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All of the other ways are so damn cool, but in comparison Way of the Pistolero still has pretty much all the old problems from the playtest. It is not unplayable or anything, it just seems really ... meh. Ten Paces and Grim Swagger are both awesome, no question, but they are fairly alone in that regard.
(1) Raconteur's Reload
The only Slinger's Reload that becomes essentially useless against an enemy after you use it. Given the number of times you will need to reload against an enemy is considerable, that really hurts. Demoralize literally doesn't do anything after the first try and against repeated Create a Diversion enemies get a +4 bonus. At least the latter can be improved with feats (Lengthy Diversion and Confabulator).
(2) Pistolero's Retort
Still an extremely situational reaction and you get it baked in. This type of reaction is great for a melee weapon and would be for a bow, but the need to have a loaded weapon really hurts your chances. If this would include are reload beforehand or you could draw your backup pistol for it, then sure. But as it stands, you are unlikely to see it more than once per book even if that book actually features significant numbers of ranged enemies.
(3) Pistolero's Challenge + Come at Me!
You, a squishy ranged character, paint a big target on your back for an at best modest amount of additional damage per attack on a class that makes few attacks. And it requires a check with the additional obstacle of the linguistic trait. And, of course, the enemy gets the same bonuses! Just that they likely have the same or higher attack modifier and make more attacks than you. At least it lasts until the end of combat and is really cool flavour-wise, so there is that.
At level 14 (!), you get Come At Me!, which allows you do do that to as many people as you like... for one action each as normal. Just that Pistolero's Challenge has the flourish trait, so beyond doing it before combat, it is basically pointless. Because as a GM, in most cases I would say that insulting the enemy triggers initiative and the last thing you need is more enemies coming for your squishy butt.
So a feat that, with how enemy health scales, does very little for you past level 10 and an upgrade that only really allows you to force your GM to focus you. Hard pass, I'd rather take something like Pistol Twirl + Showstopper and spend an action each round that actually has a perceptible impact.
(4) No clear incentive to use one-handed firearms
Unlike all other ways and the usual one-handed builds, you actually have no real reason to use the weapons it is primarily intended for. The only thing you really lose is the free draw form Ten Paces, but you likely have your weapon out anyway, so that isn't a huge loss. You technically also lose Pistolero's Retort and your way-exclusive feats, but I've already explained why I don't think that that is significant. The rest of Ten Paces, which is the important part, your Slinger's reload and Grim Swagger (it only needs to be worn) are perfectly usable without ever using a one handed weapon.
There is the argument to be made that it allows you to do stuff with your free hand, but since reload allows you to put your hand on the weapon anyway, so that is way less of an issue.
If you use two pistols you find it really difficult to ever do pistolero-specific stuff, and if you take one pistol, you're almost universally worse off than if you took a two-handed gun.
The normal balance between one handed and two handed doesn't really work very well with guns, because you can't really use your free hand for much else because you need to reload. Dual-Weapon Reload and Paired shots lets you fix this, somewhat, but they don't play nice with any other reloads, and are extremely action intensive.
Really, the bonus from singular expertise should increase by one per weapon dice for a pistolero wielding a gun in one hand, with the other hand free. Then you'd be able to play out the fantasy of your subclass, basically a pistol wielding duelist. As it is you gain too little for using pistols as a pistolero vs just using an arquebus or something and either still being a pistolero, or just playing a different subclass.
It's not a HUGE difference, but it's a difference that isn't justified by any additional flexibility, or really much of anything, and that's a bit sad to me, because pistoleros are cool.
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Don't really agree at all. Demoralize is limited, but it's significantly more valuable than Shove and easier to use than Take Cover. Unlike Vanguard or Drifter you also get a choice of two abilities to use it with and aren't stuck incrementing MAP with a potentially subpar activity.
Retort is situational, but extra MAPless attacks are still basically the best thing you can ask for on a martial.
So ultimately what it comes down to is that Challenge isn't a great feat which... yeah fair enough but whatever.
... I mean for the first eight levels of the game the entire Sniper Way is basically 3.5 damage per combat and you don't even get that if you aren't sneaking or can't shoot on your first turn. Pistolero is the clear, clear winner here.
Point 4 is a little strange to me too since all your deeds require a one-handed firearm to work fully except the reload skill. TBH I've even had players specifically complain about that.
