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I don't get it. Why do literary characters from books that are not based on RPGs need to be straitjacketed into game terms at all?
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I think it's weak argument and misses the entire point of who those characters are and how you would build them if you transferred them to a higher powered system than Lord of the Rings.
It's not a weak argument. It's pointing out that your assumption as to what a literary character is is incorrect.
When you talk about the "game world" of Middle Earth, Aragorn does not need to be 20th level. In a different "game world" for D&D/other D20 rules, a 20th level character based on Aragorn is no longer Aragorn as much as a nascent demi-god that uses Aragorn as flavor.
Stating "[Aragorn] was already 20th level" in the Lord of the Rings is at best sloppy reasoning/communication and at worst trolling.
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The rules of d20/D&D/Pathfinder simply do not apply to the world of Middle-Earth. It makes no sense trying to force that corset on the narrative.
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Something that is designed to work as a game generally is not going to be compatible with a book, tv series, etc. which has no reason to behave like a game.
Something like Pathfinder has to be structured with the consideration "why don't we just go beat up the dragon right now" by making it a near-term impossibility, they will ratchet up in power so it's eventually fait accompli. The reason characters in a book do not immediately beeline to the thing that ends the threat for a lot of reasons that aren't necessarily translatable to a game (e.g. Aragorn does not want to admit he's the heir, and thereby lose his solitary life as a ranger.)
There have been some decent fantasy series literally based on the author's elfgame roleplaying settings (possibly with the serial numbers filed off), but even those don't have the same sort of "leveling up" and "loot progression" that is part and parcel to the game experience.
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Wasn’t this thread about 2e adventure paths?
I think it's weak argument and misses the entire point of who those characters are and how you would build them if you transferred them to a higher powered system than Lord of the Rings.It's not a weak argument. It's pointing out that your assumption as to what a literary character is is incorrect.
When you talk about the "game world" of Middle Earth, Aragorn does not need to be 20th level. In a different "game world" for D&D/other D20 rules, a 20th level character based on Aragorn is no longer Aragorn as much as a nascent demi-god that uses Aragorn as flavor.
Stating "[Aragorn] was already 20th level" in the Lord of the Rings is at best sloppy reasoning/communication and at worst trolling.
If you want to transfer a literary character into a new game world with higher powered mechanics, you make them what they are not on the basis of what they can do in the lowered powered world but on the basis of who they are in that world. If you want to make an Aragorn or Gandalf-like character in a PF/D&D world, they are going to be far more powerful.
In a level based system in a Lord of the Rings world, both Gandalf and Aragorn are the highest possible level achievable in that world. They are the greatest heroes of their age and are two of the most powerful and respected characters to exist in the game world.
So we'll just disagree with how you should build literary characters in a level based system. You can go by what they do in a given book and I'll go by their status in the game world.
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Wasn’t this thread about 2e adventure paths?
The OP started off bashing on 2E APs. I myself have not noticed a material difference between 1E and 2E APs other than 2E APs use 2E rules. Other than that I see the same mix of quality in the APs as I saw in 1E. Some I like, some I don't. Play what I like, avoid what I don't.
APs still have plenty interesting to use. Plenty of edgy material as some like to refer to it. Plenty of interesting monsters, items, and extra bits of rules material and lore.
In all honesty, just seems like another thread meant to troll PF2 and put down the new system without providing anything other than an opinion with no factual basis for it.
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Wasn’t this thread about 2e adventure paths?The OP started off bashing on 2E APs. I myself have not noticed a material difference between 1E and 2E APs other than 2E APs use 2E rules. Other than that I see the same mix of quality in the APs as I saw in 1E. Some I like, some I don't. Play what I like, avoid what I don't.
APs still have plenty interesting to use. Plenty of edgy material as some like to refer to it. Plenty of interesting monsters, items, and extra bits of rules material and lore.
In all honesty, just seems like another thread meant to troll PF2 and put down the new system without providing anything other than an opinion with no factual basis for it.
Is this a good reason to continuously bump it with an irrelevant conversation?
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I think the big difference between the 1e APs and the 2e APs is that the 1e ones had some duds early on (Council of Thieves and Serpent's Skull are uninspiring; Jade Regent and Carrion Crown could have used another pass) but were buoyed by the postivity around Paizo's 3.5 APs having two big hits (Runelords and Crimson Throne) and Kingmaker largely working.
