How good are the 2nd ed AP's?

[Nintendogeek01]

Even though it will be a while yet before my group is done with the current campaign we're doing I can't help but think "what next?" and I haven't written any of the 2e AP's off the table as yet. Though I would like a better gauge of what people think of their quality.

[Rysky]

Yes.

[keftiu]

I'm sure the AP forum would be happy to tell you! :)

The consensus is that the edition had a stumbling start on the AP front, but has largely found its footing: Age of Ashes is a little messy and a lot lethal, while Extinction Curse suffers from a pretty profound identity crisis. Agents of Edgewatch I've heard is competently executed, but the police theming is divisive. Abomination Vaults, the megadungeon, is pretty universally-beloved (and has apparently sold very well), while Fists of the Ruby Phoenix is a really fun high-level AP with a lot of anime inspiration.

Strength of Thousands is one of my favorite APs they've ever released, though we are still waiting on the final volume to release. Quest for the Frozen Flame's first two books seem like a lot of classic primal fantasy fun. Outlaws of Alkenstar and Blood Lords both /sound/ incredible; we have the rest of the year to see how they actually turn out.

[CorvusMask]

Edgewatch is kinda like those anime/manga series where someone is like "if you can ignore one thing, its really good" where the one thing is always something really bad sounding :p (playing it as automaton inventor)

Like it is really well done overall(even with first book difficulty spikes), but there is no way around it that you are being cops in corrupt system that incentives corruption because its only way you get paycheck, so its up to PCs to not engage it if they want to or GM to figure out alternative reward methods.

So very YMMV thing. You could do Disco Elysium thing of "well crap I'm poor but I'm not gonna take bribes anyway" and its not like AP forces you to be morally corrupt, but its really weird they didn't figure out alternate way to give loot in town guard/police procedural story since being paid in fines you give really really gives strong incentive to give harsher fines than you are supposed to so it can be uncomfortable for people. Still though it is one of few APs where doing completely non lethal run makes sense for once. I'd say "non lethal party" and "investigation/mysteries" are main draws of it.

Age of Ashes I'd recommend if you have experience in 2e and are able to tell on sight how hard encounter will actually be, because as it is it definitely has difficulty spikes that are kinda insane.

Extinction Curse is great but its circus ap that isn't really circus ap.

Abomination Vaults has lot of difficulty spikes due to mega dungeon mini boss focus, but is good yeah.

Fist of Ruby Phoenix has quite many fun unusual things to because of competition format.

Strength of Thousands I want to play as conrasu cleric :D Quest for the Frozen Flame is surprisingly tight and cinematic I can tell. And yeah no comments on upcoming ones yet

[GM_3826]

I'm playing through Extinction Curse right now. I agree that the circus stuff is a literal sideshow and that at the end of book 2 the story would benefit from making someone else the heroes. The only problem is that every AP so far has had some sort of downtime sink, and Extinction Curse's is the circus, so if there's no circus you have to find something else to fill downtime. Other than that it's okay so far. (We're on book 3.) I think that if you wanted to make the circus a bigger part it'd be best to make a 1-10 AP and keep the final threat relatively small, but then you'd have to drop the meat of the story, so it's not ideal.

[aobst128]

I think I'll check out Outlaws of Alkenstar when it comes out. I haven't tried any of the APs either. Looking forward to the new options too.

[voideternal]

Playing Extinction Curse now. I'm having a lot of fun. But one peeve I have is that the party doesn't go anywhere fantastic until the later books. It's farmlands after farmlands after farmlands for a long while, and I do prefer my fantasy experience happen in a magical fantasy setting.

[Valantrix1]

I've liked them all except for Agents of Edgewatch. I'm just not much for urban adventures.

[obfuscatingDeity]

I'm most of the way through running Age of Ashes volume 4 and about 65% of the way through running Extinction Curse volume 5, plus a decent clip into Abomination Vaults as a player.

Age of Ashes Thoughts:

Age of Ashes I really like, but you've GOT to do a bit more work as a GM to tie the plot together and build out the "home phases"(for my group they decided to found a trading guild/potentially humanitarian aid org and they each have various levels of personal plots that i've been tying into the ongoing Big Plot). I've actually never experienced the lethality issues that other parties mention, but my PC's have free archetype and relics to sell the "world-saving heroes" fantasy and that might just be enough to outweigh the occasional overtuned encounter. They also just really made a well-rounded party that synergizes super well, so there's that too.

