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My players feel PF2 magic items are lackluster other than striking weapons.
Magic armor doesn't seem to do anything as they get crit or hit easily by boss monsters.
Saving throw items are ok, but DCs are so high for enemies even with items they don't seem to do much.
They don't feel the bonus from buying skill improving items is satisfying.
They sort of like staves, but don't care much about wands.
PF1 they focused on high value items like stat increases, fortification armor, staves, wands, and items that provided a feeling of substantial improvement and power.
How do your players feel about PF2 magic items? And have you done anything to make them more interesting and attractive to your players?
Sounds more like wrong expectations than anything else. I would agree that items that have DC based effects are extremely lackluster and in need of house ruling but most of the other stuff seems right to me. If they do not like investing money in necessary numerical upgrades just use ABP
On one hand, it's been disappointing how few magic items there are that feel worth buying outside of the required stuff. On the other, it means you don't really need to budget since you're rarely buying anything other than those items.
The real joke has been that I've seen casters funneling their money to the martials to get items early because they feel they have so little worth buying.
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On one hand, it's been disappointing how few magic items there are that feel worth buying outside of the required stuff. On the other, it means you don't really need to budget since you're rarely buying anything other than those items.
The real joke has been that I've seen casters funneling their money to the martials to get items early because they feel they have so little worth buying.
In my experience, most magical items offer really good benefits. They're not the boring mandatory stuff that you don't need to think about, of course, and they're not always relevant, however, they do offer new options for your character.
In our session yesterday my player's magical items all came into play in one way or another, some were the normal ones you find on any list and some were the relics I gave them.
The silent hero was Boots of Elvenkind. My player's Dragon Barbarian failed critically on a command that sent his character away (3 strides + 1 Stride from haste) into darkness, which for a character without darkvision is a major wrench in the action economy. However, because of the boots, the character had enough movement to by pass the difficult terrain (by ignoring it as well) and finalize a demon that was ambushing them, it was a tipping point in the battle because if the demon had another round he would've surely killed a player (which could cascade into defeat). This but one example, but during the battle wands, staves and one of my PC's Holy Relic made a difference. If I were to put it in numbers, which seems like what OP's player are looking for, then the Boots of Elvenkind gave my player 24 damage and healed his allies for at least 20 damage and even dispelled a Frightened 2 on top of it all.
Non-mandatory Magical items in PF2e are like Class feats, they offer new options. The faster players realize it, the closer they are to system mastery.
Alchemical items, talismans and some magical consumables are definitely not worth it most of the time, but I found that having unusual items on you can really come in handy. My Monk, in Age of Ashes, used a Healer's Gloves quite often in battle, squeezing out a bit of healing in tough situations and also having one more character readily available to stabilize downed allies.
Non-mandatory Magical items in PF2e are like Class feats, they offer new options. The faster players realize it, the closer they are to system mastery.
That was my thought too. The point of most magical items (aside from the fundamental equipment runes or other things covered by ABP) is not to make a character better at what they already do. It is to allow them to do something else.
Usually at a lower benefit level than a character that is actually getting abilities to do it. The Healer's Gloves, for example, won't make a character better at healing than one that has a healing spell such as Heal or Lay on Hands. Nor will they be better than a character that has invested proficiency and skill feats into the Medicine skill.
So a rogue with a primal tradition spellcasting multiclass archetype might want the gloves so that they don't have as much pressure to spend one of their few spell slots on Heal, but a Cleric with healing font would probably do better to pass those gloves over to the party's Barbarian.
Non-mandatory Magical items in PF2e are like Class feats, they offer new options. The faster players realize it, the closer they are to system mastery.That was my thought too. The point of most magical items (aside from the fundamental equipment runes or other things covered by ABP) is not to make a character better at what they already do. It is to allow them to do something else.
Usually at a lower benefit level than a character that is actually getting abilities to do it. The Healer's Gloves, for example, won't make a character better at healing than one that has a healing spell such as Heal or Lay on Hands. Nor will they be better than a character that has invested proficiency and skill feats into the Medicine skill.
So a rogue with a primal tradition spellcasting multiclass archetype might want the gloves so that they don't have as much pressure to spend one of their few spell slots on Heal, but a Cleric with healing font would probably do better to pass those gloves over to the party's Barbarian.
On our last session I switched an item from the adventure path that the players would never use (A Flaying Knife), for something I thought they would be attracted to, A Crown of The Fire Eater. I noticed that my players wanted to use fireball and this ended up with the Barbarian, the main front line, receiving friendly fire quite often, so with the item the character not only gained a little bit of Fire Resistance, but also an special reaction in case Fire damage comes his way. My players were excited to see the item, despite the fact that one of my players never want to keep anything and want to sell the items to divide the money equally (which hurts more than help them in the long run, since you're selling an Item by half then dividing by four and often times you'll hoard the money, which gives neither utility nor stats).
