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Don't know about the details behind this private matter, but I do know that yet another vitriolic diatribe from Jessica Price has me struggling to not assume Paizo's in the right purely because she says they're not.
Sorry folks, but anything that invokes her is automatically suspect.
Thankfully, the corroborating details from multiple sources should help you believe Jessica's claims, right?
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What, we should believe her alluding that Erik Mona is a Nazi sympathizer because he had a cross that resembled an Iron Cross on a picture on a wall? Well, I could, but that means the entire modern-day German army are likely Nazi sympathizers, heck, so is the entire German government, because they're actively displaying Iron Crosses on military vehicles, ships and aircraft.
So there's one BS there to begin with, and Erik spoke up to make it clear that he is Very Much Not a Nazi, apologised if anybody found that imagery offensive and thanked Paizo editors for catching some of his less than fortunate writing. That's more than enough for me, the guy is maybe a bit naive about things, but never passed off as a supremacist of any sort.
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Don't know about the details behind this private matter, but I do know that yet another vitriolic diatribe from Jessica Price has me struggling to not assume Paizo's in the right purely because she says they're not.
Sorry folks, but anything that invokes her is automatically suspect.
Pretend Jessica Price said nothing.
Lu resigned a few weeks ago, Sara went to management concerned with her team's working conditions and particularly the three weeks leading up to gencon corresponding with a new community manager being put as direct report for customer service. Her employment ended. Diego resigned in solidarity because neither of the managers in question "are worth working for".
The Jessica Price tweets arent really important to current events beyond supporting the idea this is a long term trend.
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https://twitter.com/AmazonChique/status/1437953182882217986?s=19
Also this clearly shows real issues with Management.
Based entirely on Crystal's account, I think I might be done buying things from Paizo. You can't tell us you're LGBTQ+ friendly whilst having specific freelancing rules for trans people.
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What, we should believe her alluding that Erik Mona is a Nazi sympathizer because he had a cross that resembled an Iron Cross on a picture on a wall? Well, I could, but that means the entire modern-day German army are likely Nazi sympathizers, heck, so is the entire German government, because they're actively displaying Iron Crosses on military vehicles, ships and aircraft.
So there's one BS there to begin with, and Erik spoke up to make it clear that he is Very Much Not a Nazi, apologised if anybody found that imagery offensive and thanked Paizo editors for catching some of his less than fortunate writing. That's more than enough for me, the guy is maybe a bit naive about things, but never passed off as a supremacist of any sort.
I've seen this a few times now, and I went back and reread the relevant part of the thread because I wanted to see if I misread or missed something somehow. I did not. What she actually said was that his interest in theosophy led him to put up a picture in his office that had been made by people in the I AM movement. That movement came out of an American fascist group, which is why it used the Iron Cross. The Iron Cross made a lot of his Jewish, POC, and Queer employees uncomfortable. For those who don't know: while the symbol itself was a German military symbol that predates the Nazi Party by about a century, it became associated with the Nazis (you know, because the German military used it while they tried to conquer Europe). The association is so strong that it is often used as a visual shorthand for them when people don't want to use the swastika. This ranges from children's entertainment to white nationalists. You can see why that would make people uncomfortable. That's what she was talking about. She also mentioned Victorian era books he collects, and that he posted some pictures of them without thinking that maybe the context of some of the symbols within had changed, and that he was defensive when told that they had. Naivety and defensiveness. That's all.
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I've seen this a few times now, and I went back and reread the relevant part of the thread because I wanted to see if I misread or missed something somehow. I did not. What she actually said was that his interest in theosophy led him to put up a picture in his office that had been made by people in the I AM movement. That movement came out of an American fascist group, which is why it used the Iron Cross. The Iron Cross made a lot of his Jewish, POC, and Queer employees uncomfortable. For those who don't know: while the symbol itself was a German military symbol that predates the Nazi Party by about a century, it became associated with the Nazis (you know, because the German military used it while they tried to conquer Europe). The association is so strong that it is often used as a visual shorthand for them when people don't want to use the swastika. This ranges from children's entertainment to white nationalists. You can see why that would make people uncomfortable. That's what she was talking about. She also mentioned Victorian era books he collects, and that he posted some pictures of them without thinking that maybe the context of some of the symbols within had changed, and that he was defensive when told that they had....What, we should believe her alluding that Erik Mona is a Nazi sympathizer because he had a cross that resembled an Iron Cross on a picture on a wall? Well, I could, but that means the entire modern-day German army are likely Nazi sympathizers, heck, so is the entire German government, because they're actively displaying Iron Crosses on military vehicles, ships and aircraft.