Extinction Curse Thoughts:

Extinction Curse definitely suffers a bit from the aforementioned identity crisis, but with a bit of extra work to tie the circus NPC's more deeply to the PC's it doesn't have to be TOO bad. We ended up using the simpler circus rules in the third and fourth volumes anyways, though. One of my PC's is a champion of Cayden Cailean so I ended up having a lot of thematic stuff about messy relationships and tainted legacies and family and stuff. The last two volumes of Extinction Curse both take place in super cool locations that nearly sell the whole thing for me, but the slowly-growing circus heroes vibe from the first four volumes are also very fun IMO.

Abomination Vaults Thoughts:

Abomination Vaults I have a slightly different experience with because I've been playing it instead of running it, though I definitely think I'd like to run it in the future. It's very cool for a dungeon adventure, lots of neat horror-tinged elements that our GM has really leaned into because we've ended up with a high spooky quotient in our party. The connected town of Otari is very compelling and we've had a ton of fun just diving into the town's problems and people and figuring out our place in them. Definitely one where playing out the changes that a group of adventurers can cause in a space is super vital.

I read Agents of Edgewatch and thought there were some really cool ideas in there that I might mine for future urban adventures, and Strength of Thousands is the next AP I intend to run. I find it extremely compelling and am very excited to dig into the school setting and explore the ways that it and the PC's develop over their tenure. I've also been reading Quest for the Frozen Flame as it releases and imo it's a super compelling and interesting take on an area that hasn't had a lot of love in Pathfinder's history. The Mammoth Realms are very cool and I'd be stoked to run Frozen Flame at some point.

[keftiu]

I will say: I’m no fan of Extinction Curse, but book 5’s setting - a city of undead drow in an irradiated desert of black sand, deep in the Darklands - is a home run.

[Deriven Firelion]

So far the usual Paizo high APs with a mix of various mostly well-executed modules with lots to play with for a DM.

My favorites so far:

Agents of Edgewatch: You have to be a fan of the genre to enjoy it. It's like a mix of tons of great police/detective action and suspense films and stories all mixed together with some horror elements tossed in.

I'm a big fan of that genre. Some of the films I think of while playing it: Silence of the Lambs, Assault on Precinct 13, The Departed, Usual Suspects, James Bond films, Nighthawks, The Shield, Sherlock Holmes, and Oceans 11. It's got a really big mix of characters and scenarios that mixes it up a lot.

It's very different from most of their APs. You have to make some adjustments to the loot system to make it fit better into the theme unless your players want to play corrupt police, but it's an easy adjustment.

Abomination Vaults: A very good dungeon crawl. Lots of interesting, well-executed ideas put into a multilevel dungeon with a good story. Straight forward with lots of combat and treasure.

Age of Ashes isn't terrible. But it has some weaknesses in plot that hurt its overall enjoyment for me. It has a lot of interesting material that a DM who pre-reads the adventure could thread together better than the modules did.

Extinction Curse: Pretty fun. As others have said, the circus is barely existent and doesn't tie into the story very well. It hurt the overall experience of the AP. The overarching plot of Extinction Curse isn't too bad. It's definitely different using an enemy Paizo hasn't built an AP around as far as I can recall.

No real experience with the other APs. I read Strength of Thousands first module and it wasn't my cup of tea.

Really looking forward to Blood Lords. I might give Quest for Frozen Flame a shot.

I'm playing Rise of the Runelords for PF2. Still one of their best APs for story. I really want an updated Wrath of the Righteous, but that is likely ages away if they ever do Mythic for 2E. Wrath of the Righteous was such a great AP that the Mythic rules made unplayable. So much wasted goodness in that AP. I will definitely update it if they make Mythic rules.

[Ascalaphus]

I agree with CorvusMask, Edgewatch's biggest sin is the corrupt loot system. And it's silly because there were perfectly straightforward ways to dodge that problem that Paizo didn't use:

- Use the Automatic Bonus Progression rule from the GMG. We can see from Strength of Thousands that using a variant rule (in that case, free archetype) throughout the entire campaign isn't taboo.

- Have the government supply you with gear. As you become more senior in the government's eyes (read: finish missions and gain levels) the bureaucrats are willing to authorize bigger and bigger requisitions/funds.

