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There are several different rules systems in place for riding other creatures.
Depending on where you look, the rules say it's a 1 for 1 action exchange (max 3/round), a 1 for 2 exchange (1/round), or 1 action cost for both rider and ridee. The mount might need to delay until your turn, or it might share your initiative, or you might have separate initiatives. Is it a minion, non-minion, or PC? Do you have the Ride feat? Is it sapient, humanoid, or spell? These are all factors that change how one interfaces with mounted combat.
People rarely know which rule to use (or even all that exist) or how they might interact. What a mess! (How does one ride a phantom steed, flying carpet, or flying broom anyways?), As a result, I've observed that people just don't even bother with it.
So...RIP mounted combat.
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RIP threads without RIP in the title.
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Do people actually ride non companion creatures?
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"The mount rules are for common cases: humanoids riding quadrupedal animals.": If your pixie is riding a non-quadrupedal creature, like another PC, both lose an action.
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Since you mentioned it, just speaking about Mounted Combat
I'm not sure about about corner cases and such, but when it comes to an encounter, using a Mount and Mounted Combat are pretty straight forward.
Initiative
Your mount acts on your initiative.
Mount Actions
You must use the Command an Animal action to get your mount to spend its actions. You are spending your actions (you have 3 every round) to get your mount to do theirs. If the mount has a 2-action action, then you spend 2 actions to do it. If you want it to do 3 1-action actions, then you spend your 3 actions.
I am also confused on the mounted rules.
Say you're a Cavalier mounted on your young animal companion. Does your 1-action Command an Animal give the mount 2 actions as per the minion rules or 1 action as per the mounted combat rules.
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I think it is rather simple
1. If you have an animal companion you use the animal companion rules, 1 action for 2 action for the companion to use with the possibility of giving it more actions with feats (like companion cry)
2. If you ride a regular animal (so not a companion) you exchange your actions 1:1 for mount/animal actions
3. If you want to ride a PC or NPC outside of the bedroom (:P) you both loose one action for coordination but handle your turns otherwise like regular
If you ride your Eidolon check for the mount feat, if you don't got it apply 3 otherwise just handle your turn as usual (but if the eidolon moves you stay on top of it(
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RIP threads without RIP in the title.
You mean like hype threads without hype in the title? :/
I think it is rather simple
1. If you have an animal companion you use the animal companion rules, 1 action for 2 action for the companion to use with the possibility of giving it more actions with feats (like companion cry)
2. If you ride a regular animal (so not a companion) you exchange your actions 1:1 for mount/animal actions
3. If you want to ride a PC or NPC outside of the bedroom (:P) you both loose one action for coordination but handle your turns otherwise like regular
If you ride your Eidolon check for the mount feat, if you don't got it apply 3 otherwise just handle your turn as usual (but if the eidolon moves you stay on top of it(
What about a phantom steed?
Also, do you uave any sources for any of that? (Not implying your mistaken or dishonest; it's just that the rules are scattered, and so citing sources is really helpful.)
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Nothing describes the phantom steed being a minion. so you'd follow the normal animal rules.
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Nothing describes the phantom steed being a minion. so you'd follow the normal animal rules.
But its not an animal, it's a spell effect.
Why would a spell effect bolt or throw a rider? Or need any kind of skill check at all?
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My understand is that we have 6 rules:
Mounted non-companion animal: You can use 1 or more actions to try (nature need checks) to Command an Animal to move.
Mounted Companion without mount special ability": As an Animal Companion is a minion you can use only 1 action to try move twice on land only or support.
Mounted Companion with mount special ability": As an Animal Companion is a minion you can use only 1 action to try move twice using or move and/or support.
Mounted a sentient creature (PC/NPC): You and the creature loose 1 action each.
Mounted Eidolon: 2 actions to share between you and Eidolon (but can act together)
Mounted Eidolon + Steed Form: You can use all your action normally to control both Eidolon or Summoner, including act together.
Yea, we have are overwhelmed with many rules for same thing.
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command animal is so crippling at low levels, that i feel that if you don't have ride it's not worth using a non-companion mount. Only way to get ride is goblin rough rider or human. Since goblins are small, they are my number one choice for using a mount at first level.How so? If the animal likes you, it should adjust the DC. Same for if you have it a treat or some such.
Yeah, but it would be nice if the game gave you some simple modifiers for riding a horse that you just bought at a market
After a trained horse is used to you, it should be a trivial roll barring exceptional circumstances.
Personally I find more jarring that you can get 2 actions out of some mounts and 3 out of others, which makes some slower than many PCs. Quite silly really.
Further there aren't good guidlines for hasting and slowing minions - what happens. I have to come up with my own rules for what is a fairly common situation.
My understand is that we have 6 rules...
I think there's more than that.
Nothing describes the phantom steed being a minion. so you'd follow the normal animal rules.But its not an animal, it's a spell effect.
