Paizo - Care to rebuttal?


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Sczarni

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https://mobile.twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1437545371245424640

I'm a little concerned about these accusations being leveled against the company.

I thought paizo was an ethical company and that's why I and many others supported it. Was I wrong? Are these accusations valid or invalid?

Please be civil in this post. I'd like to hear from paizo directly about this as one of their long time customers.

I'm sure others would like to hear as well.


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The only thing I really want to hear from them is what they're going to do to fix it.

Sczarni

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Cade Herrig wrote:
The only thing I really want to hear from them is what they're going to do to fix it.

You know what, 100% agreed!

I want to know if I need to start canceling my orders... only reason I buy the books is to support paizo. Everything is free on pathbuilder anyway.


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This is very much one of those things where lawyers are probably telling them not to say anything, so I wouldn't expect much. Edit: soon.


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Guntermench wrote:
This is very much one of those things where lawyers are probably telling them not to say anything, so I wouldn't expect much.

It would make sense to take a week or two to draft a serious response (with nothing on this subject in the meantime but a statement that they are doing that), but I don't think Paizo could survive a month or so of complete official silence on this issue.


Very true. I should amend my statement to include "soon".


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This is dumb relative to the importance of the issue, but: rebuttal is a noun. The topic should ask Paizo if they care to rebut, or if they care to provide a rebuttal.


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As Richard Lederer once wrote, any noun can be verbed.


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The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.


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I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.


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Zaister wrote:
As Richard Lederer once wrote, any noun can be verbed.

There was a great Calvin and Hobbes on the subject too.


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Justin Franklin wrote:
The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.

The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.
The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.

Well that's going to bite them in the ass.


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.
The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.

Why pre-recorded lectures are a problem, episode 432 :D


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.
The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.

Is it, though? They've never done that.


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So they fired their well regarded CS manager right before GenCon. I guess Paizo is lucky that they skipped out of the live event. This is bad, as in Blizzard bad. Paizo needs to put out something before this gets out of hand. I have a few subs myself and right now my finger is on the trigger.

Grand Lodge

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For those of us who have carried numerous personal relationships with Paizo employees for years knows this is nothing new. They have been acting this way for years and until now have enjoyed the fact that no one wants to burn down Paizo after the fact because they still have to work in this industry. However, it has gotten to the point that their reputation has gotten out to the rest of the industry and ex employees can share their thoughts with much less blowback. That Paizo is like this is incredibly disappointing. That they have been able to continue to do it, is disgusting.

If all you care about is the game material, this is unlikely to be more than a blip in your peripheral vision, however, if you have any interest in supporting good companies and not supporting bad ones, you will cancel your subscriptions, cancel your sidecarts and preorders, and refuse to provide Paizo another dime of revenue. May your conscious guide you.


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Zaister wrote:
RicoTheBold wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
The problem is they are going to be live on twitch tomorrow and that could turn into a real mess if there is no statement.
The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.
Is it, though? They've never done that.

Yea it has never been pre recorded before, although that would be a good idea as Erik can't ever fit it to the time.


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Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.

Some were blindsided, yes. We saw that in those employees sharing Diego and Sara's posts on Twitter that they were no longer with Paizo.

To the folks that terminated Sara Marie and saw Diego walk because of it, they have only themselves to blame for doing it the week of Gen Con.


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Zaister wrote:
The keynote is prerecorded, so don't expect anything from Erik Mona on that.
Is it, though? They've never done that.

This was mentioned by Aaron Shanks somewhere. Upside is it will also be posted to YouTube immediately afterward.

Whether you want to support Twitch/Amazon or YouTube/Google is a different ethical quandary.

Silver Crusade

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Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.

I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.


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Cori Marie wrote:
Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.
I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.

Yeah. They chose to blindside themselves. They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.


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CottonWolf wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.
I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.
Yeah. They chose to blindside themselves. They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

At best, this was simply spectacularly poor judgment. At worst, it was a deliberate attempt to bury the news by having GenCon talk drown it out. No sympathy at all.


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The flip side, from a manager's perspective, is that once a working relationship has deteriorated to the point of termination, it's probably best for all parties to have it happen sooner rather than later.

I would probably be more upset if the story were that Sara Marie and team had worked a bunch of extra hours to get through Gen Con and then she was fired anyway once her immediate usefulness was gone.


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Evan Tarlton wrote:
CottonWolf wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.
I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.
Yeah. They chose to blindside themselves. They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.
At best, this was simply spectacularly poor judgment. At worst, it was a deliberate attempt to bury the news by having GenCon talk drown it out. No sympathy at all.