2e didn't get a similar boost from the latter 1e APs, and it didn't (for my money) have a massive success in an AP until this last year.
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For my money, the 2e APs have been pretty much gradually improving. I’d rank them
1. Strength of Thousands (unless book 6 is a disaster)
2. Abomination Vaults
3. Fists of the Ruby Phoenix
4. Agents of Edgewatch
5. Age of Ashes
6. Extinction Curse
So if they keep going in this direction, I don’t see much to complain about.
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Having translated and played almost all of 2nd edition APs, this is my (and my group's) wishlist going forward.
1. An AP which is a little heavier in tone. By "heavy" I mean serious, both in theme and NPCs. Something more along the lines of Hell's Rebels, Reign of Winter, and so on. I would not rather *every* AP to be this heavy though, just one.
2. A mix of old-school and new entry writers for APs. I appreciate the work all the new writers put into recent APs, but I also have a deep appreciation for Logue, Pett, Hitchcock, and so on. I would like to see more diversity in the writers' roster for the APs.
3. A viking-themed AP. We had Jade Regent passing through the Lands of the Linnorm Kings once, and Reign of Winter set in Irrisen, with several ties to the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. But I (we) would love to see an entire AP devoted to Paizo's takes on vikings.
4. Some scenes with a bit more edge. I know that having a Shayliss Vinder kind of scene might be too much nowadays, and that even a Foxglove-like obsession could prove a little too disturbing today, but I believe that it is possible to evoke similarly involving scenes while being politically correct.
5. A more dynamic approach to dungeons. I would like the enemies in dungeons to interact a bit more than just "if the PCs make too much noise here, the urdefhans in area A12 come investigating in 1d4 rounds." I know this is a complex one, but it is on my wishlist nonetheless.
6. Keep experimenting with the shorter APs. The way we all play RPGs is changing, and we find the new format much more suited to our needs. We cannot afford to play 5+ hours/week anymore, and longer APs, although immensely enticing, just stay that, because it would take us two to three years to just complete one.
7. Keep exploring new ways of implementing APs with virtual tabletops and shorter game sessions.
8. And more importantly, keep up the good work and thank you for allowing us to tell such wonderful tales through the years!
Having translated and played almost all of 2nd edition APs...
6. Keep experimenting with the shorter APs. The way we all play RPGs is changing, and we find the new format much more suited to our needs. We cannot afford to play 5+ hours/week anymore, and longer APs, although immensely enticing, just stay that, because it would take us two to three years to just complete one.
So how'd you play them all in the time since they started being released?
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So how'd you play them all in the time since they started being released?Having translated and played almost all of 2nd edition APs...
6. Keep experimenting with the shorter APs. The way we all play RPGs is changing, and we find the new format much more suited to our needs. We cannot afford to play 5+ hours/week anymore, and longer APs, although immensely enticing, just stay that, because it would take us two to three years to just complete one.
If we had maintained the same playing schedule as we used to before unfortunate circumstances caused us to cut short our time, my table would definitely have been able to play the released 2e APs fully. Not counting SoT, because book 6 still doesnt exist.
We used to play Friday/Sat/Sunday, about 6-7 hours each day. Lots of fun!
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So how'd you play them all in the time since they started being released?
The larger ones (such as Age of Ashes and Agents of Edgewatch), we didn't finish because our group went different ways before the end. We arrived at a reasonable point though (4 of 6, and 5 of 6 respectively) and then narrated the ending.
We didn't play Extinction Curse, since the theme was not appealing to us, but we finished both Abomination Vaults and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. We are gearing up towards Strenghts of Thousands now, but we are a little scared because of the time requirements. We are trying a smaller group, hoping to play more frequently. Wish us luck!Sometimes we had to cut here and there to make the game go quicker. We are also a tight-knight group, we have been playing together since Rise of the Runelords. Our turns in combat can be very fast.
But not being able to finish all the APs we played is exactly the reason why I think shorter APs are better suited for my group.
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We used to play Friday/Sat/Sunday, about 6-7 hours each day. Lots of fun!
