I like the Inventor with Weapon innovationbut there is something that I don't know if it's intended or maybe I am missing something.
You have to slect intelligence as class hability, but you must attack with STR or DEX, it means that he will always fight with -1 compared with every other character or -2 if u compare with Fighter or GUslinger.
¿Do he have something to compensate this like Investigator does, or am I missing something?
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A lot of players believe starting with a 16 in one's attack stat suffices. I balk at agreeing, but at levels 5-9 and 15-19, one can get the same bonus that those who started with an 18.
So it's more comparable to being -1/2 behind a normal martial.
From there, the classes get another bonus.
For Fighters & Gunslingers, it's more proficiency. For Barbarians it's Rage damage, Rogues gets Sneak Attack, Rangers get Hunter's Edge, etc.
It's not always in the form of damage; Champions get more defense and some other tricks as do Outwit Rangers.
The questions then are what is the Inventor getting as their bonus?
And does that make up for being behind 1/2 on their attack stat?
(And for its 8 h.p./level!)
Whether Inventor balances when including all the other things it can do that other martials can't depends on how much one values all those other things Inventors can do, like make a unique weapon. But yeah, if you want to play a straightforward martial PC, other classes do it better because they have the basic math. It would've been boring if Inventor had followed that same math-path because then it'd have been limited on its breadth and tricks. It couldn't have the same math that makes a Fighter special AND more too.
ETA: Which is all to say, yes, it's intended. It's an obvious choice on Paizo's part. It puts Inventors in the same place as Warpriests (though those guys paid a steep price for their spells).
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Inventor is pretty much balanced (in my opinion).
In terms of damage, you are very close to a Fighter with the same weapon. It's true that you have this awful effect where during half of your levels you are very close to a Fighter damage output and during half of your level you are closer to 15% weaker, but averaged on your whole carreer you are at 10% weaker roughly.
In my opinion, it's a very balanced class. It doesn't sit with the tier S classes, but it's largely on par with Barbarian, Swashbuckler and such.
As a side note, unlike Rage, Overload can be used outside combat to start fights overloaded (and even critically overloaded when you are pretty sure there's a fight on the other side of the door). If you never start your fights overloaded, you lose a lot of power (or actions during first round).
Yeah I didn't realize you could use Overdrive in anticipation of an upcoming fight either. That's pretty cool.
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I'll soon start to play my Inventor, but when looking at the class, I realized it's a gem. I don't know why people don't speak much about it, because I find it well balanced, with its niche and some unique abilities (PF2 level of unique abilities, so nothing that would blow your mind but still things you can't get otherwise).
You could always dump cha and Wis to 8 and start with 18 in both are and int too.
Fits the crazy inventor stereotype too :-p
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This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
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This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
Not really on any counts. The inventor and alchemist occupy very different design space. The inventor is a true martial and has no spellcasting analog like the alchemist does.
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This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
No way, Inventor is designed far better than Alchemist.
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This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
If needing to key int instead of str/dex is to rein in power, then its the jankiest form of power rein in i’ve ever seen because it only applies for half the levels. Is the inventor just broken at 5-9 and 15-19 then?
Personally I think Int used to, or perhaps is intended to, play a much larger part of the inventor’s chassis than it currently does. It barely uses int that much - similar to the alchemist. The alchemist probably uses int more, in fact.
The inventor only needs it for a) +1 to overdrive check, and +1 to damage at level 1-4 and 20 on successful overdrive, b) their whole one unstable action per combat until 14 and even then only if you choose to invest in using unstable.
Meanwhile striking is what they do most of the time…
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Not really on any counts. The inventor and alchemist occupy very different design space. The inventor is a true martial and has no spellcasting analog like the alchemist does.This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
I think that the point is that the tone of the argument is the same.
Oh, woe is my poor Weapon Inventor. When they use their Devastating Weaponry to hit every enemy in their ZIP code, they only add an extra +1 to attack and +8 to damage from the sweep and forceful traits... on their Greatsword.
Oh, we're doing a ritual/downtime tomorrow? I guess they'll switch their Innovation for a construct... that's legendary in as many skills as the Rogue.
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This thread is just going to end up like the Great Alchemist Debate threads.
