Can we hope a Tian Xia lore extension ?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Hello

Like Mwangi Expanse, i'm interested to have more lore, story, campaign and perhaps some races, classes or items from other country, especially Tian Xia. I'm a player of Legends of Five Rings, i really like Hindi legends, and really love the Marco Polo serie, so i'm hype to have a way for playing in Pathfinder with a setting in Tian Xia.

I thing we can expect many things :
Classes or archetypes like Mongol cavalry, Samurai, Shugenja/Shaman, Ninja, Chinese artificier ...
Races or heritage like in Pathfinder 1st edition it have Samsaran
Many new monsters like Oni, Genie, chinese Dragon (like Sovereign), ghost and vampire ...
But the most important to me is the lore, a description of kingdoms that i can play with, Civil war into Minkai, Ruins exploration in Velashu ...

This is impossible to think we can have this in 1 or 2 years ?


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Having mostly Asian/Asian-American authors to write it would be pretty much required for the book not to be yet another white colonialist orientalist fantasy, and assembling that could take time.


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It needs a lot of love, similar to the Mwangi book but even bigger in scale. I don’t envy them.

It’s something I’d love to see, though! Fists of the Ruby Phoenix was a nice appetizer. There are places I’d rather see first (Arcadia!) and bits I don’t love (did we really need /three/ Japans?), but I’m absolutely here for when they get it right.

Horizon Hunters

Three Japans, Paizo? That's insane!

Paizo have already covered some of this stuff Sovereign Dragon is in Bestiary 3, as is a lot of Asian inspired monsters, along with what was provided in Ruby Phoenix.

I would be very interested to see some more Tian Xia flavoured Creatures, Feats and Archetypes but as suggested above Paizo will have to continue their current trend of treading very carefully and using appropriate freelancers.

Wayfinders Contributor

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Paizo assembled a majority african american team for the Mwangi book, and there are a number of awesome asian-american freelancers working for Paizo already. I really want to see a lovely Lost Omens Tian Xia book written with all the amazing talent in our community.

Wayfinders

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I do think that Tian Xia is too big to fit it into a single book - breaking up into smaller metaregions like we saw in Avistan, Garund and now also Arcadia and releasing books based on those would much more readily allow the continent to be made justice.

(Successor States could be one, based on the different kingdoms and their intrigues in the wake of old Lung Wa.)


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I dearly hope Amanandar has changed significantly since we saw it last.


RiverMesa wrote:

I do think that Tian Xia is too big to fit it into a single book - breaking up into smaller metaregions like we saw in Avistan, Garund and now also Arcadia and releasing books based on those would much more readily allow the continent to be made justice.

(Successor States could be one, based on the different kingdoms and their intrigues in the wake of old Lung Wa.)

That, or make it into a megabook like Absolom was. Really as long as the ball gets rolling enough for people to have 2E material I will be happy.


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Don't forget that we got a crash course to the Inner Sea region with Lost Omens World Guide, we could definitely see something similar with other parts of the world.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd love to see the Mwangi Expanse take on Tian Xia, along with Arcadia, and eventually, the Darklands.


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I will say; I would welcome whatever book gets us playable Samsarans back. As a big 4e fangirl, having my Deva-equivalents is very important.


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Mwangi Expanse felt like a pretty chunky, interesting setting book and I'm down for more like it so I would definitely buy a tian Xia book.

Dark Archive

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In a way its kinda sad that we probably need to have setting book that covers rest of the world besides inner sea region in order to set up the meta regions for each continents before we start getting meta region books ^_^;

Like its easy to forget but Mwangi Expanse was one of meta regions while entire continent of Tian Xia presumably wouldn't be one big meta region. And either way mwangi expanse book is amazing for covering one region in super big detail, no way entire continent would have each nation be as satisfyingly amazing detail in one book.


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CorvusMask wrote:

In a way its kinda sad that we probably need to have setting book that covers rest of the world besides inner sea region in order to set up the meta regions for each continents before we start getting meta region books ^_^;

Like its easy to forget but Mwangi Expanse was one of meta regions while entire continent of Tian Xia presumably wouldn't be one big meta region. And either way mwangi expanse book is amazing for covering one region in super big detail, no way entire continent would have each nation be as satisfyingly amazing detail in one book.

Wouldn't Garund be the equivalent of Tian Xia not the Mwangi Expanse?

