Dear Abby,
One of my best players is having trouble acclimating to 4E (we'll call him George). Now I love the new system, and my other 5 players are content as well. George, however, has recently complained privately that running his character (a 2nd level Rogue) in 4E is much more complicated than it should be, and that having to recalculate his attack rolls every time he selects a new exploit or power is a real PitA.
Here's a recent quote:
To be perfectly candid, keeping track of all those munchkin powers and exploits have all but ruined the game for me. I miss the days when I could roll a twenty-sider and actually just play the game....Oh, how I miss battles that only take an hour! Oh, how I miss not having to collect my powers like cards from Magic: the Gathering!
Do you have any advice on how to help George acclimate to the new rules? He doesn't want to quit the game, he isn't distracting to the other players, and he's not bogging down the game in any way. I found some Excel character sheets that do all of the calculations for him, so I'm hoping that will help. George is an awesome role-player, so I'd hate to lose him.
Abby, do you have any advice? I need advice, not material to back-up a debate. I don't want to debate how wonderful 4E is, I just want to alleviate some of his concerns so he can enjoy the game.
Troubled DM
Is the campaign you are currently running in D&D4 the continuity of a previous one in D&D3.5 ?
Does this George fellow miss some aspects of the game other than the fighting rules ?
Did you gather all the players and talk about this ?
If some issues are brought about some missing points or confusing new rules, maybe you should all talk about the pros and cons, and after a referendum decide which system you will use.
Don't assume the other players are satisfied with the new system, ask them if they do really.
Some players don't always express their feelings or frustrations, they just keep them inside, and that's worse than actually expressing their issues or complaining.
One of the duties of a DM is to make sure that his players are having some good time in the campaign and catch up with the rules. If they don't, for any of the two, he should encourage them to ask any question they have.
The point of the game is to gather friends and to enjoy a good game. Whatever the rules.
Good luck.
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Dear Abby,
One of my best players is having trouble acclimating to 4E (we'll call him George). Now I love the new system, and my other 5 players are content as well. George, however, has recently complained privately that running his character (a 2nd level Rogue) in 4E is much more complicated than it should be, and that having to recalculate his attack rolls every time he selects a new exploit or power is a real PitA.
Here's a recent quote:
To be perfectly candid, keeping track of all those munchkin powers and exploits have all but ruined the game for me. I miss the days when I could roll a twenty-sider and actually just play the game....Oh, how I miss battles that only take an hour! Oh, how I miss not having to collect my powers like cards from Magic: the Gathering!Do you have any advice on how to help George acclimate to the new rules? He doesn't want to quit the game, he isn't distracting to the other players, and he's not bogging down the game in any way. I found some Excel character sheets that do all of the calculations for him, so I'm hoping that will help. George is an awesome role-player, so I'd hate to lose him.
Abby, do you have any advice? I need advice, not material to back-up a debate. I don't want to debate how wonderful 4E is, I just want to alleviate some of his concerns so he can enjoy the game.
Troubled DM
Hi, not Abby but I'll give it a go ;-)
Ok first I'll resist the urge to comment on peoples ability to do basic math (Hmm, attack against will succeeded, darn!). It's all about prep, a few well structured blank power cards and all he has to do is pop the numbers in the right slots do some beyond basic addition and presto, all worked out. I don't mean to sound sarcastic but why is that difficult?
Stat+ability+(1/2 level)+Misc mods=#
As for battles taking a long time, well in fairness one of the common criticisms I agree with is that fights really take about as long as 3E, you just tend to have more rounds (go's).
Common speed up techniques;
Initiative cards
Pre-roll bad guy initiative
Limit decision making to 60 seconds
Encourage players to look up power effects BEFORE their go or even better use index/power cards.
Using power cards are nothing like MtG, I used to do it for memorised spells in 2E & 3E, as well as feats. It's a convenient way to have info to hand without referring to the books every five seonds.
Hmm, not exceptionally helpful here. If you could highlight some of the issues specifically I'd be happy to take another stab at it.
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It helps to keep a list with the basic attack bonus he has for all weapons he uses.
As a rogue he will probably only use weapons that use Dex. modifier for attack bonus.
Now he only has to add the Powers' bonus to Attack and/or damage.
I did this for my rogue who used daggers, shurrikans, short sword (magic+1) and sling and had no problems.
Dear Abby,
One of my best players is having trouble acclimating to 4E (we'll call him George). Now I love the new system, and my other 5 players are content as well. George, however, has recently complained privately that running his character (a 2nd level Rogue) in 4E is much more complicated than it should be, and that having to recalculate his attack rolls every time he selects a new exploit or power is a real PitA.