It's not a HUGE difference, but it's a difference that isn't justified by any additional flexibility, or really much of anything, and that's a bit sad to me, because pistoleros are cool.
I mean, you're trading like one point of damage per die in exchange for not needing to spend an extra action every time you have to open a door or climb something or use a consumable or anything else.
I guess if all your combats happen in big open spaces and you never use anything it doesn't matter, but even then you're not actually paying very much.
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It's considered the strongest way by a lot of people in the PF2 discord server by having the best generic reload action of all the ways, initiative bonus by default and a decent reaction already baked in.
The dueling pistol does about 80% of the damage that the arquebus does, Now admittedly the arquebus forces and investment in strength too.
The dueling pistol does about 85% of the damage that the two handed a jezail does.
That's obviously considered fine comparing one-hand to two-hand, but I think it's too big a gap especially given that the pistolero offers only a free draw and a reaction that I consider extremely limited (need to have a loaded pistol and be crit-failed against in the same turn, sure it's amazing when it happens, but it'll not happen often).
If a pistolero gave a bump to wielding a one-handed firearm with the other hand free, like many dueling classes do in that set-up, and got the damage to ~90%, I'd be delighted, but I think the numbers are off enough that a pistolero is probably better off not using a pistol.
Shootist's Edge lets the gunslinger ignore second and third range increments at level 17. Feels like there's meant to be an earlier version that just ignores the first range increment, a la Hunt Prey. Was that an intentional omission? Am I overlooking something?
Don't really agree at all. Demoralize is limited, but it's significantly more valuable than Shove and easier to use than Take Cover. Unlike Vanguard or Drifter you also get a choice of two abilities to use it with and aren't stuck incrementing MAP with a potentially subpar activity.
Retort is situational, but extra MAPless attacks are still basically the best thing you can ask for on a martial.
So ultimately what it comes down to is that Challenge isn't a great feat which... yeah fair enough but whatever.
... I mean for the first eight levels of the game the entire Sniper Way is basically 3.5 damage per combat and you don't even get that if you aren't sneaking or can't shoot on your first turn. Pistolero is the clear, clear winner here.
Fair, Demoralize is good, but only for exactly one round. After that you have to spread your damage, if you can even target another enemy. Being able to switch between two skills is nice and alleviates the problem somewhat, but leaves you with having to max two skills and quite a few levels (3,4,7,8,15 and 16) where one is significantly weaker.
Ten Paces is the overall best initial deed imo as well, that I won't dispute at all.
Calling retort situational is rather optimistic, though. Think about all the things that have to align for you to even have a chance to use this feat. First, an enemy has to critically miss you with a ranged attack. Fair enough, though most campaign are somewhat light on ranged enemies and they are usually occupied with the melee dudes in my experience. Critical misses, on the other hand, are rare, even on ranged attacks. Then you have to actually have a loaded weapon. So you have to intentionally attack fewer times or you will only have this on every other round, unless you are in a very movement-heavy fight. Yeah, this will not happen with any regularity unless you are in a campaign with an extreme amount of ranged mooks. It doesn't matter how good something is when it doesn't happen enough to matter.
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Meanwhile Hiding isn't hard to achieve in my experience and makes the enemy flat-footed. It also works past round one, which is especially important when fighting one or two strong monsters. Add 3.5 average damage to that, which is decent at lower levels, and you are pretty solid. Take Cover is a lot more situational in its usefulness - though I wouldn't say in how hard it is to get - but can occasionally be useful. As an additional upside, all of your other feats and deeds are at least decent, scale properly and aren't situational.
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Shove allows you to not end your turn next to an enemy which is pretty handy or allows you to push them into bad spots. This is definitely the one that will depend the most on your team composition, strategy and playstyle. The rest of the deeds and feats are absolutely solid for that playstyle.
Point 4 is a little strange to me too since all your deeds require a one-handed firearm to work fully except the reload skill. TBH I've even had players specifically complain about that.
Ten Paces is only an issue for surprise combats and Grim Swagger works with any worn one-handed firearm. Stick some light bulk weapon in your belt and it works just fine, even if you are using a two-handed weapon. It's a bit cheesy, but hey, realistically, bigger weapons have a bigger psychological impact anyway.
It's not a HUGE difference, but it's a difference that isn't justified by any additional flexibility, or really much of anything, and that's a bit sad to me, because pistoleros are cool.I mean, you're trading like one point of damage per die in exchange for not needing to spend an extra action every time you have to open a door or climb something or use a consumable or anything else.