Geez, I consider it a huge success if my group meets twice a month for a total of twelve hours or so.
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I hope the number of low-level and high-level three-parters stays relatively equal.
Very much agreed. We're about to do 2 straight low level 3-parters IIRC, so that's a 3-1 lead, so I hope the next unannounced 3-parter is a high level one.
For one thing, having the numbers match up means you can mix and match doing one after the other for a 1-20 career for the same character, which is fun.
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My hope is for a planes-based 11-20. It seems like the most obvious thing.
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Is this a good reason to continuously bump it with an irrelevant conversation?Wasn’t this thread about 2e adventure paths?The OP started off bashing on 2E APs. I myself have not noticed a material difference between 1E and 2E APs other than 2E APs use 2E rules. Other than that I see the same mix of quality in the APs as I saw in 1E. Some I like, some I don't. Play what I like, avoid what I don't.
APs still have plenty interesting to use. Plenty of edgy material as some like to refer to it. Plenty of interesting monsters, items, and extra bits of rules material and lore.
In all honesty, just seems like another thread meant to troll PF2 and put down the new system without providing anything other than an opinion with no factual basis for it.
If I feel like responding, I respond. It's a forum. Irrelevant conversations occur all the time in threads.
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Having translated and played almost all of 2nd edition APs, this is my (and my group's) wishlist going forward.
1. An AP which is a little heavier in tone. By "heavy" I mean serious, both in theme and NPCs. Something more along the lines of Hell's Rebels, Reign of Winter, and so on. I would not rather *every* AP to be this heavy though, just one.
2. A mix of old-school and new entry writers for APs. I appreciate the work all the new writers put into recent APs, but I also have a deep appreciation for Logue, Pett, Hitchcock, and so on. I would like to see more diversity in the writers' roster for the APs.
3. A viking-themed AP. We had Jade Regent passing through the Lands of the Linnorm Kings once, and Reign of Winter set in Irrisen, with several ties to the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. But I (we) would love to see an entire AP devoted to Paizo's takes on vikings.
4. Some scenes with a bit more edge. I know that having a Shayliss Vinder kind of scene might be too much nowadays, and that even a Foxglove-like obsession could prove a little too disturbing today, but I believe that it is possible to evoke similarly involving scenes while being politically correct.
5. A more dynamic approach to dungeons. I would like the enemies in dungeons to interact a bit more than just "if the PCs make too much noise here, the urdefhans in area A12 come investigating in 1d4 rounds." I know this is a complex one, but it is on my wishlist nonetheless.
6. Keep experimenting with the shorter APs. The way we all play RPGs is changing, and we find the new format much more suited to our needs. We cannot afford to play 5+ hours/week anymore, and longer APs, although immensely enticing, just stay that, because it would take us two to three years to just complete one.
7. Keep exploring new ways of implementing APs with virtual tabletops and shorter game sessions.
8. And more importantly, keep up the good work and thank you for allowing us to tell such wonderful tales through the years!
You translated and played all the APs, but don't consider Agents of Edgewatch "heavy" in tone?
Agents of Edgewatch is as brutal an AP as I've ever read from Paizo. Even the villains are complex and different than anything I've read from them. There are scenes worse than a Foxglove-like obsession in Agents of Edgewatch. The book is chock full of moral quandaries and extreme situations the PCs must handle in unusual ways to succeed at the job. I find it so strange that someone can read Agents of Edgewatch and consider it anything but "heavy" and filled with "edgy" material. I would rate it as perhaps the edgiest, most disturbing AP Paizo has ever released. Even many of the set pieces are open-ended in how disturbing they can be.
Age of Ashes dealt with heavy material, but bounced around too much to really delve into it.
Abominations Vaults was a classic dungeon crawl.
Extinction Curse was another module dealing with a fairly complex moral quandary, but bounced around all over the place due to the circus addition.
Strength of Thousands and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix I did not read much, so cannot comment on them overall.
I'm mainly waiting for Kingmaker and Blood Lords. Blood Lords sounds right up my alley and my group loved Kingmaker. Their favorite AP of all time.
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Yeah, I gotta agree with Deriven, Agents of Edgewatch is frequently approaching "squint isn't this too icky" territory.