Inventors sacrifice power for versatility, and not everyone's going to understand/appreciate versatility. Just go back through the past 2 years of alchemist threads and Ctrl-H "alchemist" into "inventor".
I think the comparison between Alchemist and Inventor is off. The Alchemist is a caster/martial hybrid, as Alchemy is far closer to spells than to martial abilities. The Inventor is a martial with multi-target abilities. I wouldn't call it a caster. It's the multi-target martial, roughly.
Also, dropping Int on an Alchemist is clearly a thing if you go Strength or Dexterity/Strength hybrid. The Inventor has no need of being a hybrid, as high Intelligence increases your damage as much (and even more on ranged weapons) than high Strength, so a Dexterity Inventor is automatically a switch hitter.
Dropping Int on an Inventor is not that bad but it has no point in my opinion. If you want to play a Strength or Dexterity based martial, you have a lot of choice. You play an Inventor because you want to play a martial with high Intelligence who actually gets something out of its high Intelligence.
I was thinking in making a quick guide like I did for the Swashbuckler, as the Inventor is a complex class with many gems (and even in my opinion some options that are slightly out of bounds). If I find some time I'll do it.
Also, even if Sagiam example is a high level one and as such one you can't reproduce easily, I think the Inventor is a pretty well balanced class. It has high damage output (on par with Fighter, Barbarian and Rogue), crazy good feats, average defenses (unless you go armor). It's only drawback is the lack of a built in reaction and the very first levels that are a bit hard (still not Swashbuckler hard). But from level 5 onwards it's one of the most solid martial of the game.
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I think that the point is that the tone of the argument is the same.
At least one person gets it.
I'd be a little more unnecessarily inflammatory and put a few "wah wah wah" in there for added snark. "Wah wah wah, the alchemist inventor isn't as good of a fighter as a fighter is. Wah wah wah, this class sucks and needs to be redesigned."
I mean, maybe the class sucks, but I don't see evidence of that in this thread. Imma build one and report back in 6-9 months.
I think Inventor is fine. I prefer having Strength or Dex for key ability instead of Intelligence, cuz the class hardly uses Int at all, but that's a pretty minor quibble.
Alchemist otoh, is a complete disaster. Especially the Mutagenist.
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I think Inventor is fine. I prefer having Strength or Dex for key ability instead of Intelligence, cuz the class hardly uses Int at all, but that's a pretty minor quibble.
Alchemist otoh, is a complete disaster. Especially the Mutagenist.
Where is the variant rule to allow you to freely choose your class prime ability score, instead of being locked into a poor choice?
I prefer having Strength or Dex for key ability instead of Intelligence, cuz the class hardly uses Int at all, but that's a pretty minor quibble.
Exactly.
If you want the class to be better, complain about actual problems, not weird cosmetic issues.
People whined about alchemist running out of reagents, Paizo sighed and gave everyone the 3 items/reagent feat. People whined about armor profiency so now alchemists have medium armor. The alchemist hasn't improved much because people have been wasting the limited number of revisions Paizo is willing to make on trivial and frivolous requests.
Don't let that happen to inventor.
Every time a new class comes out, people measure its DPR and compare it to a fighter, and then complain that it's not doing enough damage. It's very counterproductive.
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Don't let that happen to inventor.
But the Inventor is fine. The class is solid, unlike the Alchemist class which has a lot of weird and badly written ability. And the power level of the Inventor is also fine. And it has it's niche. And it's quite flavorful. I really think Paizo nailed it with the Inventor.
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I just created a Hobgoblin Inventor with the armor innovation and he has doing pretty well. Overdrive and explode are both go a long way.
And I think Int works as the key ability because you can blow yourself up with failed crafting rolls.
Being 1 point behind every so often should not be that big a deal I think. Specially with only doing 1 attack a round. Dont forget there are ways to get more to attacks. Pick up Marshal and get +1 status to attacks in an aura if you feel the need to bump it up.
That wouldn't really change anything.
It would be like comparing an inventor with the marshal +1 status with a champion with the marshal +1 status.
The gap would remain the same.
Talking about the megaton strike, does having the weapon as invention force you into always taking the unstable trait? or it's a choice to use an empowered version of the megaton strike?
