Let’s look at this through a different lense for a moment… let’s say there was a prestige class that had a requirement of “ability to create steel items” and a class that had a an ability that let them create a limited number of items per day out of various different materials. If at first level you can make items out of wood and take a feat that allows you to harden wooden items you create to be as strong as steel and “are treated as steel for all purposes” do you count as having the ability to create steel items and therefore qualify for the prestige class?
your example is flawed.
there is a difference between an object and object leveling\worth. the requirement is not to make a 2nd level spell it's to cast a 2nd level spell. in your example the requirement would not be to 'make a steel item's it would be to 'make items worth x gp'. and an ability that make your limited ability to 'make items that are worth x/2 gp' into an ability that increases the worth of the itmes you make by +x/2. in this case the items you end up making would be worth x gp.
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lets just make it clear, do any of you disagree that using the mirror\sunrod trick a caster can use a 1st level spell slot to cast a spell that end up for all purposes treated as a 2nd level?
if so, how does the feat work by your perspective?
my point is that the requirement is for casting a 2nd level spell, not having 2nd level spell slots\prepared spells. and for that the feat is more then enough.
You didn't "answer [my] question about the increased spell slot", you tried to distract from it:
(pretty sure the chapter the explain material component is the magic section and it was at the spell casting details, along with targeting, saves etc)
Along with targetting, saves and spell level. And while the material component is indeed only used during casting, the spell level increase is certainly active outside of it, too.
Your "example" of the Fighter is twice faulty, first because it doesn't even apply when you can't cast the spell without having 2nd level spell slots to begin with, and second because losing access to stuff because you no longer fulfill prereqs is actually establised in the rules. A more fitting analogy would be "just because you could later equip a Belt of Giant Strength doesn't mean you can select Power Attack with your 11 strength, even if you have such a belt in your equipment and have previously worn it".
The stuff about "looping up" is just pure nonsense (and an appeal to ridicule) as it rests on applying both mine and your interpretation, and doesn't happen with my interpretation alone.
So yeah, I did read the entire post. The statement from my last post still stands.
let's try and envision it your way. if the ability worked before itself (and if only once). you are asking a caster to invest in a feat that increase his spell level by one but also need to increase his spell slot by one (and not indefinitely).
You act as if that's the only thing the feat does, but that is completely false. Mirror Tricks has five options, Sunrod Tricks has six options. An individual option being weaker than a feat is intended, as players are expected to make use of more than one option.
Also, a +1 heightened Continual Flame is actually pretty good because it works in an area of Darkness. But if you don't want heighten Spell for other things, too, getting the ability alongside other options can make Equipment Trick (Sunrod) a desirable choice.
if you want it to work before using a spell slot it's a worse designed limited to one level heighten spell.
And now we're getting to the root of the problem - you aren't arguing based on what the text says, you're arguing based on what you think the ability must surely do, under the unfounded assumption that it must absolutely be a good, feat-worth option on it's own.
do any of you disagree that using the mirror\sunrod trick a caster can use a 1st level spell slot to cast a spell that end up for all purposes treated as a 2nd level?
Yes, I do indeed disagree. Nothing says you can prepare the spell in or cast it with the original spell slot, and thus you can't use it with a 1st level spell without having 2nd level spell slots.
Your entire arguments rests on the feat being actively applied at the time of casting, but that's not at all supported by the text.
Let’s look at this through a different lense for a moment… let’s say there was a prestige class that had a requirement of “ability to create steel items” and a class that had a an ability that let them create a limited number of items per day out of various different materials. If at first level you can make items out of wood and take a feat that allows you to harden wooden items you create to be as strong as steel and “are treated as steel for all purposes” do you count as having the ability to create steel items and therefore qualify for the prestige class?your example is flawed.
there is a difference between an object and object leveling\worth. the requirement is not to make a 2nd level spell it's to cast a 2nd level spell. in your example the requirement would not be to 'make a steel item's it would be to 'make items worth x gp'. and an ability that make your limited ability to 'make items that are worth x/2 gp' into an ability that increases the worth of the itmes you make by +x/2. in this case the items you end up making would be worth x gp.
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lets just make it clear, do any of you disagree that using the mirror\sunrod trick a caster can use a 1st level spell slot to cast a spell that end up for all purposes treated as a 2nd level?
if so, how does the feat work by your perspective?my point is that the requirement is for casting a 2nd level spell, not having 2nd level spell slots\prepared spells. and for that the feat is more then enough.
It’s not flawed actually, but it clearly went straight over your head. It’s a 1 for one recreation of this very situation but with different actors. In place of spells you have ability to create items of X material type. The feat treating your wood item as steel is effectively mirror trick/sunrods trick. Wood = 1st level spells, steel = second level spells. Having something that lets you treat your first level spells as second level for all purposes doesn’t mean your ability to cast 1st level spells is now the ability to cast 2nd level spells.
You actually even acknowledge the actual problem here for once even…
but all this is side tracking, the fact of the matter is the ability uses the words 'The spell is treated' as in the spell is cast the same way +the mirror\sunrod but treated as if it's 1 level higher.
treating is not the same as the source but get you the same end result.so if i buy a candy for a dollar or use a stamp that is treated as if i payed a dollar - i still get to own a candy.
the feat doesn't let you cast an x level spell that count as an x level spell. that would not be the right feat here. it let you cast an x level spell that in the end result is treated as if you cast an x+1 spell for all purposes.
The end result is the same, but not the method. The method is what matters. Your candy bar example… let’s change that to represent how a prerequisite would function shall we?
You buy a candy store from a store with stamps and they have a sale going on that gives you 1 free cookie with any cash purchase. You get the candy bar (the normal expected result) just as if you had paid cash, but because you paid with stamps you do not get the free cookie.
The same applies with your spells here. You used a first level spell and a special material to treat it as 2nd. Your ability to cast spells hasn’t improved only the end result. You don’t have the ability to cast 2nd level spells, you merely have the ability to cast 1st level but know a trick to garner the results of a 2nd level.
(text omitted )
ok so you seem to not know or try to act is if you do not know how the rules go about when something is 'treated\counted' as something else.
when a warpriest pick a combat feat and count his levels as fighter levels no 1 ask him to actually have fighter levels. same for ranger and druid levels for his animal companion and stuff that treat a caster's level as higher for dispelling specific things or a human using racial heritage (dwrf) feat to count as a dwarf.as a rule when an ability treat something as something else the whole point of the ability is that before having it you (normally) do not count as what it is it's effecting you to be as (which is why i keep bringing in the time line keeping). without racial heritage dwarf that human does not count as a dwarf and can't take dwarven feats, that ranger doesn't count as druid for his animal companion and that warpriest can't take feats that ask for fighter levels.
