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Same issue(s), haven't so far tried any fixes.
Also, a lot of consumeable have a high action cost for dubious or even low-chance benefits.
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Even in the playtest I had to wonder at what level is a PC intended to use a consumable. Sure, they come with a level of the item, but as noted, they're too expensive to use by people of that level. But that doesn't keep players from snatching up consumables several levels below themselves. The question is, was that intentional?
Then I see the feats that grant scrolls or talisman access and those consumables are way below level too. A 20th level PC can only be balanced using daily 10th level Talismans? Really? Huh.
(Meanwhile Alchemists work fine using alchemy at their level?)
Note I'm not actually unhappy (nor gleeful) with this situation, merely inquisitive as to Paizo's intent. I know in PF1 consumables were a problem and I'd have PCs carry scores of them myself (maybe even a hundred w/ all those backup scrolls). :-) They do tilt the balance toward prepared players, which who knows, might make balancing published encounters rougher. So maybe Paizo wanted to downplay consumables (look at Wands!), especially since they need no Investment, much the same way they've trimmed spell durations so that a party piling on a dozen party buffs (actually more at the highest levels; we used a spreadsheet at times) wouldn't be balanced against a party with few. Which party do you tune your encounters to?
So they end up downplaying consumables, it seems, so that they'll not skew the power curves too much by having the consumables that would make a difference, the ones at the PCs' level, cost too much. Maybe. Dunno.
I guess the other alternative was to make it so 10th level consumables were called 20th level, yet had the same effects and prices.
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Separately, my pet peeve with consumables as a GM was (the thankfully few) players that would invest heavily in them, go nova, then expect to be replenished as if their income should increase because they've spent more. Um...no. The treasure system expects a certain amount used on consumables and services so you don't need to invest completely in permanent items to keep up with wealth expectations. But to exploit the expected wealth by intentionally going broke splurging on consumables? No, just stop. And PF2's higher prices kind of has stopped that.
Not that I'm seeing that here w/ y'all! Yet consumables are a power boost, so by lowering their prices, you are increasing the party's power. PF2's rigorous system can handle fluctuations though, so if consumables are where the party enjoys getting their power bumps, so be it.
Cheers
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My casters' money goes nearly only in consumables. Scrolls are a good bang for their buck (way more than wands which are over expensive).
If you reduce the price of consumables to one fourth of their actual value, my casters would certainly end up with hundreds of scroll. When Fireball becomes an at-will power, I think the game is broken. But to each their own.
The problem with consumables is the same than with permanent items: Some are good, some are extremely bad. Who would pay 5000gp for Heedless Spurs? So, do we reduce the price of permanent items for useless permanent items to become common?
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Generally healing potions are a bad investment for consumables-- they are really just there in case of emergencies, like if the cleric is knocked out. However, there are a lot of consumables that are handy to have on hand regardless of level. Water breathing is a key example, available in scrolls, potions, and elixirs.
The more you lower the price of consumables, the higher the odds the player will have exactly the silver bullet they need. Whether that is bad or not is a matter of taste. But I also think consumables are mostly for loot drops. Selling 8 of them to buy 1 permanent item is rather a lot, especially because by the time you get 8 consumables that permanent item would be under leveled. They give out a lot less consumables in PF2, where in PF1 every mook past a certain level had a couple potions.
Some consumables aren't especially good, but I don't think adjusting prices for all consumables is worth doing for that.
We haven't considered this in our game yet. Since we introduced said house rule at around level 9, all full casters had already access to spell level 5 spells and thus, having plenty of spells each day already. On lower level I can imagine this giving casters more higher level slots than they should have. But then again, such a buff would bring casters closer to the power level of martials, which I am all here for.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I've already played casters in what I call "spell frenzy" (casting only highest level spells each and every round) and the result is that everyone just looks at you obliterating everything. The game is balanced around highest level spells being a limited resource.
Anyway, adapting the game to the party/group is what every GM has to do. If your party has issues with consumable price, then it's a solution.Many people have hard time buying consumables feeling they are "losing" money so having consumables to be too cheap is the best thing to do.
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Consumables in loot and purchasing never seem to be an issue for my party. We utilize what we can use, sell what we don't, and we often make purchases. Consumables also come in real handy. Especially for a couple of my current groups that are low magic.
That being said if you group has an issue I am glad you were able to come up with a solution.
