Depends on which ones.
Abomination Vaults is fantastic. Strength of Thousands is very good so far. And I have friends playing Fists (and I'm playing myself soon) and it's very fun too.
The first three all seem solid in broad strokes, but have a couple of challenges that the most recent three don't have.
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Does anyone else feel the second edition APs are a bit boring compared the 1st edition? Don't know what it is but they just aren't doing it for me....
1) Paizo folks (JJ in particular) stated they are going down a path lighter in tone with second edition.
2) Alot of newer writer talent on board it looks like. Maybe lesser experienced than your Pett, Logue, Hitchcock, Hodges, etc. older guard of writers.
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I think 2e suffered from a wonky first couple of APs; Age of Ashes was uneven, Extinction Curse felt like its plot was at war with its premise, and Agents of Edgewatch you couldn’t pay me to touch… but folks loved Abomination Vaults, Ruby Phoenix definitely has an audience, and I think Strength of Thousands is one of the most exciting things they’ve ever published.
The upcoming stuff - Quest for the Frozen Flame, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and now Blood Lords - all seems really varied and interesting, which I think should help a fair deal.
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I find the vast majority of PF2 Adventure Paths to be far too... gimmicky? I don't think that's the right term, but it's the one that comes to mind. I prefer APs that allow almost any party to come into it and enjoy the adventure, but most of the 2e APs are too focused on theming the party into very specific tropes. I saw this among many of the 1e APs as well (Skulls & Shackles, Hell's Vengeance, and so on), but there seemed to be less focus in constraining the PCs participating to me.
Abomination Vaults is the one that's come the closest to being interesting to me, but literally none of the other APs since the start of 2e (or the announced ones) have interested me that much (though Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is mildly intriguing). Which is fine, because they aren't just for me. I have a friend who commented that he 'must die of happiness' when he saw the Alkenstar AP, and I'm happy he got what he wanted.
But... the lack of APs that interest me as a player or GM is driving me away from 2e. Maybe Quest for the Frozen Flame will be better once more is announced, but at present I'm distinctly unimpressed with the 2e APs. Add to that my... extreme, visceral dislike of what was done to Summoner in 2e, and I'm pretty skeptical. Paizo burnt pretty much all of my goodwill since Pathfinder 1e launched in the last year.
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FWIW, I quite prefer APs that have a firm premise and expectations for PCs to fit; having a thematically tight package is the whole reason I’m buying someone else’s campaign.
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It would be cool if Paizo did a "Pathfinder Legends' AP line continuing 1e alongside 2e stuff. It might not be feasible but a cool in theory though.
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FWIW, I quite prefer APs that have a firm premise and expectations for PCs to fit; having a thematically tight package is the whole reason I’m buying someone else’s campaign.
I think a lot of the super themed APs from PF1e are also the ones that sold best, or at least are highly spoken of. You can only thread the broad dungeon fantasy heroes path so often, I guess.
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Honestly, I don't really mind that much that I'm not as much of the target audience for the APs of late, just mildly disappointed. Not every AP appeals to everyone (for instance, I despise Cheliax with the fury of a thousand suns, but I really just... ignored things for a year), so it's a matter of waiting until something comes around that I like most of the time. I've just noticed that the gaps between what I like seem longer in Pathfinder 2e.
Another aspect is that the tightly-themed APs drive me away, because characters I would want to play don't fit into them easily, unless they match the theme perfectly from the beginning. Like, Strength of Thousands has an interesting setting, but I have absolutely no interest in the 'magic school' aspect of it.
Mostly, this is something I've been mulling over for months, trying to figure out, and this thread seemed more reasonable to give my feedback in.
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Another aspect is that the tightly-themed APs drive me away, because characters I would want to play don't fit into them easily, unless they match the theme perfectly from the beginning.
I agree with this specific train of thought. When I was in the planning stages of Carrion Crown, one of my players wanted to be a Dhampir Rogue becoming a Red Mantis Assassin eventually. It would have been easier in just about any other AP until I came up with an idea to tie his backstory to Ramoska Arkiminos (CC#5) as a past experiment/sleeper mutation (when the PrC kicked in) when he was in Ilmazagorti or something along those lines.
