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yeah, there's a great guide listed below about how the Necromancy Buckets work:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit?resourceke y=0-14szXwlKO7ndjgv4Q3A9EQ
Basically, as long as you can find a single dead thing of your max HD you can make, you can have it, instead of a horde of lesser undead.
I played a Cleric necromancer, and IMO, it's the best choice.
The Occultist Necromancy Implement has the Necromantic Servant power. It summons one fairly beefy skeleton or zombie. It's pretty cool and avoids a lot of the normal hangups over necromancy the setting usually has.
anti-paladin (at least 5th level for fiendish boon) + skeleton summoner
-you would probebly need to use the 'reskin summon as skeleton' option with standard anti-paladin as a normal skeleton isn't an evil & chaotic subtype. (although the ability to have a skeleton champion companion would have been nice).
some of the archtypes of anti-paladin might work better.
for example the 'seal breaker' anti-paladin get a skeleton mount that level up as a druid animal companion, and he doesn't even need to waste feats on skeleton summoner and it's required spell focus (necromancy).
@TxSam88 Thanks! I'l check out the guide! :D
Do you run base Cleric or the Undead Lord archetype or anything else?
@Scavion I have been interested in trying the Occultist, It seems like a really nice class.. Hmm... Thank you! :)
No, I did the Separatist Archetype, so I could be neutral and channel both positive and negative energy, and Get the Death domain, so I'd have the Undead spells.
I could channel negative energy to harm bad guys or heal myself and my undead horde, or channel positive energy to heal my allies or kill undead that I couldn't control.
If you're going to make a Necromancer with insanely strong pets, I'd go with a Juju Oracle, Undead Master feat, and PrC into Agent of the Grave asap. You should be able to PrC into AotG at lvl 7, 8, 9, 10, and be finished at 11.
Spirit Vessels (Su): You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you. When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.
Undead Servitude (Su): You gain Command Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel negative energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, but only to use Command Undead. You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Alignment Channel.
Undead Master
You can marshal vast armies of the undead to serve you.
Prerequisites: Spell focus (necromancy), the ability to cast animate dead or command undead.
Benefit: When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.
Use your Command Undead bucket and Animate Dead bucket to build the biggest, beefiest, unrolled max HP zombies you can possibly make with the Desecrate spell.
Use the AotG's Secrets of Death ability at level 11 to get the Command Undead spell for your Third "Bucket", and pick up the Extend Spell Metamagic. Now you can create a veritable zoo of Undead creatures following you with no maximum HD requirement and stay under your control for 3 days/level. The max Undead you can have in this bucket is only limited on your ability to successfully cast the Command Undead spell without it being Saved.
Put Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, and Spell Perfection on your Animate Dead spell for maxing out your Caster Level to get more/bigger Undead.
Whenever you want to create a really, really big, beefy Undead, do it in a Desecrate spell because it doubles the HD.
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
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Go something like this:
Go Dual Cursed Oracle if you want, but not required.
lvl1Oracle1 Spell Focus (Necromancy), Revelation: Undead Servitude
First Bucket: Undead Servitude
Max HD Undead = your Level, which atm is 1HD
lvl2O2
lvl3O3 Spell Specialization (Lesser Animate Dead), Revelation: Spirit Vessels
lvl4O4
lvl5O5 Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy), if you go Dual Cursed, pick Any Revelation you want here.
lvl6O6 (Now you get Animate Dead, Switch Spell Specialization to Animate Dead)
Second Bucket: Animate Dead
Animate Dead Bucket should be CL9 x 6HD = 54HD, and no single Undead can be greater than 18HD, a single Undead created in a Desecrate can be 36HD
Undead Servitude Bucket should be 6HD.
lvl7AotG1 Undead Master
Undead Servitude is now 11 HD
Animate Dead Bucket should be CL10 x 6HD + 6HD(AotG1) = 66HD, a Single Undead from Animate Dead can now be 28HD, or 56HD if animate it in a Desecrate.