AFTER the ability take effect all of them do. it's what the ability does, it's main purpose.
now if an ability say you treat the spell as one level higher. then BEFORE using the ability, that spell was one level lower, asking for it to already be one level higher before the ability take effect is just against what the ability does. and if it is indeed part of the ability it would say so. like in heighten spell where you increase the spell level but required to have the higher level spell slot.
you don't go to the warpriest and ask him how are you taking fighter only feats you are not a fighter, and if you do he tell you ' my ability say that for this feat i count as a fighter '
same here, the spell doesn't need to be a 2nd level spell before you increase it's level with the ability, and asking for that would be pointed out, as is - the spell WAS a level 1 spell before the ability took place AND USED A LEVEL 1 SPELL SLOT. BUT AFTER THE ABILTY IS USED (along with a mirror\sunrod consumed) it is now a 2nd level spell for all purposes. and since you casted it. it there fore make you ABLE TO CAST 2nd LEVEL SPELLS. which is all the requirement for the prestige class asked for. if the caster would have used a 2nd level spell slot before using the ability to cast the spell. the spell would have turned into a 3rd level spell after the ability took place.
now we might have a general vs specific rule struggle here which might have set you off. generally for a caster to be able to cast 2nd level spells he need to use a 2nd level spell slot. but this specific ability let him cast a 2nd level spell with a 1st level slot -specific trump general. so after the ability have it's effect the spell that was cast is a 2nd level spell.
the prestige class ask for the character to be able to cast 2nd level spells. Being able mean having the ability to do something. normally being able to cast 2nd level spells you need 3rd level wizard (4th sorcerer etc) but that might not be the only ability that let one cast 2nd level spells. this feat also give one the ability to cast 2nd level spells.
you are trying to block any other ability to cast 2nd level spell, and to do so you need to bring a rule saying: 'this is the only way to cast spells of this level'. so far you failed to do so.
you only pointed out a method -the general one - to cast 2nd level spells. but you failed to bring a rule excluding others
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@ Chell Raighn you wrote:
"The end result is the same, but not the method. The method is what matters. Your candy bar example… let’s change that to represent how a prerequisite would function shall we?
You buy a candy store from a store with stamps and they have a sale going on that gives you 1 free cookie with any cash purchase. You get the candy bar (the normal expected result) just as if you had paid cash, but because you paid with stamps you do not get the free cookie.
The same applies with your spells here. You used a first level spell and a special material to treat it as 2nd. Your ability to cast spells hasn’t improved only the end result. You don’t have the ability to cast 2nd level spells, you merely have the ability to cast 1st level but know a trick to garner the results of a 2nd level."
you claim i don't have the ability to cast 2nd level spells, but that is right only before the ability have it's effect. once it happen and the spell is cast it is a 2nd level spell for all purposes. hence you have the ability to cast 2nd level spells. (in a way the feat IS the ability to cast 2nd level spells, some gain that ability by leveling up. some take feats, both, non the less, gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells)
in your example the stamp i had, had a specific writing saying 'this count as cash for everything (including getting +1 free cookie)'. for it to not give a cookie there should be an added line saying 'for everything but free +1 cookie' etc. that or the free cookie have a writing saying 'stamps that count as cash do not grant the free cookie'.
look at it this way. before a wizard get to 3rd level he can't normally cast 2nd level spells, but once he does he is capable to do so. would you tell that wizard 'you are not capable to cast 2nd level spells since when you where level 2 you couldn't'?, no! why? because he GAINED THE ABILITY TO DO SO when he leveled.
but you seem to think that is the only way to gain said ability. and so far i have not seen any rule brought forth to prove this
if anyone ask a wizard 'how are you able to cast a 2nd level light\figment spell' his answer might be - 'im a 3rd(+) level wizard', or it might be 'i have taken 2 feats and used an expansive mirror\sunrod to be bale to do so'. but the end effect is both cases are able to cast 2nd level spells (somewhat limited selection in the later case)
you are putting a limit on the 'all purposes' words in the feat that is not there.
As much as I hate to say it, I think Derklord is right on this one. The Equipment Trick options (for Trickster's Mirror and Sunrod Like the Sun) that let you have a spell work at a higher level are acting as if you had gotten a free rank of Heighten Spell to apply to the qualifying spells, and should have been worded as such to avoid confusion, because they do not give you a higher level spell slot to use.
And by the way, Trickster's Mirror has the same problem as Sunrod in that if you DID qualify for something dependent upon this feat, and lose the mirror, you are in trouble until you get another one.
On a different but related note, I think it would have been cool if Mystic Theurge normally didn't allow early entry, but then had early entry options associated with specific deities and philosophies. For instance, qualifying by means of an innate Spell-Like Ability fits very well thematic with Nethys, and Equipment Trick (Sunrod) could fit with Sarenrae, and Trickster's Mirror could fit with Sivanah. (The latter 2 methods would have explicit text that says you don't have to have the item on you -- you just have to have demonstrated that you know how to do the trick, just like you don't have to have an unspent use of a Spell-Like Ability.) The best place for such text would be not in the Mystic Theurge entry itself, but in the deity entries somewhere close to where they list the Unique Spell Rules.
"And by the way, Trickster's Mirror has the same problem as Sunrod in that if you DID qualify for something dependent upon this feat, and lose the mirror, you are in trouble until you get another one."
only if you think that a caster that is out of his 2nd+ level spell slots is also in trouble.
the faq talks about loosing the ability to fulfill the feat requirement, not use the feat.
for example. if you do not have the right str score anymore you are not fulfilling the requirement of the feat power attack, so it and stuff that require it my suffer. but if you have no melee weapon in hand or are using a ranged weapon you are not barred from the feat and anything that require it as that this only effecting using the feat. not fulfilling it's requirements.