[Nintendogeek01]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Age of Ashes did catch my interest since it's the first 2nd ed. AP, so I appreciate the forewarning to read it ahead of time to figure out what needs threading.

obfuscatingDeity wrote:

Abomination Vaults I have a slightly different experience with because I've been playing it instead of running it, though I definitely think I'd like to run it in the future. It's very cool for a dungeon adventure, lots of neat horror-tinged elements that our GM has really leaned into because we've ended up with a high spooky quotient in our party. The connected town of Otari is very compelling and we've had a ton of fun just diving into the town's problems and people and figuring out our place in them. Definitely one where playing out the changes that a group of adventurers can cause in a space is super vital.

I admit this take does concern me. I can stand some horror elements thrown into an AP, undead make excellent villains for a good reason, but I'm not a fan of out-and-out horror. Was this just an affectation of your GM or is this AP pretty strong in the horror department?

[HumbleGamer]

Just tried AoA and EC so far.

AoA is the better among these 2 by so far.

In EC we gave up doing the circus stuff because it's boring and brings nothing.

Spoiler:

Skipping it with a few earn income checks is the best way to deal with. In the beginning, I hoped for more events like in the first book, but turns out it's nothing but gathering new characters because the others cannot progress in their own circus abilities. The plot is "meh" ( as well as suicidal enemies. It doesn't matter if they have a brain or not ), and makes you wonder if you have the right in considering yourself being on the "good side".

ps: as a little side note, there's no good map for either AoA and EC if you plan to play them with foundry or any other VTT ( which is imo unacceptable given stuff like fg is out since 2004 ). This also means you'd have to edit any secret passage or trap, since they're going to be displayed on your map regardless the options you disable on the pdf.

So, you have either to use those low quality graph ( making the required adjustements ) or get some "remake" map made by other people ( we did this way with EC ).

[CorvusMask]

EC at least has roll20 modules which is nice

[OrochiFuror]

AoA was rough because there were custom made or upleveled creatures that just broke every sense of balance that you suddenly get punched in the face. Six attacks at -2, two action aoe damage every round in confined spaces, regen that's turned off by a rather rare damage type, they aren't bosses either so they come in packs.

AV was alright, not a fan of dungeons and didn't enjoy my character.

FotRP is great so far, a bit easy but fun if you like making friends by fighting them.

[Rysky]

They did.

"We can't take looting away from players" was their stated reasoning, that people would hate using an alternate gearing system.

They were wrong.

[Deriven Firelion]

hsnsy56 wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

I agree with CorvusMask, Edgewatch's biggest sin is the corrupt loot system. And it's silly because there were perfectly straightforward ways to dodge that problem that Paizo didn't use:

- Use the Automatic Bonus Progression rule from the GMG. We can see from Strength of Thousands that using a variant rule (in that case, free archetype) throughout the entire campaign isn't taboo.

- Have the government supply you with gear. As you become more senior in the government's eyes (read: finish missions and gain levels) the bureaucrats are willing to authorize bigger and bigger requisitions/funds.

Yeah, it's like these designers don't look outside their closet for inspiration.

EN World Zeitgeist did a whole campaign as agents of the crown/cia/fbi agents and you were expected to turn in any magic items to the crown and then requisition your magic gear. You could requisition something you found or other items up to your level limits... Done.

There was even an investigation into corruption that would have the PCs sweating if they were trying to skim a little extra off the top!

Maybe the writers thought this style was a feature?

I tallied up loot as a number and gave the PCs that amount of requisition as equipment as they advanced. Worked perfectly and was easy to do.

[Ascalaphus]

Rysky wrote:

They did.

"We can't take looting away from players" was their stated reasoning, that people would hate using an alternate gearing system.

They were wrong.

Yeah I think this is something to keep in mind both for the people handing out AP writing assignments, and for the writers; many of the "givens" of how the game is played aren't really carved in stone, not carved all that deep.

But the "requisition stuff you found, or other stuff up to your level" hsnsy56 mentions is a good compromise too, if you happened to find something that you thought was particularly nice it's good if you can officially get it.

--

Back when I played Dead Suns (basically, the Age of Ashes of Starfinder; same first AP in a new system glitches), by book 3 we all decided we had real lives with enough going on and extended loot tracking just wasn't the key thing in our fun. So we switched to every level, you can just refresh your gear to fit in WBL. Presented as the Starfinder Society's quartermasters gradually agreeing that saving the universe is maybe sorta important and they should provision you somewhat. And as you become more senior operatives, bigger requisitions get approved.