I've noticed players don't think certain things are worth it just because it's not something that they can rely on all the time or have the character work around it. When you always analyze items like that, then everything non-mandatory will feel lackluster. On the other hand, when you look for items viewing them as new tools for your character or for extra benefits in a pinch, then suddenly lots of them seem much more attractive.
It also doesn't hurt if your players don't have to worry about the mandatory stuff because they're playing with APB like mine are, which is why I love this alternative set of rules. Your PCS don't worry nearly as much about buying an interesting magical item if they don't have in their minds that they need to save to get that next mandatory item as soon as possible.
Talking about APB, how are your players dealing with:
- Crafting ( would thy consider it a skill worth investing into, as well as skill feats, or given the fact mandatory stuff is given for free they don't consider this a good investmnent? )
They don't have any crafting-focused character. The closest we have is our druid with Herbalist from Free Archetype and he has an incentive to craft some alchemical items.
- Booty ( is the one given through AP too much? How you, as the DM, dealt with items which no longer exist because of ABP? For example, finding a striking +1 weapon while lvl 12 )
I am cutting very little on the money and item department. However, I straight up remove without any compensation the +X items the game offer. So far, the balance hasn't been upset, even though I even gave them some relic items to use. I almost killed them last night in our session when I threw an extreme encounter at them (it was of their own making). Overall, I think that once you can't spend money buying straight power, things are much less restrictive on the treasure side. The ABP in PF2e is very clear on the fact that you can ignore the standard loot table as much as you want, which for me means that I mostly give out the loot as it is in our current adventure path, with just some occasional shaving off, which is very different from PF1e, in which the ABP rules required only 50% of treasure.
- Downtime activities ( something definitely linked to the booty. Do they need to expend time doing their downtime activities or the income is already that good they don't need it? )
Overall, since we're doing mainly adventure paths, there has been only one stance of lengthy downtime that gave them the opportunity to gain some money. Our table as a whole never has been too keen on downtime since our PF1e days, so I don't think the existence of ABP changed that much for us.
My players like magic items. They have enjoyed them through every edition of D&D and in PF1 except D&D 5E and PF2 other than striking weapons. They want magic items to have a dramatic impact on their character and help make their character feel unique and powerful as they did in previous editions.
So far only striking weapons give that feeling. Magic armor feels "meh" because even when they obtain magic armor, they don't feel like they're getting hit or critical hit any less given the high attack rolls of enemies.
I think the skill enhancers are very nice and tend to look for them. But some of my players don't even care about that.
The aren't taking enough advantage of consumables because they tend to take away from using their primary abilities. They like to roll to hit and do as much damage as possible for their martials, while their casters are generally there to support and enable the martials mostly using innate casting abilities.
I have no interest in doing ABP as it will further lessen the reliance on magic items and give the players nothing to look forward to. My players look forward to magic items. They don't see them as something undesirable. They want them to provide a substantial advantage in battle.
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Well, I really don't know what your players want, because so far, PF2e has been doing a good job of creating magical items that are actually interesting and can do magical stuff, rather than just MMORPG items that make your character keep doing what it's already doing... Which is, in my opinion, the very opposite of what a "build defining item" is. Even in MMORPGs boring items that just give X or Y bonuses, even if its a lot, often aren't the most popular ones because they lack varied effects (however, most of the time the biggest numbers also go with the best effects).
Here's a list of items that any reasonable player would want to have at their disposal:
Coin of Comfort, which is the same as buying a Barbarian feat for 45GP: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1271
Horn of Fog, tactical advantage for non-specialized, outright cheap tactic with Martial characters with Blind-Fight (really build defining): https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=258
Jar of Shifting Sands, Sun Tzu advises you to know the terrain, what about controlling it? https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1064
Brooch of Shielding, great to buy once you're above its level it, because I've noticed that Paizo often likes Magic Missile on its NPCs: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=418
The aforementioned Healer's Gloves, for frontliners to help each other in a pinch and since it only costs one action, it fits perfectly in the action economy: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=444
Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind, invisibility and freedom of movement: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=413
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=424
Quick-Runner's shirt, grab this bad boy on a heavy armor character or a small PC and they can engage in fights when they most need it as well as catching up to faster enemies: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1303
And there's a lot more. Things like the Aeon Stones slotted into a wayfinder that offer good effects (Tourmaline Sphere, Dusty Rose Prism), Ring of the Ram, Ring of energy resistance, Fleshgem (Earthspeaker), Ring of Wizardry, Crown of the Fire Eater, all the Spellhearts are interesting from the get go and only get better with upgrades. All of the above are below level 10 items.