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zza ni, come back when you're willing to actually address my arguments. You're trying to come up with one flawed analogy after another in a pathetic attempt to hide that you can't beat my arguments. Instead of some blanket statement that ultimately does nothing but repeat your previous, unproven statements, you should actually address the individual points I'm making. Until you do so, my points stand undisputed.
i read you post, it is mostly answered in the post above, i just didn't like quoting it and making a wall of text, but since you asked so nicely:
"Along with targeting, saves and spell level. And while the material component is indeed only used during casting, the spell level increase is certainly active outside of it, too."
yes it is active outside, but not BEFORE! when you have an ability to count a caster level as +4 higher for dispelling his spell, do you also need his caster level to be 4 higher before the ability is used? the increase is active. meaning that before it was active it was not increased. if the ability treat the spell as one higher in al purposes, then without the ability the spell is 1 lower then the end result with all purposes - that include the spell slot, asking for it to use a higher spell slot BEFORE it increase the spell level without it being specifically called out in the ability goes against every other time something is treated as something else in pathfinder. you do not ask the human with dwarven heritage to count as a dwarf before since after he count as dwarf for all requirements.
i can pile up examples of this , can you point one place where an ability treat something as something else but require it to be that something else before, without mentioning it in the ability itself?
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"You act as if that's the only thing the feat does, but that is completely false. Mirror Tricks has five options, Sunrod Tricks has six options. An individual option being weaker than a feat is intended, as players are expected to make use of more than one option.
Also, a +1 heightened Continual Flame is actually pretty good because it works in an area of Darkness. But if you don't want heighten Spell for other things, too, getting the ability alongside other options can make Equipment Trick (Sunrod) a desirable choice."
and all this has nothing to do with the fact the heighten spell take the effort to explain that even if the spell is higher it uses a higher level slot and this ability doesn't. much like most other abilities that treat\count something as another -they don't ask you to already have that ability before they give effect at the new effect. (you don't have +1 to caster level of ability but only if your caster level is already at +1)
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"And now we're getting to the root of the problem - you aren't arguing based on what the text says, you're arguing based on what you think the ability must surely do, under the unfounded assumption that it must absolutely be a good, feat-worth option on it's own."
no im arguing how abilities that treat\count stuff in pathfinder work. they let some1 who doesn't have x to count as if he has x (most of the time for specific stuff. like feat requirement etc). this feat treat your spell as 1 higher. as such the spell before the feat effect is is at x and uses a spell slot of x, should you use the ability with said spell it's spell level rises to x+1 but since it only treat as it doesn't change what you started with, only how it effect other things. so you started with a spell that used a level 1 spell slot. and now it is treated as if it was a spell that used a level 2 spell slot, BUT IT DIDN'T NEED TO USE ONE, that is how 'treating stuff as ' work in pathfinder. and in the rare case where it would have required a higher spell slot it mentioned so, like in heighten spell.
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"Yes, I do indeed disagree. Nothing says you can prepare the spell in or cast it with the original spell slot, and thus you can't use it with a 1st level spell without having 2nd level spell slots.
Your entire arguments rests on the feat being actively applied at the time of casting, but that's not at all supported by the text."
no my entire argument is that an ability that treat something as another doesn't change what that something is before it's taking effect. and since this feat ask for the use of a spell material component (which is only used as part of casting spells) to work (if you have no mirror the spell stay the same ) and in pathfinder when things treat something as something else the thing they change is how other things treat said something, not the core of it. so if a human is treated as a dwarf he is still the same human, but now can effect things that need to be a dwarf. and the spell is treated as 1 higher, so it's a level 1 spell BEFORE the feat change it to count as 2nd level.
so you can cast a 1st level spell without the mirror and have it stay a 1st level spell, but should you do the same with the feat it turn into a 2nd level spell once you use the mirror in the casting, if you also needed to provide a higher level slot (like a 1 level heighten spell)the feat would have mentioned it )(just like it does in heighten spell).
since it doesn't it should work like any other ability in pathfinder that simulate an other ability, no need for the original ability. a ranger doesn't need druid levels to count as druid (for companion). a warpriest doesn't need fighter level to count as fighter (for bonus feats) etc. this spell doesn't need a higher level slot to be treated as a higher level spell.
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after dissing my post i have answered yours's so how about actually answering to what i wrote in the post above and show me one rule that say that spell casting of level x spells can only be achieved with class progression and nothing else.
so far i proved that this feat allow one to cast a spell that count as 1 level higher, and working like other abilities in pathfinder when you count for something you do not (unless specifically called out) need to provide the things you count for.
you on the other hand need to loopside read this feat as a somewhat ill written heighten spell that lack explicit words about using a higher level slot for it to work the way you deem it to work.
no my entire argument is that an ability that treat something as another doesn't change what that something is before it's taking effect.
"To cast a spell with a material (M) [...] component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action" "preparing" means it's has to be done before the actual casting of the spell begins. Which means that for a spontaneous caster, the feat must be used and come into effect before the spell slot is expended. So even if your insistence that the feat does nothing before you actually use the material component was true, it doesn't make spontaneous casters not need a higher level slot, as those aren't checked before, but after the feat has taken effect.
So spontaneous caster's can't benefit, but how about prepared ones? The spell preparation is done way beforehand, isn't it? Well, look at this text: "Prepared Spell Retention: Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in his mind as a nearly cast spell until he uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until he abandons it." "Precribed" it says. Per the definition of the word, a prescription must be done beforehand, which shows that prepared casters* also have to apply the feat before the actual casting begins. The only time that logically can check for what's "prescribed" is spell preparation.
So both spontaneous and prepared casters need to use a higher level spell slot to benefit form the feat. Q.E.D.
*) The CRB also says "Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do" , so it's not literally just Wizards.
show me one rule that say that spell casting of level x spells can only be achieved with class progression and nothing else.
How about you show me a rule that says spell casting of level x spells can be achieved with something else. Pathfinder is a permissive rule system, meaning you need text to do something.
yes it is active outside, but not BEFORE!
This isn't addressing my argument, it's a repeat of your original statement. Your 'evidence' for the statement, i.e. what I actually replied to, was"the chapter the explain material component is the magic section", and I've shown that to be not valid evidence because spell levels are also explained there.
and all this has nothing to do with the fact the heighten spell take the effort to explain that even if the spell is higher it uses a higher level slot and this ability doesn't.
That was not your argument, so this is an attempt at moving the goalposts, which means you didn't actually address my argument. Your statement was "you are asking a caster to invest in a feat that increase his spell level by one but also need to increase his spell slot by one (and not indefinitely)." which i've shown to be wrong as the investment is for more than what you said.
no im arguing how abilities that treat\count stuff in pathfinder work.