I guess if all your combats happen in big open spaces and you never use anything it doesn't matter, but even then you're not actually paying very much.
Or you could just shoot the enemy, Release one hand from your two-handed gun, Interact to open the door and Reload, leaving you with both hands on your weapon. The same as if you had used a one-handed weapon. That doesn't work in every case, but it works often enough to not be a major issue.
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The dueling pistol does about 80% of the damage that the arquebus does, Now admittedly the arquebus forces and investment in strength too.
The dueling pistol does about 85% of the damage that the two handed a jezail does.
That's obviously considered fine comparing one-hand to two-hand, but I think it's too big a gap especially given that the pistolero offers only a free draw and a reaction that I consider extremely limited (need to have a loaded pistol and be crit-failed against in the same turn, sure it's amazing when it happens, but it'll not happen often).
If a pistolero gave a bump to wielding a one-handed firearm with the other hand free, like many dueling classes do in that set-up, and got the damage to ~90%, I'd be delighted, but I think the numbers are off enough that a pistolero is probably better off not using a pistol.
I think I was running numbers wrong, at level 11 and following similar trends at every level the dueling pistol does 89% of the damage that the arquebus does. So I'm more or less okay with the trade-off.
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I might not agree, but it's really great that this Way actually speaks to people and that quite a few seems to really like it^^
Shootist's Edge lets the gunslinger ignore second and third range increments at level 17. Feels like there's meant to be an earlier version that just ignores the first range increment, a la Hunt Prey. Was that an intentional omission? Am I overlooking something?
Nope, was the same in the playtest, no earlier version exists. It's a bit weird, but not overly so, and it is certainly a nice addition.
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Shootist's Edge lets the gunslinger ignore second and third range increments at level 17. Feels like there's meant to be an earlier version that just ignores the first range increment, a la Hunt Prey. Was that an intentional omission? Am I overlooking something?
You don't take a penalty for firing in the first increment so there's nothing missing there.
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Shootist's Edge lets the gunslinger ignore second and third range increments at level 17. Feels like there's meant to be an earlier version that just ignores the first range increment, a la Hunt Prey. Was that an intentional omission? Am I overlooking something?You don't take a penalty for firing in the first increment so there's nothing missing there.
I think they mean the second range increment ^^
Michael sayre said that capacity weapons are supposed to interact with the gunslinger reloads!
Where is this? Because it really fixes a lot of the clunk I feel with regard to dual-wielding pistols.
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Found it: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43hp8?Guns-and-gears-errata#29
I do think it's odd that pistoleros retort was changed from the playtest so it doesn't work with melee weapons or unarmed attacks. That in combination with slingers reflexes would've been really fun (one of the things I would look forward to if I ever played a gunslinger)
Michael sayre said that capacity weapons are supposed to interact with the gunslinger reloads!Where is this? Because it really fixes a lot of the clunk I feel with regard to dual-wielding pistols.The errata topic.
It's great for capacity weapons, but still keeps Dual-Weapon Reload as a major trap option.
The feat neither lets you use your unique reload abilities (which are what makes using reload weapons actually good) nor saves you on actions. It's just a tax to use the non-capacity weapons. Just wastes your 1st-level feat to still be bad at dual-wielding non-capacity weapons when there are some actually good 1st-level feats to take instead.
It lets you regular reload your dual slide pistols, and certain set-ups where you don't have two capacity weapons. So I feel like "trap" is extremely" unnecessarily strong. But it's definitely more corner-case reload type than it first seems.
Michael sayre said that capacity weapons are supposed to interact with the gunslinger reloads!Where is this? Because it really fixes a lot of the clunk I feel with regard to dual-wielding pistols.The errata topic.
It's great for capacity weapons, but still keeps Dual-Weapon Reload as a major trap option.
The feat neither lets you use your unique reload abilities (which are what makes using reload weapons actually good) nor saves you on actions. It's just a tax to use the non-capacity weapons. Just wastes your 1st-level feat to still be bad at dual-wielding non-capacity weapons when there are some actually good 1st-level feats to take instead.
It lets you regular reload your dual slide pistols, and certain set-ups where you don't have two capacity weapons. So I feel like "trap" is extremely" unnecessarily strong. But it's definitely more corner-case reload type than it first seems.