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To be fair, most consumable loot drops since D&D3 have had two likely fates: Either
- They get sold to a vendor at the earliest opportunity, or
- They are held in reserve by the PCs and forgotten about until the campaign ends and someone goes 'wow, I still have that low level item in my inventory!'
Actually buying consumables is fairly rare in my experience: My PF1 characters often seek out a Feather Token (Tar and Feathers) as an invisiblity counter and of course CLW Wands as needed, but that's about it.
PF2e basically doubles down on this by making consumables so expensive. For my Age of Ashes Halfling Thief, I believe my total consumable use over 20 levels was:
- A Jade Cat talisman looted and used effectively at low level.
- A handful of Bloodseeker Beak talismans looted fairly early in the campaign and used occasionally mid-campaign (honestly, not a terrible option for a thief),
- A pair of Mummified Bat talismans (one looted and used effectively, the second purchased and equipped but never used) for my offhand gauntlet, and
- A looted Grinning Pugwampi talisman I kept but never equipped (seems cool, but the longer you wait to use it, the weaker that save DC seems).
I give talismans credit for having some style, but the cost/actual usefulness ratio is generally too high (other than perhaps the Bat and Beak talismans)
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Yeah, I also don't personally believe casters lag behind martials when you consider their breadth of options. But hey, if you feel differently, go nuts.
We're playing AoA as written and my party has plenty of cash left for consumables. I think they just came back to town at the end of book 2 (level 9) with over 3k gold. They were able to get 3 resilient runes, property runes for the melee characters, 10 moderate healing potions, scrolls (more than I can remember), 4 wands, barding for an animal companion, etc. I think they had 400 gold left over to keep working on the citadel. Anyway, I think it really depends on how you're giving out cash/loot whether or not this is an issue.
I believe the loot/cash per level table is set up with the expectation that players spend 20-25% of that on consumables, but can't remember if I read that in the book itself or somewhere else.
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Actually I could make the same reasoning about permanent items. Outside the "maths" items (weapon and armor runes, skill bonuses), I very rarely buy items.
As consumables don't have "maths" items, they feel less useful, but there's actually a whole lot of items that are not very interesting, not just consumables.
If I was playing with ABP, I think I would buy nearly nothing (and more consumables than permanent items).
I my games personally my players use so many consumables that I could never reduce the price, heck, a lot of them integrate consumables on their build, like Mesmerizing Opals on Swashbucklers and Rogues, Flame Oracles/elemental betrayal witches with retaliation potions and Fear Gems on fighters (the player using Champion now continues to pick and buy fear gems).
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The problem of consumables is manifold as they have to compete with other items or powers not on one but on two axes. One is the effect per gold ratio and the other one being the effect per action ratio. Understandably most consumables that fall flat on one or both of those will never be used by your players. Scrolls might be ok because you can often use your own DC as well as any consumable that creates a more or less level independent effect (think Potion of Invisibility, Haste or the like), or emergency consumables like everyone carrying a Healing Potion for the party Cleric or a Jade Cat Talisman that you can active as a free action.
Our party sold every single consumable we found in AoA books 1 and 2 that could not carry its weight relative to the current party level and/or took too many actions to activate, which I guestimate was like 95% of all consumables (excluding most scrolls and healing potions). On a side note we used an accumulated stash of like two dozen healing potions of various strength after fighting a very particular monster in order to bring everybody back to full health and without having to spend a full 10 minutes to rest.
Yes, the default rules and prices favor character build over consumable or even permanent equipment. But it isn't hard to change that balance if you and your friends prefer a different feel to the game.
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If consumable price is really low, there are some consumable-based builds that can be pretty awesome. I like the "healing monk". As you have 2 hands free, you can carry potions and heal while fighting. I've played with such combo a PFS game (I was playing the Alchemist giving the Elixirs of Life to the monk) and we ended up nailing healing despite having only one Alchemist in a 6-player party with no other form of healing, Medicine included (my Alchemist was Trained with no feat and ended up being the party out of combat healer).
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Also, people have an aversion for consumables. They think they lose money when buying some.
Take the example of wands. Outside Wands of Manifold Missiles and Wands of Heal, there's no point in buying a wand as a full caster as it won't give you more than 2 or 3 extra casting in your whole adventuring carreer for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll. And still, lots of people buy wands and they even think they gain money compared to scrolls.
Not everyone is rational.