Another attempt at moving the goalposts, and thus another case you you not actually addressing my argument. In the statement I responded to you argued that my interpretation must be false because "it's a worse designed limited to one level heighten spell." Which is not an valid argument because it's based on the faulty assumption that every feat was good (plus the faulty assumption that the feat does nothign else).
You still haven't addressed my actual arguments. But unless you can properly address and disprove what I said above outside of the spoiler, you don't even need to bother addressing the three above things.
Zza ni, you are completely missing the point and misunderstanding everything. So let me try to break it down into the simplest format possible for you.
1) a 1st level wizard has the ability to cast 1st level spells.
2) said 1st level wizard has the sunrod trick or mirror trick feat.
3) they cast a 1st level illusion or light spell with a 1st level spell slot.
4) that spell is a 1st level spell before and after casting.
5) they cast the same spell again using the trick.
6) the spell consumes a 1st level slot as they are actively casting a first level spell.
7) the trick empowers the spell as it is cast.
8) the resulting spell effect is treated as 2nd level.
9) the wizard can still only knows how to cast 1st level spells.
FYI: if equipment trick worked how you think it does then upon taking it you would retroactively gain access to any 2nd level bonus spell slots from your casting modifier at 1st level. As those slots are restricted by your ability to cast spells of those levels. If you gained said slots and had a way to learn spells of higher level to use those slots, you could in theory push through to 5th level spells quite easily at level 1, get your hands on a +6 headband and you can get up to 8th.
Also, the tricks only count the spells as higher level “when cast this way”. It isn’t a permanent constant effect… it is “when you do this” or as I have stated previously “a modification after the fact”.
Alternatively it very well could work as Derklord stated… heightened and thus requires you to be able to cast spells of higher levels to even use it.
lets just make it clear, do any of you disagree that using the mirror\sunrod trick a caster can use a 1st level spell slot to cast a spell that end up for all purposes treated as a 2nd level?
if so, how does the feat work by your perspective?my point is that the requirement is for casting a 2nd level spell, not having 2nd level spell slots\prepared spells. and for that the feat is more then enough.
I absolutely do not consider Equipment Trick as prerequisite for entry into Mystic Theurge. I don't even know if I consider Faith Magic adequate since it be but one spell, and Mystic Theurge requires you to be "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells... key word(s) being spellS... plural of each.
But honestly, Mystic Theurge sucks so bad, I would allow Equipment Trick/Faith Magic to qualify for entry... it smells like cheese, but you can have it. Knock yourself out...
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I absolutely do not consider Equipment Trick as prerequisite for entry into Mystic Theurge. I don't even know if I consider Faith Magic adequate since it be but one spell, and Mystic Theurge requires you to be "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells... key word(s) being spellS... plural of each.
I never particularly liked the line of reasoning that goes with arguing over the ability to cast a single 2nd level spell or more than one 2nd level spell. I don't particularly like early entry shenanigans and only begrudgingly acknowledge that Faith Magic does fulfill that requirement.
Why is that? The rules don't dictate a particular time window in which those spells have to be cast, merely the capability to cast them. That alone is more than sufficient to dismiss most arguments that hinge on the plurality of spells needed. Outside of Faith Magic (only giving one spell slot per day), you can get around the issue by just having a sufficiently high enough casting stat (say Rangers or Paladins that get 0 spell slots but able to cast if their stat is sufficient for a bonus slot).
After that consideration (and many years of seeing this, and OTHER, arguments about Mystic Theurges played out incessantly), I am just left with my own personal bias of not liking HOW it works, rather than any sufficiently adequate evidence to insist that it does not work.
Finally, a question I want to answer.
Yeah, sorry about that. Reasons like this are why I never really got around to doing my own thing on the Mystic Theurge. Apologies for the derailment.
It is quite petty of me, indeed, to argue the plural of 2nd-level spells mentioned as being prerequisite. And rarely do I ever give that much of a $#!+ about any rules, ever... but this goes to show how much I abhor early entry shenanigans.
I will admit, that the mechanics of Faith Magic do fully work. Without me being overly fastidious about the reading of "spells" in the prerequisites solely out of spite, Faith Magic should legit work.
Keep the prerequisites the same, and do not allow early entry of any sort. In fact, if we are going to change the prerequisites, at all, it should be to make it require 5 ranks in each Knowledge skill... now all early entry shenanigans can GTFOH.
Make Mystic Theurge better... make it worth playing all the way through.
Give Mystic Theurge a "Talents" feature where the player can choose to progress class features of either previous class... not unlike the Noble Scion's Dilettante Studies or Mortal Usher's Mortal Talents feature. That way you do not literally give up everything except your spellcasting.
Or just flat out allow Mystic Thrurge levels to advance class features of previous classes at 1/2 rate... So ten levels of Mystic Theurge would advance both your Cleric and Wizard each five levels for their classes' features other than spellcasting. Then items and feats that make you count as "X" levels higher become that much more valuable, because you can almost pull off everything a full level single class can do. And that is nice. Or would be if Mystic Theurge wasn't such garbage in its current state.
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1/2 class progression sounds like a great way to improve the value of MT… though it would likely change the entire dynamic of the prestige class and what classes are best to go into it… suddenly feature heavy 6th level casters would be far more appealing with MT, and feature sparse classes (such as wizard) would be undesirable with MT.
Keep the prerequisites the same, and do not allow early entry of any sort. In fact, if we are going to change the prerequisites, at all, it should be to make it require 5 ranks in each Knowledge skill... now all early entry shenanigans can GTFOH.
I would support adding the requirements of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion or Nature) to be 5 ranks in each, ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, AND a minimum caster level of 3 in order to take levels in the Mystic Theurge class. Admittedly, this only helps casters get in sooner (by one level for prepared casters and up to three levels by spontaneous) and eliminates early entry shenanigans.
Make Mystic Theurge better... make it worth playing all the way through...
...Or would be if Mystic Theurge wasn't such garbage in its current state.
I can't agree with you here, sadly. Mystic Theurges require a fairly specific playstyle in which to function properly. It is not for everyone and if it was made MORE powerful, it would simply attract those looking to abuse the mechanics it offers.
That being said, there are three very specific changes I would make to the class if given the opportunity. First, it would be 14 level prestige class rather than 10 levels. Second, Combined Spells would progress up to 7th level. And third, you'd get Spell Synthesis at 4th level, 9th level and 14th level (one use each time).