Dark Archive

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nephandys wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

In a way its kinda sad that we probably need to have setting book that covers rest of the world besides inner sea region in order to set up the meta regions for each continents before we start getting meta region books ^_^;

Like its easy to forget but Mwangi Expanse was one of meta regions while entire continent of Tian Xia presumably wouldn't be one big meta region. And either way mwangi expanse book is amazing for covering one region in super big detail, no way entire continent would have each nation be as satisfyingly amazing detail in one book.

Wouldn't Garund be the equivalent of Tian Xia not the Mwangi Expanse?

¨

That is what I meant though? Like there is no way Tian Xia would get an entire book just about the continent that would be as good as mwangi expanse book because mwangi expanse book isn't about a whole continent


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CorvusMask wrote:
nephandys wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

In a way its kinda sad that we probably need to have setting book that covers rest of the world besides inner sea region in order to set up the meta regions for each continents before we start getting meta region books ^_^;

Like its easy to forget but Mwangi Expanse was one of meta regions while entire continent of Tian Xia presumably wouldn't be one big meta region. And either way mwangi expanse book is amazing for covering one region in super big detail, no way entire continent would have each nation be as satisfyingly amazing detail in one book.

Wouldn't Garund be the equivalent of Tian Xia not the Mwangi Expanse?

¨

That is what I meant though? Like there is no way Tian Xia would get an entire book just about the continent that would be as good as mwangi expanse book because mwangi expanse book isn't about a whole continent

Sorry about that I misread your post.


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I would certainly welcome a Lost Omens: Rest Of The World Guide, laying the ground work for deep dives on specific regions later. Whatever gets me a Fallen Razatlan book, I’m on board :)


The general pulse of social media suggests that people really liked the Mwangi Expanse so I'd be surprised if they didn't extend that out into other locales. But, people clamoring for it probably helps too!


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keftiu wrote:
I would certainly welcome a Lost Omens: Rest Of The World Guide, laying the ground work for deep dives on specific regions later.

That's a pretty good idea. I imagine they wouldn't actually do this to give more creative freedom for developing future stuff or whatever, but I could totally see a book akin to the LOWG with each of the meta-region chapters replaced by ones on Arcadia, Azlant, Central/Southern Garund, Kelesh, Vudra, the rest of Casmaron, the Crown of the World, Tian Xia, and oceans/seas (besides the Arcadian/western Obari Ocean and Inner/Steaming/Fever seas). Maybe even throw in a chapter about Sarusan full of contradictory tall tales just for fun.

It would be a dream come true, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


Darth Game Master wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I would certainly welcome a Lost Omens: Rest Of The World Guide, laying the ground work for deep dives on specific regions later.

That's a pretty good idea. I imagine they wouldn't actually do this to give more creative freedom for developing future stuff or whatever, but I could totally see a book akin to the LOWG with each of the meta-region chapters replaced by ones on Arcadia, Azlant, Central/Southern Garund, Kelesh, Vudra, the rest of Casmaron, the Crown of the World, Tian Xia, and oceans/seas (besides the Arcadian/western Obari Ocean and Inner/Steaming/Fever seas). Maybe even throw in a chapter about Sarusan full of contradictory tall tales just for fun.

It would be a dream come true, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

I don't know this for a fact, so this may be wrong, but in the days of 3.5 yore I had heard that splat books were the real money making work horses. I wonder if that's true? If it was ever true, I wondering if Paizo has made a deliberate decision to try and shift their profit sources away from splat books and toward lore books.


Any bold guesses for Tian meta-regions?


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I've been vaguely dividing the regions up in five parts.

The Great Wall would include the Wall of Heaven, Shaguang, Hongal, Kaoling, Jinin, and Zi Ha. This region would be thematically geared towards wilderness adventures, lots of mountains, plains, and deserts, with the Kaoling and Jinin feud being the most pressing conflict. Maybe tonally a bit like the Saga Lands.

Northern Empire includes Chu Ye, Wanshou, Kamikobu (I reverted Amanandar back to its former state), Kwanlai, Tianjing, Shenmen, and Shokuro. These are nations that had the least connection to Imperial Lung Wa, and have been trying to make their own way after the empire's collapse. Thematic connection to the Broken Lands.

Southern Empire includes Goka, Lingshen, Quain, Po Li, Bachuan, Hwanggot, and Dtang Ma. These nations made up the heart of Imperial Lung Wa or had destinies much more impacted by that state, and were irrevocably changed by its influence. Lung Wa's legacy can be felt most strongly here, and people are likely to have thoughts about it. Shining Kingdoms we'll thematically equate this to.

