So I have a gestalt campaign coming up and I'm thinking about playing a caster (non weapon based character) but action economy keeps limiting. something like a barbarian monk gets to rage and have huge damage on a flurry, magus rogues can do spell combat and sneak attack at the same time, but a wizard cleric basically just has a tons of spell choices, but it still stuck at 1 spell per turn.
Does anyone have any clue how to make a pure gestalt caster work? quicken spell uses a slot 4 levels higher, which isn't practical. Magical lineage helps, but just for a single spell, I know there's a prestige class that reduces the level cost, but only once you hit 15th level, and mystic theurge isn't a legal class for gestalt. So is there something out there that I am missing?
What you are missing is how powerful a full 9th level caster is. The biggest problem with a full 9th level caster in a normal game is they quickly run out of their high level spells. While being able to only cast one spell per turn seems like it makes you less powerful you are not really the case. It is more that the other classes are being boosted to closer to your power level.
The Gestalt rules also help spontaneous casters with one of their biggest problems which is the limited number of spells known. With two casters classes to draw on that effectively doubles your number of spells known. If you go for a half elf and take extra spells known as your favored class bonus for each class it gets even more powerful. Spontaneous casters also tend to have more class features than prepared casters which means you double up on those.
Casting boosting feats are also more useful in a gestalt campaign. Things like spell focus and spell penetration apply to both classes. You can also apply meta-magic feats to all of your spells. So where other combinations are having to split their feats between their classes you get to use them on both classes.
My suggestion would be to go for a oracle/sorcerer combination to use the same casting stat for both classes. Look for a mystery and a bloodline that has good synergy between them. For example draconic(Red or Gold) with the flame mystery has a lot of abilities that would work well together. For one all your fire spells now get +1 per dice for damage and the targets catch on fire if they fail the saving throw Take Elemental focus and greater elemental focus to boost the saving throw of all your fire spells. You don’t need to use this combination but looks for something that works well together and does not have a lot of overlapping bloodline powers and revelations
Half elf not only allows you to gain a lot of extra spells it also allows you to get the elven magical racial trait for an extra +2 on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance that stacks with spell penetration. The floating STAT bonus means you can put it to CHA. Since you are not planning on using a weapon you can dump STR to boost CHA and could have a 29 CHA by 15th level.
You are pretty much going to be stuck with that action economy issue no matter what.
You could do something like an Urban-Metamagic Rager Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline gestalt with a Magician Bard... that gives you multiple ways to apply metamagic to your spells that could possibly improve/break normal action economy.
You could look at ways to exploit things other than just spells... like having a Ki Pool and Channel Energy, combining the Ki Channel feat with the Tea of Transference alchemical item.
You could take the Combat Advice feat to have a different use for your move action. You could have a Freebooter Ranger as half your gestalt, and give your team a buff for a move action. Or be a Gnome with a Ki Pool and take Bewildering Koan for a swift action "lose your next action" ability. Pick up Bardic Performance and buff your team...
Have you ever used Aid Another? It is super easy to jack the bonus up quite a bit... Halfling's Helpful trait, Cavalier's Order of the Dragon, Shaman's Tribe Spirit, the Halfling Opportunist prestige class, lots of traits and some pretty decent feat support, too. Bodyguard, Harrying Partners, Swift Aid... the Effortless Aid Investigator Talent, and the Gloves of Arcane Striking. There is an Alchemist archetype and a Druid archetype that can get Investigator Talents, and a Rogue archetype that gets Arcane Strike even without spells.
You could pick a theme, and just a make a character that literally always has something they can do... like an Alchemist gestalt with a Wizard, be a brewkeeper. Be a Cleric/UnMonk and be a chef.
You have lots of options for lots of actions, but relatively few ways to rapid fire spells regardless of gestalt.
One way to look at this could be to use one class for out-of-combat utility and long-term buffs, and the other class for combat blasting.
Bard // Sorcerer for example can use the Bard spells out-of-combat and by level 7 you have a Move Action Inspire Courage, while the Sorcereer spells can be saved for more murderous standard actions.
You could alternatively use something like Alchemist/Investigator/etc for the buffing side, as they may give other benefits that are pess obvious .
It's also worth checking the 6/9 casters, since a lot of them have some action economy tricks, giving swift/move action abilities that could assist your casting/survivability/mobility while your main 9/9 caster spams spells.
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You also only have one set of stats. Along MrCharisma's line of thinking, you could consider something like a Kensai Magus | Intelligence based caster. That gives you Spell Combat to help with action economy, along with better defences (Int to AC).
I'm playing a Ratfolk Bladebound Kensai Magus | Silksworn Occultist that, while not a full caster, has good utility, can fight in melee, has plenty of Ocultist powers and a decent selection of spells.
With so many spells you can use a lot of buff spells and still have plenty left to use in combat. As has been pointed out, Wizard/Cleric suffers from 2 casting stats. If you use 1 as the buff spells class that stat doesn't need to be as high.
The sacred fist warpriest may be a good fit. It’s only a 6th level caster but it can swift action cast buffs on itself and it’s more compatible with not wearing armor than most divine casters. And you don’t have to worry as much about maximizing wisdom, though the more wisdom you have, the better your AC will be.