This is done just to make the Mystic Theurge more of what it already is, not focus on where each individual theurge came from. They walk a very specific path.
Yeah, sorry about that. Reasons like this are why I never really got around to doing my own thing on the Mystic Theurge. Apologies for the derailment.
What derailment? It is perfectly on-topic. Indeed, IluzryMage's insistence in the guide that the early entrance things totally work (and later on the passive-aggressive "some people dislike early entry because of hurt feelings" accusation) makes discussing it all the more important, lest people believe something that's false.
Any serious guide writer should welcome people working towards correcting errors in their guides. This here is supposed to be a "Guide to the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge", but right now it's more of a "guide to the game-losely-based-on-Pathfinder MT".
It is quite petty of me, indeed, to argue the plural of 2nd-level spells mentioned as being prerequisite.
It goes against explicit, official statement.
It is not for everyone and if it was made MORE powerful, it would simply attract those looking to abuse the mechanics it offers.
MT is one of those things that are virtually impossible to balance. In Pathfinder, prestige classes are supposed to be only useful for extreme niche builds, so everything that makes it an attractive options for 'mainstream builds' would break design principles. Second problem is that MT makes one of the worst possible class designs, i.e. the extreme focus on a single class feature (spells), that Paizo completely moved away from, even worse. Third problem is that MT has zero reasons to exist in Pathfinder because it's supposed niche ("[blur] the line between divine and arcane" ) doesn't exist in Pathfinder - stuff like domain spells and bloodline spells made the alleged divide between arcane and divine spells barely existent in the CRB, and later options like Lore Shaman spirit (can cast every single Wizard spell) and Spell Sage Wizard (can cast every single Cleric spell) completely shatter it.
you'd get Spell Synthesis at 4th level, 9th level and 14th level (one use each time).
So, what taking Lesser Spell Synthesis does?
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Yeah, sorry about that. Reasons like this are why I never really got around to doing my own thing on the Mystic Theurge. Apologies for the derailment.What derailment? It is perfectly on-topic. Indeed, IluzryMage's insistence in the guide that the early entrance things totally work (and later on the passive-aggressive "some people dislike early entry because of hurt feelings" accusation) makes discussing it all the more important, lest people believe something that's false.
Arguing over whether or not an early entry mechanic is 'legal' or 'valid' belongs in the Rules forum. That is all I meant by the thread being derailed. People's feelings on the matter (including my own) are irrelevant.
Any serious guide writer should welcome people working towards correcting errors in their guides. This here is supposed to be a "Guide to the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge", but right now it's more of a "guide to the game-losely-based-on-Pathfinder MT".
I agree, correction is most welcome. It is the arguments and misplaced passive-agressive comments that are not welcome (not that I am accusing YOU of doing that, just making a general statement). Some people simply do not want to deal with the inevitable flood of such comments, and I speak for myself in this regard, because we've expended all our patience on the subject from countless threads we've seen and participated in on the matter.
I agree. As far as I am concerned (or aware of), Faith Magic is THE ONLY valid means of entry into the Mystic Theurge class with only a single level in a divine casting class. The only other that comes close is through a Spirit Whisperer Wizard with Arcane Enlightenment, and even that one is sketchy though RAW legal.
MT is one of those things that are virtually impossible to balance. In Pathfinder, prestige classes are supposed to be only useful for extreme niche builds, so everything that makes it an attractive options for 'mainstream builds' would break design principles.
I've always been one to move against the 'mainstream builds' and undervalue their basic design principles. While mathematically superior on paper, they appeal to a different audience than myself.
Second problem is that MT makes one of the worst possible class designs, i.e. the extreme focus on a single class feature (spells), that Paizo completely moved away from, even worse.
Key words: "moved away from". Yes, Pathfinder found fairly good success with their focus on archetypes and not on prestige classes. That is one decision that I applaud them for and quite enjoy. But the Mystic Theurge is a relic of D&D history, going as far back as multiclassing in AD&D between a wizard and cleric. Two separate classes, two separate spell lists, slower level progression compared to single classed wizards or clerics.
I like the Mystic Theurge because of what it is and that it flies in the face of the commonly accepted standards and expectations. I've played them several times.
Third problem is that MT has zero reasons to exist in Pathfinder because it's supposed niche ("[blur] the line between divine and arcane" 3.5 DMG pg. 192) doesn't exist in Pathfinder - stuff like domain spells and bloodline spells made the alleged divide between arcane and divine spells barely existent in the CRB, and later options like Lore Shaman spirit (can cast every single Wizard spell) and Spell Sage Wizard (can cast every single Cleric spell) completely shatter it.
The Mystic Theurge exists in Pathfinder because, believe it or not, people like myself exist and like to play them. Just because someone else can do a similar thing with less effort and sacrifice does not invalidate the existence or effectiveness of a Mystic Theurge. A Lore Spirit Shaman is limited in what they can cast and have access to at one time in a very different way than a Mystic Theurge. And a Spell Sage can, indeed, cast any cleric spell they want to but they tend to take a very, VERY long time to do it which limits their functional use of the cleric list.
Just to clear the air, I am not attempting to be combative or argumentative. I am simply being contrary to established norms and playing devil's advocate. I wouldn't have created such an expansive google sheet ranking the possible combinations of full spellcasters to maximize your enjoyment of playing a Mystic Theurge, if I didn't have an investment in the prestige class.
So, what taking Lesser Spell Synthesis does?
Oh, would you look at that! A book I am not familiar with and an ability that I fully approve of! Yes, just like that. But built into the class, not in a feat form.
1/2 class progression sounds like a great way to improve the value of MT… though it would likely change the entire dynamic of the prestige class and what classes are best to go into it… suddenly feature heavy 6th level casters would be far more appealing with MT, and feature sparse classes (such as wizard) would be undesirable with MT.
Actually, I like this idea, although the particular numbers probably need tweaking to make it come out right, and this by itself wouldn't solve the problem of being initially underpowered (for your total level) and then gradually getting better until you get overpowered.
If you got the balance right on the above idea (which, as noted intermediate above, would take some additional different tweaking), this would make it one of VERY few prestige classes that works properly for 6/9 spellcasting base classes without being overpowered for 9/9 spellcasting base classes. Of course, given the intermediate problem above, that's a big IF. Might be easier to solve by making a base class that blends 2 spellcasting classes and has 2 spell lists and 2 sets of spell slots out of the box.