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When playing a spellcaster:
I would buy wands for things that I normally only want to cast once per day, but do so most days. Mage Armor, Tiny Hut, Pet Cache, Vital Beacon, ...
For other things that I would want to cast once per day, but only rarely, get a scroll or potion for that. Magic Aura, Misdirection, Zone of Truth, ...
Large numbers of scrolls would also be better for things that when you want to use them, you need to use them on the entire party. Water Breathing, Phantom Steed, ...
For non-spellcaster characters, the only options for magical effects like this would be consumables. Or rely on spellcasting party members.o
Wand of 8-hour longstrider has been pretty solid, freed up a spell known for something else. I'm looking for a wand of soothing spring next because it's mainly been used for relaxing at the end of a day of adventuring (who doesn't want a magical on-demand hot spring every day?). Another point to consider for the value of wands is resale when you're done with it for half the cost back.
Consumables are expensive and scale with player wealth instead of linearly. PCs should be making enough money through adventure to consider buying consumables a bit below their level or splurging on something more powerful.
Quartering the cost of consumables would certainly cause me to try and buy some scrolls of chain lightning at around level 7. And it also devalues the alchemist's ability to make free on-level consumables each day, for whatever that's worth.
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Also, people have an aversion for consumables. They think they lose money when buying some.
Take the example of wands. Outside Wands of Manifold Missiles and Wands of Heal, there's no point in buying a wand as a full caster as it won't give you more than 2 or 3 extra casting in your whole adventuring carreer for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll. And still, lots of people buy wands and they even think they gain money compared to scrolls.
Not everyone is rational.
I think once a day casts that last 8+ hours like 2nd Level Longstrider are good wand purchases, but I could be mistaken.
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there's no point in buying a wand as a full caster as it won't give you more than 2 or 3 extra casting in your whole adventuring carreer
I mean, you don't buy wands of spells you're only going to cast 2 or 3 times. You buy wands of spells you want to cast every day.
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I think once a day casts that last 8+ hours like 2nd Level Longstrider are good wand purchases, but I could be mistaken.
As I said, something that you can use out of combat and that has a level independent effect (e.g. no attack) usually will be accepted and used.
A good counter example would be our 7th level Barbarian with like 120 HP considering using a Healing Potion (moderate, level 6) in combat.
Barbarian: Man, my character is pretty much beat up and my HP is low, what do I need to do to use one of those brand new Healing Potions we found just recently?
GM: Well, release the grip on your Maul, draw the potion, quaff the potion and finally grip your Maul again. That's a grand total of 3 actions.
Barbarian: And how much will it heal?
GM: Hm...considering slightly above average rolls approximately 25 points worth of HP.
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: Nevermind, where is the next enemy?
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I think once a day casts that last 8+ hours like 2nd Level Longstrider are good wand purchases, but I could be mistaken.Also, people have an aversion for consumables. They think they lose money when buying some.
Take the example of wands. Outside Wands of Manifold Missiles and Wands of Heal, there's no point in buying a wand as a full caster as it won't give you more than 2 or 3 extra casting in your whole adventuring carreer for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll. And still, lots of people buy wands and they even think they gain money compared to scrolls.
Not everyone is rational.
The Wand of Longstrider doesn't allow you to cast Longstrider. If you didn't had the wand you would have taken the spell in your spell slot. What the wand allows you to do is to cast the spell that you prepare instead of Longstrider. And this spell, yes, I don't think you'd cast it very often and would have been a pretty good spell on a scroll. Roughly, it's equivalent to an extra second level spell slot. And how many times will you empty your second level spells at level 5+ (the level of the wand)? Maybe a bit more than 2 to 3 times, but clearly not much more.
Wand of Longstrider is only useful if you have a caster dedication and not the feats to get spell slots or Trick Magic Item. Otherwise, buy scrolls. You can buy nearly 15 scrolls for your Wand of Longstrider, they are 2 levels under the Wand so you should be able to have them earlier (as you'll certainly have the Wand at level 5 where second level spells become less and less useful). And you'll be able to cover way more ground with lots of spell choice and multiple cast if needed.
A good counter example would be our 7th level Barbarian with like 120 HP considering using a Healing Potion (moderate, level 6) in combat.
Barbarian: Man, my character is pretty much beat up and my HP is low, what do I need to do to use one of those brand new Healing Potions we found just recently?