It's also a level one feat with not a lot of competition though. The other level one feats are also not powerful abilities, it's fine as a level 1 feat you largely outgrow but has uses even as a slide pistol cool guy (capacity 5 doesn't go quite far enough in a long fight, and being able to top the pistol back up when you don't need to Raconteur’s Reload or Running Reload is a good option to have.
Honestly, I've come back around on the pistolero entirely through finding out slide pistols work how I thought they were supposed to originally.
It let you get other traits like scatter or double barrels to dual wield, and also gives an option to players that the campaign don't have firearms to dual wield hand-crossbows if they want.
You might not like it, but it have their use.
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... I mean for the first eight levels of the game the entire Sniper Way is basically 3.5 damage per combat and you don't even get that if you aren't sneaking or can't shoot on your first turn. Pistolero is the clear, clear winner here.
I was thinking about this and while I don't think you're wrong (at all), I think that snipers have some more subtle advantages based on playstyle. And yes, Way of the Sniper doesn't exactly bolster this at low levels.
I think having the fighter level proficiency while also using a playstyle that often wants to be Hiding for flat-footed advantage is pretty great when your main weapons are going to have big fatal dice.
That said, purely just looking at it from numbers and how I would play it. I haven't gotten to play a gunslinger yet, but I don't think sniper is that poor off.
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Sniper is reliable so long as you have cover, thankfully we have mobile cover now. You just can't hide behind it. In an ambush or tight rooms, its benefits can be tough to use. I think its advanced deed is the best though.
Oh, for sure! It's very much a niche build, like a mounted character or the like.
EDIT: Also, sorry for the derail.
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I think the Dual Weapon reload should be a passive, Like the bulwarks nimble shield Hand, instead of an active
Basically Just enabling one handed reloading (of any Kind) with something in your other hand
That would certainly help
Dual-wielding being actually viable and not unfun (looking at you, Dual-Weapon Reload) really helps with selling me on Pistolero. Sure it makes Retort even less useful than it was before, since there is no way I'm choosing saving a shot and not use Paired Shots, but that is hardly a loss. I'm kinda irked, because that is exactly what I said would happen in the playtest and it wasn't addressed. Well, you can't have everything. Maybe we will get a dedicated dual-pistol way in the future?
Sniper is reliable so long as you have cover, thankfully we have mobile cover now. You just can't hide behind it. In an ambush or tight rooms, its benefits can be tough to use. I think its advanced deed is the best though.Oh, for sure! It's very much a niche build, like a mounted character or the like.
EDIT: Also, sorry for the derail.
No problem. And since this is in some ways a Way comparison thread, I wouldn't call it a proper derail ^^.
But yeah, I'll absolutely play a Sniper for my first gunslinger. Getting an effective +4 or +6 above the normal martial attack modifier for one shot per round when you hit level 6... I'm salivating. It certainly overcomes one of the limitations of guns, i.e. they are worse the better the enemies' AC is. Getting the flat-footed every round will be somewhat situational, but unlike the others, Stealth takes your key ability, so it should be fine.
The Bastion archetype looks like a solid pickup for one-gun Pistoleros. Boosting your AC with a shield means you're more likely to be critically missed and proc Pistolero's Retort, if you do get hit you can Shield Block to reduce the damage, and Nimble Shield Hand lets you reload without needing to use a Buckler.
tBH if I was playing a dual weapon gunslinger I'd probably just use drifter and put stocks on the guns since reloading strike is already two-weapon friendly.
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After looking around more, I can sort of see where the OP is coming from but I'm having a much tougher time with Vanguard.
The reload action increments MAP and... IDK I feel like shove is one of the lower value athletics actions in general too. This makes the standard shoot-reload-shoot a bit awkward for the vanguard.
And then you have Living fortification. AC Bonuses are cool and all but it lasts until the start of your first turn on a class with high perception. The ability gets worse the better your initiative and you naturally have a good initiatve. There's a really good chance the ability just doesn't do anything.
Spinning Crush comes online earlier than other, similar skills... but a d6 base die makes its damage a little weak and as with similar activites it's awkward to activate a 3 action skill that requires you to be surrounded.
Siegebreaker is cool. You charge into battle, do a strike with a some solid bonus damage and get a defensive buff too. It's very thematic, basically completely condenses the idea of the Way... my only problem with this skill is that it feels so emblematic of what the Way represents it feels really bad it comes online at level 15. Before that you really don't care about being in melee range (unless you want to Shove) and you don't have anything incentivizing a scatter weapon.
