Paizo - Care to rebuttal?


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WormysQueue wrote:
So injustice only exists when it is done to people with world-wide name recognition? Is that your argument here?

No, just that I don't think a corporation is going to expend a lot of resources/time/energy to placate a fraction of their user base.

I guess I differ here fundamentally from most posters because I'm just completely uninterested in discussing the morality of her firing.

Either it was legal, in which case this is a non-issue for me; or it was illegal, in which case it just becomes a curiosity.


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Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
WormysQueue wrote:
So injustice only exists when it is done to people with world-wide name recognition? Is that your argument here?

No, just that I don't think a corporation is going to expend a lot of resources/time/energy to placate a fraction of their user base.

I guess I differ here fundamentally from most posters because I'm just completely uninterested in discussing the morality of her firing.

Either it was legal, in which case this is a non-issue for me; or it was illegal, in which case it just becomes a curiosity.

If you're uninterested in discussing the morality of her firing, why are you here discussing the morality of her firing?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

I might be a fraction of their customer base but I spend on average $500 a year on their product. I did the math over the weekend, I've made $6000 of purchases just through this website. That's not even counting the Paizo products I've bought at FLGS.


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thejeff wrote:
Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
WormysQueue wrote:
So injustice only exists when it is done to people with world-wide name recognition? Is that your argument here?

No, just that I don't think a corporation is going to expend a lot of resources/time/energy to placate a fraction of their user base.

I guess I differ here fundamentally from most posters because I'm just completely uninterested in discussing the morality of her firing.

Either it was legal, in which case this is a non-issue for me; or it was illegal, in which case it just becomes a curiosity.

If you're uninterested in discussing the morality of her firing, why are you here discussing the morality of her firing?

I'm not - I don't believe any of my posts have been geared toward saying her firing was/wasn't justified.


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Cori Marie wrote:
I might be a fraction of their customer base but I spend on average $500 a year on their product. I did the math over the weekend, I've made $6000 of purchases just through this website. That's not even counting the Paizo products I've bought at FLGS.

The lowest estimate of Paizo's annual revenue of $9,500,000.

500/9,500,000 = 0.00005263157 -> x100 = ~%0.0053

Paizo Employee Director of Community

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Removed a series of posts talking about violence, as I don't believe anyone here is advocating for violence against any of the involved parties.


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Cori Marie wrote:
I might be a fraction of their customer base but I spend on average $500 a year on their product. I did the math over the weekend, I've made $6000 of purchases just through this website. That's not even counting the Paizo products I've bought at FLGS.

If they release 2 sets of minis I spend easily 1500 a year not counting extras; maps, random pdf's, any extras, I throw in or my accessories subscription.

Add that and its easily over 2k a year. I also buy things at the FLGS on the fly as well.

That is since 2e. Before that I would say 500-1000 per year. I went full in on 2e though and planned on picking everything up one way or the other for it.

I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.


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Yoshua wrote:
I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.

That would probably be true, but I highly doubt that's going to be the case. Even now, on ground zero/these forums, the number of posts in this threads are slowing down considerably. Whether or not you find Paizo's response/lack-there-of acceptable/unacceptable, I would imagine they've said/done all they're going to say/do about it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.
That would probably be true, but I highly doubt that's going to be the case. Even now, on ground zero/these forums, the number of posts in this threads are slowing down considerably. Whether or not you find Paizo's response/lack-there-of acceptable/unacceptable, I would imagine they've said/done all they're going to say/do about it.

Sadly I agree. And when my current adventure path subscription runs its course I will revisit on if I will continue. I don't plan on stopping between now and then and my internal monologue is giving them that long, until the end of the year, to make tangible progress.

Then I will revisit the thought of cancelling.


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Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.
That would probably be true, but I highly doubt that's going to be the case. Even now, on ground zero/these forums, the number of posts in this threads are slowing down considerably. Whether or not you find Paizo's response/lack-there-of acceptable/unacceptable, I would imagine they've said/done all they're going to say/do about it.