GM: Well, release the grip on your Maul, draw the potion, quaff the potion and finally grip your Maul again. That's a grand total of 3 actions.
Barbarian: And how much will it heal?
GM: Hm...considering slightly above average rolls approximately 25 points worth of HP.
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: ...
Barbarian: Nevermind, where is the next enemy?
I would argue that this isn't what healing potions are for. Healing potions are for situations where a party member went down and you need to get them back above zero quickly and don't have (or already used) Battle Medicine.
"I grab the potion off the unconscious wizard's belt and dump it down his throat for 3d6+7 hp"
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I would argue that this isn't what healing potions are for. Healing potions are for situations where a party member went down and you need to get them back above zero quickly and don't have (or already used) Battle Medicine.
"I grab the potion off the unconscious wizard's belt and dump it down his throat for 3d6+7 hp"
While this is probably true I can give you countless examples of consumables not being worth their actions, e.g. our two weapon Rogue actually using Holy Water for 3 actions (draw, strike, re-grip) on a bunch of skeletons, only to learn that he would probably and easily have done more damage by just walking up to the skeletons and attacking them directly.
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In my experience, the main issues with consumables is that like many non scaling items, they only have a window of 1 or 2 levels before their DCs and/or effects start becoming obsolete. Items that also don't have a failure mode, such as poisons, also feel really bad when you spend money and have a decent shot of not doing anything if you hit even an on level creature with a hefty fort save.
I combat these issue using two main methods: the first is giving out items with an expiration time, similar to infused items; usually so they'll last an adventure or two. These items can't be sold, though a player might be able to buy them super cheap, but typically, they are just looted or gifted the the PCs. Alternatively, since my party is part of an organization, they might be supplied with consumables, with the expectation that unused items will be returned, and that the items cannot be sold. Either way, by putting a clock on the items, players are more incentivised to use the items while they are relevant, because they dont get any value from hording them.
The second is market control. Most markets in my game only readily have access to items their level-2, and getting higher than that requires gathering information. For consumables, the available levels are at party level, with some level+1 or even level+2 items without needing to make a check. Sure, they might be pricey, but there is a real advantage to, say, having a scroll of level 4 charm when your castee can only sling 3rd level spells, and now you have a shot at charming even a boss. Likewise, a fighter certainly wouldn't balk at a poison who's DC surpasses their class DC by 2.
Related is that if the party gets a wagon, I'll let them craft on the road, and since consumables are cheaper, they tend to craft faster. A batch of antiplague you need now is more helpful than a skill booster you'll have after the session and partway into the next or if you want it now, you'll basically pay full price for.
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I think once a day casts that last 8+ hours like 2nd Level Longstrider are good wand purchases, but I could be mistaken.Also, people have an aversion for consumables. They think they lose money when buying some.
Take the example of wands. Outside Wands of Manifold Missiles and Wands of Heal, there's no point in buying a wand as a full caster as it won't give you more than 2 or 3 extra casting in your whole adventuring carreer for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll. And still, lots of people buy wands and they even think they gain money compared to scrolls.
Not everyone is rational.
The Wand of Longstrider doesn't allow you to cast Longstrider. If you didn't had the wand you would have taken the spell in your spell slot. What the wand allows you to do is to cast the spell that you prepare instead of Longstrider. And this spell, yes, I don't think you'd cast it very often and would have been a pretty good spell on a scroll. Roughly, it's equivalent to an extra second level spell slot. And how many times will you empty your second level spells at level 5+ (the level of the wand)? Maybe a bit more than 2 to 3 times, but clearly not much more.
Wand of Longstrider is only useful if you have a caster dedication and not the feats to get spell slots or Trick Magic Item. Otherwise, buy scrolls. You can buy nearly 15 scrolls for your Wand of Longstrider, they are 2 levels under the Wand so you should be able to have them earlier (as you'll certainly have the Wand at level 5 where second level spells become less and less useful). And you'll be able to cover way more ground with lots of spell choice and multiple cast if needed.
Well, it does also let you cast Longstrider. In addition to whatever else you put in your 1st level spell slot instead of Longstrider.
And there are plenty of good 1st level spells to have available even for a level 5+ character. Illusory Object, Grease, Feather Fall, Air Bubble, Alarm, Color Spray, ...
And yeah, I see your point about buying a scroll or seven instead of a wand at lower level. But if I got a wand of Longstrider as loot, I certainly wouldn't be complaining that I didn't get 15 scrolls of Longstrider instead.