An alternate perspective:
You have the same action economy that everyone else does. The barbarian//monk gestalt gets rage damage on flurry, yes, but it's still the same action economy that any other monk would have.
What you're looking for is a potency-amplifier. Something to make your spells more successful or powerful.
A good example might be a shaman or witch coupled with wizard. Unlike cleric//wizard which has no synergy, a witch//wizard would have the ability to drop some hexes in the first round or two to debuff an enemy, making your save-or-die spells more likely to work.
If you're allowed to go outside of Paizo material, I'd suggest Dreamscarred Press' class, the Malefex. Just a Google search away, the rules are OGL, and public. That does curses as a swift action, which is really, really nasty as a malefex//something. It's Wisdom-based, which may limit how silly you can make it. My current malefex is 8th level with a +6 Wisdom modifier, and can usually pick a target to give a -6 penalty to saves, as a swift. In my campaign, I spend two or three rounds stacking penalties (for instance shaken), until a target is really softened up for our arcanist, but you potentially could do the same all for yourself.
Those are my thoughts.
Gestalt is a prime opportunity to play with Poison... if that interests you, at all.
A Grippli Toxicant-Vivisectionist Alchemist gestalt with Venom Siphoner Witch with the Plague Patron and Deific/Diverse Obedience Norgorber can be fun. There are lots of possible combinations, but any time you can be a Grippli, you probably should.
There are ways to loop Infuse Poison and Toxic Spell to hit the target with a Spell + Poison + Spell + Poison... it's hilarious.
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What do you want to do with the character? You say you want a pure gestalt caster fine but what exactly are you aiming for with this? For example a wizard/cleric is limited to one spell per round but on the other hand has a huge level of options in what they want to do with that spell. other healer down, cast a spell to pick them up. Pre-battle provide arcane and divine buffing spells. Part member not in danger - cast debuffing, area control or damage spells. Wizard/Sorcerer gestalt less versatitliy but take damage/area control spells as a sorcerer to be able to cast lots of them, take utility spells as a wizard for specific circumstances. You also have the suggestions above.
You also have the suggestions above, and you obviously need to ask yourself what the other party members will be wanting to play. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. For example if I were playing a wizard I could take spells to reduce the reliance on the rogue for trap finding, if the rogue player wants to be doing that for their concept I wouldn't because I'd be stepping on their fun, however if they wanted to play a rogue for the sneak attack and huge amount of skills but didn't care about traps I could take that so they don't feel pressured to do something they don't want too.
If you're going to play as a 9th level caster as one of your classes, then you'll probably want to stay away from picking another class that has 6th-9th casting, and probably go with a 2nd class that has high BAB, d8 or d10 HP, and either a strong Fort or Reflex save. And then try to make yourself as reliant upon your primary Casting Attribute as possible.
Some examples of naturally synergistic combos:
Swashbuckler Sorcerer
Slayer Wizard
Rogue Archmage
Gunslinger Cleric
Eldritch Archer Witch
Paladin Oracle
Monk Druid
Barbarian or Fighter + Witch/Shaman might sound good on paper, but their action economy conflicts hard, to the point that it makes both classes bad. Both classes compete for Move Actions (as well as Standards) for Moving closer to the enemy for BARBARIAN MAKE WHACK but Witch/Shaman need Moves for cackle/chant. So, when you choose your two classes, make a 10-12th level character sheet and take him for a test drive. Make sure your two classes coalesce and cooperate well.
Surprisingly, Witches do well in Gestalt with other 6th and 9th level casters. I ran an Evil Gestalt campaign that had 2 PC's I affectionately named "The Witching Sisters", a SeducerWitchX + BardX (ultimate seducer/party face), and a Gravewalker Witch + Juju Oracle (zoo-style necromancer), and both of these characters were exceptionally powerful both in and out of combat.
Thanks for everyone input, it seems like the consensus agrees with my original assessment.
I am trying to see if a caster only build is viable for Gestalt, a character that doesn't really get into combat. an Example would be a cleric/wizard, or druid/sorcerer.
I fully understand the power of 9th level casters, and being able to be a 9th level caster in 2 classes is powerful.
But, round per round, there's no difference in a single class (non gestalt) caster and a "gestalt caster", aside from additional options. I.E. you are limited to 1 spell per turn, with no additional boost that you wouldn't have anyway.
As Anguish mentioned above, what I'm looking for is that "Potency" boost, on par with the potency boost that I am seeing with many other Gestalt Builds. Like I mentioned, a Monk/Rogue being able to make a full flurry of blows, but with Full backstab on all of those attacks is down right scary, And I'm just not seeing a "Caster" build that can be on par, without going into the "combat" oriented caster classes like Magus or Arcanist, and most certainly not with both halves of the Gestalt being a caster.
If you're truly married to playing a dual-9th level caster, consider going Witch/Arcanist. Hexes debuff saves, and Arcane Reservoir + Potent Magic Exploit increases your DC.
If you're truly married to playing a dual-9th level caster, consider going Witch/Arcanist. Hexes debuff saves, and Arcane Reservoir + Potent Magic Exploit increases your DC.
It doesn't have to be dual 9th level casters, but I'm trying to see if any dual caster, that's not a combat build, is viable in gestalt.
It doesn't have to be dual 9th level casters, but I'm trying to see if any dual caster, that's not a combat build, is viable in gestalt.