1e APs were fairly easy to incorporate all sorts of PC concepts even if they didn't fit well with the campaign. Having only read some of the first 3 2E APs, I could see the bug/humanoid concept as a good fit from the start with the Circus themed campaign, the others would take some tinkering but it's not impossible.
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Honestly, I don't really mind that much that I'm not as much of the target audience for the APs of late, just mildly disappointed. Not every AP appeals to everyone (for instance, I despise Cheliax with the fury of a thousand suns, but I really just... ignored things for a year), so it's a matter of waiting until something comes around that I like most of the time. I've just noticed that the gaps between what I like seem longer in Pathfinder 2e.
Another aspect is that the tightly-themed APs drive me away, because characters I would want to play don't fit into them easily, unless they match the theme perfectly from the beginning. Like, Strength of Thousands has an interesting setting, but I have absolutely no interest in the 'magic school' aspect of it.
Mostly, this is something I've been mulling over for months, trying to figure out, and this thread seemed more reasonable to give my feedback in.
I personally am in category of believing APs with stronger themes tend to be stronger APs. Like Curse of the Crimson Throne is probably best AP of the ones without "party theme" and... Yeah that is pretty much it, all other top 5 1e aps tend to have some sort of theme on what the ap is about. Iron Gods, Hell's Rebels, Kingmaker, War for the Crown...
But yeah, I recommend that you check out Malevolence module because its awesome. I suspect lot of future standalone modules might be more of your taste since 2e direction for future standalone modules seems to be less... I don't want to say "filler content", but it pretty much describes what I'm looking for: they feel content wise more meaningful than just "hey here is single random dungeon"
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Soon we will have Blood Lords AP where PCs save Geb (the undead nation) in the middle of undead politics.
How does that sound ?
That actually sounds pretty awesome. I'd like to see another AP set in Numeria as well.
Outlaws of Alkenstar could be really good. Hopefully it won't be some cheesy copy of a bunch of western tropes and be something unique.
Strength of Thousands sounded really cool when it was originally announced but now it just seems like Harry Potter in the jungle...
I heard it isn't really like Harry Potter though since 1) no boarding school 2) everyone is adult and that its more college education sort of dealio, is it in practice different?
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I personally am in category of believing APs with stronger themes tend to be stronger APs. Like Curse of the Crimson Throne is probably best AP of the ones without "party theme" and... Yeah that is pretty much it, all other top 5 1e aps tend to have some sort of theme on what the ap is about. Iron Gods, Hell's Rebels, Kingmaker, War for the Crown...
But yeah, I recommend that you check out Malevolence module because its awesome. I suspect lot of future standalone modules might be more of your taste since 2e direction for future standalone modules seems to be less... I don't want to say "filler content", but it pretty much describes what I'm looking for: they feel content wise more meaningful than just "hey here is single random dungeon"
*writes this line after a bit of typing* I want to state, I do not think my opinions are, or should be universal, they're simply true for me, and I'm writing this as an attempt to explain.
Maybe they're stronger for other people, but not for me. Honestly, though, two of your top five don't register as ones that I have issues with. Yes, Iron Gods is tightly themed, but the theme is more on the setting, not the makeup of the characters involved. Kingmaker is a bit more constrained, but not really to me (ironically, that campaign went great for my group... right up until it hit the kingdom building, where it fell apart). It always felt to me that almost any character I could come up with would fit reasonably well into them.
Comparatively, Extinction Curse is all about the circus for the initial characters, which constrains a lot more in my mind. Strength of Thousands is very constrained by its basic design. Agents of Edgewatch I discarded because I hate police procedurals to begin with. Age of Ashes... honestly, the setup wasn't too bad, but I didn't care for the 'world tour' aspect. I intend to repurpose some of the individual chapters, though, particularly the second volume (loved the elves of the Expanse, but I'm a sucker for elves). I'm prepping to play in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, so it's looking... alright. At least a tournament is pretty flexible where character concepts are concerned. The Alkenstar AP and Geb one just don't appeal to me at all. I hate undead characters, and am not fond of black powder guns in my fantasy... unless I'm doing pirates or Victoriana/Steampunk, which I'm fully aware doesn't make logical sense (and I hate that fact).