What do you gain by telling people that things won't get better and they shouldn't hope for them to?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Being pointlessly negative isn't going to help. I'd rather keep on discussing this and pushing for positive change

Liberty's Edge

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keftiu wrote:
Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.
That would probably be true, but I highly doubt that's going to be the case. Even now, on ground zero/these forums, the number of posts in this threads are slowing down considerably. Whether or not you find Paizo's response/lack-there-of acceptable/unacceptable, I would imagine they've said/done all they're going to say/do about it.
What do you gain by telling people that things won't get better and they shouldn't hope for them to?

I think the Community expecting an Action Plan within a week or verbiage that may open them up to a lawsuit is the problem. As mentioned by Cori, Aaron has stated, among others, that We've Be Heard. What more do we expect?

Give them at least a month to rest from GenCon, hot heads to cool and discussions/internal meetings to be had. Glamoring for our demands to be done right now, this instant, is not helping anyone.


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Anorak wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Ill Gotten Gains wrote:
Yoshua wrote:
I don't think losing me as a customer will hurt their bottom line. I think losing a lot of people like me will though.
That would probably be true, but I highly doubt that's going to be the case. Even now, on ground zero/these forums, the number of posts in this threads are slowing down considerably. Whether or not you find Paizo's response/lack-there-of acceptable/unacceptable, I would imagine they've said/done all they're going to say/do about it.
What do you gain by telling people that things won't get better and they shouldn't hope for them to?

I think the Community expecting an Action Plan within a week or verbiage that may open them up to a lawsuit is the problem. As mentioned by Cori, Aaron has stated, among others, that We've Be Heard. What more do we expect?

Give them at least a month to rest from GenCon, hot heads to cool and discussions/internal meetings to be had. Glamoring for our demands to be done right now, this instant, is not helping anyone.

The problem with that approach is that by a month from now any pressure is likely to be gone and won't easily be rebuilt. That's how movements work, unfortunately. You can't pause public opinion for a month or two and then turn it back on again if nothing is done.

Waiting it out is a common strategy for a company that doesn't want to change and it often will work, even if the people trying to put pressure on don't agree to shut up for a month.

Liberty's Edge

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thejeff wrote:

The problem with that approach is that by a month from now any pressure is likely to be gone and won't easily be rebuilt. That's how movements work, unfortunately. You can't pause public opinion for a month or two and then turn it back on again if nothing is done.

Waiting it out is a common strategy for a company that doesn't want to change and it often will work, even if the people trying to put pressure on don't agree to shut up for a month.

If this was some Evil Corp, then I would agree with you. Paizo is not that. Things have changed for the better before and I expect the same now. However, what I don't expect them to do is do it right this moment.

For me as long as they provide regular updates on the issues I have with them, that's all I want. Weekly Community or even Monthly Updates would be welcome.


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Anorak wrote:
thejeff wrote:

The problem with that approach is that by a month from now any pressure is likely to be gone and won't easily be rebuilt. That's how movements work, unfortunately. You can't pause public opinion for a month or two and then turn it back on again if nothing is done.

Waiting it out is a common strategy for a company that doesn't want to change and it often will work, even if the people trying to put pressure on don't agree to shut up for a month.

If this was some Evil Corp, then I would agree with you. Paizo is not that. Things have changed for the better before and I expect the same now. However, what I don't expect them to do is do it right this moment.

For me as long as they provide regular updates on the issues I have with them, that's all I want. Weekly Community or even Monthly Updates would be welcome.

I agree with both of you. Public campaigns can’t politely wait-and-see - that’s just not how groups of people work.

Similarly, it’s wrong to expect Paizo to stick to a schedule that would satisfy us.

It’s a complicated situation. I’m lending my voice to a protest, but I’m not affected by any of the issues raised. I’m not really a stakeholder - that’s the staff (past and current), the freelancers and those members of the community who feel betrayed or let down by the company’s proven commitment to diversity falling down when it gets to the real world conditions of some staff.