Valashmai region has Nagajor, Xa Hoi, Minata, and Valashmai Jungle. Another nature-heavy region, with a lot of aquatic and arboreal biomes. This part of the continent is so huge it deserves a book giving each of these regions a bigger dive. We'll call it the High Seas book, or maybe Mwangi Expanse, because while there are fewer big named places for such a huge region, there's endless places to get lost in.

Land of the Dawn region would have Forest of Spirits, Minkai, Xidao, and the Tian Xia Darklands for our Ghibli inspired book. Hopefully lots of Zelda influence too. Lots of love for Japan in this book. Thematic equivalent to Impossible Lands, I guess, for being more isolated than other regions and kind of behaves like it lives in its own world.

As an aside, kind of agreeing with sentiments about Shokuro and Amanandar being jarring. Kind of hope both those successor states got Game of Thrones'd in the 1e-2e interim period.


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Opsylum wrote:

I've been vaguely dividing the regions up in five parts.

The Great Wall would include the Wall of Heaven, Shaguang, Hongal, Kaoling, Jinin, and Zi Ha. This region would be thematically geared towards wilderness adventures, lots of mountains, plains, and deserts, with the Kaoling and Jinin feud being the most pressing conflict. Maybe tonally a bit like the Saga Lands.

Northern Empire includes Chu Ye, Wanshou, Kamikobu (I reverted Amanandar back to its former state), Kwanlai, Tianjing, Shenmen, and Shokuro. These are nations that had the least connection to Imperial Lung Wa, and have been trying to make their own way after the empire's collapse. Thematic connection to the Broken Lands.

Southern Empire includes Goka, Lingshen, Quain, Po Li, Bachuan, Hwanggot, and Dtang Ma. These nations made up the heart of Imperial Lung Wa or had destinies much more impacted by that state, and were irrevocably changed by its influence. Lung Wa's legacy can be felt most strongly here, and people are likely to have thoughts about it. Shining Kingdoms we'll thematically equate this to.

Valashmai region has Nagajor, Xa Hoi, Minata, and Valashmai Jungle. Another nature-heavy region, with a lot of aquatic and arboreal biomes. This part of the continent is so huge it deserves a book giving each of these regions a bigger dive. We'll call it the High Seas book, or maybe Mwangi Expanse, because while there are fewer big named places for such a huge region, there's endless places to get lost in.

Land of the Dawn region would have Forest of Spirits, Minkai, Xidao, and the Tian Xia Darklands for our Ghibli inspired book. Hopefully lots of Zelda influence too. Lots of love for Japan in this book. Thematic equivalent to Impossible Lands, I guess, for being more isolated than other regions and kind of behaves like it lives in its own world.

As an aside, kind of agreeing with sentiments about Shokuro and Amanandar being jarring. Kind of hope both those successor states got Game of Thrones'd in the 1e-2e interim period.

…where do I sign up? Great Wall and Valashmai would be instant purchases from me. Not every nation hooks me - I just haven’t heard enough - but Shenmen, Wanshou, and Zi Ha are places I’m absolutely /fascinated/ by.

I have a Filipino player who’s desperate for any and all Minata stuff, too.


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keftiu wrote:
Any bold guesses for Tian meta-regions?

If I were splitting it up, going mostly based on geography and some aspects of politics/culture more than thematic similarities...

Valashmai Jungle and Minata seem big enough to be ones by themselves, though I could see Valashmai, Nagajor, Xa Hoi, and Dtang Ma working since they're on the same peninsula but those last 3 might just be their own thing. On that note I'd have Minkai and the Forest of Spirits be one. Hwanggot and Bachuan also share a peninsula and are rivals, but I'd add Tianjing and Shenmen to that one since those and Bachuan border the Sea of Ghosts.

The Wall of Heaven and Goka could be a single meta-region for the western coast. Lingshen, Po Li, and Quain as a trio since they're the most powerful Lung Wa successor states, and Shaguang and Hongal as a duo since they're homelands of the Tian-La people. Shokuro, Kaoling, and Jinin could be a Sea of Eels based meta-region. Wanshou, Kwanlai, Amanandar, and Chu Ye are the northernmost successor states so those work well.

As for Zi Ha and Xidao, the former would go with either Hongal/Shaguang or Sea of Eels, and the latter could be part of Tian Xia's analogue to the High Seas.