Malevolence is an adventure I've been tempted by, though. I've been wary, though, since horror (and cosmic horror) really isn't my thing.
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Strength of Thousands sounded really cool when it was originally announced but now it just seems like Harry Potter in the jungle...
Harry Potter is a boarding school magic student story, and is very married to its particular British flavor; an indigenous African-inspired magic school with adult students who spend 4 of the AP's six volumes as accomplished mages and teachers is hardly the same thing. I'd also push back on "in the jungle," seeing as you spend books 1 and 2 in the city of Nantambu, book 3 is up in the Sodden Lands, book 4 is dealing with the city of Mzali and what I assume is a certain hidden village, and book 5 is going somewhere really stellar... there's not a lot of jungle happening.
Give it a chance. I loathe Harry Potter, and Afrofantasy that's more than just hacking through undergrowth and robbing from ancient ruins is something the RPG space has vanishingly little of.
Also, the next two 1-10s sound killer!
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I personally am in category of believing APs with stronger themes tend to be stronger APs. Like Curse of the Crimson Throne is probably best AP of the ones without "party theme" and... Yeah that is pretty much it, all other top 5 1e aps tend to have some sort of theme on what the ap is about. Iron Gods, Hell's Rebels, Kingmaker, War for the Crown...
But yeah, I recommend that you check out Malevolence module because its awesome. I suspect lot of future standalone modules might be more of your taste since 2e direction for future standalone modules seems to be less... I don't want to say "filler content", but it pretty much describes what I'm looking for: they feel content wise more meaningful than just "hey here is single random dungeon"
*writes this line after a bit of typing* I want to state, I do not think my opinions are, or should be universal, they're simply true for me, and I'm writing this as an attempt to explain.
Maybe they're stronger for other people, but not for me. Honestly, though, two of your top five don't register as ones that I have issues with. Yes, Iron Gods is tightly themed, but the theme is more on the setting, not the makeup of the characters involved. Kingmaker is a bit more constrained, but not really to me (ironically, that campaign went great for my group... right up until it hit the kingdom building, where it fell apart). It always felt to me that almost any character I could come up with would fit reasonably well into them.
Comparatively, Extinction Curse is all about the circus for the initial characters, which constrains a lot more in my mind. Strength of Thousands is very constrained by its basic design. Agents of Edgewatch I discarded because I hate police procedurals to begin with. Age of Ashes... honestly, the setup wasn't too bad, but I didn't care for the 'world tour' aspect. I intend to repurpose some of the individual chapters, though, particularly the second volume (loved the elves of the Expanse, but I'm a sucker...
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to debate your opinion and win an argument, I just find it fun to talk about opinions
Ah that might affect how you enjoy Malevolence then. Still though I thought besides the haunted mansion angle, it was also really enjoyable mystery/investigation adventure on finding out what happened in the house and what is actually going on :D
(but yeah for me its bit of opposite. I find it fun to make character that fits the ap rather than "I want to be able to play this idea in any ap". That and... I uh, don't honestly get the idea that even the "generic" campaigns really can fit any character in them.
Like one of my players for my Crimson Throne was "catfolk who went through horrible drug addiction because of the dude party is getting revenge on, so now he is Drug PSA Monk tiger". They had fun in the campaign and character wasn't joke character despite the joke, but I don't really see how that "fits" the campaign overall even with Korvosa having some drug problems. Or rather, is that a concept you could actually fit in "any" ap? Rise of the Runelords is another ap where there are no party themes, but having former drug addict on crusade vs drugs feels random for it.)
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to debate your opinion and win an argument, I just find it fun to talk about opinions
Ah that might affect how you enjoy Malevolence then. Still though I thought besides the haunted mansion angle, it was also really enjoyable mystery/investigation adventure on finding out what happened in the house and what is actually going on :D
(but yeah for me its bit of opposite. I find it fun to make character that fits the ap rather than "I want to be able to play this idea in any ap". That and... I uh, don't honestly get the idea that even the "generic" campaigns really can fit any character in them.
