As far as I can tell, an inventors weapon innovation starts as a level 0 or 1 item. It seems like you can add runes as normal, but you cant get a future weapon and turn it into your new innovation. And the only way to aquire a precious material weapon is to make one (or buy etc.) A whole new item, you cannot simply turn an existing item into a precious material weapon.
It's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...
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For now, your best bet is to ask your GM if you'd be allowed to voluntarily destroy your Weapon Innovation a few levels into your career when you have access to Special Materials and the Weapon Innovation Level meets or exceeds the level of the material you want to use so you can use that to reconstruct it.
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A breakthrough modification adds silver and cold iron at the same time and a revolutionary modification makes it all 7 skymetals. If you want a precious weapon innovation you take those.
A breakthrough modification adds silver and cold iron at the same time and a revolutionary modification makes it all 7 skymetals. If you want a precious weapon innovation you take those.
Right, but the breakthrough modification for silver and cold iron is pretty unclear (what grade is it? That might seem trivial but definitely matters when it comes to putting runes on the weapon, and other stats) and the other modification for skymetals specifies it only counts as skymetals for triggering weaknesses and the like (no other special abilities).
Okay, if we discounted the rune part, what about hardness, HP, and BT?
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Okay, if we discounted the rune part, what about hardness, HP, and BT?Here's the table, when it comes down to extrapolate Hit points, Broken threshold and Hardness.
If an object goes onder multiple categories, discuss it with your DM.
Right. Which is why I'm hoping for more RAW answers. Ask your dm stuff, for stuff like this, drives me bonkers.
I've ran into three so far, and I know of more. I was just hoping for RAW counterplay to something that should be easily dealt with if a character prepares for it. Especially if your entire character revolves around their item.
In over 2 years I found 1 enemy that dealt damage to weapons, and it was a unique one.
Spells starting from 1st level can damage objects: Spells like Withering Grasp or Rusting Grasp are possible on casters and also highlight why it's important to know what material the item is made out of since one affects organic items and one affects metal ones. Rusting Grasp also shows why it's important to know f it becomes the metals in question or just acts like them as it states that Precious materials are [or can] be immune to rust.
Oh, I was just talking about enemies targeting armors, weapons and shields.
I was too; Apollyon, Azathoth, Cyth-V'sug, Ghlaunder, Groetus, Kerkamoth, Mother Vulture, Nhimbaloth, Shyka, The Green Mother, Trelmarixian, Urgathoa, Xhamen-Dor offer the decay domain and that offers the Withering Grasp 1st level focus spell: this means that if you're fighting against those religions in a game, what can be affected by that spell is pretty important. It'll really depend on the individual DM and whether attacking/destroying equipment is an OK tactic.
- Armors and weapons too, since there are 2 categories out of 3 ( flat, items and structures), and though clunky, is pretty straightforward once you know where to look at.
I'll disagree with you on this. "If an object consists of more than one material, the GM typically uses the statistics for the strongest material involved. For instance, breaking a wall made of paper panels over a woven wooden framework would require damaging thin wood, not paper. However, the GM might choose the weaker material based on the item’s function. For instance, breaking the wooden handle of a hammer rather than its iron head would still render the item unusable. Sometimes an item is even less sturdy than the Hardness and Hit Points provided for a thin object; for instance, a twig doesn’t take 9 damage to break, even though it’s made of thin wood. Similarly, a particularly sturdy item or structure might have even higher Hardness and Hit Points."
This means that unless your weapon is 100% 1 material and specifically listed in the examples, you can never be confident that it'll be the stats under any one Material Statistics. For instance, is a great club thin wood [club is listed as this] or wood [chest as example]? Both the great club and chest are 2 Bulk so they are of a similar 'heft', but other items like doors and tables are likely more so... *shrugs shoulders* Similarly, for a Sickle, Bladed Scarf or Dueling Spear where you have about 1/2 and 1/2 materials... Do you go with one of the materials or strike some middle ground?
Personally I don't see 'it rarely comes up so don't worry about it' as a good reason to not worry about your weapon breaking. When it does happen, unless you have backup casting or something (which shouldn't be expected of every character) your character is rendered lame. Also, if it so rare, then why can't there be counterplay? Would it be so overpowered to have some feats/spells/items that provide solutions against the 15 or so monsters, the handful of spells, that can destroy equipment?
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I mean I don't think there's any argument against that, no. It's terrible when it happens, which is probably why Paizo removed most ways to do it (who knows why they left in the ones that could) and it sucks, especially for someone like your character, to be faced with item destruction that is very difficult to mitigate.
It's terrible when it happens, which is probably why Paizo removed most ways to do it (who knows why they left in the ones that could)
They DID remove most ways to do so but JUST from the core book. Other books still have low level ways to blow up equipment: Withering Grasp doesn't even require an unattended item, for instance, and it's a 1st level focus spell... So there is nothing to stop foes [or PC's] from obliterating wooden objects with impunity. At 1d12 negative damage plus 1d4 persistent negative damage [+1d12 and +1/level] (x2 crit) vs hardness of 0-3 and hp 12-20 [thin and normal wood items], most weapons don't stand a chance and it's clear it's a spell intended to attack items... I can understand why PFS houseruled it only work on unattended items. :(
Designer
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It's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...