A well built non-gestalt full caster would still be viable in a gestalt game. You really only need to use the gestalt to cherry pick abilities and maybe boost your hp and saves. It doesn't matter if you happen to pick up a few combat abilities you won't use.
For instance, it's not like you have to wade into combat with the wizard/warpriest. Being able to swift cast some buffs on yourself while casting your offensive wizard spells is good enough.
Be a Nagaji Mesmerist/Sorcerer... put your FCB in Mesmerist, and don't archetype out of Mental Potency. Pick a Bloodline that boosts either Enchantmemt or Illusion spells...
Now you have Bloodline Arcana, Mental Potency, and the FCB buff that stacks with Mental Potency.
Or, be a Nagaji Mesmerist/Oracle... there is a Heavens Oracle Revelation, called Awesome Display, that would synergize well with Mental Potency and the Nagaji FCB. You could essentially just Color Spray your way through life. Lol.
Arcanist // COURT POET SKALD
Or as others have said, anything that buffs/debuffs as a move/swift action is good. I'm sure
You really only need to use the gestalt to cherry pick abilities and maybe boost your hp and saves. It doesn't matter if you happen to pick up a few combat abilities you won't use.
This is absolutely true in Gestalt. The Gestalt game I ran was a very Rocket Tag-y game, to say the least. You need a lot of HP and really high saves to make sure you get as many Negates and Partial Effects as possible.
That's why I'm a big fan of pairing a 9th level caster with a d10 martial, or a d8 at the very least if you have some neat tricks up your sleeve. Try to get all 3 of your saves as +12 progression if possible (but make sure you have two Strong saves at minimum), and don't dip any of your ability scores that affect Saves either. Taking a class with access to Evasion or Improved Evasion is not critical to your success, but it is really, REALLY nice to have.
All the challenging monsters and BBEG's you face are either going to be APL+3to8-ish = CR monsters from the bestiary, or APL = CR Gestalt monstrosities custom-created by your GM, so they definitely put out the hurty-hurt. And when you fail a save and take full effect from a Save or Die or even just take full dmg from a spell, you're essentially forced out of combat to go heal, because the next save you fail could mean your death. Make sure you have Immediate Actions like Emergency Force Sphere or Stone Shield that can save you as well. You will need them on a ~weekly basis, so make sure you have at least one spell slot devoted to an IA; if you can afford 2 spell slots to "Save Me" IA's, even better. Contingency + Dimension Door "if I get targeted with a harmful effect, such as an attack or spell, cast D.Door" is your best first line of defense levels 11+, because unless the harmful effect has unlimited range, you should be able to teleport out of range, or teleport behind something that can block LoS/LoE.
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Personally, when it comes to gestalt casters I always advise doing any combination of the following:
1) pair a Spontaneous caster with a Prepared Caster. The reason for this is for the increased versatility. Use your spontaneous casters limited spells known for all your combat spells and make sure they get the highest CL and casting stat so you have good save DCs in combat. Meanwhile your spontaneous casting class can focus on utility spells and buffs, spells where CL is the only thing that matters. This opens up more combinations by not requiring both casting stats to be the same (though it is still recommended)
2) pair Arcane/Divine/Psychic… instead of taking two of the same type of caster mix and match… not only does this broaden your spell access but it can increase your combat options too. For instance, Divine casters always have 3/4 BAB, so your Wizard/Cleric will have an easier time landing any attack roll spell they cast than they would have had as a Wizard/Sorcerer. Psychic spellcasting enables you to keep casting when paralyzed, which is phenomenal… that said a Gestalt Psychic/Divine Spellcaster is probably the single best combination type in this regard…
3) pair a full caster with a partial caster that has good utility… Bard immediately springs to mind here… with this setup, you build primarily for your full caster, but you use the partial casting class to enhance your abilities and/or your party members. Similar to before, casting stat matching isn’t an issue here since your spells from your partial caster should be used for utility and buffs only, and since you would only get up to 6th level spells a 16 is plenty high enough and easy to get by the time you get your first 6th level spell.
4) single class caster with a pure mundane utility class… Wizard/Phantom Thief Rogue can be a good option… as you already know, casters don’t gain much from gestalt due to action economy issues… but with something like the phantom thief rogue who is pure utility, you can greatly increase your value in the party…
5) white haired witch + any other caster with touch spells… this is basically a martial Spellcaster on steroids… though it is highly advised to stick to Int based casters for this combination… long range melee touch spells is always nice though…
6) kineticist… simply pair a caster with kineticist… only pick up utility and buff spells and let your kinetic blast be your damage source… probably won’t feel like a gestalt Spellcaster in the long run though…
The most important rule…
ALWAYS pair your first choice with another class that gives you something you don’t already have… no point in playing a gestalt caster with two near identical classes…
Dual caster defeats the purpose of gestalt: both classes are doing the same thing.
If it does not have to be 2 level 9 casters, paladins are technically casters. A paladin/oracle could be quite nasty.
