Paizo - Care to rebuttal?


Paizo General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Nikk wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Nikk wrote:
The alternate sources are second and third hand anecdotes. We've yet to hear from anyone directly affected by a specific claim. We're castigating a company over hearsay.
Several things are corroborated by Crystal Frasier, including the carpet part. At least google this stuff before you make yourself look like you don't know what's going on.
Apologies, I did not realize "the carpet was dirty" was a core argument that people were waiving their pitchforks over.

Wow what good faith you're using "carpet is dirty" and "office is so dusty that people were getting sick and had to have inhalers at their desk to avoid hospitalization" are vastly different things, but sure, the carpet was just a little dirty.


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So my question is if it happened to someone in your close family would you be feeling the same way?

By your logic then it’s well and good if they pass away because of the terrible actions they might have done to someone else.

Silver Crusade

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Absolutely, yes. When my mom dies, I will be the first person to breathe a sigh of relief that she can't hurt me anymore.


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Particular Jones wrote:

So my question is if it happened to someone in your close family would you be feeling the same way?

By your logic then it’s well and good if they pass away because of the terrible actions they might have done to someone else.

Well, it's not good just by default because someone might have done something bad. Everyone "might" have.

I would personally likely be upset if someone trashed a dead close family member - though I like to think if I then learned they had been abused or attacked by that family member, I'd understand. Possibly with some distance or time.

But that's not really what we're talking about here: No one here has claimed to be a close family member (or even personal friend) of the person in question. This is just an abstract "I despise this person because she said something bad about someone who died." No personal feelings involved.

And as I said above 'The kindest thing I can say is "I'm glad he's no longer around to keep doing harm."' is a lot milder than I was expecting for the vitriol thrown at her for it.


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Cori Marie wrote:
Absolutely, yes. When my mom dies, I will be the first person to breathe a sigh of relief that she can't hurt me anymore.

*snorts* that's how you weaponize trauma and turn it into your strength, well done, youngling.

Really, I think I'm gonna pour myself some Laphroaig, that was so well played that I need to drink to that.

Silver Crusade

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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Absolutely, yes. When my mom dies, I will be the first person to breathe a sigh of relief that she can't hurt me anymore.

*snorts* that's how you weaponize trauma and turn it into your strength, well done, youngling.

Really, I think I'm gonna pour myself some Laphroaig, that was so well played that I need to drink to that.

Actually I have to amend this, my sister will likely be the first to breathe a sigh of relief because the ***** lives with her.


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Thank you for proving my point.

Dark Archive

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Cool upside to the random troll: I found a chrome extension that lets you block users and hide posts!

In case anyone feels like blocking me, or anyone else!


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Mergy wrote:

Cool upside to the random troll: I found a chrome extension that lets you block users and hide posts!

In case anyone feels like blocking me, or anyone else!

Sadly it doesn’t work on the phone versions of the Chrome application.


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That Heather F is an absolute gem - now I feel kinda bad she's gunna have to delete all those posts :/

Liberty's Edge

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Cross posting, everyone should take a moment today to read Owen's thoughts about Paizo Twitter Thread


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So you seem to care quite a bit about Paizo and are
concerned about the staff who were let go. Thank you for that.

I can say this. I can say that companies are requiring staff in some capacity to return to the office that do not
have a medical exception (at risk). If that employee refuses they may be let go. That would not be outside
the norm. We would need to be mad at Amazon, Walmart, Game Distribution Centers, and Game Stores for having employees return to the job site. Really 95 percent of the business.

As far as the court of public opinion. I would be cautious
of this. You do not want to arrest someone and put them
in prison just due to an allegation. We do not want people to be let go at Paizo for allegations alone.

For the two people who come up allot that are not the customer service representatives. I am going to go back to an earlier point. If you want to affect true change at company file compliant with the State Labor Board or Federal EEOC. They can mediate for the employees settlements or proceed with legal action. These are much more effective ways to create lasting change than tweet. Someone indicated previously that a manager had sent inappropriate pictures. If this was the case than why not go to the labor board or EEOC and file harassment charges. If there were pictures from manager case is pretty solid.

Anyhow thank you for your concern for Paizo, staff, former staff, and the community.

Wish I was at Gen Con. Next year maybe


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Dave2 wrote:

I can say this. I can say that companies are requiring staff in some capacity to return to the office that do not

have a medical exception (at risk). If that employee refuses they may be let go. That would not be outside
the norm. We would need to be mad at Amazon, Walmart, Game Distribution Centers, and Game Stores for having employees return to the job site. Really 95 percent of the business.

The idea that Paizo letting Sara Marie go in a manner and for a cause that has not been declared is akin to employees being let go for refusing to return to warehouse distribution, and retail jobs is probably one best left unexplored.

Sara Maries termination may have been for reasons of returning to work, and also may not have. Speculation in that way is unwarranted - and speculation that blanketly absolves Paizo and urges everyone else to move on adds nothing meaningful to this exchange.

Dave 2 wrote:

As far as the court of public opinion. I would be cautious

of this. You do not want to arrest someone and put them
in prison just due to an allegation. We do not want people to be let go at Paizo for allegations alone.