As usual for Power Attack, Megaton Strike does less damage than 2 Strikes. With the Unstable bonus, it deals similar damage. I don't understand why someone would pick it up. There are way better uses of Unstable.
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I haven't seen that it was not increasing your MAP twice, so it's actually useful. And I understand the use of Unstable at low level, as you only have Explode for an alternative.
Well, not the greatest feat ever, but it's true there is not much competition at level 4.
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Just created a Goblin Inventor for an upcoming game. Going ranged but cant decide between a Handcrossbow or a Taw Launcher (Deep Background Approved by GM).
I went repeating hand crossbow and it works well. Taw Launcher would do well too.
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I think the biggest flaw with Inventor is that Intelligence really doesn't do much for them. There's Overdrive, and that's basically it. To me, Overdrive isn't nearly as good as a maxed out Strength would be.
Of course, that's another issue with Inventor: why do they need to be so strong? They're basically using machines to fight for them, whether it's power armor, an uber weapon, or a robot buddy. I really think they should've used Int for attack and damage, and linked Overdrive to some other skill/ability, or even dumped Overdrive altogether.
I still think Inventor is very cool, but I do question some of these decisions.
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I think the biggest flaw with Inventor is that Intelligence really doesn't do much for them. There's Overdrive, and that's basically it. To me, Overdrive isn't nearly as good as a maxed out Strength would be.
Of course, that's another issue with Inventor: why do they need to be so strong? They're basically using machines to fight for them, whether it's power armor, an uber weapon, or a robot buddy. I really think they should've used Int for attack and damage, and linked Overdrive to some other skill/ability, or even dumped Overdrive altogether.
I still think Inventor is very cool, but I do question some of these decisions.
Not all Inventors should need strength, but some should. An Inventor who's main thing is whacking people with a powered hammer should definitely be strong imo.
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Maybe, though "inventor who uses their gadgetry and knowledge to supplement their physical deficiencies" via modified weapons or power armor etc. is a really common fictional trope, with characters who are built more like wizards than fighters... but the PF2 iteration of the class doesn't really accommodate that and expects your character to be very physically adept.
Mechanically it's fine, but like I said I can see why that might not be the fantasy some people were hoping for.
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Intelligence is also used for Reconfigure checks, which hopefully they will be using quite often (as it is one of the class's big advantages.) But that ability will see huge variation from campaign to campaign.
There's also Repair, which is important if you're using shields or constructs.
Classes like this do feel like they limit ancestry choice. Because you need to max two stats you have to play something that gets an inherent boost to at least one of those stats. Dwarven inventors need to take an optional flaw if they want 16/18 in to hit/int.
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Of course, that's another issue with Inventor: why do they need to be so strong?
They don't. You can play a 10 Strength Inventor with 16 Strength in his Power Armor. The game doesn't care about the source of your power.
But having an Inventor in Power Armor who can't lift a small boulder because he has 10 Strength, that would be a big issue. Attacking with Intelligence would create a whole lot of extra problems. The Inventor, once in his Power Armor, needs to have 16 Strength because he can perform whatever a 16 Strength character can perform.I think the biggest flaw with Inventor is that Intelligence really doesn't do much for them.
Most of your abilities are based on Intelligence. Without it, you are a Barbarian who can't rage.
Intelligence is as important as Strength or Dexterity. I hardly see how I could play an Inventor without 18 starting Intelligence.Intelligence is also used for Reconfigure checks, which hopefully they will be using quite often (as it is one of the class's big advantages.) But that ability will see huge variation from campaign to campaign.
There's also Repair, which is important if you're using shields or constructs.
For me, the biggest Int-based abilities the Inventor has is Explode and Mega/Gigavolt. Being able to make a martial no-MAP attack and a caster AoE spell in one round is what makes the Inventor so strong.
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Sorry, I'm a little confused. Where is the inventor getting 16 strength in their power armor? Is this a roleplay example, or is there something I missed? I thought the "strength" column was how much strength an inventor needs to ignore the armor's penalty.
It's a roleplay example. Your Inventor will always be in its Power Armor during adventuring, so there's no issue considering that its Strength comes from their armor.