Here's a recent quote:
To be perfectly candid, keeping track of all those munchkin powers and exploits have all but ruined the game for me. I miss the days when I could roll a twenty-sider and actually just play the game....Oh, how I miss battles that only take an hour! Oh, how I miss not having to collect my powers like cards from Magic: the Gathering!Do you have any advice on how to help George acclimate to the new rules? He doesn't want to quit the game, he isn't distracting to the other players, and he's not bogging down the game in any way. I found some Excel character sheets that do all of the calculations for him, so I'm hoping that will help. George is an awesome role-player, so I'd hate to lose him.
Abby, do you have any advice? I need advice, not material to back-up a debate. I don't want to debate how wonderful 4E is, I just want to alleviate some of his concerns so he can enjoy the game.
Troubled DM
The first question is, has George decided he doesn't like the game before it started, has George decided 4E is a computer game on a tabletop, is George giving it a fair chance? If the answers are negative you're going to have snags. I had the same misgivings when I first read the PHB 4E but the more I read of the DMG the more I saw the game as a roleplaying game rather than a tabletop WOW simulator. Roleplaying itself is not changed and now he needs to get into the idea of roleplaying his powers.
Instead of Saying 'I Cleave' he needs to describe striking wide and catching the other foe, for a Healing strike he can roleplay by announcing 'I call on (diety) to bless my blow and aid my friends'.Try challenging him to try roleplaying the powers rather than complaining about them being munchkinned.
As for the math complaint, I gotto say it's not the math that seems to be the issue but reading the powers format. Understanding what he can do. After all the fighter no longer enters the round with just 'I try to hit him' or 'I try to hit him but power attacking 2'.
Thanks for the comments, everyone!
George's criticicm surfaced after I (privately) commented on the fact that he was only using his Basic Attack during combat, instead of taking advatage of his various exploits.
It's not the math - he's a reasonably smart guy (heck, he's a published fiction author). If I had to guess it probably has to do with pre-game prep. He's old school. He prefers to print out a one page single-sided sheet, like you could back in 2E. The 4E sheet overwhelms him. He jokingly likened his inability to acclimate himself to the new rules to a "General Protection Fault" error. He said with all of his other projects he has limited brain capacity set aside for RPGs, and that 4E, with it's "clunky" rules, are wrecking havoc with his subsystem. (Yeah, he's a kook, but he's a really good player and friend.) We've only had 3 game sessions so far, so I'm hoping the system will grow on him soon.
Of my 5 other players, 2 are veteran gamers that LOVE the 4E rules. Two others are brand new to role-playing, and the last player is the 9-yr-old son of one of the new players, so he's new too. Everyone is having a great time at the table. We're all close friends - we play mainly to enjoy each other's company.
As DM, I've taken it upon myself to make things easier for my players (especially the newbies). I'm hoping the Excel character sheets I found online will help. They let you print out separate pages for your exploits and feats that contain full descriptions and all the calculations done for you. I hope it helps!
Thanks for the comments, everyone!
George's criticicm surfaced after I (privately) commented on the fact that he was only using his Basic Attack during combat, instead of taking advatage of his various exploits.
It's not the math - he's a reasonably smart guy (heck, he's a published fiction author). If I had to guess it probably has to do with pre-game prep. He's old school. He prefers to print out a one page single-sided sheet, like you could back in 2E. The 4E sheet overwhelms him. He jokingly likened his inability to acclimate himself to the new rules to a "General Protection Fault" error. He said with all of his other projects he has limited brain capacity set aside for RPGs, and that 4E, with it's "clunky" rules, are wrecking havoc with his subsystem. (Yeah, he's a kook, but he's a really good player and friend.) We've only had 3 game sessions so far, so I'm hoping the system will grow on him soon.
Of my 5 other players, 2 are veteran gamers that LOVE the 4E rules. Two others are brand new to role-playing, and the last player is the 9-yr-old son of one of the new players, so he's new too. Everyone is having a great time at the table. We're all close friends - we play mainly to enjoy each other's company.
As DM, I've taken it upon myself to make things easier for my players (especially the newbies). I'm hoping the Excel character sheets I found online will help. They let you print out separate pages for your exploits and feats that contain full descriptions and all the calculations done for you. I hope it helps!
Best thing is to try and get him to roleplay his characters Powers, if he's a good roleplayer(which sounds to be the case) he might get a new kick out of playing his character.
Being a rogue in 3E combat would normally be 'I'm dodging that guy and attacking this guy', now he can go 'I duck to his right and stab into his ribs to drive him backward(Positioning Strike) or 'focusing on my attack I try to drive him where I want him(Trick Strike).You can descibe what your doing with your powers hundreds of ways and roleplay them but only if your interested in doing so.
