Who cares if they're skill starved, you only need 8 skills


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I'm suggesting that the following skills are NEEDED in a party of PCs, but nothing more than this list is required for long-term success in a campaign:

Diplomacy
6 Knowledge skills (the Monster Lore ones)
Perception

What's interesting to me is that martial PCs with Full BAB and some other classes are often derided as being "skill starved." If your GM allows Traits, nearly no skill is out of reach as a Class skill. If the above skills are truly all that's necessary, then every character needs to average to 2 ranks/level in a 4 person party.

The movement skills and Acrobatics seem good on paper but are rarely used in gameplay, unless you've chosen a specific type of character that likely has many skill ranks/level. Craft, Profession or Perform, for the purposes of making a living can all be replaced by Diplomacy (if using the Downtime rules) or Craft can be used untrained. Stealth can be managed in rounds at first, then in minutes per casting of spells from level 1.

So if you had a party of 4, let's say Paladins. If their Int is at least 10, they get 8 skill ranks. That's enough for these four PCs to have the above 8 skills covered through Traits as well as normal Class skills. They won't be spectacular at the Knowledge checks, but they'll be able to attempt them.

I'm making this thread b/c I don't understand why people still concern themselves with how many skills a PC does or doesn't get, and what skills those are.


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Pfft. 8 skills? Look at Mr Big Brain over here.

You don't need Diplomacy because a failed Diplomacy check will just lead to more combat. So if you min-max enough then you can simply kill everyone instead of talking to them.

And why would you need Monster Lore? Things die of you kill them hard enough. And if they don't die then you can throw them in a Bag of Holding. Nah, what you need is more combat optimization.

And sure, Perception sounds nice on paper. But in real play you can simply get one of those "always act in surprise round" abilities to combat even harder.

There is only one skill you need and that is Appraise. How else will you know how valuable all the stuff you find is?

/s


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Just have one of your party have the familiar from their divination VMC take the sage/figment and swap in the +8 appraise skill bump and receive an evaluator's lens spell when you need it. Don't waste any permanent resources on a skill. That may be overkill though, it looks like we're expecting to roll 15s on our knowledge checks, so we don't need to get above +15 on appraise.


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Sounds like someone is using the game mechanics almost exclusively for combat simulations, rather than a complex and dynamic engine that does a lot more than just "RAWR FIGHTER SMASH, CLERIC HEAL, WIZARD CAST, ROGUE FIND!"

I just ran a session last night, and I can tell you that a lot more than those eight skills were used. Linguistics came up a few times. Acrobatics was used about a half dozen times. We had two Heal checks. Numerous Spellcraft rolls. Disable device three times. Several Survival checks (to track). A handful of Sense Motives. And a couple Perform checks. And all of those where handled WITHIN a dungeon level, and at relatively decent DCs (highest was around a 35, but we have some Mythic stuff going on, so ...).

Just my opinion though. I'm not telling you how to run your game.


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I use Downtime rules for 3 campaigns. At the start of each campaign, knowing I'm going to be using those rules, I grant every PC an extra rank in a Craft, Profession or Perform skill; doesn't make it a Class skill, but they can assign 1 free bonus rank to any one of those types.

For last couple levels, all four PCs across 2 campaigns have only used Diplomacy to generate resources as they've stopped putting ranks into their Crafts and Professions.

They do that b/c Diplomacy also changes attitudes and gathers info. They can do 3 things with one skill instead of having different, mono-use skills. They also don't make any of their own gear, except for Magic Items (I guess Spellcraft is "necessary" for those 2 campaigns).

I've put them in traps without Disable Device; they've used spells as workarounds. In non-combat scenes, my players LITERALLY pick up their dice and ask "so, should we roll initiative now?" I'm sorry, and I agree w/Deathless that there should be more than combat, but I can't MAKE my players talk to intelligent creatures, or climb mountains, or sail boats or craft items or whatever.

My players, in at least 2 of my 3 campaigns, want to show up to a session, murder, loot, and level. Period. That's it. The only skills NECESSARY for this process are the ones above.


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It sounds like you, and your friends, are playing a very different style of game than what goes on at my table. That's fine. The rules allow for all kinds of different play styles.

You are correct that those skills are all that is required for the long term success of YOUR campaigns. My players would find it a great deal harder to get by on those skills alone.


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Not having Spellcraft is such suffering that I might just be willing to eat 1 for the team and kill off my character so I can bring Spellcraft.


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Just for clarification, if you haven't seen his posts on other threads, Mark is a real role-player and a d*mn fine GM from all I've read. He seems to suffer from a not fantastic group of players that, for whatever reasons, he continues to play with. (No judgements man. Things can be complicated, and friends aren't always great game mates.)

I too would need more skills in most games I play; I'm a bit of a skill ho. If we're just talking raw mechanics though, then the only one's I'd worry about would be those skills that you can only use if trained, that are needed to escape or combat certain monster abilities. All the rest, with enough clever role play and application of abilities and powers, I'm okay to see those untrained. It could encourage more uses of aid another.

Not to derail, but in a house rules discussion, I'd even be willing to debate whether disable device, handle animal, sleight of hand, and use magic device should have the no untrained limit. I can see making the DC higher without training, but allowing for straight Dex, Cha, (or maybe Int) checks doesn't seem unrealistic to me.

At that point, purely within the perspective of this thread, the only essential skills become the aforementioned knowledges, linguistics, profession, and spellcraft. With the exception of the last one maybe, the need for those skills is all highly campaign/setting specific.

What I'm curious about, is which six knowledges are you referring to? Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Religion I know. But which is the 6th? Engineering perhaps for constructs? Local for various bandits/human/goblinoids? History for something rare/pre-historic? That would get you to 8 knowledge skills needed.

Liberty's Edge

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One of the problems I see with Mark's comment is that the characters are meant to work constantly as a symbiotic organism.
What happens if one or more of the guys without perception are attacked by someone with stealth?
Attack, move behind cover enter stealth.
In a battle between a character with stealth as a class skill and 1 rank in stealth and a guy without rank in stealth, assuming that both don't have any modifiers for Dexterity (stealth) and wisdom (perception), the guy using stealth will be undetected 70% of the time. He will lose some round maneuvering if he wants to be able to attack and then able to enter stealth every time, but the guy without perception will be in a way worse position.
If the guy with stealth has more ranks and a bit of dexterity it becomes way worse.

I have never made a character that hasn't Perception maximized.

- * - * -

"All players use diplomacy to earn money."
So essentially they are all playing mediators or middlemen in the same city?
It is large enough for it to work with so many guys doing it?
In a large trading city, it can work, in a frontier town, it would be way less useful.