And in actual gameplay, that meant that loot didn't play a big role in our game. Someone drops something, we glance at it to see if it's relevant in the short term, otherwise, we really don't have to do any bookkeeping. For us it removed a distraction and let us focus on the story more.

[PossibleCabbage]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I agree with CorvusMask, Edgewatch's biggest sin is the corrupt loot system. And it's silly because there were perfectly straightforward ways to dodge that problem that Paizo didn't use:

- Use the Automatic Bonus Progression rule from the GMG. We can see from Strength of Thousands that using a variant rule (in that case, free archetype) throughout the entire campaign isn't taboo.

- Have the government supply you with gear. As you become more senior in the government's eyes (read: finish missions and gain levels) the bureaucrats are willing to authorize bigger and bigger requisitions/funds.

Yeah, it would be an interesting project for the community to fix all the problem spots with Agent of Edgewatch. Switching to ABP and having some amount of other gear just supplied by your employer fixes that problem. I'm not sure how to fix the "you don't have to make any effort whatsoever to be nonlethal, since your greataxe and your fireball are somehow amazingly not lethal" thing though.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

I am GMing AoA, mid book 4, and playing in AoE, I think towards the end of Book 2. Also in book one of AV.

AoA - Good, but I strongly suggest you add in some recurring villains, tie the story together a little bit.

AV - Mostly dungeon crawl, seems fun so far.

AoE - My favorite. It really is a blast, with lots of inspiration from prior works in the genre. Can also easily be run as a group of adventurers hired to investigate.

The loot situation is a little weird, I think they tried to use the traditional loot system (beat things up and take their stuff) because they didn't want to stray too far from the tried and true formula, and it didn't really work.

Easy fix, Just like Deriven says, is have your station give you bonuses or a stipend for a job well done, conveniently the same you would get from fighting. Not hard. Also honestly, after the beginning of book one the baddies start getting very bad so you don't feel bad about taking their stuff too much hah, but stipend/bonuses is really the way to go.

[Deriven Firelion]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

I agree with CorvusMask, Edgewatch's biggest sin is the corrupt loot system. And it's silly because there were perfectly straightforward ways to dodge that problem that Paizo didn't use:

- Use the Automatic Bonus Progression rule from the GMG. We can see from Strength of Thousands that using a variant rule (in that case, free archetype) throughout the entire campaign isn't taboo.

- Have the government supply you with gear. As you become more senior in the government's eyes (read: finish missions and gain levels) the bureaucrats are willing to authorize bigger and bigger requisitions/funds.

Yeah, it would be an interesting project for the community to fix all the problem spots with Agent of Edgewatch. Switching to ABP and having some amount of other gear just supplied by your employer fixes that problem. I'm not sure how to fix the "you don't have to make any effort whatsoever to be nonlethal, since your greataxe and your fireball are somehow amazingly not lethal" thing though.

You don't have to use the nonlethal damage option. Some of the stuff they fight is immune to nonlethal damage. I didn't use the nonlethal damage recommendation. I cued my players to the reality of their job and required they act accordingly. I wouldn't even want to run the campaign if the players were just going to act like murder hobo adventurers when the campaign is not in line with that modus operandi. That wouldn't have been fun at all.

[keftiu]

If you have to jump through all these hoops to fix the killer corrupt cop story… maybe they should’ve listened to the Paizo staff who spoke up against the AP and were ignored.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

keftiu wrote:

If you have to jump through all these hoops to fix the killer corrupt cop story… maybe they should’ve listened to the Paizo staff who spoke up against the AP and were ignored.

Killer corrupt cop story? I’m sorry have you played it? That is literally the farthest thing from the AP as could be. It explicitly gives you the ability to do non-lethal for no penalty so you can bring everyone in alive.

The “corrupt” thing was honestly overblown too. The game tried to let you get loot by fining people for their offenses and seizing their property. As I said above it didn’t work as intended so we made minor changes and fixed it. At no point are you corrupt cops in this AP.

[keftiu]

“It’s not a story about being corrupt cops after you change it” isn’t exactly winning me over.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

keftiu wrote:

“It’s not a story about being corrupt cops after you change it” isn’t exactly winning me over.

I don’t want to start a forum war, but I feel like you are attempting to take what I said out of context. The AP never presents you as corrupt cops. Instead you assess fines on the spot, for crimes you witness. Now does this create an incentive to overfine? Sure, which is why we changed it, but it doesn’t make it about corrupt cops.