Some gestalt casters that have decent action economy:
Arcanist//magus (eldritch archer) 9/arcane archer 3/magus +X; magus arcana Broad Study, Reach Spellstrike, and Distant Spellstrike
Barbarian (or bloodrager)//sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 4/sorcerer +X*; take the Eldritch Heritage/Improved Eldritch Heritage feats in either Abyssal or Orc bloodlines (to pick up Strength of the Abyss or Strength of the Beast at 11th level) and focus on self-buffing plus polymorph spells
Alternately, druid//sorcerer (wildblooded; Celestial/Empyreal) can technically cast both druid and sorcerer spells in wild shape (both Wis-based casting, also) with Natural Spell; and sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat to boot
If your GM allows both the crossblooded and wildblooded archetypes on the same character, then occultist//sorcerer (crossblooded, wildblooded; Arcane/Sage and Psychic) can have effectively full BAB (with Trappings of the Warrior panoply at 2nd level), is an Int-based caster with occultist (up to 6th-level spells) and sorcerer (up to 9th-level spells) spells, and all sorcerer spells can be cast in armor without spell failure (using though and emotion components instead of verbal and somatic components).
*- barbarian (or bloodrager)//wizard 4/skald (spell warrior) 1/dragon disciple 4 (advance wizard spellcasting)/wizard +X can also work
If you're truly married to playing a dual-9th level caster, consider going Witch/Arcanist. Hexes debuff saves, and Arcane Reservoir + Potent Magic Exploit increases your DC.It doesn't have to be dual 9th level casters, but I'm trying to see if any dual caster, that's not a combat build, is viable in gestalt.
For non-combat dual-caster gestalt, warpriest//sorcerer (wildblooded; Celestial/Empyreal) would probably be one of the better options, taking advantage of Fervor to cast prepared warpriest spells as swift actions in the same round as sorcerer spells, starting at 2nd level and without increasing the spell level of the swift warpriest spells. Both casting off of Wis, as well, so that can be pumped as high as possible.
I have a few full BAB, all good saves, 9th-level gestalt combinations that I am relatively content with...
Nagaji Snakebite Striker Brawler gestalt with Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer, using the Serpentine/Envenomed Bloodline and Spit Venom feat chain. Snakebite Striker gives up Martial Flexibility for for Sneak Attack and feinting shenanigans, but Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer gets Martial Flexibility... so it works out pretty well. Lots of fun snake stuff going on.
Or howa'bout an Ankou Shadow Slayer gestalt with Blade Adept Arcanist using the Dimensional Slide Exploit and the Dimensional Savant feat chain?
Nature Fang Druid and Bolt Ace Gunslinger using a 17-20/×4 bludgeoning crossbow?
I was going to suggest a sorcerer archetype, but alas I can't seem to find it. It allowed sorcerers to use INT as their main casting stat, thus making them stack well with other INT spell casters like witch or wizard. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?
Wildblooded archetype for the Arcane/Sage bloodline, as noted above.
Flame Dancer-Flamesinger Bard/ Sorcerer with the Groveborn/Verdant Bloodline...
Fire Music wrote:
If you cast a summon monster spell as a bard spell, you may choose to give the summoned creature a fiery appearance, which gives it fire resistance 5 and adds +1 fire damage to all of its natural attacks. The creature sheds dim light in a 5-foot radius. This aspect of the feat has no effect if the creature already has the fire subtype.
When you use this feat, the affected spell gains the fire descriptor.
Groveborn Bloodline wrote:
Lush Summoning (Su): At 3rd level, whenever you summon creatures with a conjuration (summoning) spell, you can decide that they appear green and leafy. The natural armor bonus of such creatures is increased by +2, and they gain a +4 bonus on saves against paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, and stunning.
Toss in Augmented Summons, and you get:
Fire Music + Lush Summoning + Augment Summons =
Fire Resist 5, +1 fire damage,
Natural Armor +2, +4 saves vs
Paralysis, Poison, Polymorph, Sleep, and
Stunning,
+4 Strength, +4 Constitution
I like to use the Treeborn Gathlain for this build, because it is a little flying tree-person fairie-thing... without a Strength or Constitution penalty. And Wildfire increases your speed anyways, so the pathetic land speed is trivial. You just fly around with an open Eversmoking Bottle, singing the Song of Fiery Gaze, and summon burning leaf monsters...
Found a 9th-level caster in my gestalt'ed racial archetypes folder, for the "Quintessential" Kitsune...
UnRogue:
- Bandit, Kitsune Trickster, Underground Chemist
Sorcerer:
- Eldritch Scrapper, Nine Tailed Heir
For more "wild" feel, use;
UnRogue:
- Heister, Kitsune Trickster
Sorcerer:
- Nine Tailed Heir
For more "Rogue" feel, use;
UnRogue:
- Kitsune Trickster, Seeker of the Lost
Sorcerer:
- Nine Tailed Heir, Seeker
Found a fun Alchemist/Arcanist combination mixing the Beastmorph and Vivisectionist Alchemist archetypes with the Brown-Fur Transmuter Arcanist archetype... because Monstrous Physique/Deathsnatcher builds intrigue me.
A Cleric of Sarenae gestalt with a Lantern Lighter Ranger can do god's work late level with the Cleric's Blinding Flash/Nimbus of Light and the Ranger's Stunning Light/Paralyzing Light... spam Fear the Sun, and carry a Glorious melee weapon.
You could be an Android Constructed Pugilist-Living Weapon Brawler/ Crossblooded Sorcerer (Impossible & Nanite). So much robot goodness.