- * -

Sorry, but to me, it sounds like lazy and unimaginative gaming.


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I think Mark is having one of his bitter moments after another frustrating session with his hack-&-slash players.

Either that, or he's trolling, but Hoover doesn't troll, any more than a troll will hoover.


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Ah reductionist 'role-playing'... each to their own I suppose.


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Wonderstell made me laugh ^_^

Assuming MarkHoover330 isn't trolling ... the premise of your argument is that skills are either mandatory or they're not. If they're not then ditch them, they're not worth worrying about. This is a flase premise.

NO skill is "NEEDED" - You could get through an AP perfectly fine without a single knowledge check. Alternatively, the Swim skill is probably a good idea if you're playing Skulls and Shackles (and to a lesser extent Profession:Sailor). All skills have value in the right circumstances, for example I almost always give my characters 3 ranks in ACROBATICS for the AC boost in emergencies, even if I never roll Acrobatics. It's saved more than one character from perma-death.

So here are some skills that I think are "NEEDED" ... by certain characters:

Spoiler:
Escape Artist is fairly useless for Full-BAB beatsticks, but it's a pretty good idea for your Half-BAB casters. Contrary to popular belief, 4 Nat-20's in a row are a statistical certainty if you have a large enough sample size, and big beasties with Grab are a pain in the butt-cheeks.

Fly. Don't need much, but enough to pass those hover checks is a good idea. Only applicable if you have a fly-speed.

Ride. You'll know if you need it.

Sense Motive means you know you're working for the good guy. I don't really understand how you could include Diplomacy in your list of skills "NEEDED" without including Sense Motive. They're 2 sides of the same coin. If you're just using Diplomacy to earn money then may I suggest that "becoming an adventurer" is a much more lucrative career choice, so forget Diplomacy and go knock some heads.

Spellcraft. Are you an Arcane prepared caster? Like having spells? Well have I got the skill for you!

Swim. Campaign specifc, you'll know if you need it.

I'm sure people can come up with reasons that other skills are worth more, or that some skills aren't necessary, but the point is that each skill has value. You may value some more or less, but it's not a binary system where they're either mandatory or they're useless.


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MrCharisma wrote:


Spellcraft. Are you an Arcane prepared caster? Like having spells? Well have I got the skill for you!

It's much worse than that.

"Your character can't move anymore or do anything."
"What happened?"
"You don't have spellcraft so you can't identify the spell."
"Oh...how do I fix it?"
"You don't know."
"I hope it wears off soon."
"Me too buddy. Me too."

Also, identifying magic items.

Scarab Sages

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As others have said there are huge gaps between must have, need this and want this skills especially when dealing with the different classes.

Must have skills are things you literally can't function without although what they are varies between classes/players. For example I wouldn't consider playing a spellcaster without spellcraft to me its a must have skill for them. However if I were playing a fighter its generally of little use.

Need this sklils are things you feel you need to get a character concept to work knowledge arcana is an example for my spellcasters. Its not must have as there are several concepts espeically with sorcerers or hybrid classes where knowlege of arcane theory is not a must have but its generally a need this because it fits with the whole you are a magic user you know about magical things. Particularly for wizards. Perception is another need this very useful in game but not a must have for a caster epsecially a low level one without much adventuring experience. I don't even normally take diplomacy and have played in groups that have no one who can use it.

Then however we get to the want this which is where I often start feeling skill starved lets look at what my arcanist character who enjoys crafting magic items might want but not need. Starting with JUST craft we get . . .

alchemy (potions), armor (magic items), books (Personal library), bows (Magic Weapons), calligraphy (Personal interest from keeping a journal), carpentry (Wondrous items), clothing (Magic boots, gloves and other items), gemcutting (magic items), glass (Magic Items), jewelry (Amulets, rings and other magic items), paintings (Personal interest to draw the things she's seen in her journals), pottery (Clay golem and other magic items), sculptures (Non-Clay Golems), shoes (Boots of . . .wait do I use this or clothing?), stonemasonry (Stone golem and various wondrous items, weapons (an obvious one).

Then we have perform sing (she enjoys doing this), profession cook (to prepare meals when travelling), acrobatics (to not slip and fall on her face in wilderness areas as often), fly (overland flight), all knowledges (she likes learning), swim (I personally can't see not taking this anywhere near water though I know a lot of medival types couldn't), use magic device. The list goes on and on and I just don't have the skills to take them all especially not at useful levels. Do I need them? No but I want them even my "simple fighter" types have a lot of useful skills to take perception, survival, acrobatics, appraise, diplomacy, escape artist, handle animal (possibly), heal (can't trust those castery types to do a proper job), intimidate, kwnowledge skills (type depending on class e.g. rangers tend to grab nature while others might want dungeoneering), perception, profession (soldier), ride, sense motive (need to know if someone's lying to you), stealth, survival (again depending on theme).

Again you don't HAVE to have them for an adventuring group but there are no where near enough skills in my opinion to make a proper PERSON especially since they're intended to cover all the things you might want to do e.g. having a cleric who relaxes by painting so you either wind up with two few skill points to cover the things you think a concept would have to at least some degree (look at all the things Conan the barbarian knew and could do) or you start house ruling to allow characters to do things outside the rules for non combat options e..g "no you don't need craft paint you can do it".

A fighter especially with point buy generally doesn't have a high int so they're likely to have 2 skill points or if stat dumping maybe 1 and a class list of Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Lets remove craft and profession which are multi option choices. That's 4 to 8 levels just to put 1 point in each of their CLASS skills much less extras like perception which isn't on the fighter list weirdly or a personal hobby.

So for me the number of skill points is far too few because they simply don't allow you to make a proper character easily. Even the high skill classes will generally wind up focusing on only a few skills in the end depending on how spread out they want their options to be.


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In my case, I like being able to contribute to most possible things in character.
As such,
-I would like to have at least 1 ideally 2 social skills
-I would like perception
-I would like 1 or 2 knowledge skills
-Stealth is generally speaking good too.
-Fly in mid to high level campaigns.

Depending on point buy, a human can pretty easily have 7ish skill points even if not playing a skill monkey specifically. Int 14 is relatively cheap (especially in 20+ point buys), and I do not feel breaking character when I make "too optimal" combat decisions.


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Scavion wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:


Spellcraft. Are you an Arcane prepared caster? Like having spells? Well have I got the skill for you!

It's much worse than that.

"Your character can't move anymore or do anything."
"What happened?"
"You don't have spellcraft so you can't identify the spell."
"Oh...how do I fix it?"
"You don't know."
"I hope it wears off soon."
"Me too buddy. Me too."