Like one of my players for my Crimson Throne was "catfolk who went through horrible drug addiction because of the dude party is getting revenge on, so now he is Drug PSA Monk tiger". They had fun in the campaign and character wasn't joke character despite the joke, but I don't really see how that "fits" the campaign overall even with Korvosa having some drug problems. Or rather, is that a concept you could actually fit in "any" ap? Rise of the Runelords is another ap where there are no party themes, but having former drug addict on crusade vs drugs feels random for it.)
I was interested in Malevolence until I found out about that there were some Dominion of the Black themes, yeah. I have considered it a few times even with that knowledge, but instead I'm working (very slowly) on a Victoriana Steampunk campaign that's going to be pretty ridiculous. Not really on-topic here, though.
For me, it isn't that it needs to fit any option, but a wide range of options. Like you said, the drug addict on a crusade would be kind of jarring in most any AP that I can think of. I'd say my quick rule of thumb is that if less than half of my RPG characters could easily fit into a campaign without having to significantly alter their personality/background, it isn't for me. Not all of my characters would want to found a kingdom, not all would want to deal with high technology, some of them would be terrified of the ocean, some wouldn't want to explore ancient tombs... yeah. In particular, in Pathfinder 2e so far, only Age of Ashes, Abomination Vaults, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, and Strength of Thousands pass that basic test.
In particular, in Pathfinder 2e so far, only Age of Ashes, Abomination Vaults, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, and Strength of Thousands pass that basic test.
So… all of them except Extinction Curse and Agents of Edgewatch? If 4/6 released products work for you, I’m not sure I understand what the problem is with 2e APs.
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In particular, in Pathfinder 2e so far, only Age of Ashes, Abomination Vaults, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, and Strength of Thousands pass that basic test.So… all of them except Extinction Curse and Agents of Edgewatch? If 4/6 released products work for you, I’m not sure I understand what the problem is with 2e APs.
The discussion drifted to slightly different subjects. Of the APs I'd be willing to run or play in, only Abomination Vaults is on the list of ones I'd run, and I'm barely willing to play in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. I had to discard the first two characters I wanted to play for Fists of the Ruby Phoenix because they wouldn't fit what the GM wanted for the campaign (or the general theme). Strength of Thousands is pretty much a 'negative interest level' for me due to the magic school aspect, and Age of Ashes spends too much time bouncing around the Inner Sea for my taste.
Creative Director
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What I'm mostly hearing here is that our current methods of doing multiple Adventure Paths a year and varying the contents and themes and stories continues to be the right call. By doing 3 part Adventure Paths, we can get even more diversity and variance into the campaigns, so that should further help fight against situations where two back-to-back Adventure Paths aren't something a single person isn't into. Certainly, having played some of them myself, the fact that they take longer to play than to publish (although not usually longer to play than to create AND publish) helps as well, and with each new one we create, that builds the backlog of workable options up.
That said, what's MOST helpful to me and the rest of the Adventure Path developers in gauging what upcoming stories to focus on is to hear what people WANT, rather than what they don't want. It's not only more positive (and thus more pleasant and thus more inspiring to read—hope no one is surprised that if a developer reads too much complaints, chances are good they'll stop reading and just abandon the feedback process), but knowing what worked well is more important than what didn't. Especially since the internet is never short to let us know about the latter when it comes to product feedback!
Stuff like "I loved Iron Gods and want a sequal" or "I've long wanted an Adventure Path to be set in and around Mediogalti" or "I'd love to see an adventure path where the entire party are worshipers of Sarenrae" and so on help to build rather than deconstruct.
Thanks again for all the feedback!
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That said, what's MOST helpful to me and the rest of the Adventure Path developers in gauging what upcoming stories to focus on is to hear what people WANT, rather than what they don't want. It's not only more positive (and thus more pleasant and thus more inspiring to read—hope no one is surprised that if a developer reads too much complaints, chances are good they'll stop reading and just abandon the feedback process), but knowing what worked well is more important than what didn't. Especially since the internet is never short to let us know about the latter when it comes to product feedback!I'm never really sure what I want, which is a useless answer I know.
For example I wasn't interested in The Ruby Phoenix when it was announced but after reading it I think it's a great AP.So I guess my response is... surprise me?