So there's one BS there to begin with, and Erik spoke up to make it clear that he is Very Much Not a Nazi, apologised if anybody found that imagery offensive and thanked Paizo editors for catching some of his less than fortunate writing. That's more than enough for me, the guy is maybe a bit naive about things, but never passed off as a supremacist of any sort.
I'm sorry, but I've pulled up Wikipedia and Britannica and tried to find anything about that movement being in any way linked to fascism. Couldn't find anything. I also could not find anything on that purple cross being actually the Iron Cross, but of course, it's kinda similar, so I can imagine somebody could have felt uncomfortable while looking at it, but then again Bundeswehr is parking tanks with actual real deal Iron Crosses in my town every now and then and they don't give much of a damn about social reception of that fact (kinda gutsy of them, I must admit).
In any case, I'm standing by my assessment of this being JP taking something, blowing it out of proportion and counting on empathetic people wary of right-wing extremism picking it up and helping further her "tear Paizo into bits" crusade.
And yes, I've had my family members killed by actual Nazis, so it's not like I'm entirely detached from the issue.
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After all of this coming out, I’m really happy I let me charter AP subscription expire last month. Doubt I’ll buy another thing from Paizo going forward.
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https://twitter.com/AmazonChique/status/1437953182882217986?s=19
Also this clearly shows real issues with Management.
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...I've seen this a few times now, and I went back and reread the relevant part of the thread because I wanted to see if I misread or missed something somehow. I did not. What she actually said was that his interest in theosophy led him to put up a picture in his office that had been made by people in the I AM movement. That movement came out of an American fascist group, which is why it used the Iron Cross. The Iron Cross made a lot of his Jewish, POC, and Queer employees uncomfortable. For those who don't know: while the symbol itself was a German military symbol that predates the Nazi Party by about a century, it became associated with the Nazis (you know, because the German military used it while they tried to conquer Europe). The association is so strong that it is often used as a visual shorthand for them when people don't want to use the swastika. This ranges from children's entertainment to white nationalists. You can see why that would make people uncomfortable. That's what she was talking about. She also mentioned Victorian era books he collects, and that he posted some pictures of them without thinking that maybe the context of some of the symbols within had changed, and that he was defensiveWhat, we should believe her alluding that Erik Mona is a Nazi sympathizer because he had a cross that resembled an Iron Cross on a picture on a wall? Well, I could, but that means the entire modern-day German army are likely Nazi sympathizers, heck, so is the entire German government, because they're actively displaying Iron Crosses on military vehicles, ships and aircraft.
So there's one BS there to begin with, and Erik spoke up to make it clear that he is Very Much Not a Nazi, apologised if anybody found that imagery offensive and thanked Paizo editors for catching some of his less than fortunate writing. That's more than enough for me, the guy is maybe a bit naive about things, but never passed off as a supremacist of any sort.
It's in Wikipedia, under the history section of the I Am Activity entry. Some of the original members had been in the Silver Shirts, which is the fascist group I mentioned.
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Pretend Jessica Price said nothing.
Lu resigned a few weeks ago, Sara went to management concerned with her team's working conditions and particularly the three weeks leading up to gencon corresponding with a new community manager being put as direct report for customer service. Her employment ended. Diego resigned in solidarity because neither of the managers in question "are worth working for".
The Jessica Price tweets arent really important to current events beyond supporting the idea this is a long term trend.
Exactly. This "Is Erik Mona a Nazi?" garbage is a distraction.
Meanwhile, we know that an outstanding, long-term employee was fired in a way that left one of her (also very well-regarded) co-workers feeling he had no choice but to quit in protest. That is organizational disfunction to he point of cutting into muscle, and is exactly the sort of toxic mismanagement that should be deeply troubling to anyone who cares about Paizo, its products, or its employees.
Keep your eyes on the ball, people.
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Pretend Jessica Price said nothing.
Lu resigned a few weeks ago, Sara went to management concerned with her team's working conditions and particularly the three weeks leading up to gencon corresponding with a new community manager being put as direct report for customer service. Her employment ended. Diego resigned in solidarity because neither of the managers in question "are worth working for".
The Jessica Price tweets arent really important to current events beyond supporting the idea this is a long term trend.
Exactly. This "Is Erik Mona a Nazi?" garbage is a distraction.