Your Max HD for Animate Dead gets counted Twice for each level of AotG you take, so instead of 6HD/level, it's now 12HD/level for these next 5 levels of AotG.
lvl8AotG2
lvl9AotG3 Heighten Spell
Why Heighten? Because you don't want your Command Undead spells to fail, and sometimes you have to ensure that with taking higher level slots.
lvl10AotG4
lvl11AotG5 Extend Spell, use Secrets of Death to pick up Command Undead from the Wizard/Sorc list
Third Bucket: Command Undead
Start preparing multiple Heightened Extended Command Undead spells as 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells each day, and cast it on every Undead you can create/find. Your Extended Command Undead lasts 3 days/level, so recast it on them as it falls off. It should last 33 days starting now, so get a metric butt ton of Undead and keep recasting it on them as soon as the spell duration expires, otherwise they'll attack you and you might have to destroy them. And this causes sad Necromancer noises. You can also use this spell to pick up anything that goes "over" your Animate Dead bucket.
Your Undead Servitude bucket is now 15HD.
Your Animate Dead bucket is now 14CL x 6HD + 30HD(AotG5) = 114HD, a single Undead can be 36HD, or 72HD if you animate it in a Desecrate.
lvl12O7 Any Revelation
lvl13O8 Any Metamagic Feat
lvl14O9
lvl15O10 Spell Perfection (Animate Dead)
Undead Servitude is 19HD
Animate Dead Bucket is now 21CL x 6HD = 126HD max, a single Undead can be 50HD, or 100HD if you animate it in a Desecrate.
Extended Command Undead now lasts for 45 days.
All of your Animate Dead casts are based upon your Caster Level, so these above numbers are based on class abilities and feats alone, and not items. Get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone and Prayer Beads of Karma to boost your CL, and these numbers will all go up.
As far as a simple equation for figuring out how big and beefy you can make a single undead with Animate Dead, it's:
[(Caster Level + 4Undead Master)x2] x2 again if Desecrate
Go something like this:
Go Dual Cursed Oracle if you want, but not required.
lvl1Oracle1 Spell Focus (Necromancy), Revelation: Undead Servitude
First Bucket: Undead Servitude
Max HD Undead = your Level, which atm is 1HD
lvl2O2
lvl3O3 Spell Specialization (Lesser Animate Dead), Revelation: Spirit Vessels
lvl4O4
lvl5O5 Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy), if you go Dual Cursed, pick Any Revelation you want here.
lvl6O6 (Now you get Animate Dead, Switch Spell Specialization to Animate Dead)
Second Bucket: Animate Dead
Animate Dead Bucket should be CL9 x 6HD = 54HD, and no single Undead can be greater than 18HD, a single Undead created in a Desecrate can be 36HD
Undead Servitude Bucket should be 6HD.lvl7AotG1 Undead Master
Undead Servitude is now 11 HD
Animate Dead Bucket should be CL10 x 6HD + 6HD(AotG1) = 66HD, a Single Undead from Animate Dead can now be 28HD, or 56HD if animate it in a Desecrate.
Your Max HD for Animate Dead gets counted Twice for each level of AotG you take, so instead of 6HD/level, it's now 12HD/level for these next 5 levels of AotG.lvl8AotG2
lvl9AotG3 Heighten Spell
Why Heighten? Because you don't want your Command Undead spells to fail, and sometimes you have to ensure that with taking higher level slots.lvl10AotG4
lvl11AotG5 Extend Spell, use Secrets of Death to pick up Command Undead from the Wizard/Sorc list
Third Bucket: Command Undead
Start preparing multiple Heightened Extended Command Undead spells as 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells each day, and cast it on every Undead you can create/find. Your Extended Command Undead lasts 3 days/level, so recast it on them as it falls off. It should last 33 days starting now, so get a metric butt ton of Undead and keep recasting it on them as soon as the spell duration expires, otherwise they'll attack you and you might have to destroy them. And this causes sad Necromancer noises. You can also use this spell to pick up anything that goes "over"...
I found a similar concept online but it went Juju Oracle 4/Wizard 3/Agent 5/MT 8 this build allowed 242 HD of undead with spell perfection.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/4ljkt d/guide_minmax_the_truest_necromancer_a_guide_to/
That page doesn't exist, can you check the address again and repost? I'd like to see it :)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/4ljkt d/guide_minmax_the_truest_necromancer_a_guide_to/
This one worked for me but to save time I’ll try to copy page directly:
Classes
Now the the meat and potatoes of the build.
Build Snapshot
Not necessarily taken in this order.
Oracle, [Juju Mystery] (4)/Wizard, [Necromancy School] (3)/Mystic Theurge (8)/Agent of the Grave (5)
Juju Oracle (4) - With the Spirit Vessels revelation, we raise the control limit of Animate Dead to 6 HD per Caster Level instead of 4, and gain the [[Command Undead feat]] for free.