We'll certainly continue to try to do so, but feedback like this—"I wasn't interested in Ruby Phoenix but after reading it I think it's a great AP"—is better feedback than "I was interested in this before it was announced." Because it helps to justify and bolster our own senses of what folks enjoy, even if they don't know they'll enjoy it until they read it.
Because THAT is a very real part of the job as well—anticipating what sorts of things might be successful based on years of watching how folks react to other things we've done.
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Alright then.
I want to see an AP which depicts the elves of Kyonin correctly, rather than the way that they were introduced in Second Darkness. I want to see an AP with more elves, I loved seeing the society in Part 2 of Age of Ashes, even if it didn't really fix the depiction issues from back in early Pathfinder.
I would love to see a Darklands based AP, especially if it involves the dwarven sky citadels or the like. Abomination Vaults and Age of Ashes whetted my appetite, but there wasn't enough for me to truly work off of.
I'd love to see a planar campaign, though I know that one would be hard to manage. This is pretty low on my personal list, though.
I would love to see Holomog. It's an area which fascinated me when I heard about it, and I'd love to see it. I love to have my characters travel to new places, and see new wonders. It's why I love playing foreigners in campaigns rather than locals, for that 'experience' of seeing things through new eyes.
I also love playing in campaigns where the characters are rising up against a great evil. Rise of the Runelords, Return of the Runelords, Hell's Rebels, Wrath of the Righteous... things where you're fighting against something that's unambiguously evil, and where who/what your character is is less important than the overall goal. I like having my character being the person who happens to be in the right place at the right time.
That's what I'd particularly love to see in adventures.
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I'm generally more interested in the Adventure Paths that have a weird theme, in contrast to Cydeth. (Although one of my favorites is still Curse of the Crimson Throne, and that doesn't have a unifying theme.) To me, so far, there's nothing in 2e that hits quite the same as Ruins of Azlant, Skull & Shackles, or Strange Aeons. The themes of the 2e adventures have felt somewhat... generic?
Maybe I should read through Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. I'm not terribly interested in a martial arts tournament campaign, but maybe it's better in practice than what I'm imagining.
I think my players at this point would riot if we started another campaign below level 5, so I'll ask for more high-level adventures, please.
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Put me down for a Mediogalti ap. Either against the Assassins or as I would rather see, one where you become them. I would LOVE to see Stregth of Thousands, Assassin School Edition
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I'm not going to comparatively argue APs for PF2 vs Pathfinder, one way or the other -- it seems obvious to me that it's ALL THE SAME. I mean, it's still Paizo, still Mona, still Jacobs, and then a well experienced design coordinator working with six volume-authors. Nothing's changed in the big picture for adventure design -- just small tweaks here and there over the years as gaming culture evolves. The exact same Paizo that made Pathfinder APs is the one making the APs for PF2.
But on a simpler note -- for those of you comparing PF2 with Pathfinder, and giving examples in support of your arguments -- please don't forget to acknowledge the obvious:
There are a staggering 144 volumes of Pathfinder AP adventures.
There are a meager 26 volumes of PF2 AP adventures.
How in the name of Aroden's armpit sweat can you compare the content from 144 volumes to that of 26?!
I mean, of course one could find argument for 26 specific volumes of Pathfinder AP that are greater than all the PF2 AP material. Likewise, of course one can find 26 volumes of Pathfinder AP that are considerably weaker than the 26 volumes of PF2.
It's 144-26. ....At least wait for PF2 to get a good 50-60 more volumes before you start comparing.
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As someone who doesn't currently have a lot of interest in Pathfinder's planar stuff, a high level 3-parter focused on them would be really fascinating to see.
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Planar AP where Todd Stewart is the chief design coordinator and also authors the volume 6!
You mean Amber Stewart.
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+1 for the 'You are a group of assassins" concept.
I hope that in 2023 we get another 3-part high level AP, and it'd be very cool if it was a planar one. But it'd have to be something people are passionate about, because I know there's well-reasoned reticence to do that theme.