Meanwhile, we know that an outstanding, long-term employee was fired in a way that left one of her (also very well-regarded) co-workers feeling he had no choice but to quit in protest. That is organizational disfunction to he point of cutting into muscle, and is exactly the sort of toxic mismanagement that should be deeply troubling to anyone who cares about Paizo, its products, or its employees.
Keep your eyes on the ball, people.
See, if Gorbacz was around, he'd likely say that it's ironic, heartwarming and significant that after over a decade of butting heads with you, today at probably the most critical moment in Paizo's history you're both on the same page.
But alas, he's not here, I'm just a simulacrum, nothing but an usurper, a false idol.
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I find Jessica Price an opportunist taking advantage of a very bad situation on what to some ex-employees. Don’t be fooled using what happened to get attention for herself and more importantly her ego.
I can’t stand her because of this https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1000045432007938048?s=21
They person dies of cancer and she is on Twitter celebrating the fact. Funny and quite a coincidence that no one brings that up then not surprised as it does not fit carefully constructed personal narratives many have of wanting to cancel Paizo. Or the fact that she was fired from her job because of bad behaviour on her part. Funny how it’s “ never her fault “ and the culture of the company. When a person has a pattern of being let go from jobs it’s not blaming the victim if just might be because her behaviour both at work and outside make her unemployable.
The only people I am interested in hearing from is from those that may have been fired unfairly. Only them. Certainly not Price that seems to have a continual axe to grind with companies that let her go.
Unless enough fans stop buying your not going to hurt Paizo financially imo. For every person who cancels their subscription, their is one that still keeps buying from them. While I am not impressed with how the ex-employees were left go from the company Paizo does not owe us any explanation. Should they yes are they forced to no. Try going into any other company and go “ do as zi dsy or else” and wonder why both security guards are laughing while they escort you off the premises.
Let say Paizo gets canceled who is going to take up the mantle. Some of you are so blinded by the moment and not thinking about that. Two in the hobby could. One is Kobold Press which I found does Pathfinder better than Paizo. With the resources to do so. Yet are for the moment focusing on 5E products and would push their Midgard setting more than Golarion. Porphyria aka cold water seaweed the rpg had a name that does not roll off the tongue. Has their own version of Pathfinder tweaked with their own setting. Not sure if they have the resources to fill the void. Had to through Wotc would buy the IP then either quietly lock it away or convert it exclusively to 5E. They have no reason really to push an ex-company product.
To reiterate being angry at how the ex-employees wrre treated. Cancel your subscriptions if you must, though it’s very easy to declare that and not actually go through with it. Be aware that you could hurt the company financially enough that the current employees livelihood could be affected and Paizo ceases to exist.
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If a company does something egregious and loses customers as a result of that, how is that the fault of the customers?
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The kindest thing I can say is "I'm glad he's no longer around to keep doing harm."
said about a man who helped propel Gamergate.
You people are way too obsessed with Jessica Price, there’s more rants and froth in here about her because you all can’t let it go rather than focusing on Sara Marie abs Diego.
Very few of us want to see Paizo destroyed, specifically cause we know it would hurt the employees we care about.
We want things to get FIXED. So the people working there feel safe, so they can enjoy working there and then we all can continue to purchase and enjoy the awesome fantasies they create.
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So you've decided to focus on one messenger and not the message that's been repeated by other Paizo staff? Or just because this one person is attached, you've decided that nothing holds weight?
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Not sure if your talking to me or not.
The only people or persons I'm interested in hearing from are those who were fired and those who left in support of them and no one else. Certainly not an ex-employee with a grudge and from what I read took Erik drunken ramblings as facts.
Unless you have lost someone to Cancer or had someone who survived it, the disease is insidious and terrible and not a fan of anyone who mocks the death of someone who died from it in any fashion. Nothing anyone says n this last point will change my mind.
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There was nothing celebratory or mocking in that message. It was a sigh of relief that someone who had caused her harm was no longer able to do so. I'm sorry that you think that's celebratory.
And again, take Jessica out of this conversation if you don't trust her, that's fine. We still have the actual events of Sara getting fired and Diego resigning in response. We still have the allegations that Crystal has made. We still have Lu leaving earlier in the month due to the same reasons. Focus on the actual issue not on the person you hate that surfaced some things.
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I already have.
My point stands if this is the straw thst breaks the camels back andvPaizo goes under or the owners just get fed up and walk away where will you get your new content.
I'm lucky enough to own all the core 1E sourcebooks with friends that have all the 1E APs in print. I was never a subscriber in any case.