For two full on 9th-level casters, you could be a Cleric/Druid, and worship Brigh... take the Acolyte of Apocrypha faith trait to gain access to the Alchemy subdomain, and take Druidic Herbalism as your Nature Bond. Take Deific Obedience [Brigh] to get the Inspired Alchemy boon. You can also take the Voice of Solid Things regional trait to use Charisma for crafting, which goes with the Cleric's Charisma-based Channels. I like to use a "Gear" Gnome with the Academician and Master Tinker alternative racial features, and usually grab a Drawback for the Spark of Creation magic trait.
A Vine Leshy Herbalist Alchemist gestalt with a Druid with Druidic Herbalism is pretty legit, too... it would work just as well with a Cleric of Brigh, too. Wisdom-based Alchemist, and you're baby Groot!
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something like a barbarian monk gets to rage and have huge damage on a flurry
Nitpick, but by default you can't combine those two. Monk has to be lawful and the barbarian can't be lawful.
But this brings up another misconception. That barbarian monk isn't getting 2 sets of actions either. They are just getting 2 sets of perks added to the same actions. This is no different than being a draconic fire sorcerer/flame oracle adding +1 to every damage die while adding a burn effect for every fire spell.
I don't know of any class combinations that grant the player extra actions, but you can get "free" spells with attacks [and there are ways to get extra attacks]. SpellCombat/Spellstrike [and their ranged versions] immediately come to mind... Arrowsong Minstrel Bard and Eldritch Archer Magus and Myrmidarch Magus all get the ability to attach spells to arrows. And archers can shoot lots and lots in a just about any given round.
But I don't know exactly what is that makes you feel stuck, or that casters do not have class combinations that synergize well. Everyone has the same action economy, and very few things are designed specifically to change that. Even the Monk of the Four Winds-Qinggong-Sensei using Mystic Wisdom to affect the whole party with Slow Time has specific instructions that those THREE free standard actions cannot be used for spells or SLA's. Your best bet is to either find constructive uses for your actions that aren't spent casting spells, or make the spells you do cast uber potent by stacking things like the aforementioned draconic fire sorcerer/flame oracle or nagaji mesmerist/heavens oracle or cleric of sarenae/lantern lighter ranger.
I like to always to be able to do something, so I usually go for finding better uses for otherwise "wasted" actions in a round. Aid Another, Bardic Performance, Combat Advice, Divine Intervention... Tactician... spells actually end up being kinda secondary.
something like a barbarian monk gets to rage and have huge damage on a flurryNitpick, but by default you can't combine those two. Monk has to be lawful and the barbarian can't be lawful.
There is an archetype that allows this to work... (Geminate Invoker Barbarian can be lawful)
There is an archetype that allows this to work... (Geminate Invoker Barbarian can be lawful)something like a barbarian monk gets to rage and have huge damage on a flurryNitpick, but by default you can't combine those two. Monk has to be lawful and the barbarian can't be lawful.
Hence, why I said "by default". And that archetype's rage doesn't grant a bonus to offense, so it really doesn't apply anyway. You'd have been better off to mention the martial artist monk.
Hence, why I said "by default". And that archetype's rage doesn't grant a bonus to offense, so it really doesn't apply anyway. You'd have been better off to mention the martial artist monk.There is an archetype that allows this to work... (Geminate Invoker Barbarian can be lawful)something like a barbarian monk gets to rage and have huge damage on a flurryNitpick, but by default you can't combine those two. Monk has to be lawful and the barbarian can't be lawful.
If you ever do want to be a Barbarian//Monk, remember that Bloodragers don't have the alignment restrictions that Barbarians do. There's also at least 1 archetype that replaces casting and is compatible with Primalist, so you can make a pretty good Barbarian-esque Bloodrager that can multiclass/Gestalt with Monk that way.
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My favorite caster Gestalt was playing an Exploiter Pact Wizard + Silksworn Occultist. Thanks to a GM Favor I was allowed to select the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply as my final Silksworn Implement.
It was an amazing gestalt. Mage's Paraphernalia gave free floating metamagic, along with potential caster level increases. Silksworn's DC boosting and ability to hide spellcasting worked based on which spell school you had access to, thus it also worked freely with Wizard spells.
Obviously, Exploiter Pact Wizard was still the "meat" of the build, but Silksworn Occultist with Mage's Paraphernalia really covered my bases, I feel. Abjuration Implement helped make me somewhat tanky, and I had a lot of staying power with Focus Powers to fall back on.
EDIT: I'm seeing people talk about Barbarian / Monk without mentioning the Martial Artist archetype for Monk. It removes alignment restrictions AND gives you early rage cycling via immunity to fatigue at level 5. It's the best gestalt with Barbarian in 1pp, IMHO. Especially if you're using the best Barbarian archetype, Beastkin Berserker.
Beastkin Berserker transforms you into a animal via Beast Shape I - III. With Monk's unarmored AC bonus, this isn't a problem. Plus, you can use Monk's enhanced unarmed strike damage with up to Huge sized animals, for easy damage boosting. It's a really good combination, IMHO.
I like to take things further by stacking Beastkin Berserker with Savage Technologist, for a DEX-increasing rage. This improves your AC when you rage and gets rid of "Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome" because you no longer adjust your CON. Savage Technologist can also be combined with Savage Barbarian for just a bit more Unarmored AC. Combined with a diminutive form, and the Barbarian can get insanely high AC, especially with Martial Artist Monk's Exploit Weakness ability. +2 to hit and the ability to bypass hardness or DR is great, but half level to AC instead is insane value, IMHO.