Also, identifying magic items.

not to mention that it's very important if you plan on crafting magical items. i mean you CAN take ranks in craft(armor) and craft (bows) and crat (weapons) after getting your craft magical arms and armor feat...or you can just rank up spellcraft..

side note, sepia snake victim's can do jack about it after failing the save. their party on the other hand can try and get them out.

Scarab Sages

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zza ni wrote:
Scavion wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:


Spellcraft. Are you an Arcane prepared caster? Like having spells? Well have I got the skill for you!

It's much worse than that.

"Your character can't move anymore or do anything."
"What happened?"
"You don't have spellcraft so you can't identify the spell."
"Oh...how do I fix it?"
"You don't know."
"I hope it wears off soon."
"Me too buddy. Me too."

Also, identifying magic items.

not to mention that it's very important if you plan on crafting magical items. i mean you CAN take ranks in craft(armor) and craft (bows) and crat (weapons) after getting your craft magical arms and armor feat...or you can just rank up spellcraft..

side note, sepia snake victim's can do jack about it after failing the save. their party on the other hand can try and get them out.

That's GM dependant the I usually play with only allows spellcraft if your enchanting an existing item you still need either the item or to know how to craft it yourself. You can't use spellcraft to make a suit of armour but you can use it to enchant it.


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im only talking about making the magical item part, you still need a masterwork weapon\armor to make one, but spellcraft is used to make the rest (assuming that the gloves of a magical gloves included in their cost to make etc)

but when enchanting the items, armors\weapons and shields can all be enchanted ether with the right craft skill or spellcraft, that is not gm depended (unless house ruled against) it's raw. so it kinda saves skill points if you decide to gear up all your party.


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No I'm not trolling. Knowledge: Local is the 6th knowledge skill my players insist on, for those times where I use humanoids with alternate race traits or they are reskinned to make them more powerful. Also, Diego is helping to prove my point; he's never built a PC that doesn't have Perception optimized.

I started this thread for 2 reasons: 1. b/c everyone complains that martials are skill starved when, I'd posit, if you've got 2 skill ranks/level, regardless of your original Class skills, with Traits that means you can be getting 2 of the 8 necessary skills every level and 2. b/c I agree with Diego again, I often see lazy, unimaginative gameplay from my players.

Yes, I'm bitter about their style of play but that doesn't change the outcomes. In one of my games for example, the PCs are based in a large merchant city while exploring a megadungeon. They can all use Diplomacy to generate resources because I am using the Downtime rules; this is justified by them all owning/running businesses and thus acting like merchants, not much of a stretch in a merchant city.

One PC started off with a rank in Craft: Armor; he hasn't crafted a single wooden shield in 7 levels. Another PC has 1 rank in Craft: Bows and she DID make herself a longbow, but that ended by 3rd level when she realized that with a higher Cha than Int and ranks in Diplomacy she didn't NEED to use Craft as her "business" skill.

In the megadungeon, while the u-rogue DOES use Stealth and Disable Device often, circumventing traps is the one thing they can get creative as a group on. Other than that... they've avoided water like the plague and it's a land-locked game so far, so no Swim checks; no one picks pockets; the only creature using UMD is a familiar; Craft and Profession aren't useful in the dungeon; there aren't any clockworks or siege equipment so no Knowledge: Engineering.

And finally, as I've mentioned in other threads, combat is the default solution to any conflict for all the players across 3 different campaigns. Combat doesn't REQUIRE Acrobatics or Stealth or other skills, but across all 3 groups they take Monster Lore checks seriously, have at least 2 or more party members maxing out Perception and there's always 1 party "face" with Diplomacy for the rare exception where combat might not be called for.

Yes, these are the skills necessary for MY games, but they are arguably also necessary for any combat-focused group of players.


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Certain classes and archetypes have requirement of various other skills… for example anyone with an animal companion still has to roll Handle Animal to give commands if their companion has less than 3 INT, which given the fact that ALL animal choices start with no more than 2… that is a guarantee until at least level 4 when they get their first ability score increase and can allocate it to INT…
Cavaliers have a heavy reliance on not just Handle Animal, but Ride too. A Cavalier without ride may as well just abandon their mount and become a glorified fighter or a Paladin without a deity… several of their class abilities are directly linked to using their mount.
Are you a Brawler with the Battle Dancer archetype? Better build up those ranks in Acrobatics and maybe Perform(Dance) then… you will need that Acrobatics quite a bit unless your DM just never puts difficult terrain in a combat encounter… as for Perform(Dance)… not a necessity, but being able to use it for Feinting does make it very desireable.
Are you a Spellcaster? Do you have a spellbook? Sounds like you absolutely must have Spellcraft then… unless you are perfectly fine only getting the bare minimum number of spells added to your spellbook at each level and never dare to take a level in a prestige class.
Do you make heavy use of Detect Magic? Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) are must haves for you then. Without those skill checks Detect Magic doesn’t actually tell you anything other than “there is a magical aura”. You can’t identify anything about it without the checks.
Do you fight enemies that grapple a lot? Do you deal with Spellcaster a who use entanglement or web? Web traps? Giant spiders? Giant snakes? Do you have a terrible CMD? Do you lack the ability to grant yourself Freedom of Movement? Escape Artist has suddenly become one of the most valuable skills in the world to you… honestly anyone with a low CMB should have at least a few ranks in this… even if you can cast freedom of movement you should still have ranks in this for the quite likely event when you find yourself trapped and out of castings of that spell.
Traps… Traps… Traps… There isn’t always a magical means to deal with every trap in the game. Some traps you just have to disable. Some can’t be disabled and must be avoided (usually via Acrobatics)… and should the even arise wherein all means to circumvent the trap should fail, having the appropriate skill to deal with the aftermath is a must (Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim are good skills for surviving many traps)… if your players rely on using magic to circumvent every trap and never bother with a simple disable check, then throw some traps as them that can’t be bypassed with low level magic…

The group I play with has come to an understanding that the most dangerous thing to any adventuring party is not a monster, malevolent being, trap, or any sort of spell… but rather the most simplest of hazards… running water… one player saw his whole party in another group TPK’d by crossing a river… I myself have nearly lost 3 characters to falling into rivers… and recently we had our entire party stuck trying to reach a boat for three hours because none of us had so much as even one tank in swim… and trust me, we tried every possible alternative for our level… if just one of us could swim we would have been through that encounter so much faster…

