Hi All,
So currently we are playing Wrath of the Righteous at 4 level and the party composition is:
Goblin, Barbarian (Mad Dog) [Damage dealer]
Half Elf, Summoner (Synthetist) [Tank]
Duergar, Zen Archer [Rogue/Scout, Damage Dealer]
Half-Orc, Scarred Witch Doctor [Healer, Debuffer, Buffer, CC]
As you can see the party is quite powerful, we dont mess around, we build powerful characters always. Our DM knows it and allow us to pick almost anything (even if is banned in most games), but in exchange he throws everything at us and rises the CR as much as he see fit.
We have play like this for some years and we love it [have lost plenty of chars my self but I see it as challenge], but currently we have a problem: Stacking Fear Effects are killing us and I have not figure out how to protect the party from them (without making a Paladin of course).
Lets create a hypothetical scenario, assume the above party at level 9, we are going trough a narrow dungeon corridor and we get surprised by 4 shadow demons. The 4 shadow demons use their "Fear" at will, and hit the party with it (to make it easy assume everyone saved all 4 fear effects, although this is highly unlikely).
Since Fear gives you Shaken for 1 round even if you save, and fear effects stack, the 4 shadow demons will move the hole party to Cowering (you take no actions, have no Dex to ac and -2 to ac) 1 round. Next round one of the shadow demons keeps using his fear at will maintaining the cowering status to all the party, the other 3 shadow demons proceed to "Clean Duty", party wiped, nothing you could do about that.
The only spells I have found that makes you immune to fear effects are "Greater Heroism" for which I have to wait until level 11, and Mind Blank which is even higher. So my question is, how do you protect your party against stacking fear effects?? (and before you suggested it, protection from evil will not work, and Remove Fear is a "Reactive" spell, no "Proactive" so it will not prevent the above tactic either).
Anyone? =(
Padma Blossom? Your barbarian won't be happy at losing the morale bonuses from rage, but if you really need immunity then that works.
Take a look at the list here. There are a few decent options.
Also, if your GM allows stuff from 3.5 Paizo adventure paths, there is this ring.
Padma Blossom? Your barbarian won't be happy at losing the morale bonuses from rage, but if you really need immunity then that works.
Take a look at the list here. There are a few decent options.
Also, if your GM allows stuff from 3.5 Paizo adventure paths, there is this ring.
Thank you Snowblind! That items list sounds like exactly what i was looking for (in level 5 as scarred witch doctor I can "Enchant" my mask with stuff so maybe I will be able to make my GM to agree to at least get the "Inmunity to fear effects" as an enchant for the mask.
My, that list looks familiar. :-)
Take a level of the PrC Chevalier. You get an Aura of Courage that is the same as a Paladin. You probably meet the prereqs. Too bad you have to wait until level 7 to take it.
As to the example, I don't think the Fear stacks. See PRD:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
/cevah
@Cevah, specific overrides general, fear effects specifically stack (see "becoming even more fearful").
BUT they stack up to panicked, cowering is not in the mix.
OP, your GM is either using a house rule, or got something wrong.
Agreed, but which is more specific? Duplicate Spell or Fear Stacking?
Expect table variation with this one.
/cevah
PS:
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Agreed, but which is more specific? Duplicate Spell or Fear Stacking?
Expect table variation with this one.
/cevah
PS:
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
It’s pretty obvious that the rule of fear effects stacking is more specific. Fear effects are subset of all effects. The rule of stacking applies to all effects so fear is more specific.
Agreed, but which is more specific? Duplicate Spell or Fear Stacking?
Expect table variation with this one.
/cevah
PS:
Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
The rule in the book says fear effects stack. I think it's pretty clear. One could argue that since it's not specifically said that the fear effects have to be from different sources.
Ah, yes forgot about that bit in panicked condition. But, unless they are grappled or something, they can always run.
The fear is from a Spell-Like Ability. They are defined to "work just like spells". Multiple Fear spells would not stack per the spell stacking rule. Thus the quandary. Which way does it go?
1) Specific Fear effect stacking rule?
or
2) Specific Spell effect non-stacking rule?
/cevah
Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.
Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
Above is the full text of the fear condition. It specifically states that it can be caused by spells, magic items, and monsters. The last section also states that fear effects are cumulative. If you look closely it never says it stacks. Stacking means you add up the bonus or penalty. So two -2 penalties become -4. Fear does not work like that. If you are shaken and are subject to another effect that makes you shaken you become frightened in addition to being shaken. If you are then subject to another condition that causes you to become shaken you become panicked in addition to being shaken. Notice that at no time do you ever become shaken more than once. You are still only taking a -2 on all attack rolls, saves, skill checks and ability checks. If the effects stacked you would take -2 per shaken condition, but that does not happen. So technically fear effects do not stack, but most people will consider it easier to understand by saying they stack.
Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear....
Above is the full text of the fear condition. It specifically states that it can be caused by spells, magic items, and monsters. The last section also states that fear effects are cumulative. If you look closely it never says it stacks. Stacking means you add up the bonus or penalty. So two -2 penalties become -4. Fear does not work like that. If you are shaken and are subject to another effect that makes you...
"spells, magic items, and monsters" looks kind of general. :-)
/cevah
Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear....
Above is the full text of the fear condition. It specifically states that it can be caused by spells, magic items, and monsters. The last section also states that fear effects are cumulative. If you look closely it never says it stacks. Stacking means you add up the bonus or penalty. So two -2 penalties become -4. Fear does not work like that. If you are shaken and are subject to another effect that makes you...
"spells, magic items, and monsters" looks kind of general. :-)
/cevah
The point is that it specifically states that fear effects are cumulative. RAW they do not stack they are cumulative. You can argue all you want which is more specific, but that does not change the way it works. If you are shaken and another effect causes you to become shaken you become frightened, unless the description of the effect says that it is not cumulative it is.
The point is that it specifically states that fear effects are cumulative. RAW they do not stack they are cumulative. You can argue all you want which is more specific, but that does not change the way it works. If you are shaken and another effect causes you to become shaken you become frightened, unless the description of the effect says that it is not cumulative it is.
Interesting point.
/cevah
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you need:
Remove Fear
School: abjuration
Level: Bard: 1; Cleric: 1; Inquisitor: 1; Oracle: 1; Shaman: 1; Skald: 1; Warpriest: 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: one creature plus one additional creature per four levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 10 minutes; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: yes (harmless)
Source: Core Rulebook
Summary: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
You instill courage in the subject, granting it a +4 morale bonus against fear effects for 10 minutes. If the subject is under the influence of a fear effect when receiving the spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell.
Remove fear counters and dispels cause fear.
On the other hand, Intimidate refers to it as "stacking."
This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened.But overall, it seems to me that the "Becoming Even More Fearful" rules should take precedence, even when it is the same effect multiple times, unless there is something specifically prohibiting it.
This is an specific exception to the cumulative effect.
Swallow your Fear is a good low level semi-solution.
But really, are you expecting the GM to throw a blatant "You must have this spell to ride" encounter at you? If so, you may as well leave now. The GM can ALWAYS make up an encounter like that.
Calm Emotions and Unbreakable Heart are my go-to anti-fear spells.
Calm Emotions and Unbreakable Heart are my go-to anti-fear spells.
As he says, those are reactionary spells. Since they are Shaken even on a successful save in this scenario, and they would stack up to Panicked that way, they wouldn't be able to cast them.
Though, use of Swallow your Fear as a pre-buff, combined with Calm Emotions would likely work well.
Cheap. Stacks with bravery.
And does not work.
When worn, the ring of the sublime protects its wearer from fear effects as if constantly under the effects of remove fear.
You instill courage in the subject, granting it a +4 morale bonus against fear effects for 10 minutes. If the subject is under the influence of a fear effect when receiving the spell, that effect is suppressed for the duration of the spell.
You get the +4 bonus while wearing the ring. You do not get the suppress fear effect as that is a function of receiving the spell.
/cevah
Well, yeah, but people were drawing to attention to the fact that in other places the rules just say that they're "cumulative," not that they "stack," and thus that the "stacking" rules wouldn't necessarily apply.
The sentence in Intimidate heavily implies that the standard way fear effects add up on top of one another is considered "stacking," and that the term is used interchangeably with "cumulative."
My actual rule book and the Pathfinder PRD do not mention stacking. The D20Pfsrd is the one that mentions stacking. Below is the text from the Pathfinder PRD and the Core Rule Book.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
This is from the D20Pfsrd.
Demoralize Opponent
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
As you can see the Actual rule book does not use the term stacking.
The wand does not work because all the fear effects occur in the surprise round, leaving you panicked before it is even your turn.
/cevah