In fact my group had discussions about what the appropriate fine would be for the criminal conduct we dealt with, sometimes waiving the fine entirely. But it was a bit wonky as mentioned so we just changed it to getting a paycheck.

My group is a bunch of eclectic heroes hah, they would drag any corrupt cops behind bars!

[PossibleCabbage]

Like the "be a police officer" AP should involve "sometimes you have to use less than optimal combat strategies, because as public servants you can't just kill people". This is not all the time, since (I haven't read the AP) you probably fight like an ooze or a mindless undead or a daemon or something at some point.

But saying "you have to be prepared to take in people alive, without harming them very much, since you're supposed to be one of the good guys" would restrict character options a lot, which is something they're not inclined to do right at character creation.

But given that some of the recent character options make this easier (e.g. the summoner with a plant eidolon that grapples, the weapon inventor with a net-crossbow) it might be doable to just hang a "greataxe swinging barbarians and fireball chucking wizards need not apply."

We could always take a lot of the good cues from the very "this should not be all that fighty, if you use your skills and roleplay well" Strength of Thousands AP too.

[Rysky]

“The AP never presents you as corrupt cops.”

That’s the problem, the AP as presented had your characters doing plenty of immoral things and presenting bad situations and saying it’s okay.

[Malk_Content]

I'll be honest the lack of non lethal options in the game in general makes most characters in most APs absolutely not moral actors. One of the first things you do in AV is enter a creatures home and probably murder them. This goes back all the way to the games inception.

Yeah the cop theme highlights it as a problem and I laughed out loud when I read the handwaived non lethal damage (funnily done hastily in response to world events.) But the problem is with the game at its core. It devotes 3/4 of its rules and content about killings things and makes it very awkward to bring things in alive. Which I suppose mirrors reality somewhat, the on site execution of Bin Laden was justified partly by difficulty of capture and ability to contain and transport.

[Deriven Firelion]

Module 3 has a sort of grey element that I won't explain due to spoilers. But it isn't violent.

Module 5 has a more noir, gritty plot element for certain reasons tied to the story.

The other modules have you playing heroic city watch members saving lives as well dealing with disputes and solving a mystery.

The main immoral element was the loot system, which was poorly thought out and unnecessary to the story. Not even sure how it made it in the modules.

Overall, the modules were well done and involved saving a city and the people in it while putting your lives on the line. It involved far more mystery solving, negotiation, and managing politics along with combats. Very different from the usual APs I'm accustomed to from Paizo.

[CorvusMask]

I concur that Edgewatch isn't "You play as corrupt cops the AP". Even if you remove the non-lethal house rule, AP still encourages you to take everyone in alive. You are very much expected to be attempt to be good guys.

Like issue isn't that, issue is paizo doesn't like punishing players so there isn't any form of in written mechanic for punishing players for being corrupt, which makes system seem more corrupt. It's why Return of the Runelords has stuff like "local sheriff deputizes you to bring back criminal in alive, but if you bring the back dead the shrug it off as 'well I understand it isn't easy to bring in alive' without really any consequences for it.", paizo seems extremely hesitant to put in consequences for gameplay choices. So as result, it basically creates unfortunate implication that you can be both good guy and corrupt cop because nothing really punishes you for it.

(there is also that I keep hearing people imply you do more immoral things than that, but for first book at least that hasn't been true so far and we seem to be in level 4 and final dungeon of the game.)

[The Raven Black]

I guess the question is do the systems used in AoE actively prevent PCs from being murderhoboes, or is it all in the hands of players and the GM ?

Really, playing corrupt murdering cops should require making changes to the AP rather than the other way around. Especially if the PCs are supposed to be good cops.

And, yes, Paizo has clearly stated that they ignored in-house warnings about the AP.

What I get from all this is that AoE is a good AP that has been weakened because of inadequate mechanics. Just like Wrath of the Righteous and Mythic rules, I guess.

[pauljathome]

In AoE even if the PCs choose (and it is a choice, not a requirement) to play non corrupt cops it is made crystal clear how totally corrupt and pretty much evil the REST of the police force is. Absalom as a whole is a pretty evil city (and strangely Victorian given the artwork).

There are also quite a few quite dark themes in it. I think they were right to not sanction this for PFS, it really should NOT be played in public spaces where children could overhear what is going on

Also quite a few places where if the PCs hurry like cops should then they're likely to get in over their heads.