As for your list of mandatory skills…

Perception is the single most valuable skill in the entire game… everyone should have at least decent perception. Without it you can and will be blindsided quite often… walk face first into traps, get caught off guard and ambushed, fail to notice that pickpocket who just made off with all your gold, completely overlook things that should be obvious, walk right past the secret door for the 20th time, didn’t see the poison you just drank… things can quickly go really bad if you fail perception checks on a regular basis… so this is a no brainer here…

Knowledge is useful but not an absolute necessity… the only ones that can actually turn a battle from unbeatable to possible are Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, and Religion… and that is only because there are certain Aberrations (Dungeoneering), Monstrous Humanoids (Nature), Outsiders (Planes), and Undead (Religion) that have to be delt with in specific ways that an your party should be unaware of unless they succeed on the appropriate knowledge checks or are outright told by an NPC (which is something that should be avoided)… so that reduces your required knowledges from 6 to 4… none of the others are actually important when it comes to identifying weaknesses… while yes, you can learn vulnerabilities from the others, there is nothing that you might encounter that requires them outside of those 4 categories… of course as stated earlier, Arcana is necessary if you wish to actually identify spells and magical auras with detect magic… and Local is one of the most generally useful knowledges (but far from a requirement, since it can easily be replaced with Diplomacy checks made to gather information).

And that brings us to Diplomacy… your groups reliance of Diplomacy actually highlights a problem with the Downtime system rules… the system makes Diplomacy far more useful than it would otherwise be. Normally Diplomacy is a good skill to have at least one party member be good at, but it acts as a double edged sword at times… it can prevent encounters sometimes, but it can also just as easily cause them as well. Furthermore it is generally of no use if the subject is already attacking or already intends to attack. If your diplomatic character lacks the ability to speak a language your hostile friend understands then those diplomacy checks will get them absolutely nowhere fast… funny enough Intimidation can actually be used to accomplish all the same objectives as the normal usage of Diplomacy even… seeking to prevent a fight? Use intimidation to scare them off… and unlike Diplomacy, this skill is actually useful still when “diplomacy fails”… AKA during combat… without downtime rules making diplomacy a substitute for Profession, it is actually not nearly as valuable… in fact, Intimidate is technically more valuable due to still being fully functional even after combat starts.


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Again, I will grudgingly add spellcraft to the necessary skills. If a classic 4 person party has some kind of arcane spellcaster, it is likely that Spellcraft is a necessity.

While I agree with CR that certain classes require certain skills, those classes also have a number of skill ranks/level to justify their reliance on skills. Cavaliers, Brawlers, classes that rely on AC's, all of these typically have at least 4 skills + Int mod/level. If you WANT to be a Sneak Attack type character and WANT to focus on using Bluff to feint your enemies through your build, Bluff will be a necessary skill; however, playing that class/build is your choice so the extra, non-essential skill of Bluff isn't universally necessary for ALL characters.

Traps and hazards are a danger without skills, that much I'll also admit. Perception finds any mechanical trap and with the right Knowledge skill you can ID any natural Hazard, but getting past these without other skills can be tricky. I have however seen instances where clever use of spells or even mundane means can foil traps.

Intimidate is not a consideration for at least 2 of my 3 groups, and the fact that Diplomacy doesn't prevent combat if your foe is already intent on or currently attacking you doesn't matter to my players. Why? B/c, to paraphrase the guy running a PALADIN in one of my games: if we subdue and question the kobolds, then let them go, the threat still exists; if we slay the kobolds, they can't come back after us later. Killing all foes permanently ends the threat of these foes.


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Honestly it sounds like Sysryke was right; you're just having trouble with your group and this thread is a result of that.

All I'll say is that NO skill is mandatory. You could get by without any of them if you really wanted to.

Of the skills you've decided are mandatory, they're almost exclusively "perceptive" skills - skills that help you understand the world around you. Perception, Spellcraft, all knowledge skills. Seriously just add Sense Mptive to the list and you've got thst covered.


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Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.

Liberty's Edge

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Senko wrote:


That's GM dependant the I usually play with only allows spellcraft if your enchanting an existing item you still need either the item or to know how to craft it yourself. You can't use spellcraft to make a suit of armour but you can use it to enchant it.

Yes, you are correct, you don't craft the item with spellcraft, you only enchant it. On the other hand, you need a masterwork item only when you enchant a weapon or an armor. In theory, it is possible to take a piece of a burlap sack and use it to make a portable hole, spending all the money required on reagents. Generally, we consider that enchanting is done with high-quality items, but it isn't a requirement for most items.

Liberty's Edge

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MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.

Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue, even if they scream "He is there". Unless you beat his stealth, he gets to use sneak attack.

Liberty's Edge

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You need rank in Survival to know in what direction is the north. If they are exploring a megadungeon, revolving rooms and similar hazards are common.
The current rules aren't conducive to extensive and precise mapping. AD&D and D&D, with the low exploration speed, included a lot of mapping and accurate measurement. With the current rules, at most, you have a map with lines for the corridors and ballons for the rooms. Getting lost is easy.

Plenty of skills are useful even if you have them at a low rank. 3 in acrobatics, 1 in survival, all the skills you can't use untrained, etc.

Using spells to resolve all the problems that could be resolved by skills means that you don't have spells to resolve the problems that can be resolved only by spells, or that you regularly say "I don't have the right spell, I will rest and return with a new set of spells". That is possible only if the GM never pressures the players into using everything and feeling the sting of spending spells needlessly (or hp if they tank the traps). Time can be important. Even simply because a group of competitors can use the fact that you worked as a trailblazer and removed most obstacles to reach the goal before you.


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I agree with Mark to a certain extend. Skills were not created equals. Some of them are rolled very frequently: Perception, the 5-6 useful knowledge skill, etc. Others are so rare they might as well come of as often as trivial character caracteristics such as weight.

To mitigate this a little i use a few extra rules and tricks;

1. The background skill rule from unchained works great. Skills are divited into adventuring skills(useful) and background skill (less useful). Each character are given 2 extra skill rank per level to put into background skills. A character can decide to spent extra rank they would get for adventuring skill into extra background skill.

This is great because it allows skill starve classes, such as Paladin, Clerics and Fighters to have something else than their class defines them without gimping themselves. Your fighter could pick up craft(Armor) to be an armor. your cleric of Shelyn can pick up artistry(Painting) to show his dedication to bringing beauty in the world.

2. Verbal duels ruleset from Ultimate intrigue is great because it gives secondary skills, such as Knowledge(Nobility) or Knowledge(History) ways to shine within its system. It's also good for social duel because it's complex without being too complicated. I used it a few time and had a lot of fun with it. The only downside is that it's mostly focused for one on one debate, so i allow the party to help the primary debater with ''aid another'' so they can contribute.