It is, actually! The weapon you choose for your innovation has to be a level 0 or level 1 weapon; the lowest level weapons made from precious materials are low grade cold iron and low grade silver, which are level 2. So you can't choose a weapon made out of precious materials for your innovation. What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation.
Well, domains are for players.
Just for players? I think you're wrong there. The Divine Warden, Bestiary 3 pg. 72, lists "Divine Domain Spells The divine warden selects two of its patron deity's domains.". Why wouldn't a divine wardens of Apollyon, Azathoth, Cyth-V'sug, Ghlaunder, Groetus, Kerkamoth, Mother Vulture, Nhimbaloth, Shyka, The Green Mother, Trelmarixian, Urgathoa or Xhamen-Dor have them? That's also not taking into account various specific NPC's from AP's. So it's NOT just a player issue. NPC's are JUST as capable of having domain spells as PC's.
If players push on using the domain to crush stuff, I can't consider it Paizo's fault ( and I do not expect them to address something which should probably raise an eyebrow at any table ).
THEY clearly thought that made a mistake as Squiggit pointed out: they purged most of the spells that could target objects for a reason, and that reason wasn't players and domain spells.
I can understand that some people would like to have a specific entry per item, but I see it as a whole waste of time, because of the required time, along with the fact it's something which is going to occour a couple of time in your whole experience.
It wouldn't need to be a per item thing though: broad categories could be given [metal weapons with 1 bulk with modifiers for finesse, material ect, make the base for 2 bulk weapons with same modifiers from before...]. Same for build in class items like an inventors inventions and a wizards Bonded Item.
As for structures, the dm is going to use the statistic they want depends the situation.
I don't have an issue with structures as is as they aren't normally PC made/used and if they are, it's easy enough for them to build one that matches the stats they want [by making it as thin/thick as they want].
To think that Paizo might have to bother themselves with stuff like that would make me sad ( waste of time which could have be spent for other purposes ).
They you must already be quite sad as they already did think about it:
"[FAQ] Pages 316-407 and 573: Damaging spells and items meant to harm PCs do way too much damage for your gear to survive if it could be targeted, so such spells almost never are supposed to be able to damage objects. A few target lines slipped by with "creatures or objects." Remove the ability to target or damage objects from acid splash, acid arrow, eclipse burst, polar ray, sunburst, fire ray, moon beam, force bolt, and the horn of blasting. Limit hydraulic push to "creatures and unattended objects."
Still seem to me a minor addition to the game, unless deliberately looking for it.
That they modified spells that could have also be used to deal damage to items/weapons/armors, imo, just encourages players not to go against the system.
Not really though as there ARE spells left that are there specifically to damage items and can affect attended items. This means that is a player/DM WANTS to damage items, there are intended ways to do so.
I am sure we play the same game, but until now I have found a good reason to hit structures, weapons, armors, and so on ( I repeat myself, but apart from very specific enemies I encountered just once in over 2 years, no worries at all ).
I've found the occasional player or DM that uses the tactic just like some people loved to use sunder in PF1 It might only matter in 1 in 10 or 20 games but when it does, it really matters.
It's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...It is, actually! The weapon you choose for your innovation has to be a level 0 or level 1 weapon; the lowest level weapons made from precious materials are low grade cold iron and low grade silver, which are level 2. So you can't choose a weapon made out of precious materials for your innovation. What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation.
But, to be clear, those modifications (at least impossible alloy) don't give any attributes other than triggering weaknesses, correct? Also manifold alloy doesn't say what grade the silver/cold iron is (which affects runes and hardness). Unless I'm missing something? Sorry to jump on you like this, but it would be great to get clarification
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But, to be clear, those modifications (at least impossible alloy) don't give any attributes other than triggering weaknesses, correct? Also manifold alloy doesn't say what grade the silver/cold iron is (which affects runes and hardness). Unless I'm missing something? Sorry to jump on you like this, but it would be great to get clarificationIt's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...It is, actually! The weapon you choose for your innovation has to be a level 0 or level 1 weapon; the lowest level weapons made from precious materials are low grade cold iron and low grade silver, which are level 2. So you can't choose a weapon made out of precious materials for your innovation. What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation.
To me, it's a straightforward. It's a class feature. The object state of it is always in some state of flux (you can remake it in a day if it's destroyed, you can reconfigure it in a day or less, and you can even ultimately change it to something completely different). As such, all of its rules are self contained.
It begins with the same statistics as a level 0 common simple or martial weapon of your choice, or another level 0 simple or martial weapon to which you have access. You can instead use the statistics of a 1st-level common simple or martial weapon of your choice, or another 1st-level simple or martial weapon to which you have access, but you must pay the monetary Price for the weapon.