One thing I like as well are the Relics, which can offer all sorts of magical effects and they can be either chosen by the GM on their level up or the PC can make a choice depending on what story the GM wants to tell. It lets the PC definitely craft a unique and personalized weapon, it can even mirror their character's journey.
I've complained a lot about interesting magical items during the playtest way back then, and I think that Paizo did a good job making so that even the boring +X to skill from before gained interesting activated effects that made them more interesting.
Well, I really don't know what your players want, because so far, PF2e has been doing a good job of creating magical items that are actually interesting and can do magical stuff, rather than just MMORPG items that make your character keep doing what it's already doing... Which is, in my opinion, the very opposite of what a "build defining item" is. Even in MMORPGs boring items that just give X or Y bonuses, even if its a lot, often aren't the most popular ones because they lack varied effects (however, most of the time the biggest numbers also go with the best effects).
Here's a list of items that any reasonable player would want to have at their disposal:
Coin of Comfort, which is the same as buying a Barbarian feat for 45GP: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1271
Horn of Fog, tactical advantage for non-specialized, outright cheap tactic with Martial characters with Blind-Fight (really build defining): https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=258
Jar of Shifting Sands, Sun Tzu advises you to know the terrain, what about controlling it? https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1064
Brooch of Shielding, great to buy once you're above its level it, because I've noticed that Paizo often likes Magic Missile on its NPCs: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=418
The aforementioned Healer's Gloves, for frontliners to help each other in a pinch and since it only costs one action, it fits perfectly in the action economy: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=444
Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind, invisibility and freedom of movement: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=413
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=424Quick-Runner's shirt, grab this bad boy on a heavy armor character or a small PC and they can engage in fights when they most need it as well as catching up to faster enemies: https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1303
And there's a lot more. Things like the Aeon Stones slotted into a wayfinder that offer good effects (Tourmaline Sphere, Dusty Rose Prism), Ring of the...
Some of those items they like. That's another reason I don't get why they seem to be complaining. There are some quality items in PF2. But they don't look deep enough or understand how beneficial they are. It's starting to get annoying with the constant comparisons between PF1 and FP2. If they don't get used to it soon, I'm going to stop running the game as it's tiresome.
There are plenty of good magic items. There is no returning to the stat increasing items they miss in PF1 or the other far overpowered items. That doesn't mean there aren't quite a few quality magic items in PF2 that provide a good benefit.
Boots of Bounding
Armbands of Athleticism
Weapon Property Runes
They aren't bothering to look into how the mechanics work. It's getting annoying.
Looking at PF1e's item list, everything seemed really frustrating, since the stuff that interested me were really high level and I would probably have to sacrifice some mandatory items to buy them.
I find it understandable that players that always played by buying +X items and never really thought about what they were doing and why would feel conditional bonuses and utility items wouldn't be good enough, specially when these items don't offer ability status increases, which offered bonuses across the board.
A solution to this is really hard, because it largely falls upon the players' shoulders to understand the new system and realize why +X bonuses aren't really bonuses at all. However, the obvious solution would be changing system as a whole if it's something everyone at the table aren't enjoying, it's either that or trying to find alternative rules that managed to emulate the item-buying experience they want.
To me, the least troublesome change would be each one of them one or two relics so that they could spend their money on effects they want by buying relic seeds (something that's supposed to be used narratively, I can't see why it can't be used as a commodity).
I think the skill enhancers are very nice and tend to look for them. But some of my players don't even care about that.
The aren't taking enough advantage of consumables because they tend to take away from using their primary abilities. They like to roll to hit and do as much damage as possible for their martials, while their casters are generally there to support and enable the martials mostly using innate casting abilities.
I think this is telling. It sounds like a group of players who want to ignore plot and character development, and don't like skill challenges. They just want to play a character with large thews and bash things.
Which isn't a wrong way to approach a role-playing game. But it does cause problems when the game isn't designed for that style of player. PF2 can support this style, but some of the mechanics (such as magical items) don't do so well at it.
I have no interest in doing ABP as it will further lessen the reliance on magic items and give the players nothing to look forward to.
The purpose of ABP is to take the focus of magical items away from increasing power. The power increase happens automatically and magical items are solely for flavor, niche effects, and alternative options in unexpected situations.
My players look forward to magic items. They don't see them as something undesirable. They want them to provide a substantial advantage in battle.