Wizard [Necromancy School] (3) - Wizard gains Power Over Undead which functions similarly to the Command Undead feat.
Mystic Theurge (8) - This is where the build really comes online. Mystic Theurge ups the caster level of both Oracle and Wizard at the same time with only one level. This makes a single MT level worth 10HD of undead, 4 HD from Wizard and 6 HD from Oracle.
Agent of the Grave (5) - Agent of the Grave is really the garnish on our necrotic dish. If we apply all of our Agent of the Grave levels to Oracle, each level is worth 12 HD of undead. It also has some nice abilities that come with it, such as Unholy Fortitude, which allows us to use CHA instead of CON for our HP bonus at each level. This makes it desirable to take early on to maximize it's effectiveness.
Skills
Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Bluff, and Diplomacy are our more important skills so that we can qualify for AotG and MT, explanations on bluff and diplomacy later. After that, Spellcraft, Perception, and Use Magic Device. As always, after putting ranks into the skills we need for prerequisites, we put 1 rank into our class skills to get that sweet, sweet bonus.
Feats
Before I started doing research for this build, I had thought that there weren't any feats that would benefit a true undead-controlling necromancer. I was so, so very wrong.
Spell Focus (Necromancy) - A prerequisite.
Spell Specialization (Animate Dead) - Treats our CL as two levels higher for the level-variable effects of the spell. The wording on this is very important, as it doesn't just increase your CL when casting the spell, but will also raise our control limit.
Spell Perfection (Animate Dead) - Let's us apply metamagic to Animate Dead without affecting it's level or casting time, but more importantly, it doubles the numerical bonuses applied by other feats.
[[3 Metamagic Feats]] - To qualify for Spell Perfection, we need any 3 metamagic feats. I would definitely take Reach for long range animation.
Charnel Soldiers - Wowowowow. Let's you share a teamwork feat that you have with ALL of your undead. Plenty of options here for a more versatile and deadly undead army. List of good teamwork feats to use this with to come.
Undead Master - While it doesn't increase the HD of undead that you can control, it does double the duration of the [[Command Undead (spell)]], which becomes very important later.
Experimental Caster - If you can swing it by your DM and want to mess around with wordcasting, I'd pick up this feat for the Undeath word. You gain access to it a level earlier than Animate Dead and it has no material component cost. However, the argument could be made that all of our spell specific feats would not apply.
Traits
There are actually some extremely powerful traits for the True Necromancer.
Magical Knack (Oracle) - It only applies to one class, but a +2 CL will net us 12 HD of undead. Since we're utilizing PrCs, our CL isn't going to be equal to our character's HD, making this trait AMAZING for us.
Spells
Animate Dead, Lesser - Use this until we gain access to Animate Dead.
Animate Dead - The bread and butter of the build. This is the spell that makes Mystic Theurge viable. Who cares about losing spell casting levels when our best spell is level 3? The true value of Animate Dead comes from the variant undead. Bloody Skeletons are probably the best variant undead from the list, since it protects our investments. Fast zombies are a close second, as you can animate flying creatures and have them retain their flying, and since we're a Juju Oracle, these zombies will have MAXIMUM HP.
Create Undead - Typically, people will tell you to stay away from Create Undead since the created undead do not automatically fall under you control. However, with Juju Zombies, they retain all of their class levels they had in life and are a free-willed, thinking creature. This is subject to DM approval, as with all things, but I would interpret that as their creator, you would be able to use some Diplomacy to convince the new creature that it is in it's best interest to follow you. The same could go for the rest of the undead on the create undead list.
Command Undead (spell, of course) - This is actually a lot more powerful than I had originally thought. Upon reading the spell description again, I saw that unintelligent undead get no saving throw against Command Undead. In addition, there is no HD limit. For example, this spell works equally on a 1 HD human skeleton as it does a 36 HD skeleton Cthulhu. Say we take control of 20 HD skeleton. If we use every spell slot available to us at level 20 to take control of 20 HD skeletons, that's 240 HD worth of skeletons from Command Undead alone, and it lasts for TWELVE DAYS at level 20. Our spell slots obviously reset each day, so there's massive exponential growth to be had here if you can keep track of when each skeleton will fall out of your control.
Desecrate - Allows us to animate more undead with a single casting.