3. I make sure that players concept align with their skills. A noble character typically need some ranks in knowledge(nobility), Ride, Perform(Any), etc.

4. I make sure that secondary skills can come in handy during investigation, information gathering, etc. For example, linguistics checks to notice forgery, knowledge(nobility) to know some dark facts about the local noble familly, etc.

5. I'm not overly generous on magical items and special material. If they want some, they can craft it.

Sure my trick wont make secondary skill any more powerful than the classic adventuring skills, but i find that it justify taking them at times. I've had some good success so far.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.
Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue, even if they scream "He is there". Unless you beat his stealth, he gets to use sneak attack.

You might wish to refamiliarize yourself with the stealth rules… unless that rogue is invisible or has Hide in Plain Sight their stealth is lost any time they end their turn out of cover or concealment and they cannot make any stealth checks while being observed. So if the rogue is “right behind you” they no longer benefiting from stealth unless it is still their turn and they just moved there with their move action. At which point, then and only then would you personally be required to make a perception to be aware of them before they sneak attack you.


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Diego Rossi: I have 2 megadungeons purchased from Frog God Games. I also have a book of small dungeons compiled by AAW games. Finally, I have Dragon's Demand and several Dungeon magazine adventures that I either use directly or draw inspiration from; rotating rooms hasn't come up much at all, so I don't know what your metric of "common" is.

As far as getting lost: DC 15; this is the number to hit to ensure the party is not lost. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the PCs can't use Aid Another when under duress, so this drops the DC to 10 for 3 party members to deliver some benefit towards the final check.

I've mentioned how necessary Perception is, so it is likely that at least one PC has a 14 or better Wis as the "perception guru." There's a +2 right there. I only need 2 other PCs to succeed in Aid Another or one PC to succeed while another cast's Guidance. These are both very real and possible scenarios for the PCs to succeed at.

Finally, I mention the PCs being under duress b/c of the Take 10 mechanic. If the party is not in immediate danger (like being chased or in combat), they can likely take 10 on their Survival check to avoid being lost.

Now if I'm chasing them, or they're in combat, the players might not care about getting lost. However, if they survive long enough to get their bearings, all a group of skill-starved, level 1 PCs need to do by RAW to find their way is 1. not be under duress, and 2. get to a +5 on their untrained skill check.

Mapping: there are no mapping skills in PF1e. At least, nothing that comes up as a "common" Craft or Profession skill in the core rules. There is no default then to mapping in terms of skills. Since being lost or not is a function of Survival, I've always defaulted to a Wis check to have enough of a crude map that the PCs can understand so as not to be lost. Players rarely actually declare, however, that they are creating a map in the first place.

The exception to this is my one stalled megadungeon game. That campaign seems to be on long-term pause and is likely deceased at this point, but early on the one player with Valet Raven familiar clarified w/me that it could use Prestidigitation at will to make simple, 2-D drawings. When I agreed, the player then further asked if the bird could simply mark down a running "mini-map" a la many video games, using Prestidigitation, to an extra book the character was going to purchase.

I liked the idea at the time, so I said sure. Due to the crudity of the drawing, I ruled that it only provided a +2 on Survival checks not to be lost, but again looking at the stuff I have listed above, this meant that the party then only had to scrape together a +3 from other sources, then take 10 while consulting the mini-map to avoid being lost.

In short, getting lost has never been much of an issue in my games, save for when the party is at sea. Since all 3 of my groups is averse to being in/near water, they never go to sea unless forced.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 13 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.
Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue ...

I'm playing a Bloodrager. I have Improved Uncanny Dodge (I'm also level 13, that was a typo).

More importantly than that though, my character's job in the party is to protect the squishy ranged/magic characters (everyone but himself), so if I got hit by a higher level Rogue who gets past my defences and deals 9d6 sneak attack damage to me then Great! Better that I take that damage than my party. If I make myself the target by being the only bozo still smelling the flowers as the assassins emerge then that's a job well done.

The point is that not everyone needs to have a high perception. For a Paladin (for example) skill points are precious, while hitpoints are cheap and expendable. It's a good idea for someone in the party to be good at Perception - heck, even a couple of someones - but not everyone needs to max this skill.

And yes I understand it's the most rolled skill in the game. I probably understand that better than you, given that I'ge actually tried playing a character with a low perception. I still feel totally fine letting the rest of my party shine in that particular area.


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IMC there are two skill monkeys (Rogue & Ranger) who can max out many things, one with 4skp/level who does OK at a few things, and a cleric and sorcerer who have both tanked Int. So they spend their few precious points just scraping enough together (1 point, anyway) to look half-competent in the basic class skills like Knowledge-Religion/Arcana, Sense Motive and Spellcraft. Neither of them or the fighter have any ranks in Perception, as the meagre +1 isn't significant compared to the +4 they get from a class skill. That'll change a bit once they're up a few levels, but not by much.

I use background skills, so they all have some depth in the miscellaneous stuff. Profession-Soldier, Craft-Carpentry and Lore-Kyonin have been quite useful.

As for Survival, they've used it a lot, be it for tracking, navigation, foraging or camping. I wouldn't expect it to be very relevant in a megadungeon unless you want to track something...though as Mark's murderhobos like to eliminate anything that crosses their path, I'd think they want it for that.

And "not getting lost" is very different from "going where you want to go". I speak as a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Navigation :) For example, to become unlost in the Verduran Forest, just go roughly west for 100 miles. You'll eventually hit the river or come out and find a peasant to tell you exactly where you are. Easy. But finding the ruined keep on this old map? DC25+, many checks. Finding a decent campsite in the woods during a storm and getting decent sleep without being eaten alive by ants or soaked or attacked by bears? It goes on.

I guess it's otherwise a matter of the point buy and what you can afford to spend on Int.

Liberty's Edge

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Chell Raighn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.
Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue, even if they scream "He is there". Unless you beat his stealth, he gets to use sneak attack.
You might wish to refamiliarize yourself with the stealth rules… unless that rogue is invisible or has Hide in Plain Sight their stealth is lost any time they end their turn out of cover or concealment and they cannot make any stealth checks while being observed. So if the rogue is “right behind you” they no longer benefiting from stealth unless it is still their turn and they just moved there with their move action. At which point, then and only then would you personally be required to make a perception to be aware of them before they sneak attack you.

Maybe you too need to re-familiarize yourself with them.