My favorite caster Gestalt was playing an Exploiter Pact Wizard + Silksworn Occultist. Thanks to a GM Favor I was allowed to select the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply as my final Silksworn Implement.
Just note that Silksworn can't take Panoplies, so unless you have a forgiving GM like Kaouse this isn't an option. If I had to choose between the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply and the Silksworn archetype I think I'd go with the Panoply , but either one would offer some nice goodies.
EDIT: I'm seeing people talk about Barbarian / Monk without mentioning the Martial Artist archetype for Monk. It removes alignment restrictions AND gives you early rage cycling via immunity to fatigue at level 5. It's the best gestalt with Barbarian in 1pp, IMHO. Especially if you're using the best Barbarian archetype, Beastkin Berserker.
We went with Weapon Adept Monk, this opened up some combat feats that a monk or barbarian normally can't get.
Right now at 10th level, when hasted and using a ki point to get an extra attack on flurry, she has 8 attacks per round, the first 4 being at +21 to hit, doing 1d8 +28
My favorite caster Gestalt was playing an Exploiter Pact Wizard + Silksworn Occultist. Thanks to a GM Favor I was allowed to select the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply as my final Silksworn Implement.Just note that Silksworn can't take Panoplies, so unless you have a forgiving GM like Kaouse this isn't an option. If I had to choose between the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply and the Silksworn archetype I think I'd go with the Panoply , but either one would offer some nice goodies.
Panoplies requires specific items to be your Implements in order to select them. Silksworn requires different specific worn items in specific slots in order to be your implement.
There is a way that you can select Trappings of the Warrior as a Silksworn, but it relies on an obscure Technological Item that counts as both a shield & a worn item of the proper slot (Hard Light Shield)... as well as an obscure Scaling Magic Item that counts as both a weapon & a worn item of the proper slot (Brutish Boots).
Pretty hard sell in most cases. That said, if your GM allows it, then note that Trappings of the Warrior isn't very thematically appropriate with Silksworn (who gets rid of a lot of armor and weapon proficiency), so asking your GM to trade it out for Mage's Paraphernalia or Performer's Accoutrements might not be impossible.
EDIT: I'm seeing people talk about Barbarian / Monk without mentioning the Martial Artist archetype for Monk. It removes alignment restrictions AND gives you early rage cycling via immunity to fatigue at level 5. It's the best gestalt with Barbarian in 1pp, IMHO. Especially if you're using the best Barbarian archetype, Beastkin Berserker.
We went with Weapon Adept Monk, this opened up some combat feats that a monk or barbarian normally can't get.
Right now at 10th level, when hasted and using a ki point to get an extra attack on flurry, she has 8 attacks per round, the first 4 being at +21 to hit, doing 1d8 +28
Those are good offensive values, but I personally think Martial Artist offers more. If you can make your Exploit Weakness check, then you gain an equivalent bonus to Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus. What you lose out on damage is made up with Rage & Beast Shape, so it's not like you really need all that much more.
I also place a lot of stock in early rage-cycling, though that might just be because I'm somewhat of a dirty power gamer, lol.
Panoplies requires specific items to be your Implements in order to select them. Silksworn requires different specific worn items in specific slots in order to be your implement.There is a way that you can select Trappings of the Warrior as a Silksworn, but it relies on an obscure Technological Item that counts as both a shield & a worn item of the proper slot (Hard Light Shield)... as well as an obscure Scaling Magic Item that counts as both a weapon & a worn item of the proper slot (Brutish Boots).
You do know the Feet slot Weapon is a lot easier to cover than that… there is a simple mundane weapon that qualifies. The Blade Boot no need to search for an obscure item with it… the Wrist slot Shield however is a much harder sell…
Evangelist Cleric gets the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level... Charisma-based Bardic Performance pool, Charisma-based Channel Energy, but is otherwise still a Wisdom-based Cleric.
Gestalt that with an actual Bard that archetypes out of any/all of the Bardic Performance the Evangelist gets... and there you go. There are so many Bard archetypes that stack, you can probably build almost anything you want.
It's got 3/4 BAB, all good saves, 6/9 arcane casting, and 9/9 divine casting... Wisdom is your main stat, technically, but as a Cleric you usually can carry similar Charisma to a battle-focused Bard prettt easily. I think there is both the synergy you seem to be seeking, and a huge amount of versatility/opportunity with such a combination.
You do know the Feet slot Weapon is a lot easier to cover than that… there is a simple mundane weapon that qualifies. The Blade Boot no need to search for an obscure item with it… the Wrist slot Shield however is a much harder sell…
Panoplies requires specific items to be your Implements in order to select them. Silksworn requires different specific worn items in specific slots in order to be your implement.There is a way that you can select Trappings of the Warrior as a Silksworn, but it relies on an obscure Technological Item that counts as both a shield & a worn item of the proper slot (Hard Light Shield)... as well as an obscure Scaling Magic Item that counts as both a weapon & a worn item of the proper slot (Brutish Boots).
