PCs are L8 and just finished a mission so not currently under a time crunch. 2 of the PCs are a Wizard (Fire Elementalist)8 and a Paladin 8 with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Those 2 PCs have gotten buy in from the other 2 PCs to spend 3 weeks of Downtime so that they can make a Weapon, some Armor and a few Wondrous Items respectively.
That leaves 2 other PCs with 3 weeks of Downtime. One is a U-Monk 8 with Profession (Courtesan) who is perfectly content just running his business, adding Rooms and Teams to grow the organization, and making a couple Gather Info checks here and there for rumors among his clientele he might be able to exploit.
The other PC however is a U-Rogue 8. The player at the end of last night's session was visibly upset but begrudgingly agreed to the 3 week Downtime. Then, just as I was packing up I overheard her say "well I don't know what I'M s'posed to do for three weeks! I'M not crafting anything! I guess I'll just sit around my bar since I don't have any gold left."
So... suggestions? I know people hate the SRD, but I did send her the info there about Blackmail, Infiltrating another organization, Coerce an NPC, etc. Even still, I'm open to ideas other folks have used in their own campaigns to keep non-crafting PCs interested/engaged in long amounts of Downtime.
Last, but certainly not least, elaborate social encounters or extended roleplaying is out with this player. She has no patience or enjoyment in such encounters, so getting involved in some extended intrigue is out as well. Thanks in advance!
Well, since it’s downtime, and I doubt you require your players to actively RP all of their downtime crafting and profession checks… you could offer her a downtime “quest” and rather than do any sort of extended RP with it, just do a bit of quick overview and have her make some skill checks. Full RP isn’t always required for a downtime side job. If a player isn’t interested in extended RP sessions while other players have downtime, don’t force them to, you can just as easily adapt the same downtime encounters you would have offered them a chance to RP into quick little skill check events with little to no RP involved.
my level 7 fighter is still working on his full-plate armor - week 22 out of 40~ (with +10 to craft(armor) and taking 10 it takes over 39 weeks to make one)
Its a player issue, 100%. I get that. The PC has a business, an inn, but the player barely gave the place a name. She doesn't enjoy RP so she doesn't network with other NPCs despite having the second best social skills in the party. The rogue toyed with the idea of starting a thieve's guild or running a black market herself, but that never came to pass.
Essentially this player is frustrated because, when they take a long DT, the 2 PCs with magic item creation feats end up having more magic items than she does. They all came home with a little over 9k in gold to spend. She spent 1 day in the Large City they call home and picked up 2 new items, then she's spending a little more time having a cloak upgraded.
If they get 3 weeks though, the paladin is going to have 4 new or upgraded items, and the wizard will have 5. They'll also have tons of new consumables. More power for your character is exciting and fun, sitting around your bar making a handful of GP/day is boring (at least to this player).
I mean normally in past campaigns, I'd make up a guild or a business rival that takes a shot at the rogue, or I'd engage with them in some kind of intrigue. There'd be extended skill challenges where they steal some jewels, or crash a senator's ball, or whatever. I run into a few challenges though in this campaign.
At the players' insistence, I've been handing out XP since the beginning of the campaign, so I can't generate a side quest challenging enough that it gives the rogue PC too much extra XP that leveling might become unbalanced. The player doesn't enjoy RP and doesn't take a lot of initiative, so a lot of the "intrigue" options are out. Lastly several of the new magic items the other PCs are making are either going to non-adventuring cohorts or are meant to benefit the whole party, so I don't want to give the rogue a reward so rich that she ends up more powerful than those other PCs.
I did send the list of DT activities. Specifically for a rogue, these include, but are not limited to: Alibi, Blackmail, Coerce, Gather Information, Heist, Infiltrate, Recruit for an Organization, Scheme for an Upcoming Adventure or Smuggle.
Right now I'm leaning towards a Heist. I'm also debating over making a couple short skill challenges that would also result in some free Capital or other minor rewards. If other folks have other suggestions I'm all ears.
Oh, and ZZA; by non-crafters I mean folks with no magic item creation feats. Ironically this rogue PC has Craft (Bows) +8 and also has a bowyer's workshop for a +2 masterwork tools bonus, so she COULD be crafting mwk bows for everyone, maybe a composite longbow for the paladin... but she's not.
It sounds to me that the real root of the issue is either that A) the player in question never speaks up and asks either of the magic item crafters if they could help in creating them something as well or B) the magic item crafters never offer to help with crafting magic items for the other players… if either of those are the case then there might be a bit of animosity between the players over it which has lead to the non-crafters hating downtime since at the rate things are going every time they get extended downtime their own character falls further and further behind in relative power to the crafters.