Blast Tackle is kind of similar in that it feels very on point to unload your shotgun into someone you're grabbing but it comes online insanely late.
Nothing wrong with Phalanx breaker but why does Vanguard need three different ways to Push people? It just doesn't really feel like it captures that whole feeling of getting in the thick of it with a big gun.
Spellshot feels weird too. The reload action has the same problem as Pistolero with only being using a limited number of times per combat... and the math on dispelling bullet isn't super great and requires you to go hard on INT to make it work. Overall it's not terrible, imo, but unlike the other ways it costs your second level feat and locks you out of most archetypes and I'm not sure it really earns that.
After looking around more, I can sort of see where the OP is coming from but I'm having a much tougher time with Vanguard.
The reload action increments MAP and... IDK I feel like shove is one of the lower value athletics actions in general too. This makes the standard shoot-reload-shoot a bit awkward for the vanguard.
And then you have Living fortification. AC Bonuses are cool and all but it lasts until the start of your first turn on a class with high perception. The ability gets worse the better your initiative and you naturally have a good initiatve. There's a really good chance the ability just doesn't do anything.
Spinning Crush comes online earlier than other, similar skills... but a d6 base die makes its damage a little weak and as with similar activites it's awkward to activate a 3 action skill that requires you to be surrounded.
Siegebreaker is cool. You charge into battle, do a strike with a some solid bonus damage and get a defensive buff too. It's very thematic, basically completely condenses the idea of the Way... my only problem with this skill is that it feels so emblematic of what the Way represents it feels really bad it comes online at level 15. Before that you really don't care about being in melee range (unless you want to Shove) and you don't have anything incentivizing a scatter weapon.
Blast Tackle is kind of similar in that it feels very on point to unload your shotgun into someone you're grabbing but it comes online insanely late.
Nothing wrong with Phalanx breaker but why does Vanguard need three different ways to Push people? It just doesn't really feel like it captures that whole feeling of getting in the thick of it with a big gun.
Vanguard seems like a good Way for campaigns that primarily feature CQC, like Agents of Edgewatch, but I definitely see what you mean.
I think this is one of those times where we have to look at something in a different way, if we want to make sense of it. The gunslinger in general looks like it leans much more into using a single two-action activity or a single Strike action of some description and something else for your last action, rather than the "shot, reload, shoot" style. Precision ranger rather than flurry ranger, if you will. Vanguard, Twin Pistolero and Sniper lean into this the most.
When I see Clear a Path, the first use that comes to mind is teaming up with a frontliner that has a reach weapon. Shoot the enemy and shove them out of reach, freeing up actions on your teammate, because they don't have to spend an action to Step away. Also usually wastes an action for the nemey to get close again, which is even more important. Alternatively, stay next to a more squishy companion like a caster and keep the enemy off their back. The really annoying things is that it says "If your last action was a ranged Strike with the weapon, use the same multiple attack penalty", meaning if you do anything that isn't a basic Strike, such as any two-action activity provided by your way or cool stuff like Ricochet Shot, you still suffer the full MAP on your Shove. That seems really odd and is definitely something I will houserule as a GM, if it is even intended.
Phalanx Breaker allows you a high chance to move enemies with reach for the same effect as Clear a Path and at range to boot. The ultimate repositioning tool. That will be the saviour of many a life - speaking from experience, getting knocked prone next to an enemy with AoO and combat reflexes is really, really bad.
Boy did I miss the limitations of Living Fortification... welp, that definitely needs to be fixed.
Spinning Crush is kinda whatever. Better than Pistolero's Retort, but not exactly great. Might see some use to get out of tight corners and to push away several enemies on the frontline, I guess? Wasting 2 actions on two mooks (1 each), or maybe 3 total if you are very lucky and doing a bit of damage is inefficient, but not absolutely terrible.
Siegebreaker is pretty great, if late, and Blast Tackle is mildly effective. Tethering yourself to something as an 8HP class doesn't seem terribly clever, though.
Overall I'd say that this way has a lot of potential as a controller and waster of enemy actions, though the damage will suffer somewhat. Requires a lot more teamwork and positioning, which I personally like. If you use Free Archetype, picking up Sentinel for heavy armour seems like a great idea.