It has a lot more issues than just the looting

[Malk_Content]

On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good! I actually applaud it's inclusion. If there isn't the potential to be evil, then being good then you aren't actually making any moral choice.

I don't think we should be lambasting paizo for including the option to take more than you should or levvy harsh fines for personal gains, thats totally on theme for how many corrupt institutions work. If we didn't have it I bet there would be complaints about how the police AP doesn't shine a light on the corrupting influence and feedback loops such a system creates. The only people we should very looking askance at is those who play corrupt cops while keeping that G on their character sheet.

[The Raven Black]

Malk_Content wrote:

On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good! I actually applaud it's inclusion. If there isn't the potential to be evil, then being good then you aren't actually making any moral choice.

I don't think we should be lambasting paizo for including the option to take more than you should or levvy harsh fines for personal gains, thats totally on theme for how many corrupt institutions work. If we didn't have it I bet there would be complaints about how the police AP doesn't shine a light on the corrupting influence and feedback loops such a system creates. The only people we should very looking askance at is those who play corrupt cops while keeping that G on their character sheet.

When the system encourages PCs to choose corrupt behavior over virtuous behavior, ie virtuous behavior is actively punished, there is a problem with the system itself.

Especially in a Good cops AP.

And yes there were in-house warnings within Paizo about all this. And yes these went unheeded. And yes Paizo regrets not having listened.

It is a good learning experience.

[Malk_Content]

The Raven Black wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good! I actually applaud it's inclusion. If there isn't the potential to be evil, then being good then you aren't actually making any moral choice.

I don't think we should be lambasting paizo for including the option to take more than you should or levvy harsh fines for personal gains, thats totally on theme for how many corrupt institutions work. If we didn't have it I bet there would be complaints about how the police AP doesn't shine a light on the corrupting influence and feedback loops such a system creates. The only people we should very looking askance at is those who play corrupt cops while keeping that G on their character sheet.

When the system encourages PCs to choose corrupt behavior over virtuous behavior, ie virtuous behavior is actively punished, there is a problem with the system itself.

Especially in a Good cops AP.

That is part of what being Good means. If there is no benefit for being evil then you haven't really presented a proper moral choice. This is basically complaining that doing the right thing is hard. But it should be hard.

Most of us aren't good really, we are neutral at best, because being Good requires effort and sacrifice.

I think more APs should have temptations to stray from the path of good, with reward for doing so. Being and staying Good should be an active thing, not the default.

See also all the other stuff pcs get to do while supposedly being good.

[Squiggit]

Malk_Content wrote:

This is basically complaining that doing the right thing is hard. But it should be hard.

Maybe to some extent, but if you look at the comments I think it's clear some people are coming into here planning to hate the AP from the start. I'm not sure discussing the philosophical merits of certain design directions is even really on the table.

FWIW, I didn't find Edgewatch that hard to 'fix' for my players. Just using ABP is a pretty standard variant in a lot of games I see anyways and I didn't feel the need to significantly adjust encounter math (like I did with AoA) or fundamentally reframe some of the main features of the AP (like I did with EC).

[Squiggit]

The Raven Black wrote:

This is a game though. Not RL. Not everyone is interested in their PC having to always make the hard choices, losing and suffering, just to be Good.

I mean, it's pretty easy to just be do-gooders in all of the aforementioned campaigns for the most part too.

[The Raven Black]

Malk_Content wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good! I actually applaud it's inclusion. If there isn't the potential to be evil, then being good then you aren't actually making any moral choice.

I don't think we should be lambasting paizo for including the option to take more than you should or levvy harsh fines for personal gains, thats totally on theme for how many corrupt institutions work. If we didn't have it I bet there would be complaints about how the police AP doesn't shine a light on the corrupting influence and feedback loops such a system creates. The only people we should very looking askance at is those who play corrupt cops while keeping that G on their character sheet.

When the system encourages PCs to choose corrupt behavior over virtuous behavior, ie virtuous behavior is actively punished, there is a problem with the system itself.

Especially in a Good cops AP.

That is part of what being Good means. If there is no benefit for being evil then you haven't really presented a proper moral choice. This is basically complaining that doing the right thing is hard. But it should be hard.

Most of us aren't good really, we are neutral at best, because being Good requires effort and sacrifice.