Why would a spell effect bolt or throw a rider? Or need any kind of skill check at all?
My party uses Phantom Steed a lot. It is the best multi-mile transportation spell on the primal list at 6th spell level and below. The spell literally says, "You conjure a Large, magical, equine creature," and calls that creature a horse. It is not just a spell effect like the Fly spell. I treat a phantom steed as a magical horse that always obeys Command an Animal from its designated rider, one command by the rider per Stride by the steed.
The party has almost exclusively used phantom steeds during exploration mode, so the action economy has not mattered. The one exception was when they needed a distraction after spotting some enemies ahead on their route. Out of sight, they pulled looted armor out of their bags of holding, made mannikins out of them with tree branches, and sent the phantom steeds with mannikin riders as decoys as the party sneaked to the enemy camp on foot. I guess I bent the rules to allow them to give the steeds many commands in advance, but I like clever cinematic plans and they had 10 minutes to explain the plan to the steeds.
Five of the seven party members ride phantom steeds, conjured with the 2nd- and 3rd-level slots of the 10th-level leshy fey-blooded sorcerer. The other two party members have mature animal companions for mounts. The goblin champion rides a Medium velociraptor and the gnome druid rides a Large fledgling roc. I had to twist the PF2 rules to allow the roc, but the druid encountered it and made it her pet until she could spend the feats to make it her animal companion. For animal companions one command gives two actions, even when serving as a mount. When a player puts in that much effort, we work out a compromise for reasonable results. Also the companions are now mature enough to take one action when not commanded, which the roc routinely uses for a Fly action to keep airborne.
The limited actions limiting the movement of minions came up when the velociraptor was too small to ride. We had several chases when the last enemies ran away. The elf ranger could Stride 30 feet for 90 feet per round, but the velociraptor at 50 feet was faster with just two actions providing 100 feet per round. However, since the champion strode at 25 feet, giving a command every turn mean that she could move only 50 feet per round herself. She would end up commanding her velociraptor from two hundred feet behind the front of the chase. When leveling up let the champion ride the velociraptor, the chase became more realistic.
Currently a NPC halfling summoner is with the party. I had converted Cirieo Thassadin from a ranger to a summoner for the Secrets of Magic playtest. In story Cirieo had recently lost a leg, bitten off by a dragon, so riding his beast eidolon Fluffy made sense. But the rules for riding sapient creatures restricted them to two actions. If he Dismounted, then he was left with one action, not enough for anything useful. Steed Form feat corrected that. By the way, the place in Archives of Nethys to find the Riding Sapient Creatures rule is in the supplemental text in that feat.
My understand is that we have 6 rules...I think there's more than that.
You are right I forget some special cases:
- Mounted non-companion animal but with Ride feat: My understanding here is there your mount works in same way as Animal Companion works without land speed only restriction because this feat treat your mount like a minion.
- Phantom Steed spell: You summon a creature, so it's a minion that you command so will work like a Animal Companion mount rules without land speed only restriction too.
So many disparate rules...
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Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
You can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.
You can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
Yes it is a huge advantage for any caster or archer, and even some melee characters. Be size small, take a size small companion, take the feat to make it mature and size medium. The mount trait is not important. Free move every turn, on a mount you can take into most dungeons. You probably aren't going to attack with your mount so not really worth investing further in it. If the enemy targets it, they haven't attacked you so its still worthwhile.
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My only problem with the mounted combat rules is that a small character on a medium mount with a reach weapon has further reach than a medium character on a large mount with a reach weapon. That just feels wrong and doesn't make sense in the slightest. Here is hoping they fix that sometime in the future in an errata.
I mean, it makes sense though.
Your reach doesn't doesn't change and at a certain point you have to overcome the mass and size of your own mount. Attacking from the back of a massive dragon doesn't make your arms longer.
You can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
Yes it is a huge advantage for any caster or archer, and even some melee characters. Be size small, take a size small companion, take the feat to make it mature and size medium. The mount trait is not important. Free move every turn, on a mount you can take into most dungeons. You probably aren't going to attack with your mount so not really worth investing further in it. If the enemy targets it, they haven't attacked you so its still worthwhile.
Clearly.
As a side note, it works also fine for medium characters: Grab the Cavalier archetype, grab a small companion that goes medium and then large at level 4.Just choose a companion that can easily move inside dungeon environment (raptor, crocodile, things like that instead of a horse).
As a side note, it works also fine for medium characters: Grab the Cavalier archetype, grab a small companion that goes medium and then large at level 4.Just choose a companion that can easily move inside dungeon environment (raptor, crocodile, things like that instead of a horse).
Yeah its gets a bit more push back from GMs sometines but normally it works.
Petcache will get you through it.
My only problem with the mounted combat rules is that a small character on a medium mount with a reach weapon has further reach than a medium character on a large mount with a reach weapon. That just feels wrong and doesn't make sense in the slightest. Here is hoping they fix that sometime in the future in an errata.