DeathlessOne, did you ever decide whether you wanted to start a separate discussion thread for the impressive spreadsheets of Mystic Theurge combinations?
for the impressive spreadsheets of Mystic Theurge combinations?
Too bad it is the spreadsheets, themselves, that are impressive... not the Mystic Theuge combinations they contain.
If, and it is an "if", any impressive Mystic Theurge combinations do actually exist, I am sure the list of said combinations would be quite short and unimpressive, itself.
I know that Nyrissa from Kingmaker should absolutely NOT be used as an example of impressive Mystic Theurge combinations, because impressive Nyrissa is not. But it should certainly be noted that using monsters that have racial spellcasting is probably the best way to use Mystic Theurge... Nymphs cast as 7th-level Druids, so you only need to add your arcane spellcasting levels, then Mystic Theurge levels.
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for the impressive spreadsheets of Mystic Theurge combinations?
Too bad it is the spreadsheets, themselves, that are impressive... not the Mystic Theuge combinations they contain.
If, and it is an "if", any impressive Mystic Theurge combinations do actually exist, I am sure the list of said combinations would be quite short and unimpressive, itself.
I know that Nyrissa from Kingmaker should absolutely NOT be used as an example of impressive Mystic Theurge combinations, because impressive Nyrissa is not. But it should certainly be noted that using monsters that have racial spellcasting is probably the best way to use Mystic Theurge... Nymphs cast as 7th-level Druids, so you only need to add your arcane spellcasting levels, then Mystic Theurge levels.
NPC/monster creation follows a different standard than your typical PCs though… an NPC needs only be impressive in a single encounter. Even if the NPC is reoccurring, they don’t need to have all the same build necessities as a standard PC. So an archetype or prC that is considered “bad” for a player might be amazing for an NPC. You might be surprised how much a “bad” archetype or prC can improve an NPC. Infact I am under the strict belief that many of them were written expressly for NPC usage and never truly intended for player characters… MT on an NPC can be absolutely amazing and even seen as overpowered since generally the class abilities that don’t get progressed are of little or no use to an NPC.
^ . . . And of course if the prestige class/etc. makes them underpowered, you (as the GM or AP writer) can just overlevel them a bit to compensate, to make a really interesting opponent.
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DeathlessOne, did you ever decide whether you wanted to start a separate discussion thread for the impressive spreadsheets of Mystic Theurge combinations?
Oh, yes. I certainly decided that I want to do so. I simply have let myself get distracted and not polished up the last few bits that I want to make shine just yet. Specifically, I want to get the 'possible builds' to about 85% (hehehe) completion before I feel comfortable calling it anywhere near 'adequate'.
Though... One thing I am stuck on is naming the damn thing. It is not a 'guide' in the typical fashion. And calling it "DeathlessOne's Art of (War) Building a Mystic Theurge" doesn't seem to fit well. Any thoughts?
Too bad it is the spreadsheets, themselves, that are impressive... not the Mystic Theuge combinations they contain.
Hmm. Might I ask what it is about the combinations (incomplete as they are) in the spreadsheet that are lacking impressiveness? They are not, admittedly, a full level 20 spread of maximizing the potential of the Mystic Theurge because they are not designed to be so. Any feats or other choices you can make with a full caster generally applies to any Mystic Theurge build, and while they won't be as effective as on a single classed build, they have the same general result if expected level variation is accounted for and expected.
If, and it is an "if", any impressive Mystic Theurge combinations do actually exist, I am sure the list of said combinations would be quite short and unimpressive, itself.
Hmm. I have to ask... by what measure are you judging the impressiveness of the Mystic Theurge? Because, it if is against ANY single one of the full casting classes, you are using the wrong measuring stick.
I know that Nyrissa from Kingmaker should absolutely NOT be used as an example of impressive Mystic Theurge combinations, because impressive Nyrissa is not. But it should certainly be noted that using monsters that have racial spellcasting is probably the best way to use Mystic Theurge... Nymphs cast as 7th-level Druids, so you only need to add your arcane spellcasting levels, then Mystic Theurge levels.
Are you talking about the NPC from the Kingmaker Adventure path or the video game? I am not familiar with the Adventure path, so I can't speak knowledgeably on that, and if its the video game... well, that's not the same game we are playing with TTRPG Pathfinder.
Honestly, I don't think spellcasting, alone, is enough to make anything all that impressive. You have spells, so what? There is nothing impressive about that other than the volume of spells you might have or have access to. Again, so what?
You have reduced not just one class, but two separate classes, down to a single component of each class... and the individual components of each class you are left with are so similar they might as well be the same, themselves... spellcasting.
In my opinion, there are absolutely no combinations where you gain more than you lose. The class features you give up may not be epic powerful, but they add flavor and options to a class that would otherwise just be spellcasting... take those features away, and you are left with just spellcasting. Every single Mystic Theurge combination involves ruining two otherwise fine classes. Is that not just boring and sad?
Obviously, I do not value spellcasting, alone, as enough to make a playable character. I want tools and features that I can customize and use to create a unique and flavorful character that offers me exciting roleplay opportunities. Spellcasting? Cool story, bro, where's the rest of it? I need more than that. There has got to be more, right?
By the way, Nyrissa is the BBEG in the Kingmaker AP... I know nothing about the video game other than it kept polluting my searches for Kingmaker AP stuff. I hate the video game simply because of how many [A LOT] of my searches came up with stupid video game BS when I was searching for stuff from the AP. I will probably never run any AP that has a video game version simply to avoid that annoying BS in the future. Lol.
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Honestly, I don't think spellcasting, alone, is enough to make anything all that impressive. You have spells, so what? There is nothing impressive about that other than the volume of spells you might have or have access to. Again, so what?
You have reduced not just one class, but two separate classes, down to a single component of each class... and the individual components of each class you are left with are so similar they might as well be the same, themselves... spellcasting.
So, you are judging them by their full casting parent classes. I can, and easily do, acknowledge that multiclassing two full casters is a downgrade in their overall performance but the Mystic Theurge makes no promises about making your character MORE powerful. It is literally plain to see just looking at the class progression table.