Sounds like a style of player that isn't supported well by the game system. The players want to run the adventures with as little risk as possible. Grind up a bunch of money through easy quests, then spend that money on super powerful equipment that can make the more challenging adventures easy. Then repeat - grind up more money on those now-easy challenge adventures and buy even better equipment.
I think that in order to get that style of play, you will have to try out homebrew and houserules.
Either that or tone down the difficulty of the adventures so that the players don't feel as much risk. But good luck convincing them that that is what they actually want.
And actually, Starfinder has much more of an equipment-based power design. The complaint in that system is that you do have to keep buying ever increasing equipment in order for your character to stay relevant in combat.
And actually, Starfinder has much more of an equipment-based power design. The complaint in that system is that you do have to keep buying ever increasing equipment in order for your character to stay relevant in combat.
Yeah, now that you brought it up, Starfinder is definitely the system that requires players to keep buying their equipment over and over... And it's by far the worst aspect of that system and one of the main reasons why I didn't make a bigger effort to get my group to play that system.
The setting is really interesting, there's a lot of cool ideas, but there are so many major flaws in that system, in my opinion, that just straight up put me off. The gear system, economy, class-agnostic archetypes and lack of meaningful class archetypes are major roadblocks for me.
However, that item-buying loop for power increase sounds straight up what Deriven's players want. In that system they definitely will be looking forward to that next upgrade.
Horn of Fog, tactical advantage for non-specialized, outright cheap tactic with Martial characters with Blind-Fight (really build defining): https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=258
Pretty good to just deny ranged attacks.
Insanely strong for Storm Druids or a Sylph who can also just use it indiscriminately as a semi permanent defensive buff.
Horn of Fog, tactical advantage for non-specialized, outright cheap tactic with Martial characters with Blind-Fight (really build defining): https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=258
Pretty good to just deny ranged attacks.
Insanely strong for Storm Druids or a Sylph who can also just use it indiscriminately as a semi permanent defensive buff.
Exactly. We have a storm druid in our party and a Barbarian (beastkin) with Scent, when my players decided to sell the Horn of Fog they were given I screamed inside. They missed a huge tactical opportunity by using that.
However, that item-buying loop for power increase sounds straight up what Deriven's players want. In that system they definitely will be looking forward to that next upgrade.
Reflavor the high-tech setting into a more steampunk theme, remove the starship rules (another of the weak points of the game anyway), and reflavor the 'computers' skill and it wouldn't be too far different from a Pathfinder setting now that firearms and vehicles have been added to PF2.
However, that item-buying loop for power increase sounds straight up what Deriven's players want. In that system they definitely will be looking forward to that next upgrade.Reflavor the high-tech setting into a more steampunk theme, remove the starship rules (another of the weak points of the game anyway), and reflavor the 'computers' skill and it wouldn't be too far different from a Pathfinder setting now that firearms and vehicles have been added to PF2.
That's true. But the main thing that I think would make Starfinder one hundred times more attractive to me was if it had the PF2e three action economy.
Honestly, if they ever release a "Starfinder Unchained" borrowing a lot of PF2e core mechanics, I'll be all over it for sure. Maybe finally with three actions the Envoys actually become an interesting class to play with (assuming that they don't gimp the class on purpose by making its Improvs cost two actions).
Well, it seems it's simply that this 2e is not for them.
It's not about the items, because it's clear that the comparisons between 1e and 2e are powercreep related.
Demanding more powerful items ( or useful. it's the same, given the fact everything from magic to magic items has been drastically toned down in this 2e ) means indirectly not accepting the game system as a whole.
It's similar, though also different, to gamers who find themselves addicted to a specific game or gameplay ( progression, grind, farm, powercreep, snowball effect, etc... ) and, talking about my experience here, it's hard to convince them to give a shot to something different, because they'd try to replicate what they have been used to for years.
At least you tried to give them a fair alternative.
Ps: Since it's powercreep what they are looking for, did you also try with them the FA variant rules? Getting more feats would result into powercreep, but also would give them the possibility to create a more versatile character with different stuff to use.
I think it's a fair trade between powercreep and CRB rules.
I gave the chance to stop playing. They say they still want to play.
I'm not changing magic items substantially. I think they do provide some fairly good bonuses.
The only one I understand and agree with is magic armor is pretty "meh." The hit rolls are set so high that even with magic armor, you don't feel much of a difference. But that is by design.
But skill enhancers or items that provide magic abilities, some of them are very good. Striking weapons and property runes are good too.
I had a DEX Monk and often my high armor felt useless when the AoA designers decided to stack a bunch of severe encounters on long stretches of the adventure (often being one once per day).