Yep it's ugly but yes works like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnqm-Kq65EQ
You can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
Yes it is a huge advantage for any caster or archer, and even some melee characters. Be size small, take a size small companion, take the feat to make it mature and size medium. The mount trait is not important. Free move every turn, on a mount you can take into most dungeons. You probably aren't going to attack with your mount so not really worth investing further in it. If the enemy targets it, they haven't attacked you so its still worthwhile.
Mounted Cavalier Magus with a charging spellstrike could be a fun character to play. Probably Sustaining Steel or Sparkling Targe, I'd imagine.
You can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
Yes it is a huge advantage for any caster or archer, and even some melee characters. Be size small, take a size small companion, take the feat to make it mature and size medium. The mount trait is not important. Free move every turn, on a mount you can take into most dungeons. You probably aren't going to attack with your mount so not really worth investing further in it. If the enemy targets it, they haven't attacked you so its still worthwhile.
How in this case is a free move every turn? They have to command the animal companion, so they would spend one action
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You can have a walking chair as your animal companion.
Just thought everyone should know.
How in this case is a free move every turn? They have to command the animal companion, so they would spend one actionYou can do that with a Mature Animal companion, too.Lets not forget the potentially most efficent one!
A Corgi mounted Sprite that has taken Independant for their corgi. Movement without even spending an action!
Yes it is a huge advantage for any caster or archer, and even some melee characters. Be size small, take a size small companion, take the feat to make it mature and size medium. The mount trait is not important. Free move every turn, on a mount you can take into most dungeons. You probably aren't going to attack with your mount so not really worth investing further in it. If the enemy targets it, they haven't attacked you so its still worthwhile.
When mature, an animal companion ( apart the champion one which is stupid ) can use one action on his turn only to perform the stride or strike action.
For example, here's the ranger one
Your animal companion grows up, becoming a mature animal companion and gaining additional capabilities. If you have the Hunt Prey action, your animal companion assaults the prey even without your orders. During an encounter, even if you don't use the Command an Animal action, your animal companion can still use 1 action that round on your turn to Stride toward or Strike your prey.This one sucks too, since it is tied to a prey ( no prey, no free action ) and can only move towards ( no withdraw ) the prey and attack it ( no other targets can be attacked ), but it's an example how mounts get their free action.
Wow, I totally missed that part in the feat, and the druid in the party I am Gming also! She is my wife, I am doomed!
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This one sucks too, since it is tied to a prey ( no prey, no free action ) and can only move towards ( no withdraw ) the prey and attack it ( no other targets can be attacked ), but it's an example how mounts get their free action.
Another reason for the Ranger to take Beast Master rather than their own feats. I don't think anyone else gets this limitation.
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You can have a walking chair as your animal companion.
Just thought everyone should know.
Yes I undated my list of Animal Companions this week.
There were 6 new in recent books.
As a mount for a caster, the Leg Chair has a lot to offer, with its special maneuver being Careful Withdrawal and it providing a cover bonus.
Then there is a Capybara which can give a +1 circumstance bonus to hit. Very nice.
Maybe RIP Mounts is just a bad title for a thread.
This one sucks too, since it is tied to a prey ( no prey, no free action ) and can only move towards ( no withdraw ) the prey and attack it ( no other targets can be attacked ), but it's an example how mounts get their free action.Another reason for the Ranger to take Beast Master rather than their own feats. I don't think anyone else gets this limitation.
But the Ranger Companion gains the Ranger's Edge. So it's balanced.
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ps: keep also in mind you can't exploit things by mixing BM progression with the ranger pet. It's either the former or the latter.
Are you sure about that?
The specialization issue is a non-issue. If you take a second specialization you gain nearly nothing and absolutely nothing on a third.
The level difference for Mature and Incredible is annoying, I agree on that. But if you are a Precision Ranger (the most interesting one for a Companion) you gain an extra die of damage which is far from negligeable expecially at low level.
Now, if you want a Mount, well, you can still take a Ranger Companion as chances are high that you do that to get your three actions to benefit as much as possible from Flurry. So you have a bit less possibilities, but I don't think it's crippling.
I personally think it's roughly balanced (which doesn't mean that I don't prefer an option on another).
Also, as Squiggit said, you can mix BM and Ranger. It just costs you one extra feat (BM Dedication) to get a BM companion which doesn't benefit from Hunted Prey.
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The beastmaster archetype dedication explicitly states that it can give you a second animal companion if you already have one, so I think it is intended that it an be taken by a ranger who has the animal companion feat, and the beastmaster companions section states that the rules regarding active companions applies to all of your companions regardless of their source.
At least the construct companion rules helpfully stated that you can't have both an animal companion and a construct companion, and the beastmaster archetype only gives you an exemption for having more than one animal companion, so we don't have to worry about whether the multiple companions thing for beastmaster allows one of your four companions to be a construct.