In my opinion, there are absolutely no combinations where you gain more than you lose. The class features you give up may not be epic powerful, but they add flavor and options to a class that would otherwise just be spellcasting... take those features away, and you are left with just spellcasting. Every single Mystic Theurge combination involves ruining two otherwise fine classes. Is that not just boring and sad?
It is neither boring nor sad. Perhaps you haven't come across some of the very interesting combination available to a Mystic Theurge that makes clever use of its parent classes unique abilities? I even mention in my 'guide' that spell access and spell casting does not itself make a more powerful Mystic Theurge.
Obviously, I do not value spellcasting, alone, as enough to make a playable character. I want tools and features that I can customize and use to create a unique and flavorful character that offers me exciting roleplay opportunities. Spellcasting? Cool story, bro, where's the rest of it? I need more than that. There has got to be more, right?
The Mystic Theurge is a prestige class that does not appeal to everyone. I fully understand when something is mechanically boring, because I sincerely dislike the Cleric class due to that same reason. But my perspective is not focused on what spells the Mystic Theurges gets me. My perspective is on their parent classes abilities, and the possible combinations of their abilities, while I let the Mystic Theurge levels handle keeping the spellcasting somewhat relevant to the level of play. You are right. Spellcasting is great. What else ya got? This is why my guide exists.
By the way, Nyrissa is the BBEG in the Kingmaker AP... I know nothing about the video game other than it kept polluting my searches for Kingmaker AP stuff. I hate the video game simply because of how many [A LOT] of my searches came up with stupid video game BS when I was searching for stuff from the AP. I will probably never run any AP that has a video game version simply to avoid that annoying BS in the future. Lol.
Gotta tighten your search strings, my friend. You can blacklist certain search results (if you use google) with a simple + or - sign.
Oh, yes. I certainly decided that I want to do so. I simply have let myself get distracted and not polished up the last few bits that I want to make shine just yet. Specifically, I want to get the 'possible builds' to about 85% (hehehe) completion before I feel comfortable calling it anywhere near 'adequate'.DeathlessOne, did you ever decide whether you wanted to start a separate discussion thread for the impressive spreadsheets of Mystic Theurge combinations?
I thought it WAS well over 85% complete. Okay, now you've got me curious as to what is coming next in this project.
[Though... One thing I am stuck on is naming the damn thing. It is not a 'guide' in the typical fashion. And calling it "DeathlessOne's Art of
{. . .}(War)Building a Mystic Theurge" doesn't seem to fit well. Any thoughts?
Actually, "DeathlessOne's Art of (War) Building a Mystic Theurge" sounds quite fitting to me.
I thought it WAS well over 85% complete. Okay, now you've got me curious as to what is coming next in this project.
I am simply too damn ambitious for my own good. I got a weird idea to plot out the spell progressions of the different combinations of parents classes and compare them with a single classed spell caster. And maybe creating a custom 20-level 'class' table for each of my 'focused' builds. I've mostly done that with the Crossblooded Empyreal/Solar Sorcerer paired with an Unsworn Shaman. For instance, around level 10 is when such a character is slinging nearly the same number of spells per day as averaged between a single classed sorcerer or shaman. And it quickly ramps up from there.
What does that matter when they don't have the same level of spell access? Well, one thing is that they greatly benefit more from metamagic reduction techniques (and similar abilities) than other single classed character, the higher level they get. More spells per day means more nova potential, and with the inclusion of Lesser Spell Synthesis, it means you can get a rod of quicken lesser and blast out three spells in a round without blinking, or seriously consuming all your spells for the day.
I might be getting in over my head with it. Should probably finish out the Build combo page short descriptions first. Have this tendency to hyperfocus once an idea gets in my head though.
Actually, "DeathlessOne's Art of(War)Building a Mystic Theurge" sounds quite fitting to me.
Eh? Really? Sounded a bit over the top in my head. Hmm...
Simplify a bit:
"DeathlessOne's Art of(War)Theurgery"
Hmm... "DeathlessOne's Art of War Theurgery".
I like that. Thanks, pad300. I'll probably tack on a subtitle, but that's a good start.
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And calling it "DeathlessOne's Art of(War)Building a Mystic Theurge" doesn't seem to fit well. Any thoughts?
"Demystifying the Mystic Theurge"?
Arguing over whether or not an early entry mechanic is 'legal' or 'valid' belongs in the Rules forum.
But arguing whether a part of a guide follows the rules surely belongs in the discussion thread of said guide, doesn't it?
But the Mystic Theurge is a relic of D&D history (...) I like the Mystic Theurge because of what it is
- If "it feeds my nostalgia" is the selling point, why would it need a buff?
My list of problems wasn't a "why you should not play an MT" but rather "what to be aware of if you want to homebrew an MT improvement".
A Lore Spirit Shaman is limited in what they can cast and have access to at one time in a very different way than a Mystic Theurge. And a Spell Sage can, indeed, cast any cleric spell they want to but they tend to take a very, VERY long time to do it which limits their functional use of the cleric list.
Not the point. I didn't use them as examples of archetypes similar to the MT, but rather as examples of how there is no "line between divine and arcane". Paizo actually adjusted the flavor of the MT for Pathfinder to focus less on arcane/divine and more on "learn from different sources", but it's still not in a good place.
I wonder if having earlier entry, but halved the number of spell slots for each side wouldn't work much better. Oh, and it should let you chose between two out of three of arcane, divine, and psychic.
Folks are rules lawyering with great fury. But who are you trying to convince?
Other people reading the thread. False information shouldn't ever be left unchallenged, lest people believe it.
"Demystifying the Mystic Theurge"?
"DeathlessOne's Art of Theurgery: Demystifying the Mystic Theurge" - That has a very nice ring to it. A thanks to you as well!
But arguing whether a part of a guide follows the rules surely belongs in the discussion thread of said guide, doesn't it?
I would agree that it does have a place in the discussion thread, though how much is up to debate (ha!). Provided a proper disclaimer is provided by the Guide author as to the legality of whatever early entry mechanic is being (ab)used, I see no real issue. I guess I'll leave all that up to the author in question as to how much they want in their discussion thread.
If "it feeds my nostalgia" is the selling point, why would it need a buff? My list of problems wasn't a "why you should not play an MT" but rather "what to be aware of if you want to homebrew an MT improvement".
I honestly don't think the Mystic Theurge actually needs a 'buff'. From my experiences with the prestige class, it does just fine on its own the longer and longer it survives and gains levels. It is its own gatekeeper. It takes a considerable amount of system mastery in order to use the Mystic Theurge to its full potential. Let that be its own reward.