However, running Menace Under Otari, Trouble In Otari and The Slithering for my players, there were only a handful of encounters in which their AC was pretty much meaningless, most of those were against complex hazards. More often than not their AC was relevant because in those AP's the difficulty is much more finely tuned, even with the harder encounters (leaning less on single creatures and more on small varied groups).
It's hard for us players to come to terms with the fact that in this edition the monsters are supposed to actually hit often and hard in order to feel challenging. In PF1e things were more unwieldy and being hit a lot meant that you weren't doing things right on early levels (or it was the norm at high levels), if the players come from D&D5e then it's an entirely new set of expectations (Huge HP pools, low damage and lots of misses).
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the main thing that I think would make Starfinder one hundred times more attractive to me was if it had the PF2e three action economy.
I don't have a problem with Starfinder's asymmetric 3-action economy. The bigger problem that I have with the game's mechanics is the skill system. Having the ability to only partially buy into the +1/level is a trap, and having some classes (cough Operative cough) having huge bonuses to certain (or all) skills which throws off the ability to set DCs for the party as a whole.
Honestly, if they ever release a "Starfinder Unchained" borrowing a lot of PF2e core mechanics, I'll be all over it for sure.
Same.
the main thing that I think would make Starfinder one hundred times more attractive to me was if it had the PF2e three action economy.I don't have a problem with Starfinder's asymmetric 3-action economy. The bigger problem that I have with the game's mechanics is the skill system. Having the ability to only partially buy into the +1/level is a trap, and having some classes (cough Operative cough) having huge bonuses to certain (or all) skills which throws off the ability to set DCs for the party as a whole.
I don't have a problem with the action economy per se, but PF2e's three action economy would probably enhance every single class in that game, specially Envoys.
I completely forgot about the skill system. That was really rough, specially because of the Operatives and the fact that they were probably the best class in the game by far, not even Soldiers were that good (they got ahead in combat, which was their thing, while Operatives dominated everywhere else and Envoys just got the short end of the stick).
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For my Age of Ashes group I've done ABP and turned specific magic items into runes that take 2 slots up. That seems to be going well.
I've also been toying with the using Class DC for any Invested items' abilities.
As for other items - my players actually like wands once they can afford heightened spells that last long enough or affect enough of them.
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Lots of items with activated abilities would be cool and useful if the DCs scaled, alss waste of money.
What else to buy
- Healer’s Gloves
- +damage property runes (Frost and Brilliant are my preferred choices)
- Extending and Speed property runes
- Abyssium weapons
- Wand of Longstrider (2nd)
- Wand of Ant Haul (1st)
- Wand of See Invisibility (5th)
- Fear Gem (100 of them can be used with dagger cheese to effectively give a permanent upgrade to intimidating strike)
- Orchestral Brooch (good for bards)
- Ebon Fulcrum Lens (but who is gonna let you buy that anyway…)
- White Spindle and Black Pearl aeon stone
- Belt of Good Health
- (Greater) Boots of Bounding
- Skill items for combat skills such as Intimidation, Medicine and Athletics
- +X armour runes are useful for lowering crit rates
- Fortification and Antimagic runes
- Perception item for better init
- Wand of Teeming Ghosts
Lots of useful combat items
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I don't think it's all just hardcore powergaming and stubbornness. Some items really are underwhelming. Often when I see a custom magic item in an AP that would have been neat, there are issues such as:
- It needs a free hand for an occasionally relevant effect
- It has a DC that won't scale, so it's quickly obsolete.
- It does an amount of damage that doesn't really scale, so becomes obsolete.
- It's hard to fit into peoples' build
- It just provides a passive bonus that while useful, is just there. You fill it in on your sheet, calculate the numbers, and never really actually interact with it again.
I think items are more successful if they hook into rules for growing with the characters. Spells from staves/wands/scrolls get the caster's DC. Weapons can have their runes improved.
For my Age of Ashes group I've done ABP and turned specific magic items into runes that take 2 slots up. That seems to be going well.
I've also been toying with the using Class DC for any Invested items' abilities.
As for other items - my players actually like wands once they can afford heightened spells that last long enough or affect enough of them.
I like class DC for items. Makes a magic item a part of your build as opposed to a quasi gold generating consumable bc of static DCs leading to planned obsolescence.
One thing I've done lately is being a lot more loosey-goosey with magic item levels relative to PC level, especially when it comes to consumables. For instance, giving the players a high-level scroll of a spell they can't cast yet can be a lot of fun and make players more excited about picking that spell later.
However, I think this approach works less well if you run a game with easy access to buying and selling magic items. I prefer running games where buying and selling (especially very valuable items) can be a challenge.
Edit: I also do Class/Spell DC for all magic items.