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I'd like an AP where the tensions between countries are tested. I feel that an Ap that challenges the status quo of nations in the way european conflicts in the 1500-1700 did would be a good brush for Golarion, where a country is simultaneously attacking an enclave of another whilst trading with it in a different place.
Perhaps a bit of a complex idea to simulate, but a mercenary AP could do well here, travelling and taking different contracts for barons, princes, lords and common populace that's banded together to pay a sum.
Exploring how Golarion countries treat each other: Escorting delegations, hampering tax collections in contested territory, blockading a harbour, dealing with corsairs with a letter of marque from a rival country, dealing with monsters in the country side, facing off armies at some point, etc.
How do factions that span all countries fit into all of this?
The wilderness is tough, I always portray Golarion living in a more city state mode and everything in the inmediate surrounding is sort of safe but elsewhere it is tenuous.
Thinking more about it, a wandering mercenary company with a fame subsystem (ala shackles but more robust) could be a fantastic trip, hopefully with the mature and complex writing that some APs have demonstrated with dealing with complicated topics like politics.
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Planar AP where Todd Stewart is the chief design coordinator and also authors the volume 6!
You mean Amber Stewart.
Ah yes, obviously that's what I meant. Just a typo.
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As someone who doesn't currently have a lot of interest in Pathfinder's planar stuff, a high level 3-parter focused on them would be really fascinating to see.
I would be just as happy with a high level 3-part Planar AP.
In this case, Amber Stewart should be the Design Coordinator and only write three of the volumes!
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How about a 'Teen Detective' style adventure in the vein of the Scooby Doo, the Hardy Boys, Famous Five or Secret Seven? Book 1 could be dealing with smugglers masquerading as ghostly pirates, book 2 [not sure], before book 3 is spent rescuing fair maiden from a forced wedding to the wicked prince. :D
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I'd like an AP where the tensions between countries are tested. I feel that an Ap that challenges the status quo of nations in the way european conflicts in the 1500-1700 did would be a good brush for Golarion, where a country is simultaneously attacking an enclave of another whilst trading with it in a different place.
Perhaps a bit of a complex idea to simulate, but a mercenary AP could do well here, travelling and taking different contracts for barons, princes, lords and common populace that's banded together to pay a sum.
Exploring how Golarion countries treat each other: Escorting delegations, hampering tax collections in contested territory, blockading a harbour, dealing with corsairs with a letter of marque from a rival country, dealing with monsters in the country side, facing off armies at some point, etc.
How do factions that span all countries fit into all of this?
The wilderness is tough, I always portray Golarion living in a more city state mode and everything in the inmediate surrounding is sort of safe but elsewhere it is tenuous.Thinking more about it, a wandering mercenary company with a fame subsystem (ala shackles but more robust) could be a fantastic trip, hopefully with the mature and complex writing that some APs have demonstrated with dealing with complicated topics like politics.
the way to do that would be Brevoy AP, where the players are a mercenary band in the service of one of the factions. You'd gradually move from caravan guard to strike force to diplomat to [theoretically] the lords and ladies of the land.
Similar to how the Galt adventure is going to tie up that country's ongoing civil chaos the Brevoy AP would do something similar up north.
A high-level 3-part AP either in the Darklands or as a Planar AP would be amazing. Honestly, I know for most groups the 3-part Level 1-10 APs will be more appropriate, and Paizo is probably gonna make more APs on that end of the spectrum. But Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is SO good BECAUSE it's high level 11-20. And I wanna see what adventures we can do to when the expected level is high to begin with!
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A high-level 3-part AP either in the Darklands or as a Planar AP would be amazing. Honestly, I know for most groups the 3-part Level 1-10 APs will be more appropriate, and Paizo is probably gonna make more APs on that end of the spectrum. But Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is SO good BECAUSE it's high level 11-20. And I wanna see what adventures we can do to when the expected level is high to begin with!
Darklands AP would be amazing that explores it a little bit more than the railroad scenarios.
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Mentioned this before, but I'd love an adventure path about the effort to restore Sarkoris in the aftermath of the closing of the Worldwound and the departure of many of the crusaders. I also think an AP exploring Razmir (either working for or against him) would be neat, or one based in the eastern Mwangi Expanse based around the ancient Shory Empire.