Where did you find the Excel Spreadsheet by the way, can you point me to it please?
Thanks for the comments, everyone!
George's criticicm surfaced after I (privately) commented on the fact that he was only using his Basic Attack during combat, instead of taking advatage of his various exploits.
Well, I'd like to give George props for keeping his problem with the system from ruining the game for everyone else. That's quite good of him.
If his problem is that he wants a single page for his character sheet, then I think it's just a matter of getting him the right sheet. There's no reason his various exploits cant be written out in an easy fashion on the front page of his sheet. As others have said, precalculating his attacks would make that sort of thing easy to manage, and if he basicly had a list of choices to choose from he'd probably be pretty well off.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Just have an extra page with his character sheet that lists his powers and has all the math already done - then he just needs to glance at the page when he uses the power, roll what is needed and the job is done.
I have done this on my character sheet for every RPG I've ever played. It really helps me focus more on the game and less on the mechanics. When I need a mechanic, it's already written down for me.
I don't play 4e, but I think this approach should work for it just as it has worked for me with 2E, 3/3.5E, GURPS, Deadlands, etc.
It could really help George get used to the system without him getting frustrated. If he doesn't have a lot of pre-game prep time, maybe you could put this sheet together for him before each game session.
I certainly know what it's like DM'ing characters who have trouble with the math. I have 2 players (21 and 25 years old) who have to use their fingers to calculate 6+9 after a die roll.
Best thing I've found is just to create power cards with blank spaces in all the spots they'll have to add up bonuses. Fill these spots with the total bonuses and then they'll never have to keep track of more than one two bonuses from buffs and combat advantage. This is no different than any previous edition of DnD.
My players actually have trouble remembering what their powers do from one round to another and they've been playing at the same level for over 4 sessions. It just doesn't mesh with some people. If they want rules lite games than DnD hasn't been the choice for that in nearly 20 years. We just have to work with whatever players we can find sometimes. ;)
Where did you find the Excel Spreadsheet by the way, can you point me to it please?
Sure. I'm using Wonko's 4E sheet.
I'm just going to throw in my two cents for power cards. You certianly can play by pre-calculating your powers on your character sheet but power cards are a very easy way to keep track of what the different powers do without really having to scan the sheet. I suppose you still have to find the correct card but, in my experience, thats really pretty easy and then you have the write up as well.
To be perfectly candid, keeping track of all those munchkin powers and exploits have all but ruined the game for me. I miss the days when I could roll a twenty-sider and actually just play the game....Oh, how I miss battles that only take an hour! Oh, how I miss not having to collect my powers like cards from Magic: the Gathering!
That last sentance makes me think that power cards may not the the most appropriate thing, if it might remind him even more of MtG.
If you've got a cut and paste version of the ruleset, or your power cards are editable, try to put all the information on one sheet, with all the calculations already done, so it looks more like a spell list.
But, I don't think the math is the real issue, I think the problem is mindset based; he admits that he sees the powers and exploits as munchkin.
So, you need to shift the way you describe them. I agree with above commentary, make the use of the exploits story/role-playing based. Try to show him that his Powers and Exploits are how a story based character manipulates the world around him to his advantage, not so much about feats of nearly super heroic derring do.
He uses "King's Castle" describe how at the perfect moment the monster moves, the Rogue stabs him distracting him so that his buddy can drop back while the Rogue's shoulder roll takes him into his buddy's square.
If he has "Positioning Strike" when he hits the bad guy just as he's getting ready to move, momentarily putting him off balance so his move takes him where the rogue wanted him to go.
Don't make it, "You hit the bad guy, he flies three squares in the direction you want" like the Rogue is some sort of Wuxia/Wire Fu character.
Although if that works for you/him, run with it. Whatever works.
...If I had to guess it probably has to do with pre-game prep. He's old school. He prefers to print out a one page single-sided sheet, like you could back in 2E. The 4E sheet overwhelms him. He jokingly likened his inability to acclimate himself to the new rules to a "General Protection Fault" error.
Most of my gaming group agree that the WotC PDF character sheet is [CENSORED]. Less than desirable is a nicer way of putting it. And don't get me started on the purchasable character sheets.
Being schooled in Office, I got my character sheet condensed to one-page landscaped and some power cards I made in Word. I then folded it in half; one side for combat and the other for generally non-combat stuff. That worked for the first few levels, but it started to get more difficult to keep it to a single page and still be readable. I then found an Excel spreadsheet with lots of formulas and drop-downs for ease of use. I combined that with my homebrew power cards, all printed in color, and it is going very well. Most of my players are using that spreadsheet.
WotC maybe needs to readdress its character sheet layout and clean it up a bit.