We should all stop using legal analogies for this, right now. First, because this is a public/customer relations matter and not a legal matter. Secondly, because most of the legal analogies used fail to properly represent the legal system. For example, people are often arrested based on allegations. Arrested, pending charges, aka the 20 minute mark of an episode of Law & Order


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The other part said incarnated off of one persons hearsay statements. Also I believe it was mentioned it was return to work issue. Finally also there are very few instances when an employer is said to have wide spread issues of abuse, harassment, and discrimination that a labor board, lawyer, or EEOC is not contacted unless it is hearsay. I also mentioned game stores and 95 percent of employees.


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Dave2 wrote:

The other part said incarnated off of one persons hearsay statements. Also I believe it was mentioned it was return to work issue. Finally also there are very few instances when an employer is said to have wide spread issues of abuse, harassment, and discrimination that a labor board, lawyer, or EEOC is not contacted unless it is hearsay. I also mentioned game stores and 95 percent of employees.

Right now the reasons we hear are all rumors, nothing confirmed, when it comes to Sara Marie. Diego stated he voluntarily left in support of Sara Marie. Just for clarification.

If anyone has clarification please link up.

I wouldn't call the issue widespread at Paizo. But I would say that they have some house cleaning to do with real action. Otherwise they should be prepared to lose the customers who have walked.

I love Paizo as a company. I support their work. It is fantastic. It is inclusive.

But the rumors, which have NOT been denied or acknowledged are troubling and people like me are watching to see if the Company will adhere to what it professes are its core values, or if they will simply move on as if nothing is wrong. Too many former employees have spoken up now. Current employees including Mona and Buhlman are admitting there are issues that they think need fixing in their current statements beyond the accusations they acknowledged.

But all of that said, the rumors and accusations have little to do with the cornerstone that causedt he upheaval which is the dismissal of what has become the face of Paizo for many of us, especially the subscribers, and the way it has blown up I am guessing that they did not expect this kind of blow back. So I hope they are taking it as serious as we are.


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They cannot clean house based of of rumors and hearsay evidence. Well they can, but are then open to actions from the labor board on wrongfully terminations. Someone making an allegation is not grounds on its own (without an investigation) for disciplinary action or termination. HR and HR lawyers can tell you that.

As far as the return to work being the reason for the
separation. You are correct it is not known, but mentioned multiple times beginning this thread.


Dave2 wrote:

They cannot clean house based of of rumors and hearsay evidence. Well they can, but are then open to actions from the labor board on wrongfully terminations. Someone making an allegation is not grounds on its own (without an investigation) for disciplinary action or termination. HR and HR lawyers can tell you that.

As far as the return to work being the reason for the
separation. You are correct it is not known, but mentioned multiple times beginning this thread.

They can't clean house based on rumors or hearsay, but if there's truth to the rumors and hearsay, the people at the top of Paizo definitely know about at least some of them - because some of them are directly involved. Which means they can cover up or respond to them. And investigate the ones they don't already know about.


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Then said employees should go to the labor board and EEOC rather than tweet. They will not get any recourse or affect change based on Tweets. If this has been going on for all these years and been Tweeted about. Not much change has occurred. For those that work go to your HR department and ask them is it better to go through HR first, the Labor Board, and EEOC or Tweet about it. The labor board and EEOC will inquire about if you tried to resolve it internally first.

Also yes refusing to return to work when it is department requirement is grounds for disciplinary action up to termination without medical exception.


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Dave2 wrote:

Then said employees should go to the labor board and EEOC rather than tweet. They will not get any recourse or affect change based on Tweets. If this has been going on for all these years and been Tweeted about. Not much change has occurred. For those that work go to your HR department and ask them is it better to go through HR first, the Labor Board, and EEOC or Tweet about it. The labor board and EEOC will inquire about if you tried to resolve it internally first.

Also yes refusing to return to work when it is department requirement is grounds for disciplinary action up to termination without medical exception.

HR's job is to protect the company. Of course they want you to go through them first. In many companies, especially the more toxic ones, HR will screw over anyone who comes to them with complaints about management.


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Zaister wrote:
As Richard Lederer once wrote, any noun can be verbed.
There was a great Calvin and Hobbes on the subject too.

Verbing weirds language.

Shadow Lodge

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I'm vibing with it.


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An example of using a labor board is the State of California vs Activision/Blizzard. I believe the department labor for California did an investigation and then state California sued. This has impacted management at Blizzard has changed as result. It took time but change occurred as result of brining in State California.


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We should be sure Sara Marie knows that if she thinks she has a legal case worth bringing but cannot afford a lawyer, she can probably raise the needed money quickly via crowdfunding, if the threads in this forum are any indication.


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David knott 242 wrote:


We should let her know that if Sara Marie thinks she has a legal case worth bringing but cannot afford a lawyer, she can probably raise the needed money quickly via crowdfunding, if the threads in this forum are any indication.

+1 to this.

Silver Crusade

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Dave2 wrote:

They cannot clean house based of of rumors and hearsay evidence. Well they can, but are then open to actions from the labor board on wrongfully terminations. Someone making an allegation is not grounds on its own (without an investigation) for disciplinary action or termination. HR and HR lawyers can tell you that.

As far as the return to work being the reason for the
separation. You are correct it is not known, but mentioned multiple times beginning this thread.

Cleaning house doesn't necessarily mean terminations. It may mean implementing policies to prevent things that have been raised from happening in the future.

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