So overall:
1. Minata
2. Valashmai Jungle
3. Dtang Ma, Najagor, and Xa Hoi
4. Forest of Spirits and Minkai
5. Bachuan, Hwanggot, Shenmen, and Tianjing
6. Goka and Wall of Heaven (might split, since Absalom has its own in the LOWG and plays a similar role in the setting)
7. Lingshen, Po Li, and Quain
8. Hongal and Shaguang (and Zi Ha?)
9. Jinin, Kaoling, and Shokuro (and Zi Ha?)
10. Amanandar, Chu Ye, Kwanlai, and Wanshou
11. Xidao and the seas/nearby ocean

Sovereign Court

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keftiu wrote:
I dearly hope Amanandar has changed significantly since we saw it last.

What kind of changes would you like to see?

I rather like the premise of "Taldor, but actually much more like their ideal than the reality in the homeland".

Of course, then you have a relatively small ethnic slice of Taldans perched on a much larger original population, and having to come to some sort of accommodation. A century ago that was clearly just based on them being an army that lands in a region torn by civil war, but that was then and this is now, so how have they changed?

It needs a careful hand to not slip into full on white saviorism, or on the other hand to slip into white people elsewhere always bad. I think it's more interesting to compare it to the post-Roman Empire situation in Gaul; when the Germanic tribes took over they were also about a ~10% minority, a military elite on top of an original population of Romano/Gaul people. They needed the remains of Roman bureaucracy and church to actually govern though, and the eventual country and culture of France now owes much to both sides.


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I think the issue there is less "white people elsewhere always bad" and more the fact that the way it's described mirrors (relatively) modern colonialism, plus the "white savior" tropes you mention.

I'd have preferred if Amanandar simply hadn't existed, but if it must I'd rather it be something akin to the ancient "Greco-Bactrian" and "Indo-Greek" kingdoms, with cultures blending to some degree and the army/administration not being entirely composed of people of the conquerors' ethnicity. "This place in a non-Europe-inspired continent is entirely ruled by European-based people" is always going to be a bit uncomfortable, but they might as well at least draw on examples in history that are distinctly different from the most recent equivalents to that, instead of a fantasy version of colonial Hong Kong or something like that.

Sovereign Court

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The amount of canon about Amanandar is pretty slim, it wouldn't be so hard to bend it in a different direction.

For example: roughly a century ago this Taldan navy sailed in and jumped in the middle of a civil war and beat down various bandit warlords. Then they established a new military state with lots of Taldan symbolism. Even then, that doesn't mean the entire state was Taldan with a non-Taldan population, just that many of the visible faces were Taldan and official titles would have been Taldan.

But we're three or four generations along now, and plenty of the original Taldans got married to the local population (since soldiers typically don't travel with their spouses) and not all of their children went into the army either. Also, it takes more to run a country than an army, the administration also has to deal with civil issues and oversee large scale road and irritation concerns - stuff about which the local population knows a lot more, so most of the bureaucracy is going to be local in flavor.

So you end up with a state that still has memories of Taldor, and you have an army with Taldan strategies and structure, but many of the people in it don't have any such ancestry. And any western Taldan would say that actually it doesn't look very Taldan at all, since they didn't really catch any of the new fashions from the last century. (And also be a bit uncomfortable because it's probably much more effective than the decadent homeland.)


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll admit my dislike for Amanandar is only half to do with colonization and white savior narratives, as well as its governing style — the position of military commander is only available to Taldans, and it considers itself a "successor state," thus about the business of picking up where Lung Wa left off.

The other half is that Amanandar is smack dab in the middle of everyone's business. Like, it'd be hard to feature a successor state campaign without this big European kingdom out of nowhere which is at least a little bit hegemonistic. Just throws me out of my mystique. I don't mind having large Taldan communities or maybe even a small nation or city-state — I just...don't want it to literally be in the very center of the continent. It makes things needlessly weird.

Also, the location Amandar replaced kind of sounded like Tian Xia's version of the River Kingdoms, which sounds super rad. I feel like that would make a lot more sense for the general vibes of the location, being a sort of buffer state near the edges of Lung Wa's breadbasket where the empire's fall caused things to break apart a lot more than they have elsewhere, especially with neighbors like Shenmen and Wanshou.

Liberty's Edge

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I think we can have both. A city desperately trying to maintain some kind of order in the middle of endless chaos.