I’m going to continue my advocacy for change and ultimately all of us will have a point at which it’s “too little, too late”. But we are just customers. Real people’s livelihoods, relationships and working conditions are on the line. Those of us not actually impacted are just spectators and have no right to be setting timelines, imo.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas Keller wrote:
dirtypool wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
However, thhe burden of proof is still on the accuser

Who provided a corroborating witness in the form of the woman who had originally volunteered to share a room with her. The witness substantiated her claims.

I note that I have not seen any corroboration. If there is, it should be put on the allegations reddit.

As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

Silver Crusade

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Thomas Keller wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
dirtypool wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
However, thhe burden of proof is still on the accuser

Who provided a corroborating witness in the form of the woman who had originally volunteered to share a room with her. The witness substantiated her claims.

I note that I have not seen any corroboration. If there is, it should be put on the allegations reddit.
As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

Many of Jessica's claims were corroborated by Crystal, Crystal's were corroborated by Lissa.


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From a few post back. I should have said I do not have any knowledge the manager who stopped the sharing of the room got HR or legal advise rather than I do know. Sorry.

I think someone said that Paizo had adjusted its stance on customer service coming in to the office. If that is the case. Sarah may want reach out labor board. Had concerns about staff returning. voiced them. then let go. Not to long after Paizo revised stance. Labor Board may be resource available.


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Thomas Keller wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
dirtypool wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
However, thhe burden of proof is still on the accuser

Who provided a corroborating witness in the form of the woman who had originally volunteered to share a room with her. The witness substantiated her claims.

I note that I have not seen any corroboration. If there is, it should be put on the allegations reddit.
As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

Bad assumptions are bad. Many of the corroborations were happening in real time on the threads that many of us read all the way through. The corroborations are there, just because you haven't seen them with your own eyes does not mean they do not exist. And.... to be frank. I am not doing the work that you can do on your own if you really cared to. The accuser provided proof through multiple corroborations and the corroborating statements from Mona and Buhlman as well. Even if theirs are also denials of intent they still corroborate many of the items listed in the accusations.

also. I have not and do not use reddit. Demanding that information must be at one place which is easily editted and not actually official for it to be real is.... odd.


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Cori Marie wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
dirtypool wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:
However, thhe burden of proof is still on the accuser

Who provided a corroborating witness in the form of the woman who had originally volunteered to share a room with her. The witness substantiated her claims.

I note that I have not seen any corroboration. If there is, it should be put on the allegations reddit.
As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.
Many of Jessica's claims were corroborated by Crystal, Crystal's were corroborated by Lissa.

I was referring to the specific allegation that dirtypool was talking about. I have searched for corroboration by that specific person of that specific allegation and have found none. Dirtypool seemed so certain in their statement that I assumed they had seen this somewhere that I couldn't find. If anyone knows where it is, please post it, here or on the reddit dedicated to this topic.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas Keller wrote:

As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

On which specific allegation?

Dark Archive

Mark Stratton wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

On which specific allegation?

Someone please correct me if'n I'm wrong, but I believe Thomas Keller is referring to this post.


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Mark Stratton wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

On which specific allegation?

To quote dirtypool: "Who provided a corroborating witness in the form of the woman who had originally volunteered to share a room with her. The witness substantiated her claims."

Dark Archive

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Mark Stratton wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

As there has been no response to this, I will assume there has been no corroboration.

On which specific allegation?
Someone please correct me if'n I'm wrong, but I believe Thomas Keller is referring to this post.

UNH!

Rocked it!

*highfives self*


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I misspoke by claiming that the person who corroborated Crystals account was Amanda when in fact it was Lissa.

Thank you though for making sure the conversation moved in a direction to hold me accountable for that piece of information. It's an odd flex given your previous statements regarding Paizo accountability, but I'm sure you have your reasons.