Blood Money - If you don't want to fool around with wordcasting for fear that you'd lower your HD limit from feats and traits, then this spell is a must-have. Completely negate the large material component costs for Desecrate and Animate dead at the nigh negligible cost of STR damage.
The Math
This Build
Oracle Animation Bucket (Oracle 4/Mystic Theurge 8/Agent of the Grave 5/+2CL from traits/+4CL from feats/+1CL from Ioun Stone) - 174 HD
Oracle Command Undead (feat) - 19 HD
Wizard Animation Bucket (Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 8/+4CL from feats/+1CL from Ioun Stone) - 64 HD
Wizard Power Over Undead SU - 12 HD
Total Permanent Undead Controlled: 242 HD (Assuming Command Undead and Power Over Undead are controlling unintelligent undead.)
There is the possibility of several hundred more HD worth of undead through the Command Undead Spell when targeting unintelligent undead.
That's pretty cool :) I did a similar build a couple years ago with Juju4/GravewalkerWitch3/AotG5/MT8
The Occultist Necromancy Implement has the Necromantic Servant power. It summons one fairly beefy skeleton or zombie. It's pretty cool and avoids a lot of the normal hangups over necromancy the setting usually has.
I've been theorycrafting a Barbarian/Occultist multiclass. Since the skeleton/zombie has half your HP, going Barbarian for that D12 hit die and Rage makes for a fairly sturdy undead with decent BAB. Downside is that the more Barbarian levels you take, the weaker the undead becomes, as it only scales on Occultist level.
I've actually made a Necroccultist, and while the build isn't stellar, you can do some fun stuff with it:
- Summon skeleton. Slap the broken scimitar out of its hands, give it a +1 Keen scimitar.
- In combat, give the scimitar whatever-Bane you're fighting.
- Enlarge skeleton with Size Alteration.
- Spend points to keep it alive when it dies (level 5+).
Its AC will never be stellar, though. It's only trained in light armour and it has a DEX of 14, so it's still cannon fodder. It hits like a truck, though.
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That's pretty cool :) I did a similar build a couple years ago with Juju4/GravewalkerWitch3/AotG5/MT8
I use your build as an example of the "quintessential Necromancer"...
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What the WHAT now? Are you telling me that, before I even worry about PrC levels, a level 6 Juju Oracle with the right Revelations and Feats can animate 54HD worth of undead, no one of which can be more than 18HD (36HD in a Desecrate)?
So... a mid-level "boss" type villain could have around them 6 9HD zombies? Like, WHAT? Making these Fast Zombies wouldn't even be that hard; the oracle might also have Remove Paralysis as a level 2 spell. That's 6 9HD Fast Zombies all loyal to the villain that doesn't have to do anything but buff and "heal" the zombies in a fight against the PCs?
I have been running boss fights wrong for years in this game.
Yeah....the game system breaks down when you start min max builds, especially if the GM starts to do it for their enemy NPCs.
Sure a character of X level can do the thing, but in reality the combat is a number of enemies of Z level + 1 of X level and you should attempt to calculate CR that way.
What the WHAT now? Are you telling me that, before I even worry about PrC levels, a level 6 Juju Oracle with the right Revelations and Feats can animate 54HD worth of undead, no one of which can be more than 18HD (36HD in a Desecrate)?
So... a mid-level "boss" type villain could have around them 6 9HD zombies? Like, WHAT? Making these Fast Zombies wouldn't even be that hard; the oracle might also have Remove Paralysis as a level 2 spell. That's 6 9HD Fast Zombies all loyal to the villain that doesn't have to do anything but buff and "heal" the zombies in a fight against the PCs?
I have been running boss fights wrong for years in this game.
Yeah, and the cherry on top is that all your Juju Zombies are unrolled max HP, with +1 HP per HD if you Animate them in a Desecrate. They are certainly beefy. If you don't mind giving your PC's Beads of Karma as a loot drop, you can give the Beads of Karma to your Necromancer for another +4CL on those Animate/Desecrate casts.