I think more APs should have temptations to stray from the path of good, with reward for doing so. Being and staying Good should be an active thing, not the default.

See also all the other stuff pcs get to do while supposedly being good.

This is a game though. Not RL. Not everyone is interested in their PC having to always make the hard choices, losing and suffering, just to be Good.

[The Raven Black]

Lots of time-travelling posts these days.

[Malk_Content]

The Raven Black wrote:

This is a game though. Not RL. Not everyone is interested in their PC having to always make the hard choices, losing and suffering, just to be Good.

That's fine. This AP isn't for them then. Or not unaltered. Just like every other AP. Doesn't make it bad that the AP actually presents and reinforces mechanically hard moral choices.

I personally like it. I rarely write G on my character sheet because its just not true. I think most people are fooling themselves and over looking all the things that make their characters not actually Good. Just like we over look the same in our day to day lives.

[Rysky]

“On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good!”

If it were just simply that, there wouldn’t be as much of an issue. But it went beyond that and treats immoral actions as neutral/good.

A wandering mercenary defeating and looting an opponent is a world’s difference from a cop arresting and “confiscating” all of a person’s belonging in additions to fines. It’s an abuse of power and station.

[Malk_Content]

Rysky wrote:

“On the mechanics offering a way for players to be potentially corrupt. Good!”

If it were just simply that, there wouldn’t be as much of an issue. But it went beyond that and treats immoral actions as neutral/good.

A wandering mercenary defeating and looting an opponent is a world’s difference from a cop arresting and “confiscating” all of a person’s belonging in additions to fines. It’s an abuse of power and station.

The difference isn't that huge. When you walk into someone's home and kill them and take their stuff the fact that you have a badge or not really doesn't change how good or evil you are. It does change how good or evil the institution that badge represents is, but not the individual.

Without the badge it's basically a mugging, which is an option PCs past a certain level definitely have.

[The Raven Black]

All of this does not need the system actively encouraging Evil behaviour, especially for supposedly Good PCs. Even worse when they are cops in a city, ie with a social role and responsibilities, rather than random adventurers prowling forgotten dungeons and wild places.

[Rysky]

"The difference isn't that huge."

That is a worrying response.

"Without the badge it's basically a mugging"

It's still mugging with the badge. A random person breaking into a house and killing and stealing is a very different set of morals and expectations (from random murderer to vigilante) than a representative of a government empowered and condoned by the government to do the same task. Officers of the law should be held to a higher standard than people who are not, not less.

"Maybe we just have different standards to what capital G Good means"

Obviously, you don't have to sacrifice yourself to do some good.

[Malk_Content]

The Raven Black wrote:

All of this does not need the system actively encouraging Evil behaviour, especially for supposedly Good PCs. Even worse when they are cops in a city, ie with a social role and responsibilities, rather than random adventurers prowling forgotten dungeons and wild places.

Doesn't need it. I think it still makes it more compelling. Without benefits people being being evil then you just present a cartoonish version of evil.

Not every adventure needs this potential for introspection. I'm not arguing for that. Different APs can cater to different tastes. That's okay. I like that when I eventually get round to playing this our group will possibly struggle with this. I like these kind of struggles in games.

One of my favourite moments I recent role-playing was during a VtM game. One of my players abstained from entering the chamber were they knew torture was going to happen. The other players did enter and when faced with the reality of it on screen, opposed it to massive personal cost (they basically threw away their relationship with the only powerful vampire on their side in the city.) The character who stayed outside lost humanity even though the torture didn't happen, because they let that door close thinking it would.

[Malk_Content]

Rysky wrote:

"The difference isn't that huge."

That is a worrying response.

"Without the badge it's basically a mugging"

It's still mugging with the badge. A random person breaking into a house and killing and stealing is a very different set of morals and expectations (from random murderer to vigilante) than a representative of a government empowered and condoned by the government to do the same task. Officers of the law should be held to a higher standard than people who are not, not less.

"Maybe we just have different standards to what capital G Good means"

Obviously, you don't have to sacrifice yourself to do some good.

Once again you cut things way out of context. I think the expectations of got institutions should be higher than those of individuals acting on their own. Its that institutional reinforcement and scale that makes those institutions DEFINATELY not good. But the individual using their power for personal benefit at the expense of others, evil with or without the badge.

Doing some good doesn't make you Good. And doing enough to qualify as Good absolutely does require personal sacrifice.