There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.

Silver Crusade

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I recommend using some caution with the news of all of this. I do not think any of us have all the facts, nor are we likely to have all the facts on this issue for a long time coming. I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye.

If the allegations are true, then Paizo should announce the steps and efforts they will take to resolve this. If the allegations are unfounded, then Paizo needs to lay out their case.


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Nikk wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
CottonWolf wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.
I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.
Yeah. They chose to blindside themselves. They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.
At best, this was simply spectacularly poor judgment. At worst, it was a deliberate attempt to bury the news by having GenCon talk drown it out. No sympathy at all.
There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.

Here's the problem, though. They didn't just fire a manager. They fired the head of CS, who has had a great many interactions with the customer base, and was widely well-regarded as a result. They might not have predicted that other members of the staff would quit in protest, and they definitely didn't expect the fallout from that, but to not expect pushback from firing Sara Marie? If they're that out of touch with the customers, then they aren't good at their jobs.

Silver Crusade

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Nikk wrote:
Evan Tarlton wrote:
CottonWolf wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Uchuujin wrote:
I also understand it's GenCon. I don't think this timing was intentional, but it did hit them at the worst possible time. They are already quite busy and were blindsided by this. I don't expect a lot about this until perhaps after GenCon, maybe just a mea culpa for now, and something more in depth next week.
I mean, they chose to fire Sara during their busiest week of the year. That's on them.
Yeah. They chose to blindside themselves. They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.
At best, this was simply spectacularly poor judgment. At worst, it was a deliberate attempt to bury the news by having GenCon talk drown it out. No sympathy at all.
There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.

We actually have clear evidence that that is not the case. This thread that was started to let customers see the accountability of the customer service team showed the issues both pile up to over 1000 unanswered requests to steadily dropping over the last several months down to under 100 until subscription-related emails ballooned it back up a little.


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Nikk wrote:
There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.

If it was just firing a customer service manager, even one held in as high regard as Sara Marie apparently is (I haven't had much occasion to deal with her myself, so I can't really say), maybe. But when two other people resign in support, something real fishy is up.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
If it was just firing a customer service manager, even one held in as high regard as Sara Marie apparently is (I haven't had much occasion to deal with her myself, so I can't really say), maybe. But when two other people resign in support, something real fishy is up.

Based on what we know, my *guess* is that Sara Marie took a stand against unreasonable/unsafe demands being put on the CS team by out-of-touch management...and doing so cost her her job. Which would certainly explain the subsequent resignations.

But of course we won't know unless more information comes out (if it ever does). But in this case I'd personally find continued silence on Pazio's part rather telling.

Silver Crusade

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One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.


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bugleyman wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
If it was just firing a customer service manager, even one held in as high regard as Sara Marie apparently is (I haven't had much occasion to deal with her myself, so I can't really say), maybe. But when two other people resign in support, something real fishy is up.

Based on what we know, my *guess* is that Sara Marie took a stand against unreasonable/unsafe demands being put on the CS team by out-of-touch management...and doing so cost her her job. Which would certainly explain the subsequent resignations.

But of course we won't know unless more information comes out (if it ever does). But in this case I'd personally find continued silence on Pazio's part rather telling.

Perhaps. This just happened though, I assume Paizo will wait for all of the allegations, for whatever their worth, to come out before they holistically respond to the situation. I assume they will ignore grievances of the "a vacuum machine broke" level, but they'll want to knock out as much hearsay at once as possible.

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I had a very visceral reaction to the recent news, but I'm not sure that making a public statement in this matter is likely to be all that productive.

In a situation where onlookers have such a deep emotional investment, I suspect that people are going to read any statement in a light that supports their own conclusions. Furthermore, I'm not sure how the company can address the firing of a beloved employee in a way that doesn't sound like it's dragging her name through the mud.

As to the contents of Jessica Price's posts, this is far from the first time that she's engaged in a long and public discussion of her problems with Paizo. If there wasn't a response to any of the previous Twitter threads, I don't expect that there will be a response now.

This is a fairly knotty situation in which the public does not know the facts and probably never will. It's worth taking the time to analyze what is known and what is speculation. From there, drawing a final conclusion and determining the best way to engage in ethical consumption of media is, in my opinion, a very personal matter.


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Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

Silver Crusade

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I recognize that this is quite emotional for many; I do not know many of the folks personally involved, but in the business world, some industries can be very draconian when employees do not produce or don't row in the same direction as the CEO, board and the managers want. It is sad, but sometimes nice people get fired because they don't produce, or don't share the boat the same vision as their boss. I have seen it happen and it is gut-wrenching.