An innovation weapon can have fundamental and property runes added to it in the same way as an ordinary weapon.
So, no, you can't turn Level 2 or greater weapons (e.g., cold iron, silver, adamantine) into an innovation weapon.
You can give them the property to trigger weaknesses to various metals by taking the appropriate Breakthrough or Revolutionary modification.
You can put runes on it following the rules for ordinary weapons.
The hardness and HP are defined the ordinary weapon whose stats it is based upon.
Still is optional ( as you also recognized in your last part ). And partially, eventually, to the DM.
*shrug* well, yeah in the same way anything in the game is optional: I mean if no in a game ever shield blocks you don't need a shield's hardness and hp either but I'd say it'd be a problem if an element of the game like that was missing/incomplete/lacking too.
We just disagree how important is to have, knowing it might happen or never happen.
Yep. Myself, I play in enough different tables that if anything could be an issue, it's almost inevitable that I'll run into it eventually: if something only happens in 5% of tables that means after 20 tables you'd run into it... I can be in 20 different table in a year... :P
But, to be clear, those modifications (at least impossible alloy) don't give any attributes other than triggering weaknesses, correct? Also manifold alloy doesn't say what grade the silver/cold iron is (which affects runes and hardness). Unless I'm missing something? Sorry to jump on you like this, but it would be great to get clarificationIt's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...It is, actually! The weapon you choose for your innovation has to be a level 0 or level 1 weapon; the lowest level weapons made from precious materials are low grade cold iron and low grade silver, which are level 2. So you can't choose a weapon made out of precious materials for your innovation. What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation.
My question would be if it changes wooden weapons into metal ones: for instance, does my Tonfa, Great Club, Staff, ect become immune to things like Withering Grasp. Does it stay the same categories? Or is it some strange mix that's not vulnerable to both things that affect metal and wood? It'd be nice to know if my Tonfa is now vulnerable to Heat Metal.
But, to be clear, those modifications (at least impossible alloy) don't give any attributes other than triggering weaknesses, correct? Also manifold alloy doesn't say what grade the silver/cold iron is (which affects runes and hardness). Unless I'm missing something? Sorry to jump on you like this, but it would be great to get clarificationIt's not covered by the rules, unfortunately...It is, actually! The weapon you choose for your innovation has to be a level 0 or level 1 weapon; the lowest level weapons made from precious materials are low grade cold iron and low grade silver, which are level 2. So you can't choose a weapon made out of precious materials for your innovation. What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation.
The intent is clear by his statements: You can't make a weapon innovation out of special materials without the modification abilities applying to it. You also don't use the statistics for those special materials when determining other effects of your weapon innovation.
That is the RAW.
My question would be if it changes wooden weapons into metal ones: for instance, does my Tonfa, Great Club, Staff, ect become immune to things like Withering Grasp. Does it stay the same categories? Or is it some strange mix that's not vulnerable to both things that affect metal and wood? It'd be nice to know if my Tonfa is now vulnerable...
I don't think it removed any of the existing trait. If your weapon is primarily wooden, then it is still wooden. It just has these 7 other metals woven into it.
My question would be if it changes wooden weapons into metal ones: for instance, does my Tonfa, Great Club, Staff, ect become immune to things like Withering Grasp. Does it stay the same categories? Or is it some strange mix that's not vulnerable to both things that affect metal and wood? It'd be nice to know if my Tonfa is now vulnerable...I don't think it removed any of the existing trait. If your weapon is primarily wooden, then it is still wooden. It just has these 7 other metals woven into it.
But is it the worst of both worlds?... Is 'woven with 7 other metals' enough to make it a metal item for heat metal? How does Magnetic Acceleration, Magnetic Attraction, Magnetic Repulsion and/or Magnetic Suit affect such a weapon?
I think it's just to "justify" how it works for flavor reasons.
And I'd be 100% cool with it being worded as 'acts as/counts as for Immunities, Weaknesses, and Resistances.' I'd just like the intent clear: when someone justifies it as "It just has these 7 other metals woven into it", it's not a big leap to say it also acts as metal for spells that treat items made from metal differently.
But I tend to go with "if it takes more than 1 second to get how it works, or if I find myself digging to much into the description ( they said so, so maybe... ), then it's not intended that way".
That really doesn't happen here though: for instance Manifold Alloy says "Your weapon innovation is cold iron and silver." Michael Sayre says "What you can do, is take the Manifold Alloy and Impossible Alloy modifications to install precious material parts on your innovation." Those statement seem pretty clear the item is made out of the precious materials but that isn't what the other are saying, that it remains it's original material and keeps it's stats. If I'm taking the "1 second to get how it works", it's that Manifold Alloy/Impossible Alloy changes it to metal.
Anyway, I am still disappointed that a weapon innovator has to forgo special materials and have to necessarily waste a Breakthrough Modification to get either silver and cold iron.
I can't say that I'd rather have it different: IMO, that's just make it a tax on wooden weapons since they normally can't take silver/cold iron while a metal weapon user can just pay it off with some gp.