If you're going to throw a GM-built truly-optimized mid-lvl Juju Oracle at them, I'd wait til level 7 to do it though because that's the earliest chance you can have Undead Master online, and Undead Master feat cranks your Animate and Command Undead up to CL14 (with spell spec/varisian as well) and level 7 is your 1st lvl of AotG PrC. You get a lot from level 7.
havign a big army's a great build, but i think OP was asking for a quality selection over raw quantity (though having a large bucket/animation cap helps make that, naturally, and your suggestions are very helpful for accomplishing that)
@op: if youre just looking for a small group of big stompy boys, my advice would be to look at 'fast zombie' template for high-HD monsters (since bloody skeletons have an internal HD limitation of 10HD, and normal skeletons 20HD) up to your animate dead (or undeath wordspell if that's your jam, or both via the experimental caster feat) bucket limit.
or as others have suggested, snag a free scaling undead via class feature (such as necromancy implement occultists, shadowdancer shadow minion, or sealbreaker antipaladin mount), and look into grabbing the command undead spell (not the feat) to get one single undead of as high an HD as you want.
if you cant find a giant meatball undead to command, you can always just make one! letting you use dinky regular corpses to create bigger (in this case literally) customizable undead by condensing them down.
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What the WHAT now? Are you telling me that, before I even worry about PrC levels, a level 6 Juju Oracle with the right Revelations and Feats can animate 54HD worth of undead, no one of which can be more than 18HD (36HD in a Desecrate)?
So... a mid-level "boss" type villain could have around them 6 9HD zombies? Like, WHAT? Making these Fast Zombies wouldn't even be that hard; the oracle might also have Remove Paralysis as a level 2 spell. That's 6 9HD Fast Zombies all loyal to the villain that doesn't have to do anything but buff and "heal" the zombies in a fight against the PCs?
I have been running boss fights wrong for years in this game.
an old but helpful guide on encounter design is over here at least.
and yeah, juju oracle, cruoromancer wizard, occultists with the necromancy implement, agent of the grave PrC increasing your level-scaling... there's a good number of classes and PRCs that expand your limits of undead animated/controlled.
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a small note to keep in mind: when applying templates to an animated undead, it increases their EFFECTIVE HD cost to animate them, but doesnt alter their ACTUAL HD to control them (so a 10HD bloody skeleton would cost 20 HD to animate, but only count as 10HD towards the limit of undead you control), unless the template increases their HD (such as the relentless zombie template).
If you're using Heighten Spell to make the Command Undead spell stick, Persistent Spell (metamagic cost +2) is better than 2 levels of Heighten spell in nearly all cases. Of course, as you level up, eventually you're going to want both.
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The reason I posted the max hd build was you don’t have to do an army of 10 hd undead. If you have 242 hd to play with whats to stop you from 2-3 20 hd undead that was to give breathing room on choices.
The reason I posted the max hd build was you don’t have to do an army of 10 hd undead. If you have 242 hd to play with whats to stop you from 2-3 20 hd undead that was to give breathing room on choices.
Well, you're not actually going to have a 100HD undead, you'll have probably a 20HD undead but with 80HD worth of templates put on him, but he still only costs 20HD towards your 6HD/lvl bucket of Animate Dead.
If you want to create big, beefy undeads, JujuOracle + Undead Master feat + AotG + animate/desecrate can max out your Animate Dead's "HD per cast" so you get the most bang for your buck on that 20HD undead that's packed with Zombie Templates.
The reason I posted the max hd build was you don’t have to do an army of 10 hd undead. If you have 242 hd to play with whats to stop you from 2-3 20 hd undead that was to give breathing room on choices.Well, you're not actually going to have a 100HD undead, you'll have probably a 20HD undead but with 80HD worth of templates put on him, but he still only costs 20HD towards your 6HD/lvl bucket of Animate Dead.
If you want to create big, beefy undeads, JujuOracle + Undead Master feat + AotG + animate/desecrate can max out your Animate Dead's "HD per cast" so you get the most bang for your buck on that 20HD undead that's packed with Zombie Templates.
this and this! having a gigantic pool of HD is good for building a massive 'wide' army, or for a small 'tall' army sicne as you two noted, you have a lot more room to fit bigger stuff with bonuses into your pool if it's as large as you can make it (i also feel i didnt make that agreement clear enough in my previous post mcdaygo, apologies there)
cursed zombies (CR+1) are nice to combo with templates like the fast (+0CR) or relentless (CR+1; same as fast zombie, but with +2HD, scent, and a climb speed) zombie types--they make a pretty great way to debuff enemies since multiple zombies can layer on several different curse effects quickly (one for generic -4 attack/saves/checks/skills, one for -str, one for -dex, etc)