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dirtypool wrote:

I misspoke by claiming that the person who corroborated Crystals account was Amanda when in fact it was Lissa.

Thank you though for making sure the conversation moved in a direction to hold me accountable for that piece of information. It's an odd flex given your previous statements regarding Paizo accountability, but I'm sure you have your reasons.

Nothing personal, I just like everything to be as clear as possible.

I've been using the reddit as my main source of information about this and I hadn't seen what you'd said so I was afraid I'd missed it somewhere.


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To be honest, I find the whole debate over corroboration tasteless, which isn't a comment on anyone taking part in it. It just doesn't really matter to me. Jessica corroborated the account, and Amanda certainly hasn't come out denying it, which are both, even being conservative, decent suggestions that it's true. Paizo has refused to deny it, and has even very indirectly admitted that this was a problem, which should encourage even the skeptics to take these allegations seriously. This would be easy for Paizo to deny, particularly as there would be multiple witnesses who could testify to it not being true. Why wouldn't they want to nip it in the bud? Why instead go silent in response? Some people might take, say, Lisa's word over Crystal's, but do you expect us to take a silent brick wall's word more seriously than the word of a trusted community member?

Fundamentally, I don't really need any of the above. Crystal said it was so, and I believe her. Nobody at Paizo has asked me to assume their innocence, so I won't.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

To be honest, I find the whole debate over corroboration tasteless, which isn't a comment on anyone taking part in it. It just doesn't really matter to me. Jessica corroborated the account, and Amanda certainly hasn't come out denying it, which are both, even being conservative, decent suggestions that it's true. Paizo has refused to deny it, and has even very indirectly admitted that this was a problem, which should encourage even the skeptics to take these allegations seriously. This would be easy for Paizo to deny, particularly as there would be multiple witnesses who could testify to it not being true. Why wouldn't they want to nip it in the bud? Why instead go silent in response? Some people might take, say, Lisa's word over Crystal's, but do you expect us to take a silent brick wall's word more seriously than the word of a trusted community member?

Fundamentally, I don't really need any of the above. Crystal said it was so, and I believe her. Nobody at Paizo has asked me to assume their innocence, so I won't.

It's probably just the critical thinker in me. Corroboration goes a long way to help establish a claim. I'd never heard of Crystal before this, so I couldn't make any firm judgment about what she said. I am pretty familiar with Amanda though and I'm pretty confident in her veracity. As you said, her lack of a denial is evidence in itself, and I'm sure her new employer has advised her not to comment.

As an aside, I'd just like to thank you, Kobold Cleaver, for your posts on this. I'm not very involved in the community here, but I think you and Cori Marie have really shone as genuinely thoughtful and kind people during this time. Thanks.

Paizo Employee Director of Community

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I'm asking everyone to take a pause, breathe, and consider if you need to engage before putting fingers back to keyboard. I understand the desire to have all the facts correct, but that doesn't excuse posting personal attacks or engaging in back-and-forth escalation. Grace for all, please, including our community!


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As an aside, I felt a little bad telling someone, "go email the team with your complaints" (which is the method they've asked us to engage if we have complaints, to be clear). So for the record, at the risk of calling for the spamming of their poor inbox, it's probably also fair to email them if you have positive things to say. Just, like, don't be passive aggressive. I personally am glad they've let these threads stay open, so I thanked them for their restraint.

Also, thank you, Thomas, that's very sweet. I feel awkward accepting compliments at the best of times, but I feel even awkwarder ignoring them. I echo the praise for Cori Marie wholeheartedly! Honestly, I have so much respect and appreciation for my trans siblings still doing their best to engage with these threads, including those who are mainly just lurking and favoriting. This whole week has been very painful, and I'm lucky to be more distanced from it than most because I'd already withdrawn a lot over the years. I got that grieving done early. I can't imagine having to process all that while still engaging with the kind of gentleness and honesty I've seen on here lately. <3

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