving permission by inaction" I find annoying when crossed.)

And I still think you are wrong about your Desna point there :p

@Senko(since I don't want to quote another message again since it makes post longer): I remember worst normal punishment essentially being "slapped back to material planet at -1 hp stabilized" but its been while since I read it since that scene is extremely weirdly written.

(as in, the trivia question scene mechanics doesn't make sense as what it is presented by what it states in character motivation to be. As result I can't interpret it as in character thing because it makes no sense both as gameplay thing nor as in universe thing. Gameplay wise there is no...

You're right I'd forgotten about the auto-stabilize (just took a look), mainly because I agree it just doesn't make sense for her character or in the context of the game. Which is why I completely rewrote the entire thing in case I should ever run it.

There is no "Awaken the heroes by massive sonic blasts" which frankly would make me if I were there go "Ok, bye this is your problem now I'm off to Osirion always wanted to study magic there." and I've not just spent months risking my life trying to stop a literal invasion of demons. In my rewrite the consequences of failing all the questions is you get the artifact to help you and she hopes she's making the right choice because she know's even if your not what she wanted the best hope. Answer some of them in a way she considers correct and you get rewarded. If you answer all her questions correctly (in her opinion) and you convince her you truly are heroes after her own mortal days resulting in her granting one of the greater boons a diety can give a mortal you get an extra path ability. May be overpowered but hey you're playing mythic heroes its the one time a player should feel their characters a demigod striding Golarion in my opinion.

As long as you don't actually attack her worst case is you get out of there with a few items to help stop Deskari and a sense of the power gap between mortals and gods. On seeing Iomedae make a DC 30 will save. Fail and spend 1d12 rounds gibbering on your knees (forced down by the power pulsing from her) at a being beyond your comprehension before you manage to pull yourself together, succeed and get a sense that you are gazing on a goddess in the same way one gazes on the sun through leaded glass she is holding back most of her power and compressing her nature to avoid overwhelming you.

[Mightypion]

One of my PCs did a bit more then moon her (he claimed diplomatic immunity to sonic damage on account of being Nocticulas herald and ambassador, Iomedae demanded to see his credentials, well, guess where Nocticula put her demon lord rune on his body) and survived.

I am playing it again as a PC, with a secret sidegoal to turn Nocticula into a CN deity that includes the humor, booze, and mischief domains.

I think he scene is best played in the following way:

Heroes came back from Abyss. Iomedae is worried that Nocticula got her hooks into them, and if the GM played Nocticula right she probably did.

Perhaps have Sarenrae, Shelyn, Desna, maybe Gorum or Calistria(as a bit of a lawyer for a pro Nocticulan PC) show up, not neccessarily a trial but an interview.

There are actually plenty of options to have meaningfull but right choices depending on the party here. If the party insists on staying semi allied with Nocticula, Iomedae is pissed, but more chaotic gods may be pleased.

If the party stays super holier then though, continue as written, or the party pretends to break with Nocticula, but stays clandestinely allied, perhaps earning Calistria respect from this.

Other option: Convince one or more gods that Nocticula is serious about redemption.

[UnArcaneElection]

Mightypion wrote:

One of my PCs did a bit more then moon her (he claimed diplomatic immunity to sonic damage on account of being Nocticulas herald and ambassador, Iomedae demanded to see his credentials, well, guess where Nocticula put her demon lord rune on his body) and survived.

{. . .}

Was this by any chance a Forrest Gump type of character? (Although I don't think Iomedae would have much in common with Lyndon Johnson . . . .)

[Mightypion]

Peak chaotic fun murder hobo. Had a very funny show trial in Alyushinyrra, (at Shamiras place) where he trashtalked Baphomet in front of Shamira by a combination of "Zaporohziahn cossak write a reply to Ottoman Sultan" and the "French taunting" scenes from Monty Python, dueled Hephzamirahs Half Minotaur Half Balor Doomguard, and then asked Shamira for a small boon in return for the delivered entertainment, asking her to perfectly grill the dead minotaur, before inviting he assembled demons, including Hephzamirah, in for the "feast",
Personally serving a "choice part" to Hephzamirah, which massively humiliated her in front of very powerful demons, and considerably reduced morale among her remaining bodyguards.

I think some GMs would have dropped him to CE for this, beyond morality though so Yolo :).