But, I don't think the math is the real issue, I think the problem is mindset based; he admits that he sees the powers and exploits as munchkin.
Bingo! You've hit the nail there.
So, you need to shift the way you describe them. ..... Try to show him that his Powers and Exploits are how a story based character manipulates the world around him to his advantage, not so much about feats of nearly super heroic derring do.
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Don't make it, "You hit the bad guy, he flies three squares in the direction you want" like the Rogue is some sort of Wuxia/Wire Fu character.
Excellent suggestions! I think I'll jot down a few thematic notes for each of his Rogue exploits and try them out when we play this Sunday.
Let's see....he has Deft Strike, Riposte Strike, Sly Flourish, Positioning Strike, Trick Strike, and Fleeting Ghost.
Anyone want to offer some descriptions?
But, I don't think the math is the real issue, I think the problem is mindset based; he admits that he sees the powers and exploits as munchkin.Bingo! You've hit the nail there.
So, you need to shift the way you describe them. ..... Try to show him that his Powers and Exploits are how a story based character manipulates the world around him to his advantage, not so much about feats of nearly super heroic derring do.
....
Don't make it, "You hit the bad guy, he flies three squares in the direction you want" like the Rogue is some sort of Wuxia/Wire Fu character.Excellent suggestions! I think I'll jot down a few thematic notes for each of his Rogue exploits and try them out when we play this Sunday.
Let's see....he has Deft Strike, Riposte Strike, Sly Flourish, Positioning Strike, Trick Strike, and Fleeting Ghost.
Anyone want to offer some descriptions?
Try these initial ones:-
Fleeting Ghost-Move with the silence of a cat, quiet but quick.
Sly Flourish- Using speed and guile rather than strength, you feint and strike at exposed flesh.
Riposte Strike-Your strike should leave youre opponent in an exposed postition and you dare him to attack you.
Positioning Strike-You twist low as you strike, stabbing at your opponents legs, forcing him to stumble away from you and ending up where you want him.
Deft Strike-You've trained to use your speed to manauver as you attack and you jump to your enemies flank(side, or front,back etc)
Thing is he needs to start picturing what the attacks are like, he could either go low, acrobatically sideways rolling into the attack or even somersulting into combat(like prince of persia) or use a more 3 musketeers style using his cloak as a distract to feint(Sly Flourish for example). Get his roleplaying juices working and he might start seeing things differently.
To be perfectly candid, keeping track of all those munchkin powers and exploits have all but ruined the game for me. I miss the days when I could roll a twenty-sider and actually just play the game....Oh, how I miss battles that only take an hour! Oh, how I miss not having to collect my powers like cards from Magic: the Gathering!That last sentance makes me think that power cards may not the the most appropriate thing, if it might remind him even more of MtG.
If he actually plays magic I figure that problem won't last long. If he has nothing but a sort of bad stereotype of it, well yeah then this might not work although one might want to point out that having a bad impression of a game one knows nothing about does not really qualify one to form a judgement on other games with similar pieces. Its perfectly conceivable to hate MTG and think No Limit Texas Hold 'Em is a great game - even though they both use cards.
If he actually plays magic I figure that problem won't last long. If he has nothing but a sort of bad stereotype of it, well yeah then this might not work although one might want to point out that having a bad impression of a game one knows nothing about does not really qualify one to form a judgement on other games with similar pieces. Its perfectly conceivable to hate MTG and think No Limit Texas Hold 'Em is a great game - even though they both use cards.That last sentance makes me think that power cards may not the the most appropriate thing, if it might remind him even more of MtG.
Heh, I stopped paying attention to MTG around Ice Age.
And, yeah, it's probably more a stereotypical reaction, using the most common thing of the type as the example.
But, we're trying to convince the player, and so, his perceptions on the situation matter. Shift his mindset away from the "powers are munchkin" and then let him see the utility of the cards (I personally prefer a page with the powers on them, rather than cards, but that's cause I lose cards and fishing on the floor for my Daily Power kinda sucks.) and have that work.
Little Steps. Or, Let's pick the battle we can win, and then work up from there.
Excellent suggestions! I think I'll jot down a few thematic notes for each of his Rogue exploits and try them out when we play this Sunday.
Let's see....he has Deft Strike, Riposte Strike, Sly Flourish, Positioning Strike, Trick Strike, and Fleeting Ghost.
Anyone want to offer some descriptions?
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, had no internet at home, so I've got to steal time from work (lunch and approved breaks only).
Use ProSteve's ideas, they seem pretty good as a starting point.
I'd try to get Player to do it, at least partially, anyways. Let him read the power description, and let him try to visualize what his character is doing. That'll get him more familiar with the way the powers work and what he can do.