You don't have to consider that your Inventor Strength comes from their actual Strength. It can come from its gizmos if you so choose.
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I'm seeing myself using archetypes to suplement the little cracks I see on the class chassis.
If I want to go into melee, I'll use either an Armor or Construct Innovation. Armor if I have other strong frontline characters or Construct if they are also not that good at hitting(Warpriest comes to mind) and I need a flanking buddy.
Them I'll get Dual Weapon Dedication, so I can apply Overdrive damage as much as possible.
For ranged, I'll go with Sniper Duo Dedication and a Composite Short or Longbow, depending on the proeminence of small spaces.
But either option, I fidnd myself needing to invest into Dexterity or Strength to do well in a fight.
I really wanted to be something more like the Summoner and his Eidolon, but instead of Charisma and magic, I want to use Intelligence and gizmos.
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I kind of wish the armor innovation had the comfort trait. One of my players wanted to have his armor built into his body. I handwaved the sleeping issue, because it is a pretty small balance concern. But I think the small buff would have enabled a few more concepts.
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I kind of wish the armor innovation had the comfort trait. One of my players wanted to have his armor built into his body. I handwaved the sleeping issue, because it is a pretty small balance concern. But I think the small buff would have enabled a few more concepts.
You can treat it like the Automaton feat Reinforced Chassis "You can never wear other armor or remove your chassis; however, you still don't become fatigued from sleeping". What's interesting is the Conrasu heritage Rite of Reinforcement as it runs into the same issue: it's exoskeleton is medium armor but it's not given the ability to rest in armor.
I kind of wish the armor innovation had the comfort trait. One of my players wanted to have his armor built into his body. I handwaved the sleeping issue, because it is a pretty small balance concern. But I think the small buff would have enabled a few more concepts.You can treat it like the Automaton feat Reinforced Chassis "You can never wear other armor or remove your chassis; however, you still don't become fatigued from sleeping". What's interesting is the Conrasu heritage Rite of Reinforcement as it runs into the same issue: it's exoskeleton is medium armor but it's not given the ability to rest in armor.
That's pretty much what I'm doing, yes. Although I didn't even point out that was what I was doing. I don't think the player considered the sleeping rule and it wasn't important enough to bring up.
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Don't let that happen to inventor.But the Inventor is fine. The class is solid, unlike the Alchemist class which has a lot of weird and badly written ability. And the power level of the Inventor is also fine. And it has it's niche. And it's quite flavorful. I really think Paizo nailed it with the Inventor.
Agreed. Inventor is one of the coolest martials released. If someone can't find them interesting bc they can't dish out fighter damage then I can't help them.
I've decided to write a small guide for the Inventor as there's currently none, I'll soon make it available.
I was very negative about the Construct at first, but after looking at all the abilities, it seems not that bad at all. I've ended up considering it on par with the other Inventions. As a side note, there's design space for a pure Intelligence Inventor with a Construct Innovation. I don't think it's the best build out there, but you should be competitive during your whole career.
Still not sure whether the inventor could go 1 hand + shield or two hand ( either ranged or melee ), but as always, it's something depends the party composition ( for example, being a 2h martial along with a champion would give you the possibility resist more ).
If you are Strength-based, I'd really go 2-handed for the extra damage. If you are Dexterity-based, the damage difference is really low and going 1-handed becomes easier. The problem is that you don't have much actions left to raise your shield once you start gaining feats and modifications as most of them open special actions. The only good thing is that you don't have any Reaction besides Shield Block, so raising your shield really improves your tankiness.
Fighter is the best, but this comparison belongs to the spellstrike thread.
Fighter is only good at single target damage (and Rogue is very close to it). Besides that and it's overall tankiness, there's nothing Fighter does. I don't think you can compare a class to Fighter unless this class is just about hitting and being hit (like the Barbarian).
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When I was reading the Inventor with the rest of my group of players, there where no complains about the INT bonus part. The problem was the Unstable characteristics. The player that tried Inventor during the playtest was quite down with that changes. I tried to persuade him that it was basically a high risk Focus mechanic. But he said that you can get until 3 focus points, but only 2 unstable (more or less) and specially, there are way too many feats with unstable for something that basically is only 1-battle. And I had to concede the point, honestly.