The rogue needs to hide behind cover for him to enter stealth, as total cover blocks LOS, but it doesn't need cover to maintain it after entering in stealth, partial cover is enough. So bushes, twilight, tall grass, furniture, fog, etc. are enough to maintain stealth.
As I said earlier, constantly maintaining stealth will require some maneuvering and the rogue could lose the opportunity to attack in some round, but with the right build getting to sneak attack a guy with low perception most of the time is easy.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Diego Rossi: I have 2 megadungeons purchased from Frog God Games. I also have a book of small dungeons compiled by AAW games. Finally, I have Dragon's Demand and several Dungeon magazine adventures that I either use directly or draw inspiration from; rotating rooms hasn't come up much at all, so I don't know what your metric of "common" is.

As far as getting lost: DC 15; this is the number to hit to ensure the party is not lost. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the PCs can't use Aid Another when under duress, so this drops the DC to 10 for 3 party members to deliver some benefit towards the final check.

I've mentioned how necessary Perception is, so it is likely that at least one PC has a 14 or better Wis as the "perception guru." There's a +2 right there. I only need 2 other PCs to succeed in Aid Another or one PC to succeed while another cast's Guidance. These are both very real and possible scenarios for the PCs to succeed at.

Finally, I mention the PCs being under duress b/c of the Take 10 mechanic. If the party is not in immediate danger (like being chased or in combat), they can likely take 10 on their Survival check to avoid being lost.

Now if I'm chasing them, or they're in combat, the players might not care about getting lost. However, if they survive long enough to get their bearings, all a group of skill-starved, level 1 PCs need to do by RAW to find their way is 1. not be under duress, and 2. get to a +5 on their untrained skill check.

Mapping: there are no mapping skills in PF1e. At least, nothing that comes up as a "common" Craft or Profession skill in the core rules. There is no default then to mapping in terms of skills. Since being lost or not is a function of Survival, I've always defaulted to a Wis check to have enough of a crude map that the PCs can understand so as not to be lost. Players rarely actually declare, however, that they are creating a map in the first place.

The exception to this is my one stalled megadungeon game. That campaign seems to be on...

On what basis revolving rooms are common? In 40 years of gaming, I have seen plenty of them. A few in Paizo products. From what I recall without consulting stuff, in Curse of the Crimson Throne, there is a very noteworthy example.

You are confounding a survival roll in the wilderness with knowing in what direction is going a corridor in a dungeon. Especially if a trap like a revolving room, a sliding chute or a teleport has sent you to a previously unexplored area.

There are mapping skills in PF1: Craft (maps) and profession (Cartographer). There was a discussion on how they work in this forum a few days ago.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.
Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue, even if they scream "He is there". Unless you beat his stealth, he gets to use sneak attack.
You might wish to refamiliarize yourself with the stealth rules… unless that rogue is invisible or has Hide in Plain Sight their stealth is lost any time they end their turn out of cover or concealment and they cannot make any stealth checks while being observed. So if the rogue is “right behind you” they no longer benefiting from stealth unless it is still their turn and they just moved there with their move action. At which point, then and only then would you personally be required to make a perception to be aware of them before they sneak attack you.

Maybe you too need to re-familiarize yourself with them.

The rogue needs to hide behind cover for him to enter stealth, as total cover blocks LOS, but it doesn't need cover to maintain it after entering in stealth, partial cover is enough. So bushes, twilight, tall grass, furniture, fog, etc. are enough to maintain stealth.
As I said earlier, constantly maintaining stealth will require some maneuvering and the rogue could lose the opportunity to attack in some round, but with the right build getting to sneak attack a guy with low perception most of the time is easy.

From the stealth skill rules:

[url=https://aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ItemName=Stealth wrote:
Breaking Stealth[/url] ] When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Note the bolded bit. The rogue must start their stealth from concealment or cover (never said or suggested that partial wasn’t fine), and they must end their turn in concealment or cover to maintian stealth. I’ve run across a lot of people who stop reading after a stealth check being needed to maintain stealth when leaving cover. But the rule doesn’t stop there it immediately continues to say that they must end their turn in cover as well to keep stealth. Now since it only cares about the end of their turn this does still let them attack from stealth as long as a target is close enough to get to from an area of cover or concealment with only a move action.


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In total I've also had 40 years of experience in TTRPGs in general, though as a player and DM/GM/Storyteller, etc. Not as a designer. I will agree; I've seen a "few" examples of rotating rooms. I wouldn't say these are "common," but that is subjective I suppose.

Anyway, the megadungeon I'm currently using for the 2 campaigns based around megadungeons doesn't feature rotating rooms. I could very easily add them. There are teleporters though, and one notable pit trap that dumps PCs in an area they may not yet have explored.

In these cases however, with teleporters and chutes, I wouldn't require a roll for being lost... they ARE lost, at least in regards to exploring the area they've been newly deposited into. Finding their way back to previous, known areas may be as simple as ascending the pit trap walls and disabling the covering mechanism from below or as complex as reversing a teleportation device.

Neither of those solutions would be a function of Survival.

Understanding the direction they're traveling underground is not useful, mechanically, in PF1e. In real life it is, but in PF1e there is an abstraction that says that, when lost (in ANY environment since no specific environment is called out as being excluded in the Survival rules) you simply need to hit a DC 15 to not be lost anymore.

Again, in an instance such as instantaneous transport to somewhere the PCs haven't been before I would not give the PCs the chance to not be lost with the Survival skill; they simply ARE lost. This would be the same if they were teleported from 1 level of a dungeon to another, from a home city to a random island at sea, or from one plane to another.

Liberty's Edge

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Chell Raighn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Oh, and I'm currently playing a level 14 character with +4 Perception (1 rank +3 class skill). He misses the occasional surprise round, but othersise the rest of the party has it covered.
Your party can't protect you from the sneak attacks of the hiding rogue, even if they scream "He is there". Unless you beat his stealth, he gets to use sneak attack.
You might wish to refamiliarize yourself with the stealth rules… unless that rogue is invisible or has Hide in Plain Sight their stealth is lost any time they end their turn out of cover or concealment and they cannot make any stealth checks while being observed. So if the rogue is “right behind you” they no longer benefiting from stealth unless it is still their turn and they just moved there with their move action. At which point, then and only then would you personally be required to make a perception to be aware of them before they sneak attack you.

Maybe you too need to re-familiarize yourself with them.

The rogue needs to hide behind cover for him to enter stealth, as total cover blocks LOS, but it doesn't need cover to maintain it after entering in stealth, partial cover is enough. So bushes, twilight, tall grass, furniture, fog, etc. are enough to maintain stealth.
As I said earlier, constantly maintaining stealth will require some maneuvering and the rogue could lose the opportunity to attack in some round, but with the right build getting to sneak attack a guy with low perception most of the time is easy.