Third party is one alternative though many are hit and miss in terms of quality. With many here being anti-3PP.
Someone else buys THE IP and decides they don't feel the need to be inclusive in terms of diversity in contentborvhiring practices. Companies today make a big show about it yet nothing forces them to include any of that.
Before passing any judgement I want to see what and if anything Paizo does to rectify the situation.
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My point stands if this is the straw thst breaks the camels back andvPaizo goes under or the owners just get fed up and walk away where will you get your new content.
Other games, other companies. That's not up for debate. If we don't want to give a company money for whatever reason, we don't want their product. If you really care about Paizo losing business, then you should be fighting for Paizo to address this.
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I mean if it comes to that, which is not what anyone actually wants, then I also have years and years of material built up. That's not what I want, it's not what Rysky wants, it's not what anyone here wants. We want Paizo to do better. We want management to be held accountable. We want trans creators to not be treated like third-class citizens not being allowed to go to conventions. We want concerns about the safety of their employees to not get ignored.
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You people are way too obsessed with Jessica Price, there’s more rants and froth in here about her because you all can’t let it go rather than focusing on Sara Marie abs Diego.
Let's look at Sara's firing in a vacuum shall we?
Sara Marie is fired, Diego resigns in protest with his short set of Tweets. JP and Crystal remain silent. People like Moreland simply comment, "somebody hire these great people." Nothing from Jeff; nothing from Erik or Jason.
We wake up Tuesday morning and there's a certain, "waaaa, why did Sara get fired and Diego resign in protest due to management activities?"
And it ends there. Because it's a personnel issue that none of us have any business in butting our noses into. Good people are fired regularly for bad reasons; conversely, good people are fired regularly for GOOD reasons. Many of us (myself included in this) suspect that some kind of major screw-up has occurred, but without being inside the room we have no idea what really happened. In fact, it's worth noting that other than a vague "this was bad management" by Diego, none of the people inside the room have commented and the circumstances are 100% in limbo. Paizo can't comment (it's both unethical AND illegal) and without comments from Diego and/or Sara there's nothing else to say.
We have none of the "oh man let me tell you about the people involved" from JP, so it ends there. Maybe there's yet another discussion of how Paizo management keeps screwing things up, but honestly it's not going to get the same vitriol. Eventually the story of Sara's firing is a blip on the "well that was dumb" radar. So the very idea that "we're getting sidetracked" is totally missing the situation. JP sidetracked this discussion and made it a thing.
With the addition of JP to the mix we get the Jeff Alvarez thread (after his absolutely awful tone-deaf response), an apology from Erik where he has to affirm that Nazis are bad, and Jason is suddenly in the mix as well. No, everything here comes DIRECTLY from the stirring the pot, not the original firing.
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She doesn't have to take the dump in the punchbowl in order for us to smell it.“JP sidetracked this discussion and made it a thing.”
*looks around*
Funny, I don’t see her anywhere in the vicinity of the Paizo forums where y’all have been whining.
If someone else does it bad. One of their friends or someone else does the same and they get a free pass on bad behaviour. Hypocrisy at its finest.
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“Because it's a personnel issue that none of us have any business in butting our noses into.”
And you couldn’t be more wrong.
Awesome, because I think they're both great people let me know who asked you to be their voice in this discussion - was it Sara or Diego? I'd love to give them my support if they've asked for it.
Please, let me know when it's okay for me to start writing to my fired friend's boss to tell them, "you made the right call man."
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“Because it's a personnel issue that none of us have any business in butting our noses into.”
And you couldn’t be more wrong.
Awesome, because I think they're both great people let me know who asked you to be their voice in this discussion - was it Sara or Diego? I'd love to give them my support if they've asked for it.
Please, let me know when it's okay for me to start writing to my fired friend's boss to tell them, "you made the right call man."
*motions to the entire community here, on Twitter, and Reddit*
Do I LOOK like the only person upset here?
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“JP sidetracked this discussion and made it a thing.”
*looks around*
Funny, I don’t see her anywhere in the vicinity of the Paizo forums where y’all have been whining.
Given how much of the discussion is and was about her thread, I think it's fair to say that it shaped the topic of the discussion. While it is conflating two separate topics, a common thread in both is issues with management that suggest signs of a greater problem.
Especially since, y'know, you brought up the Twitter and Reddit community, most of which is talking much more about the JP thread than anything else.
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“ take my friends or this person words at face value simply because I like her”
Might work for the Internet and cancel culture not so much for some people. Or how HR or nay companies tend to try and fix issues they have.