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So it should be obvious that Agents of Edgewatch was spectacularly poorly timed due to circumstances beyond Paizo's control. Because of this poor timing, you can't fault people who had misgivings about it from not spending money on it and time reading it in order to verify whether their misgivings were legitimate.
APs aren't like the rules where they give that stuff away for free on the internet so people can easily check whether Distracting Explosion is a 10th level feat or an 8th level feat.
Like if Paizo does an AP about a meteor striking a major populated area, and then just as it goes to the printers a meteor strikes a major populated area... that's not Paizo's fault, but people aren't going to be real jazzed to play that one.
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There were Paizo staff who raised objections to AoE, and they’ve since admitted that they should’ve been listened to.
But sure, “artificial.”
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I mean I'm playing in Edgewatch and liking it and everyone in our party agrees that Absalom's town guard system is definitely corrupt :p There is reason why some of backgrounds are pro police reform
The problem lies with the AP rules' system itself rewarding corrupt PCs and the GM having to put some work in finding ways to reward honest PCs when it really should have been the other way around.
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Yeah, Agents of Edgewatch is totally about playing crooked cops who kick witnesses in the face and get rich off stuff they steal as "evidence", I'm not sure how somebody can NOT see that as a problem in real-world societies where law enforcement shoots automatic grande launchers in your face and asks questions later.
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I may have chosen my words poorly. By "heavy" I didn't mean "morally heavy", but "serious" in tone. I feel like you have mixed point 1 and 4. Agents of Edgewatch was great but it was... colorful, for lack of a better word. Even the most disturbing NPCs (like a certain prince...) still have a cartoonish feel to them, although they do terrible things. It was empathically taxing to play those scenes, but they still had a tragicomic feeling to them. A certain poisoner was not funny at all, but the whole event in which you have the chance to "meet" him was kind of light in tone. This is all personal feeling, just like my original post.
If I meant "morally heavy" I would have mentioned a certain bargain you can make in Abomination Vaults. That was really interesting and I loved it, but that was not what I meant by heavy. I mainly meant serious in tone, with few funny NPCs and scenes, and a general aura of heroic seriousness.
Might it be that me not finding Agents of Edgewatch heavy was due to the fact that I live in a country where the whole unfortunate events leading to the campaign being dubbed as badly timed had much less resonance? I don't know. Perhaps Agents of Edgewatch was "edgy", but I wouldn't define it heavy in tone (in my sense).
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Yeah, Agents of Edgewatch is totally about playing crooked cops who kick witnesses in the face and get rich off stuff they steal as "evidence", I'm not sure how somebody can NOT see that as a problem in real-world societies where law enforcement shoots automatic grande launchers in your face and asks questions later.
There does seem to be lot of focus to police procedural and "we can't just do x since it would be illegal", but it definitely requires wanting to play as honest people in corrupt system to enjoy it if you ask me. Playing that ap as irresponsible murderhoboes kinda breaks things in worst ways because lot of the corruption kinda incentives that.
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I may have chosen my words poorly. By "heavy" I didn't mean "morally heavy", but "serious" in tone. I feel like you have mixed point 1 and 4. Agents of Edgewatch was great but it was... colorful, for lack of a better word. Even the most disturbing NPCs (like a certain prince...) still have a cartoonish feel to them, although they do terrible things. It was empathically taxing to play those scenes, but they still had a tragicomic feeling to them. A certain poisoner was not funny at all, but the whole event in which you have the chance to "meet" him was kind of light in tone. This is all personal feeling, just like my original post.
Have we played the same AP? The second half of the first book is basically torture porn fiesta.
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The most tangible benefit that Agents of Edgewatch brings to the world is establishing that amusement parks are real in Golarion, and we need one in an AP that isn't foul to interact with stat.
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Ye are talking as if Edgewatch was eldritch tome that corrupts souls ^_^; Should I be worried about my alignment?
The pit to hell should open in 3, 2...
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Ye are talking as if Edgewatch was eldritch tome that corrupts souls ^_^; Should I be worried about my alignment?
No. Not at all.
Enjoy the freedom and respite from moral qualms.
Delight in the fear and destruction and suffering.
Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool.