Not the point. I didn't use them as examples of archetypes similar to the MT, but rather as examples of how there is no "line between divine and arcane". Paizo actually adjusted the flavor of the MT for Pathfinder to focus less on arcane/divine and more on "learn from different sources", but it's still not in a good place.
Ah, then I misunderstood your point. I still disagree to a point but that might just be nostalgia and bias talking.
I wonder if having earlier entry, but halved the number of spell slots for each side wouldn't work much better. Oh, and it should let you chose between two out of three of arcane, divine, and psychic.
Halving the spell slots (min 1 for each side) would be a fairly interesting adjustment. Though it would incentivize using classes that get bonus slots due to domains or spell specializations (the wizard/cleric supremacy rears its head again).
As for blending arcane, divine, and/or psychic magic... D&D 3.5e had similar prestige classes that were also called 'Theurges' but their names varied for their combination style. They weren't terrible but suffered from the same stigma as the normal Mystic Theurge.
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Hi as the guide author i would like less of this because really its just going in circles and i've already addressed both arguements in my guide.
Hey, IluzryMage. I was reviewing your guide again and had the thought: In your "Class Options' section where you state "Rather than list out every single combination that you could possibly do...", would you be interested in linking to my guide? You can say something along the lines that 'most of that work has already been done in this other guide'. It might even fit in your Anti-Early Entry section as well. I'd be more than willing to provide a link to your guide in my 'Early Entry Shenanigans' section.
I'd be happy to do a trade. I think it'd make sense to have a link to an up to date guide for people who don't want to do early entry, and you have some really good stuff in yours. I was actually thinking about this earlier!
Most excellent! I've update my guide with a link to yours. We might disagree on the best approach to the Mystic Theurge but I am thrilled we can work together to help everyone else out.
Oh, and I saw some information in your guide about Variant Bloodlines for the Draconic Bloodline that I missed in my own review. I've added a ranking for them in my guide. Good stuff.
I could really use some clarification on your early entry.
If I am getting this correct, you are saying, take 2 levels of your primary caster, 1 level of your secondary caster, pick up the equipment trick feat at level 3, and then MT at 4?
Can Evangelist (PrC) scale Mystic Theurge?
I ask because many boons scale off of Hit Dice, making it a powerful option
Can Evangelist (PrC) scale Mystic Theurge?
I ask because many boons scale off of Hit Dice, making it a powerful option
This is my idea
Divine Paragon (Tsukiyo) 2 - Picking up Exalted Boons
Equipment Trick (Sun Rod) - Early entry (But delayed by 1 level)
Empyreal Sorcerer 1 - Keeping it wisdom
Mystic Theurge @Level 5
Evangelist 10 from Level 6 to 15 - Picking up Evangelist Boons & most importantly Collective Vision.
Then play as a Halfling with Swift as Shadows, and Hellcat Stealth
Resulting in a character whose two top things scale off of Character level
OUTLINE
Race: Halfling (Swift as Shadows)
Class: Cleric 3+/Empyreal Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10
Archetype: Divine Paragon + Empyreal Wildblooded
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 10-2:8
Dex: 14+2:16
Cons: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 18: 18
Cha: 8+2:10
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4, 8,12,16,20 - WIS
TRAITS
Outlander: Missionary (Campaign: X)
Reactionary (Combat)
Magical Knack: Cleric) (Magic)
TBD (Drawback)
FAITH
Deity: Tsukiyo
Domain: Madness
FEATS
1 – Cleric – Level – Skill Focus (Stealth)
1 – Cleric – Bonus – Deific Obedience
3 – Cleric – Level – Equipment Trick: Sunrod
4 – Sorcerer – Bonus - Eschew Materials
5 – Mystic Theurge – Level - Improved Initiative
6 – Evangelist (PrC)
7 - Evangelist (PrC) - Level - Hellcat Stealth
9 - Evangelist (PrC) - Level - Dampening Presence
11 - Evangelist (PrC) - Level - Divine Interference
13 - Evangelist (PrC) - Level - Quicken Spell
15 - Evangelist (PrC) - Level - TBD
OVERVIEW
Tsukiyos 2nd evangelist boon 'Collective Vision' (Gained at level 11) is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and most importantly it scales off of HD. Mystic Theurge's genuinely seem to struggle in the DC department, but by pairing that with Collective Visions and treating it as a one-two punch similar to Witches, in theory should resolve that. In addition it should allow some of the lower level Sorcerer spells to stay relevant.
Secondly, it uses another character level scaling mechanic, skill points, specifically stealth. Stealth allows the flimsy Mystic Theurge to stay out of trouble
Thirdly, at level 15 instead of the usual Spell Perfection, gaining Spiritual Form for +4 sacred bonus to Wisdom is a very powerful buff
Finally, writing a spellcaster without Spell Focus I&II, Three Metamagic Feats, and Spell Perfection, is very refreshing.
There we have it. All theory, but I would love to hear some thoughts
Can Evangelist (PrC) scale Mystic Theurge?
I ask because many boons scale off of Hit Dice, making it a powerful option
This is my idea
Divine Paragon (Tsukiyo) 2 - Picking up Exalted Boons
Equipment Trick (Sun Rod) - Early entry (But delayed by 1 level)
Empyreal Sorcerer 1 - Keeping it wisdom
Mystic Theurge @Level 5
Evangelist 10 from Level 6 to 15 - Picking up Evangelist Boons & most importantly Collective Vision.Then play as a Halfling with Swift as Shadows, and Hellcat Stealth
Resulting in a character whose two top things scale off of Character level
The answer is a strong maybe in my opinion based solely on whether you consider prestige classes to be a type of class (like base or hybrid) or if they are a seperate entity altogether.
I'd say, talk to your DM, because its not a bad idea.
Seems overpowered -- I'd be inclined to disallow the Evangelist prestige class to progress another prestige class(*), although I can't find anything that specifically disallows this. On the other hand, I would allow Prestigious Spellcaster to work with Evangelist even though Rules As Written it technically won't work, since Evangelist doesn't have the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" text (it has Aligned Class instead) -- seems like Rules As Intended, this should work to progress the spellcasting at Evangelist level 1.
(*)Although I have to admit, this would be a flavorful special benefit exclusive to Mystic Theurge/Evangelists of Nethys.