It might be a player issue as you stated… but it might also be deeper than that… I would suggest talking with your players about it and see if you can work something out to help narrow the power gap.
Since my group modified our rules (a long time ago) to always use Automatic Bonus Progression and that item crafting feats effectively gave you an increase in WBL (25% for one feat, 50% for two feats) or completely banned crafting (depending on GM) the characters spend their time doing "whatever they're interested in" and not trying to gain a mechanical advantage which is what crafting or other money related things attempt to do.
Anyways, in terms of your player and their character, hopefully you have an idea of what they're interested in.
It sounds like they own a bar, so perhaps business it booming due to a local holiday or trade caravan that mordaciously keeps them on par for WBL with everyone else in the group. Assuming the group is kept at WBL.
(If you don't get it, I think it's very important everyone stay at the same pace on the wealth treadmill since it's really an equivalent partner to the level treadmill and letting anyone get significantly ahead or behind the curve creates problems. You just have to come up with creative justifications for how that happens.)
@Chell: as far as player dynamics go, its actually option 3: the last big stretch of DT the magic item crafters put their own stuff on hold so they could craft for the rogue and monk. Now this time they want to spend time on stuff for themselves and their cohorts.
@Clax-off: I agree with you that keeping everyone at the same pace is important. In the future I'll use the ABP system, if for no other reason than to avoid foolishness like this.
Rogue, eh? What kind of personality/background for the character are we talking? That has a great deal of influence in what sorts of downtime activities they might want to do.
Normally, I'd suggest the rogue look for a thieves' guild to join or form their own guild by recruiting teams and setting up a front for a base of operations. But you did mention they're not the RPing type of player. That itself leads to issues when using the downtime activities, since those rules presume that players want their characters to have lives outside of the adventure.
If the players have a clue where their next adventure is going to take them though, the rogue could spend that downtime activity engaging in research about the area they're going to; what enemies they might encounter, details on important persons, etc. This could probably involve the character giving free rounds on drinks to gain Influence, which would then be used to undergo Influential Research.
If they're not totally happy with their present choices for character advancement, they could spend some time retraining feats, skills, rogue talents, etc. However, this requires gold, so perhaps the rogue joins a thieves' guild to acquire funds, then makes use of the guild for retraining.
Ultimately though, it's an issue of figuring out what drives the player in the game.
How long in real-life-time is the crafters' downtime going to take? I don't see you roleplaying out the forging of armor or a bubbling cauldron. What is this player concerned that she's going to miss out on? A few minutes of die rolls at the table?
If she feels like her character is going to miss out on having some sort of impact in the game during downtime... I feel like that's on her, especially considering some of the other posts I've seen you make about how the group is less interested in roleplaying than they are in hacking and/or slashing.
But, I don't know, you could have her do a couple heists for the local guild, or something. Just don't make the downtime take longer than it needs to trying to give her something meaningful to do. That's not really what downtime is for (unless it's PC-driven), and you run the risk of the rogue overshadowing the others who have taken the initiative of what to do with their characters.
maybe you can find an NPC that needs a bow? or she works on a heist to steal a magic item only to find it's her bow or a party item (they are probably the richest people in the area)?
Well in past DT sessions what I've done is have folks tell me what they want to do, we figure out the timing of those things, and 1/week I roll to see if there's a Downtime Event. If there is one I briefly play that event out with the player, ad libbing some details and having them make the appropriate checks.
For example, several sessions ago during the last big DT, the rogue had just completed her inn and was doing the Promote your Business action. During that week I rolled the "theft" DT Event. A local gang called the Street Claws took advantage of her promotion, came in and swiped some of the inn's good tableware, sculpted pewter mugs and such.
Instead of spending 9 GP to replace the stuff, I allowed the rogue to track down the Street Claws. She made a Diplomacy check to Gather Info about where they hide out in the Slums, she made a Stealth check to approach the place unobserved, and then she disabled the poor lock to enter their dilapidated row house. Rather than just steal back her property, the rogue made a non-lethal charge attack on one of the gang, dropping him cold, and then made an Intimidate check to warn them never to come back to the bar. They haven't since.
As to the rogue's personality... I honestly don't know. The player doesn't take initiative. Instead she's task driven; she normally gives no input into what mission the party undertakes in the megadungeon, but once AT the dungeon she always moves 20'-60' ahead of the party, using the Message spell, and scouts ahead directing the party to move to a set location once the coast is clear.