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I am playing in a pbp of Agents of Edge watch now, and we are only 3/4ths the way through the first book so I am not speaking as an expert on the whole thing, but even as someone who has been doing abolitionist (abolishing prisons and police as a continuation of slavery in the US) work for 25 years, I think the AP makes some very serious mistakes (mainly in that it should have been an APB designed AP, like strength of thousands is a archetype variant rule by default), but has gotten thrown under the bus a little unfairly compared to many other beloved APs. Story telling in the US is dependent upon many highly problematic tropes and APs tend to grant "legitimate" authority to PCs all the time in ways that result in non-good decision making.
The default power fantasy of a game where every 5 or 6 levels brings heroes way beyond the approach of average people inherently creates incredibly strained justifications for why the world looks at these people as heroes and not as potential monsters in the waiting. From King Maker, to Age of Ashes, Extinction Curse and even Abomination Vaults (all APs I am playing or GMing and having a lot of fun with), the moral issues of power = legitimate authority are just massively rampant in fantasy role playing.
Now it is super true that the police procedural is a particularly problematic genre that some folks for right or wrong have dubbed "copaganda," and there are interesting studies about the long term effect that dragnet has had on the conception of what a police officer is on the average person (a show which had to run every story past the police before being aired) as opposed to if the first versions of the genre had been something more akin to the wire, where both police officers and drug dealers were consulted in the writing of the show without having creative control of it. But I still strongly contend that if we say that reimagining what the role of the police can be in a world can't be done in fantasy, then it will never be able to be done in world around us.
I don't think the issues with Agents of Edgewatch are as much about timing as they are about execution, and while I don't begrudge anyone for choosing not to play it because the themes might hit close to home in uncomfortable ways and the writing is problematic in ways that require a fair bit of GM and table conversation and reworking, I do think the idea of the AP, exploring the complexity of Urban fantasy in a world where PCs have people depending upon them to be transparent and accountable for the power they hold, is really important space to continue to explore. I doubt that Paizo will ever touch the subject of PCs as police again because of the reaction to the AP, which could be another case of Paizo the company just not being the right people to tell stories about policing, but I really hope that the company doesn't equate this failure on their part with the idea that it is better to just try to avoid writing stories that explore the issue inherent in their game that PCs rise in power so fast that most of the rest of the world should be terrified of them and at the very least, expectations would be placed on them not to jut be tomb raiders and pirates who become the heroes because history will be written by the victors.
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Agents of Edgewatch is primarily focused around investigating and taking down major criminals and conspiracies rather than addressing systematic problems in the city law or watch itself. The player's guide does mention that evil/corrupt characters would be inappropriate for the story.
Having player characters that take issue with and aim to reform the system has been an interesting side-plot, with the biggest offender of course being the watch pay scheme of requisitioning criminal's fines and confiscated gear.
The pay scheme is explicitly stated to be a temporary measure for the duration of the city population-doubling festival, and even further that the Edgewatch are under increased scrutiny to prevent unlawful seizure of property. But even then it comes across as a system that encourages watch members to take everything that isn't bolted down, particularly with the standard adventuring trope of enemies having exactly enough to be fined for/to maintain Wealth By Level and with citizens regularly attempting to pay off or bribe the watch to avoid punishment for more tenuous crimes.
With all that said, the underlying adventure is probably one of the best Paizo has written with incredibly detailed and heinous antagonists, overarching story rewarding properly investigative players and allowing player-driven exploration, and cinematic situations and encounters. Definitely not for everyone however, and the player's guide content warnings are something that I really appreciate having to ensure everyone at the table isn't involved with something they'd rather not be.
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As a follow up to my previous post on dynamic dungeons, I appreciated a lot the table on page 38 of Eyes of Empty Death, which describes how foes move through the dungeon when they are not in their areas of encounter.
I also liked the box at page 40 where you make a certain NPC retribution proactive. I like to see enemies moving around the dungeon, and sometimes even setting out to look for the heroes!
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I believe TNG might drink vodka too.
Actually we have a strong prejudice in France against his drunk countrymen. Talk about stereotypes.
Now, about the russians, one common word in French for a place where you can have a quick glass of alcohol (bistro) supposedly comes from a russian word for Quick.