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Consumables are also pretty decent when bought en masse at level-7 or so.
Talismans only require the affixed item be worn to activate, so 100 fear gems (2000 gp, about the price of a level 12ish permanent item) attached to a bunch of random daggers on your person is like a permanent upgrade to intimidating strike.
Likewise, independent/valet may no longer work, but independent/manual dex can still be 2 free draws a combat. 100 true strike scrolls (400gp, about the price of a level 8 permanent item) can be great for a magus.
Lastly, at high levels, a bunch of heal scrolls and heroism scrolls is a far better use of money than a permanent item.
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It happens to me too to consider "should I drink my healing elixir or bet that the enemy would die before his turn?" or even "shouldn't be wiser to keep the healing elixir for a little longer, waiting for a real challenge?" and so on.
Since Starfinder, Paizo has reviewed the entire economy of their games. Starfinder is a bit extreme as even weapons and armors are "consumables", as they are only kept for a few levels, raising the exact same questions than consumables: Should I buy a new armor or wait a bit longer?
The main differences in the economy between PF2 and PF1 are the (more pronounced) exponential growth of wealth and the item levels limiting what can be bought. As a result, every item becomes very quickly cheap and you always have spare money to buy non mandatory items. It answers the question: Should I use this elixir now or wait for a better moment? The answer is always yes, as the next time you'll go to town, you'll buy a higher level elixir, or buy the very same elixir for a price that will look negligeable to you.
Once you consider that the cost of your entire equipment is equivalent to the price of a single item of 4 levels higher, you realize that you can "lose" money without impacting your character overall wealth. Something that was not true in PF1, where losing your entire equipment was having a long lasting effect on your efficiency.
For example, if you lose your entire equipment at level 16, you will have lost 17% of your wealth by the time you'll be 20. In PF1, it would be the equivalent of losing your entire equipment at level 13, so nearly twice more time to get back on your feet.
It even raises questions that were unknown before, like: Is it better to buy a single permanent item or a bunch of 5-6 consumables. Sure, the permanent item is a better choice long term speaking, but the consumables give you more short term power. And once you'll be out of consumables, you'll have a few extra level and their price will feel negligeable.
That's actually another argument against wands. Even if you find a wand with enough utility to be worth its price in scrolls, you will have more immediate power by buying scrolls. And when you'll be out of these scrolls, their price will be so negligeable that you won't even care about having lost that money.
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I was going to make a few minor points such as permanent items can also be sold for 1/2 value, consumeables fall under "should I use it now or save for next time" whereas permanent items will recharge to be ready if needed multiple times, etc.
However. None of that matters. What matters for me personally is that consumeables feel exceedingly consumerist and plain irresponsible. Why the hell would I use the equivalent of someones year of work as a one-off maybe-works-maybe-doesn't item such as a medium level scroll of offensive spell? It doesn't matter if I can afford it, but immorality of such an act is humongous.
No. I hate consumeables in general; they are far too expensive, often action hungry, and the worst part is, they just feel super-bad to use from so many angles.
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I think scrolls are the only exception to this, those work fine and could be dangerous if they were cheaper.
But besides that I completely agree, most consumables should be half the price or less. Especially things with a set DC. Healing potions are the greatest offender here, with how easy it is to get both in and out of combat healing, the pricing of the healing consumables makes no sense.
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Healing potions are the greatest offender here, with how easy it is to get both in and out of combat healing, the pricing of the healing consumables makes no sense.
I have the opposite feeling. Instead of keeping one hand free for Battle Medicine, you can just grab a potion. You can use it only once per fight (but Battle Medicine also has strong limitations) and it doesn't cost you anything but one consumable.
I've seen tons of casters with potions in the inventory and free hands. As I often play a Chirurgeon Alchemist, I fill their hands with Elixirs of Life and the overall healing ability of the party greatly increases. It's a nice third action available to everyone with a free hand.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's a nice third action available to everyone with a free hand.
Which may or may not be more easily said than done, as keeping a free hand is another "hidden" meta element of PF2 that you need to realize at some point or another (and not only necessary for consumables). When we started PF2 without prior knowledge how important it is to keep one hand free on at least some characters choices would have been very much different.