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Given how much of the discussion is and was about her thread, I think it's fair to say that it shaped the topic of the discussion. While it is conflating two separate topics, a common thread in both is issues with management that suggest signs of a greater problem.Especially since, y'know, you brought up the Twitter and Reddit community, most of which is talking much more about the JP thread than anything else.
I think the poster assumed because they like the person that everyone and anyone would assume JP was telling the gospel truth and is now trying to run interference for her because some don’t like her.
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We wake up Tuesday morning and there's a certain, "waaaa, why did Sara get fired and Diego resign in protest due to management activities?"And it ends there.
I'm not so sure. Sara fired alone - OK. But Diego resigns in protest? Now that's not something you see every day. People here say that supporting the company keeps employees afloat, but now it seems that employees are actively wanting out of that company! So perhaps layoffs will not be such a problem?
Having thought more of this, I would probably be content if Jeff said something to the effect of "while I disagreed with Sara Marie on business practices, I am very grateful to her for the years of hard work she put into keeping our customers happy and nurturing a community and that's why you can rest assured that I gave her a generous leaver package in appreciation of that and I wish her success in the future".
But I see no hint of that, and I still see no way of helping Sara Marie, despite numerous unrelated Patreons and Kofis popping up.
EDIT: I went ahead and helped Adam Daigle. I was thinking that surely a good company such as Paizo will take care of his medical debt. Now I am not sure anymore.
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I think the poster assumed because they like the person that everyone and anyone would assume JP was telling the gospel truth and is now trying to run interference for her because some don’t like her.
"Some" is an understatement. Some of the loudest and most reactionary folks here are falling right into the trap set for them and making themselves look damn foolish by believing even half of what was said.
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“ take my friends or this person words at face value simply because I like her”
Might work for the Internet and cancel culture not so much for some people. Or how HR or nay companies tend to try and fix issues they have.
Nobody is actually doing that. We are corroborating stories from multiple sources, but you're ignoring all but the one who dealt you what you consider to be a personal slight by saying she was relieved that an abuser couldn't abuse anymore.
I’m not refuting any of the other multiple sources where have I said that. I just don’t like or trust JP
I don’t trust JP as she seems to have a grudge against Paizo and took something Erik said under the influence of alcohol as being true. Now if he was sober it’s one thing.
Where I come from I usually wait for the person to be somewhat sober before tossing out any alleged accusations of bad behaviour. Obviously now we have multiple sources yet before that all we had was the initial tweet from JP. Which manny here took as the absolute truth without waiting for multiple sources to corroborate it.
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Okay but nobody is talking about that specific allegation EXCEPT you. The ones that are most concerning are the ones levied at Jeff Alvarez and Tonya Wooldridge. Things that have been corroborated like the refusal to provide a safe working environment for employees by simply having the office cleaned regularly. Things like Crystal not being allowed to go to cons because they didn't want her rooming with a cisgender woman. Things like the catalyst of the whole event in which the beloved Customer Service Manager was fired and the Customer Service Lead resigned in protest rather than continue working for the management that so mishandled (and continues to mishandle) this situation.
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The alternate sources are second and third hand anecdotes. We've yet to hear from anyone directly affected by a specific claim. We're castigating a company over hearsay.
Several things are corroborated by Crystal Frasier, including the carpet part. At least google this stuff before you make yourself look like you don't know what's going on.
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Apologies, I did not realize "the carpet was dirty" was a core argument that people were waiving their pitchforks over.The alternate sources are second and third hand anecdotes. We've yet to hear from anyone directly affected by a specific claim. We're castigating a company over hearsay.Several things are corroborated by Crystal Frasier, including the carpet part. At least google this stuff before you make yourself look like you don't know what's going on.
The carpet case is vital! Years from now we will relate to these events as "the carpet incident".
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I think the poster assumed because they like the person that everyone and anyone would assume JP was telling the gospel truth and is now trying to run interference for her because some don’t like her.
Given how much of the discussion is and was about her thread, I think it's fair to say that it shaped the topic of the discussion. While it is conflating two separate topics, a common thread in both is issues with management that suggest signs of a greater problem.Especially since, y'know, you brought up the Twitter and Reddit community, most of which is talking much more about the JP thread than anything else.
No one here doing this, though.
Your obsession with the great evil of cancel culture is noted. Though I do not see the link with the Customer Service thing, nor with the people who greatly enjoy Paizo's inclusivity and are now worried it was only an act, at least from the higher ups.