From the stealth skill rules:

[url=https://aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ItemName=Stealth wrote:
Breaking Stealth[/url] ] When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is
...

And?

Besides your conclusion that I don't know that, have you noticed that I did say "As I said earlier, constantly maintaining stealth will require some maneuvering and the rogue could lose the opportunity to attack in some round, but with the right build getting to sneak attack a guy with low perception most of the time is easy."?

A rogue can sneak attack from 30' of distance, he can attack and then move.
If the terrain offer cover or concealment, he can attack, move and enter stealth while ending the turn in a position that allows him to see the target. Unless the target beat his stealth roll, next round he can repeat all that.
Alternatively, he can use spring attack to move, attack and move, but generally, he would have the problem of using fast stealth to move far away enough.


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Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, BAB +4. All of these need to be in place before a Rogue or U-Rogue could make the attacks DR is talking about. This means the NPC enemy Rogue or U-Rogue would need to be at least Level 6.

Is this enemy the BBEG of a combat, the elite unit of a combat, or the default low-end minion of the combat? Who knows; that much info is not given. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Rogue or U-Rogue is meant to be a threat to four level 5 PCs.

In this scenario a PC that did not prioritize Wis and Perception would have a Perception of, perhaps, +1; based on the NPC beginning the combat in either Cover or Concealment at 30' from the party and being in Stealth, the PC that did not prioritize Wis and Perception likely will not see the rogue and will suffer a Sneak Attack.

However, as I've stated above, even skill-starved PCs in a four person party could, and in my estimation SHOULD, have at least one PC with a Perception with 5 ranks by now as well as a Wis of AT LEAST 14 or higher, where Perception is a Class skill. At the low end, this PC would have a Perception of +10 barring any pre-existing buffs or magic items. While this is still a less than 50% chance that PC spots the rogue/U-rogue in the Surprise round, chances are far greater than with a PC that does not prioritize this skill.

However... Surprise round. If the NPC attacks from the Surprise round, they can EITHER use a Standard or a Move action; Spring Attack cannot be used. Therefore, if the NPC begins combat in Stealth, from Cover or Concealment and they make a Sneak Attack from 30', they have now revealed themselves with an attack.

The remedy for this is sniping. This incurs a -20 to Stealth; there are archetypes, talents, racial traits and feats that can reduce or mitigate this penalty. I would posit that, for Diego Rossi's NPC to effectively attack from stealth, then continue maintaining places of stealth from which to continually make SA's from, they'd need to either exclusively be sniping, take some action in the Surprise round that alerts the party to a fight (starting regular initiative) without revealing themselves with an attack, or they need to use a combination of Sniping and Spring Attack.

Regardless, 4 martial PCs stuck in this predicament with low Perception checks should have enough HP to withstand the first initial SA. After that, knowing that there is a stealthy jack-rabbit of a foe in the area, they can ready actions to attack their enemy when they exit Stealth.

At least, I THINK this is how the rules work. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I apologize if I am.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, BAB +4. All of these need to be in place before a Rogue or U-Rogue could make the attacks DR is talking about. This means the NPC enemy Rogue or U-Rogue would need to be at least Level 6.

When using spring attack, not for firing an arrow and then moving. The rogue will not even suffer any penalty to stealth if he fires an arrow, moves half his speed, and hide while moving.

The rules for sniping are when you want to enter stealth while staying in the same location.

Quote:
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Attack and with the move action maintain your obscured location.

What I am speaking of instead is attack, lose your obscure location, move up to half of your movement (movement action) and enter stealth while moving. Even firing an arrow and taking a 5' step work, if that breaks the line of sight.

Entering stealth requires you not to be observed (breaking LOS) and moving. End of the requirements.

His position can be obvious: "That guy is behind that column.", but that doesn't allow you to see the guy. You still need to move in a position where you can see behind the column, and if there is some level of concealment (like in twilight condition, or dim light) you still need to beat his stealth roll.


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Well… if atleast one member of that party has sight of the rogue, then the rogue is incapable of using stealth again as they are now observed, unless they use a distraction or break line of sight first… which does actually make it easier for a character with bad perception to survive such an encounter so long as someone can keep visual on the sneaky rogue. Of course if there is a 2nd enemy in the mix it does make things easier for the rogue since the second enemy could divert the attention of whomever has spotted them.

Stealth wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Liberty's Edge

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Chell Raighn wrote:

Well… if atleast one member of that party has sight of the rogue, then the rogue is incapable of using stealth again as they are now observed, unless they use a distraction or break line of sight first… which does actually make it easier for a character with bad perception to survive such an encounter so long as someone can keep visual on the sneaky rogue. Of course if there is a 2nd enemy in the mix it does make things easier for the rogue since the second enemy could divert the attention of whomever has spotted them.

Stealth wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

And that is why I have said several times that he needs to break LOS. But after he has entered stealth, your companions perceiving him will not protect you. You still lose your dexterity bonus to AC (barring class abilities, naturally).

Barring some spells or some special ability, you don't share what you perceive with others.

Scarab Sages

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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

In total I've also had 40 years of experience in TTRPGs in general, though as a player and DM/GM/Storyteller, etc. Not as a designer. I will agree; I've seen a "few" examples of rotating rooms. I wouldn't say these are "common," but that is subjective I suppose.

Anyway, the megadungeon I'm currently using for the 2 campaigns based around megadungeons doesn't feature rotating rooms. I could very easily add them. There are teleporters though, and one notable pit trap that dumps PCs in an area they may not yet have explored.

In these cases however, with teleporters and chutes, I wouldn't require a roll for being lost... they ARE lost, at least in regards to exploring the area they've been newly deposited into. Finding their way back to previous, known areas may be as simple as ascending the pit trap walls and disabling the covering mechanism from below or as complex as reversing a teleportation device.

Neither of those solutions would be a function of Survival.

Understanding the direction they're traveling underground is not useful, mechanically, in PF1e. In real life it is, but in PF1e there is an abstraction that says that, when lost (in ANY environment since no specific environment is called out as being excluded in the Survival rules) you simply need to hit a DC 15 to not be lost anymore.

Again, in an instance such as instantaneous transport to somewhere the PCs haven't been before I would not give the PCs the chance to not be lost with the Survival skill; they simply ARE lost. This would be the same if they were teleported from 1 level of a dungeon to another, from a home city to a random island at sea, or from one plane to another.