So, when you tell the player "you've got 3 weeks Downtime, what do you do?" Her response is deer-in-the-headlights. However, if you say "during the next 3 weeks, you need to prepare for the next delve into the dungeon; what do you do?" She springs into action because you've given her a task to focus on. Hopefully that makes sense.
Anyway, BECAUSE she's so task-oriented, this rogue has been really good at staying organized on building and expanding on her inn. During past DT sessions she's built rooms and teams not just for an inn but for a brewery, a taproom and even some secret defenses underground. She employs standard laborers and lackeys, but she also has a team of guards as well that work as bouncers. Finally, several of her followers are a band of NPC-classed experts with Perform among other skills.
The business delivers a small but solid profit and can also generate Goods, Labor and Influence. Many DT sessions are only a few days long so I don't bother with DT Events, but on the rare occasion they're longer they never lasted more than 2 weeks.
Last session the wizard and paladin players actually suggested taking over a month and getting everyone's weapons, armor and items made. The rogue player wanted to get right back into the dungeon; for one, SHE wasn't crafting items and didn't have the GP to pay the other players to make HER anything, but also the dungeon tends to backfill with monsters or reinforcements. As a compromise, the players settled on 3 weeks.
No, not much of this DT will happen in game so I don't think the player is worried about sitting around bored while I work with the other players. Rather I think that making items makes the other 2 players important, valuable, special, so because her character can't do that she doesn't get to bask in that same glow. Not being an initiative-taker, this player can't think of a goal or objective on her own to focus on resolving.
Thus, by suggesting a number of tasks for her to focus on I'm hoping to point the rogue in a direction so she can achieve something that helps her feel as focused on and special as the other item crafting characters. Make sense?
Are you guys roleplaying the down time? I don't think there needs to be a whole lot happening while the 2 spell casters are crafting. Just say the event happened in between the play sessions. That way you don't have a bored player.
I would give her tasks, for example, know parts of enemies stat blocks in advances, know possible sources of dissent in their ranks, perhaps she can turn her NPC experts in spies and they make intel reports for her?
I WANT to, but that's not what the players want. The only thing I sort of RP is the DT Events. And by "roleplay" I mean I name the event, such as "theft," make up a quick improvised narrative as to what happened, and give the player the options listed in the event - either pay some money or track the perps down.
The players react and then I follow the skill check prompts in the event or, in the case of the "theft" event since "track them down" is pretty open ended, I make up some skill checks. The player rolls them, I narrate the results, case closed.
The players in this campaign play the systems of the game, not the roles of their characters, if that makes sense. Like, during DT they never say "I go to the bar and get a drink;" instead it's "I go to the bar and use Diplomacy to get info about that weird symbol we saw in the dungeon." The only reason my players have businesses and organizations is because I told them that we'd be using the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign.
The paladin for example has lots of different skills and focuses, out of combat. He has Craft (Armor, Weapons), Handle Animal, and Knowledge (Religion). As such he's built rooms & teams for smithing armor and weapons, a stable, and several temple rooms as well. Now with the Leadership feat I gave everyone for free he's got a ton of followers so he's using them to add to the business.
What exactly IS this business? The player couldn't say. He sees it as several smaller businesses, contained in one Roman-esque strip mall of shops, rooms and buildings. Ok... but do they have names? No, he doesn't have names, clearly defined layouts, he can't even say definitively where on the city map, in the district I have all the PCs' businesses located, his stuff is at.
In short, these are words in a spreadsheet for the player. They are a tool for generating GP or Capital. The player doesn't close his eyes and imagine the sounds and smells of the stable, or the clanging of the forges, or how the light catches in the stained glass of the altar room.
So... I have resigned to keep it as much about rolling dice for a resolution as possible.
For the rogue: there is a competitor in town. A new bar that is cleaner, has more stuff at better prices and almost magically draws customers has popped up basically overnight, cutting into the rogue's profits.
Cue a series of skill checks to scout out the place, try to find dirt on the proprietors and drive them out of business (or at least make your place more successful). Depending on number and degree of successes, the rogue can 'inherit' some stuff for the bar - basically free BP - and possibly some ties to an upcoming adventure you have planned.
You mentioned this player needs to b given tasks, that the mega dungeon tends to backfill with enemies, and that once a task is given she is on point and focused. With the social skills and underlings the rogue has access to, why not task her with coming up with solutions to stop the backfill. Start making plans to franchise and open trade depots with the inhabitants of the clear/safe parts of the dungeon. She can take point on this, but collaboration with her fellow players will probably come in at some point.