Sovereign Court

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Opsylum wrote:

I'll admit my dislike for Amanandar is only half to do with colonization and white savior narratives, as well as its governing style — the position of military commander is only available to Taldans, and it considers itself a "successor state," thus about the business of picking up where Lung Wa left off.

The other half is that Amanandar is smack dab in the middle of everyone's business. Like, it'd be hard to feature a successor state campaign without this big European kingdom out of nowhere which is at least a little bit hegemonistic. Just throws me out of my mystique. I don't mind having large Taldan communities or maybe even a small nation or city-state — I just...don't want it to literally be in the very center of the continent. It makes things needlessly weird.

Also, the location Amandar replaced kind of sounded like Tian Xia's version of the River Kingdoms, which sounds super rad. I feel like that would make a lot more sense for the general vibes of the location, being a sort of buffer state near the edges of Lung Wa's breadbasket where the empire's fall caused things to break apart a lot more than they have elsewhere, especially with neighbors like Shenmen and Wanshou.

Okay, those are solid reasons.

But I also see possibilities there. What if Amanandar has to choose between the best military commander, and the Taldan one? What if other countries are being unimpressed by their claims to be a successor state because they insist on their Taldan heritage too? Those can make for some interesting political choices, which the PCs might play a role in making.

Or to go further - Amanandar could also raise a serious challenge to "SHOULD there really be a new empire?". If you read between the lines, Lung Wa was not actually a very nice empire, strong-arming or outright conquering and exploiting many of its neighboring countries.

You could make the case that any empire (a state running multiple countries) is inherently imperialistic. That any empire can't really have the best interests and self-determination of all its (unwilling) constituent countries at heart.


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The Raven Black wrote:
I think we can have both. A city desperately trying to maintain some kind of order in the middle of endless chaos.

I'd be chill with New Oppara being a "river kingdom" style city-state in Kamikobu. That actually sounds pretty fun.

One of my players originally migrated from Tian Xia to the Inner Sea, so I spent a little time figuring out everything that was going on in that corner of the world. Haven't had the chance to explore any of this yet, but I'm excited to when it comes around. Don't know if it's of interest to anyone, but I'd planned to handle my own changes in this fashion, possibly with a mini-campaign of its own for my players.

spoilers for my own campaign:
I plan to let New Oppara's alluded hoarding of wealth fester for a while as it plans to expand eastward into monster-ruled territories (which would also give them more direct access to the trade routes of the Path of Aganhei, and in consequence propel Tian Xia and their homeland Avistan towards further integration). With the nation being engineered as a military monarchy with Taldans mostly at the top, coffers flowing into a militaristic buildup and constant borders skirmishes which have so far produced little results, Amanandar's southern cities are growing upset with the status quo. Compounding these problems are Shokuro's waning friendship with the state, as Sun Shogun Toriaka begins to observe the same corruption and complacency in Amanandar that had made him an exile in Minkai, and inspired him to make his own nation; this as well as the return of the bandit warlord Tsubokandu, who has been building up a new army behind Amanandar's border with Shenmen, and is using guerilla tactics to pester Amanandar's armies as they're trying to play cold war with Wanshou. Eventually, this will lead to Amanandar trying to invade Shenmen itself, but it is soundly repelled. Thus weakened, the nation faces a variety of threats of multiple fronts: from Shenmen, Wanshou, and more self-styling bandit kings rising up after Tsubokandu's example. When Amanandar can no longer contain these threats, city-states gradually begin to declare independence and look after their own interests, ignoring Amanandar's rulership in favor of a loose coalition of alliances. Kamikubo's previous state of general disorganization and anarchy is restored.

Observing Amanandar's decline, Toriaka, now an aged, successful ruler in his own right, but concerned about the potential for his fledgling nation to fall into complacency and decadence, decides his mission to empower the peoples of Shokuro is complete. Dissolving the title of the Sun Shogun and ceding governance to the Four Pillars, he retires to live out the rest of his days with the elves of Jinin, meditating on those he lost, and a life well-lived. Shokuro's future, at that point, is up for some heroes to decide. Especially with Lingshen eyeing their old breadbasket hungrily again.

Edit: Also, like those ideas, Ascalaphus. Sorry to rain on Amanandar so much. I'd be fine with it if they handled it well, and those prompts seem like interesting ways to take the story. There's a lot of different ways to take this. Hopefully we'll get some really creative Asian authors to make something awesome out of Amanandar. Lost Omens really can't get back to Tian Xia's corner of the world soon enough.

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