It's a nice third action available to everyone with a free hand.Which may or may not be more easily said than done, as keeping a free hand is another "hidden" meta element of PF2 that you need to realize at some point or another (and not only necessary for consumables). When we started PF2 without prior knowledge how important it is to keep one hand free on at least some characters choices would have been very much different.
It's not "that hard" to have a free hand for potions. For martials, I agree that it's a big deal, but most casters have available hands, especially at low level when you don't have any staff. Also, you can drop a potion without any impact on your fighting ability, so it's much less of a deal to have a potion in one of your hand than, say, a weapon or shield.
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Drawing and drinking the Potion still costs 2 actions in total, which is so much worse than Battle Medicine, completely ignoring the abysmal healing value that an on-level potion gives you compared to Battle Medicine.Healing potions are the greatest offender here, with how easy it is to get both in and out of combat healing, the pricing of the healing consumables makes no sense.I have the opposite feeling. Instead of keeping one hand free for Battle Medicine, you can just grab a potion. You can use it only once per fight (but Battle Medicine also has strong limitations) and it doesn't cost you anything but one consumable.
I've seen tons of casters with potions in the inventory and free hands. As I often play a Chirurgeon Alchemist, I fill their hands with Elixirs of Life and the overall healing ability of the party greatly increases. It's a nice third action available to everyone with a free hand.
He's literally placing them in their hands so they begin combat with the potion prepped to deliver, hence his reference to "once per fight" because yes, two actions would cut into their spellcasting/cost too much.
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I think scrolls are the only exception to this, those work fine and could be dangerous if they were cheaper.
I think what it comes down to is less scrolls and more like... how level dependent is that consumable.
Consumables that provide level-independent benefits become incredibly handy because you can buy lots of them relatively cheaply at higher levels.
That's where scrolls are good, because you can by scrolls of low level utility spells that provide a lot of bang for their buck, but this also applies to a handful of other consumables with utility effects. I can be level 20 and still use a fear gem or forensic dye or a jade cat statue or whatever.
But consumables with leveled effects, that rely on DCs or do static amounts of damage and are only really effective at their own level because otherwise the damage becomes too low or the DCs too easy to succeed end up feeling rough, because they are so expensive on-level and don't scale.
Also makes things like Alchemist dedication feel frustrating because with their slow progression by the time you get access to a bomb/poison it's often already not be relevant anymore.
Drawing and drinking the Potion still costs 2 actions in total, which is so much worse than Battle Medicine, completely ignoring the abysmal healing value that an on-level potion gives you compared to Battle Medicine.
Same number of actions (no need to draw it if you have it in hands), higher healing output (abysmal healing... you should really check your maths).
Sorry to tell you that, but maybe your grudge against consumables comes from the fact that you don't know how to use them.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Drawing and drinking the Potion still costs 2 actions in total, which is so much worse than Battle Medicine, completely ignoring the abysmal healing value that an on-level potion gives you compared to Battle Medicine.Same number of actions (no need to draw it if you have it in hands), higher healing output (abysmal healing... you should really check your maths).
Sorry to tell you that, but maybe your grudge against consumables comes from the fact that you don't know how to use them.
I don't think it's not knowing how to use them: quite a few characters can have a hand free for Battle Medicine but do not have a free hand all the time like bow users, casters that hold a staff or martials that need a free hand for stances and such [like Dueling Dance] so carrying around a potion 'just in case' isn't tenable as a tactic for them.
Secondly, there are ways to improve Battle Medicines rolls and reduce temp immunity times [like Medic or Forensic Medicine] where potions/elixirs stay the same. You can get base Battle Medicine healing + level + [up to 15] and immunity 1 hour and the ability to ignore immunity 1/hour... Or a standard potion/elixir.
So I'll agree with Subutai1 here.
I have run a lot of PF2e now and have never seen players struggle to have gold for consumables.
There is too much of a focus on static "always on" benefits or permanent items that won't be used all the time rather than cushion items.
Not all consumables are good or stay worthwhile. But many do and a bunch of level dependent items last in value over a number of levels.
Scrolls being any cheaper would be horrible for balance, and while sure potions can take two actions to administer.. but you can break out the potion the turn before you use it and can even get people who need to use it come to you or use it as a way to get a person up who has better healing options.
IMO if healing items were better we would be looking at extremely bad and grindy gameplay loops becoming meta.
Again, sure some items suck and have way too small an avenue of use (I advocate GMs using the GMG to create scaling level/cost versions of things like slumber arrows if a player expresses a desire despite the incapacitation trait). But we have a large variety of options now.