Blade Boot is a weapon, but doesn't explicitly occupy the Feet slot, unfortunately. I chose Brutish Boots specifically because there was no ambiguity in the rules. But hey, if your GM will allow it, by all means!
Pick a theme, any theme... I chose Shadow for this example...
Take an Umbral Scion Sorcerer with the Shadow Bloodline and gestalt it with an Oracle with the Shadow Mystery. Or either of those two with a Shadow Bloodline Bloodrager. Be a Wayang Shadow Puppeteer Bard gestalt with any of those. Or a Fetchling Shadow Caller Summoner with any of those [except the Wayang Bard, obviously]. Don't forget the Eldritch Scion Magus get Bloodline Powers, too. Pretty sure there is a shadow-summoning Mesmerist... yep, Umbral Mesmerist... that adds a 6/9 psychic casting option to the mix. And they're ALL Charisma-based!
It is pretty easy is find lots of overlapping/stacking synergy with spellcasters. None of it necessarily breaks action econmy in a way that a single class spellcaster couldn't otherwise do, but your options and power are near limitless!
On a different note, if you consider adding metamagic to spontaneous spells without increasing casting time equivalent to possibly casting multiple spells in one round... there are multiple ways to get such things. Magician Bard and the Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline immediately spring to mind, although I am sure there are plenty more than that. Could probably find some extra creative ways to abuse Sacred Geometry.
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On a different note, if you consider adding metamagic to spontaneous spells without increasing casting time equivalent to possibly casting multiple spells in one round... there are multiple ways to get such things. Magician Bard and the Arcane Sorcerer Bloodline immediately spring to mind, although I am sure there are plenty more than that. Could probably find some extra creative ways to abuse Sacred Geometry.
Actually METAMAGIC RAGER might be good for this. When you hit level 11 you can also cast as a free action with Greater Bloodrage, and activating Bloodline powers is potentially a free action casting of another SLA-kinda-thing.
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An Urban-Metamagic Rager with the Arcane Bloodline gestalt with a Magician Bard was actually my first suggestion. Lol. I do think such tricks are as close to dual casting as one can get in gestalt without Mystic Theurge.
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The Umbral Sorcerer/Oracle of Shadow has some very good synergy going for it.
Umbral sorcerer increases your caster level while in dim light or darkness. You get deeper darkness as a bonus spell on both lists. Pierce the Shadows allows you to see even in deeper darkness. Being able to boost your caster level by casting a spell that does not affect you at all is very useful. Normally having the same spell on both lists would be a drawback but in this case it allows you to be able to spam it out like crazy.
Shadow Mastery increases the strength of your shadow spell and stacks with the feat Solid Shadows. At 10th level that increases the strength of shadow conjuration to 50% when cast as a 5th level spell. When you get access to the higher level versions they become nearly as strong as the spells them mimic. Considering this characters focus on illusion that is an incredible boost. Just be sure to take spell focus and greater spell focus illusion. If you make it to 20th level your shadow spells gain an additional 20% bonus.
Most of the revelations of the oracle of shadow are constant or long lasting so do not require any actions to activate. Cloak of Darkness gives you a scaling bonus to AC and stealth rolls. Shadow Mastery and Pierce the Shadows are always active. Army of Darkness and Dark Secrets modify spell casting so do not require any additional actions. You also gain Darkvsion from both classes and they stack so you can see a lot farther than normal in the dark.
Play a half elf and take the Even Spirt feat at 1st level. This also allows you to gain an extra spell known in each class as a favored class bonus. The Pranked curse will give you a couple of nice illusion spells. Take skill focus stealth (half elf free skill focus) and Stealthy and max out stealth. Pick up silent spell as a bloodline feat. Spell focus and greater spell focus illusion is pretty obvious choice.
This character can sit back hiding in darkness (normal or self-created), and spam out spells all day long. If you really want to break the action economy use summoning spells. Now you get more actions the longer combat goes on. This tactic may be frowned upon at some tables, but if you want break the action economy that is the easiest way to do it as a caster.
You can find the same synergy with literally any element, light instead of shadow, domination, teleportation, divination... some deities offer two 9/9 caster archetypes, or at least multiple archetypes across classes that could compliment eachother and synergize well together. Gestalt is awesome like that, you can pretty much tell a story with class features... just pick a theme [and probably a primary casting stat].
PS. Go to AoN's search, hit "check all", type in your chosen theme [like "shadow"], view the possibilities... the opportunites... the deities and domains and traits and feats and races and...
I actually want to take a closer look at the Nagaji Mesmerist/Heavens Oracle gestalt combination...
The Mesmerist's Mental Potency:
At 5th level, the mesmerist can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal with his mental effects. Both the HD limit and the total number of HD affected with each enchantment or illusion spell he casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells he casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). For example, a 5th level mesmerist could affect 5 HD worth of creatures with sleep, affect 2d4+1 HD worth of creatures with hypnotism, and change the categories for color spray to “3 HD or fewer,” “4 or 5 HD,” and “6 or more HD.” The number of additional HD or creatures increases by an additional 1 for every 5 levels beyond 5th, to a maximum increase of 4 at 20th level.
Nagaji Mesmerist FCB:
Add 1/5 to the Hit-Die limit and the total number of Hit Die affected with each enchantment or illusion spell the mesmerist casts. This bonus stacks with the mesmerist’s mental potency class feature and is applicable under the same conditions as that ability.
Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).
That's better than I even hoped... I have a level 5 Nagaji Mesmerist, with his FCB and Mental Potency, Color Spray is already affecting 2HD higher targets for each category! With his modest 18 Charisma, targets would now virtually be 4HD lower! A constant +2HD/-4HD at level 5?
Any target with fewer than twice your Hit Dice is screwed! Oracles are 9/9 casters, probably rocking a 28 Charisma... so your targets literally subtract 9 virtual Hit Dice, and you will get 8 additional Hit Dice for the sake of targeting... baller AF.
Here are a couple of solutions:
- Play a Necromancer and use both classes to reach an insane HD pool of Undead minions. Bonus points for violating Gestalt guidelines and throwing Mythic Theurg in somehow. With your Undead army, you will now have more actions, than you could ever hope for.
- Oracle/Eldritch Scion Magus with Broad study has quite a lot of Arcane and Divine Spells and a decent Action Economy.
Here are a couple of solutions:
- Play a Necromancer and use both classes to reach an insane HD pool of Undead minions. Bonus points for violating Gestalt guidelines and throwing Mythic Theurg in somehow. With your Undead army, you will now have more actions, than you could ever hope for.- Oracle/Eldritch Scion Magus with Broad study has quite a lot of Arcane and Divine Spells and a decent Action Economy.
I've already played the Cleric Lord of the Undead Necromancer, The GM has since banned any class that can have more than a single "minion".
but the oracle sounds interesting.
I want to thanks everyone for their comments. I've seen a lot of good ideas.
I'll play around with some of these and post what I come up with closer to the campaign start.
- Play a Necromancer and use both classes to reach an insane HD pool of Undead minions. Bonus points for violating Gestalt guidelines and throwing Mythic Theurg in somehow. With your Undead army, you will now have more actions, than you could ever hope for.
Gestalt necromancer...
I'd probably go with oracle (Bones mystery, Undead Servitude revelation)//witch (gravewalker, hex channeler). Note that the effectiveness of the Command Undead feat is based on (effective) cleric level (witch level for hex channeler), not the number of dice; the witch can keep it at 1d6 (not using any other hex choices after 2nd level to increase the negative energy damage) and still gain the increases to the save DC and control more HD of undead automatically from higher levels. Not to mention the gravewalker's Aura of Desecration (20 ft radius + 5 ft every 2 additional levels; max. 70 ft at 20th level) to boost the save DC, Bonethrall at 4th level to take control of undead, and Possess Undead at 8th level. The gravewalker's spell poppet can allow the character to deliver touch spells as ranged touch attacks within the Aura of Desecration from 3rd level on, too.
Cleric//witch would require concentrating on Int, Wis, and Cha instead of just Int and Cha. Cleric//oracle would have the same spell list for both sets of spell slots, which can cost the ability to cast some really nice spells.
Urgathoa offers the Dirge Bard, Gravewalker Witch, and Undead Lord Cleric... of those, I would go Bard/Cleric, but that's just me. Honestly, I probably wouldn't even play a Necromancer without Agent of the Grave, gestalt or not.
It's not that one could not an effective Necromancer make, but Agent of the Grave simply embodies my quintessential PF1 Necromancer toolkit so well... that without it, I feel... incomplete. One may dabble, but only the devout walk the whispering way.
A gestalt Necromancer could, I suppose, use the Knight of the Sepulcher AntiPaladin to join the ranks of the Undead [and keep their mind]... but that still takes 20 levels. Agent of the Grave allows one to keep their mind in 5 levels. Lol. It is full BAB, D10 hit dice, and two good saves... so it's not a terrible back half of a gestalt Necromancer. I'm sure their is at leadt one Sorcerer Bloodline that could really patch any holes in the Undead traits' defenses with its 20th level capstone Bloodline Power... but an Oracle wouldn't have to worry about ASF with armor. Oradin is a more popular mix, anyways... people only mix Paladins and Sorcerers to make Dragon Disciples. Divine Paragon Cleric of Urgathoa might do well with the AntiPaladin, too.
Reanimator Alchemist and Undead Master Wizard is a fun mix... the Reanimator Alchemist archetype stacks with the Ectoplasm Master archetype, for added creepiness. But, without Agent of the Grave... it's all just BS posturing. Me-thinks. You could also use a Witch instead of a Wizard, I just liked that Undead Master gets Reanimator (Su), and that matches the name of the Alchemist archetype. Lol.
For a Gravewalker Witch, I think a Sylvan Trickster UnRogue makes a more interesting combination.
My favorite Necromancer without Agent of the Grave is an Instructor Wizard focused on Necromancy with another Instructor Wizard focused on Necromancy as their apprentice. And THAT Instructor Wizard focused on Necromancy has ANOTHER Instructor Wizard focused on Necromancy as their apprentice... it's a pretty solid start to establishing a decent Necromancer presence in the neighborhood (and NOT a bad use of Leadership, should you be allowed to design your own Cohort). In a gestalt combination, I would use Vanguard Slayer as the other half, because it makes it full BAB, all good saves, 6+Int skills per level, 9th-level spells, and lots of access to teamwork feats (with multiple ways to use them).
What about the Necromancy Occultist as half a gestalt with...?