I took a look at nethys and I don't think it works that way. The wording is not to get unlost but to avoid getting lost. Subtle but important difference . ..

For getting along in the wild or for gaining the Fortitude save bonus noted in the first table above, you make a Survival check once every 24 hours. The result of that check applies until the next check is made. To avoid getting lost or avoid natural hazards, you make a Survival check whenever the situation calls for one. Retries to avoid getting lost in a specific situation or to avoid a specific natural hazard are not allowed.

The DC 15 is to avoid getting lost in the first place and needs to be made whenever appropriate (avoiding hazards, going through dense undergrowth, etc). However if you do get lost that DC 15 no longer applies because your trying to find out where you are not keep yourself from getting lost. That is to go from Rivendell to Mt Doom its DC 15 once per day but after you get nabbed by spiders in Fanghorn forest and lose the path you have a far higher DC to try and figure out where you are and how to get from there to your destination.

I'd also personally apply the poor visibility tracking rules to the checks i.e. Clear sunny day is DC 15, travelling on an overcast night (also underground) DC 21 (15 + 6), traveling at night when the stars are visible DC 18 (15 + 3), travelling in fog or during rain DC 18 (15 +3), travelling on a rainy night DC 24 (15 + 3 + 6) as they make it harder to tell where you are and spot landmarks.

There's also a difference between navigating a dungeon and survival checks. To stick with the hobbit going through the pass is a DC 15 survival check increasing in bad weather but when the snow and storm giants force them back into the mines of Moria that stops being applicable. A survival check of any DC wont tell you which of the 3 paths is the right one to go through the mountain that requires a knowledge check if you can even do that given that its been long abandoned. Then after you've taken multiple forks through a largely the same mine you need to either be very lucky or have been mapping it as you go along. Otherwise your not just lost but your lost in a way survival probably wont help with until you find something more distinctive e.g. the last stand room or the bridge over lava and even then I personally wouldn't allow it to get you out as your not mapping make our way along this stream then head inland 3 kilomters your trying to go through mining tunnels.

Liberty's Edge

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Technically you don't need Knowledge skills. Profession Scholar, allows one to make Knowledge checks based on your studies in the profession as well as some Craft Skills such as Alchemy, and Scholar was an actual profession so it can work, can even alternate the name to Sage if you want.

So then all you need is a high Wisdom-based character. Just be careful though, most GMs will only allow the check once to see if you've "read the Subject" and the DC's can be higher if said creature/group/thing is Unique and has never been recorded anywhere.


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So MT759'er, I'm having trouble hunting down the RAW on Profession: Scholar. Is there any way you can link me to where the breakout is on that skill/choice combo is? I have a player that ALWAYS plays know-it-all arcane caster types, but he might make a Wis based PC if he could use this skill in the build.


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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
So MT759'er, I'm having trouble hunting down the RAW on Profession: Scholar. Is there any way you can link me to where the breakout is on that skill/choice combo is? I have a player that ALWAYS plays know-it-all arcane caster types, but he might make a Wis based PC if he could use this skill in the build.

I would also like to echo how keenly interested I am in this and any other similar things.


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It doesn't work.

A single profession skill taking the place of 10 other skills without any kind of balancing factor would be a total non-starter. Maybe with an extremely inexperienced (or just Laissez-faire I guess) GM you could strong-arm them into allowing this, but if you can strong-arm the GM that much you don't really need these kinds of bonuses ... or any bonuzes really.

The 3 ways I might allow Profession: Scholar to work as knowledge skills would be:
- It only applies to certain knowledge skills (History and nobility being the easiest to argue)
- It has a maximum DC that the Profession check can reach (eg. the highest Knowledge DC you can use Profession: Scholar for is 10+ your ranks in Profession Scholar).
- The DC for Profession: Scholar is higher than the DC for the relevant Knowledge check (probably starting at +10 to the DC).
(Note: I wouldn't use all of these, just one. I'd probably talk with the player and see what works for oth of us.)

The actual wording for Profession is this ...

PROFESSION wrote:
You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems. You can also answer questions about your Profession. Basic questions are DC 10, while more complex questions are DC 15 or higher.

So you can use Profession: Scholar to answer questions about being a Scholar, but not to answer questions like: "What is that monster?"

I'd certainly allow you to use Profession: Scholar in place of a knowledge check while doing research in a library or somesuch though.

Liberty's Edge

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To add to what MrCharisma said, you can use Profession: scholar to research topics covered in a library to which you have access, but that has several caveats:

1) The GM needs to detail what is in the libraries you access. To make a modern example, you will find very little material about history or religion in the library of the physics department of an university;

2) Researching obscure information will require a lot of time. Without a modern catalog divided by subjects, you will have a very hard time finding the books that treat the subjects that interest you.
The first library catalogs with that kind of cataloging (not formalized) were founded in the late Renaissance.

3) Most libraries are private. You need contacts or to pay a lot of money to access them.

4) Someone needs to have written down the information.

Scarab Sages

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Diego Rossi wrote:

To add to what MrCharisma said, you can use Profession: scholar to research topics covered in a library to which you have access, but that has several caveats:

1) The GM needs to detail what is in the libraries you access. To make a modern example, you will find very little material about history or religion in the library of the physics department of an university;

2) Researching obscure information will require a lot of time. Without a modern catalog divided by subjects, you will have a very hard time finding the books that treat the subjects that interest you.
The first library catalogs with that kind of cataloging (not formalized) were founded in the late Renaissance.

3) Most libraries are private. You need contacts or to pay a lot of money to access them.

4) Someone needs to have written down the information.

The questions I find myself wondering is (1) given Golarion has guns, super intelligent people and other things could their libraries have a cataloguing saystem and (2) does Golarion have printing presses or are we still in an era of any books needing to be hand written/scribed?


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1) Yeah I'm sure they have cataloguing systems, but there's probably no universal way of doing it. Profession: Scholar is probably all about learning those systems. That's basically the job description.

2) No I don't beleave Golarion has a printing press, or any other kind of mass media for that matter (If someone can point me to an AP with a news paper or something I'll happily admit I'm wrong about this though).


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Pathfinder Kingmaker CrPG has a printing press plotline.

Technically, you can substitue one skill for quite a bunch of them, but you need to be mythic trickster for this, pick "This may just work" and accept a -5 malus if you use the knowledge you are good at for other knowledge rolls.


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If you want to research stuff in a library, wouldn't you pick Profession: Librarian? It's one of the "professions" mentioned in the skill in the CRB.

Also, if there's no source for Profession: Scholar other than theorycrafting, I will say that I would not allow it to work like that at my table.

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