I suspect that this issue is or will quickly move into the realm of labor law attornies.

Silver Crusade

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Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.


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Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

Hi. I'm not sure if you're aware that around the country hospital beds are filling up to numbers rivaling last winter before the vaccine due to the delta variant and vaccine hesitancy.

It's absolutely evil at this moment. If someone can be working from home, they absolutely should be.

Dark Archive

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Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.

Pretty sure the warehouse staff have been there the entire time.


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Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.

And the only person in my 150+ person office that has to go in every day right now is me, what's your point?

Silver Crusade

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Kevin Mack wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.
Pretty sure the warehouse staff have been there the entire time.

Ah yes, get me on a technicality. But you're also incorrect. There were actual months where the warehouse team was not there.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Nikk wrote:
There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.
If it was just firing a customer service manager, even one held in as high regard as Sara Marie apparently is (I haven't had much occasion to deal with her myself, so I can't really say), maybe. But when two other people resign in support, something real fishy is up.

It’s a minor detail, but Lu left last month, prior to Sara Marie’s departure.

The timeline is getting a little muddied, given the need to draw from multiple sources.

Silver Crusade

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Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.
And the only person in my 150+ person office that has to go in every day right now is me, what's your point?

Do you not see how a single person being required to go in to an office is vastly different from an entire team that had been working just fine from home?


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Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
One of the very specific allegations is that the new manager wanted them all back in the office immediately.

Which, really, isn't exactly an uncommon thing at the moment. I know a number of people whose companies are very "work from the office, where we can supervise you, or find other work".

It's irritating, but hardly evil.

The only department this is being requested of seems to be customer service. That's where the problem lies.
And the only person in my 150+ person office that has to go in every day right now is me, what's your point?
Do you not see how a single person being required to go in to an office is vastly different from an entire team that had been working just fine from home?

I'm not the only one in the office, just the only one that HAS to be there. Everyone else can choose.

I'm perfectly capable of doing my job from home, had been for months. But nope, drew the short straw.


Steve Geddes wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Nikk wrote:
There's no reason to wade into conspiracy theories. We do not know why Paizo fired a customer service manager, but they probably weren't evil villain mustache twirling. Usually a company fires a manager because there's a problem / problems in the team that the manager has been (repeatedly) unable to resolve. If Paizo has been unable to turn the customer service dept around, its not surprising they would let a manager go. I find it unlikely Paizo expected -any- pushback from firing a manager, much less use a convention in some sort of coverup for it.
If it was just firing a customer service manager, even one held in as high regard as Sara Marie apparently is (I haven't had much occasion to deal with her myself, so I can't really say), maybe. But when two other people resign in support, something real fishy is up.

It’s a minor detail, but Lu left last month, prior to Sara Marie’s departure.

The timeline is getting a little muddied, given the need to draw from multiple sources.

Was it within the last three weeks? Because that would certainly point to them being connected.


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Lu intimated it was connected, at least loosely. I don’t know exactly when though - just that it wasn’t triggered by Sara Marie’s departure the way Diego’s resignation was.
That was my only point (granted a minor one).


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Given the timing, the most logical inference would be that the conditions that led Lu to leave Paizo were among the factors leading Sara Marie to take whatever action(s) led to her being fired.

So that would leave Diego as the only customer service employee known to have quit in response to Sara Marie's firing. (Please correct me if I am wrong here.)

I have noticed that Diego has received many recommendations from Paizo folks for future employment, but I have seen no such recommendations for Sara Marie. On the other hand, I cannot imagine Sara Marie doing anything that would justify that treatment of her.


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She hasn’t posted a public tweet looking for work that they can retweet, the way Diego has. (Her Twitter account is private).


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David knott 242 wrote:


I have noticed that Diego has received many recommendations from Paizo folks for future employment, but I have seen no such recommendations for Sara Marie. On the other hand, I cannot imagine Sara Marie doing anything that would justify that treatment of her.

Also, Mark Moreland did in his tweet on the topic. Most Paizo staffers haven't tweeted anything outside of responses to Diego’s tweet, as pointed out by Steve.

If it were me, it would probably take a few days to put my thoughts together. But I don't even have a Twitter account, so I'm more inclined to write a recommendation on LinkedIn or offer to be a reference.


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Don't know about the details behind this private matter, but I do know that yet another vitriolic diatribe from Jessica Price has me struggling to not assume Paizo's in the right purely because she says they're not.

Sorry folks, but anything that invokes her is automatically suspect.

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