Surely everyone can see value in character grabbing dust of disappearances on every character when they are level 10+, sure it costs more than a scroll... but doesn't require trick magic item or two actions to cast so you can split taking it out over two turns or start combat with it in your hand, sure it won't be used every combat, but it is exceptionally good at mitigating high accuracy targeted attacks from +3 and +4 foes. Which then of course necessitates cats eye elixir. (oh no 7gp a consumable at levels 10+ how ever shall a pc afford it :P )
Keep in mind that PCs are only likely to have 10-12 fights a level assuming the standard progression. I would say less than half of those are going to need consumable purchases, but those severe and extreme fights or even moderate fights where the party is out of their depth or have a bad turn of luck, that is where consumables smooth difficulty curves and help pull parties out of the fire.
As for looted consumables being used for selling, I advise my players to simply hold onto the items until they actually need the gold. If they find that they have use for the item before then, cool, if they don't then they can just sell it when they actually need the gold. Because excess liquid gold with no purpose, serves nobody.
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Healing potions are the greatest offender here, with how easy it is to get both in and out of combat healing, the pricing of the healing consumables makes no sense.I have the opposite feeling. Instead of keeping one hand free for Battle Medicine, you can just grab a potion. You can use it only once per fight (but Battle Medicine also has strong limitations) and it doesn't cost you anything but one consumable.
I've seen tons of casters with potions in the inventory and free hands. As I often play a Chirurgeon Alchemist, I fill their hands with Elixirs of Life and the overall healing ability of the party greatly increases. It's a nice third action available to everyone with a free hand.
My party and I have been keeping ourselves alive just by using potions (some things happened and we ended up without healers) and while potions themselves are great, the price is not sustainable. Having a few low level potions to save your allies life when they are downed is great, but having to actually use the highest level healing potions available is painful (and yes, I'm aware that my experience in that game is the corner case, even so, the point is still valid, if you get to the point of needing high level potions, your economy starts to crumble and I don't think that's a good thing).
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Drawing and drinking the Potion still costs 2 actions in total, which is so much worse than Battle Medicine, completely ignoring the abysmal healing value that an on-level potion gives you compared to Battle Medicine.Same number of actions (no need to draw it if you have it in hands), higher healing output (abysmal healing... you should really check your maths).
Sorry to tell you that, but maybe your grudge against consumables comes from the fact that you don't know how to use them.I don't think it's not knowing how to use them: quite a few characters can have a hand free for Battle Medicine but do not have a free hand all the time like bow users, casters that hold a staff or martials that need a free hand for stances and such [like Dueling Dance] so carrying around a potion 'just in case' isn't tenable as a tactic for them.
Secondly, there are ways to improve Battle Medicines rolls and reduce temp immunity times [like Medic or Forensic Medicine] where potions/elixirs stay the same. You can get base Battle Medicine healing + level + [up to 15] and immunity 1 hour and the ability to ignore immunity 1/hour... Or a standard potion/elixir.
So I'll agree with Subutai1 here.
SuperBidi did specify he was talking about casters, especially before the staff comes into play.
And the ways you mention above are build-specific, while his point is build-agnostic.
TBH I like SuperBidi's out of the box train of thoughts because it gives me new insights I was not considering.
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SuperBidi did specify he was talking about casters, especially before the staff comes into play.
And the ways you mention above are build-specific, while his point is build-agnostic.
Having a hand free that you can use to hold a potion until you need it is pretty build-specific, even in the caster department. IMO, there are a lot of things I'd rather take up my free hand than a potion.
TBH I like SuperBidi's out of the box train of thoughts because it gives me new insights I was not considering.
Sure, if you have a hand free and never expect to have to use it for anything else, it's better than nothing. I can't say I've run into that though: usually, I find myself needing more hands than I have, not having one free and nothing to use it for.
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Thoughtful Gift is a surprisingly cool spell-- I have ideas for a witch who uses cauldron to brew potions and then yeets them into people's hands, dual wielders and shield users and archers can all drop stuff when wounded to facilitate it.
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I honestly did not have that experience with my casters nor my Animal Barbarian ;-)
I can see non-weapon monks and animal barbarians. My casters though will usually have something in 1 hand and the other open for casting: maybe an Archaic Wayfinder or a staff, maybe a weapon [and might tape a spellheart on that too] or a shield.