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Actually firing a bolt into the air is a Strike because there may or may not be an undected creature in any given space at any given time.That only works if you are targeting a square and make the flat roll. As you wouldn't be doing you auto-fail the roll and "If you fail, you don’t affect the creature". So even if a familiar fire a shot and it happened to pass through a square with an invisible creature, it can't be a Strike as it never targeted the creature [you need to pick a square]. "If you suspect there’s a creature around, you can pick a square and attempt an attack.": the familiar in question isn't picking a square, so it's not an attack.
Even if there is no target, the familiar still has to aim its shot somewhere, ie pick a square and attack / shoot.
Even if there is no target, the familiar still has to aim its shot somewhere, ie pick a square and attack / shoot.Actually firing a bolt into the air is a Strike because there may or may not be an undected creature in any given space at any given time.That only works if you are targeting a square and make the flat roll. As you wouldn't be doing you auto-fail the roll and "If you fail, you don’t affect the creature". So even if a familiar fire a shot and it happened to pass through a square with an invisible creature, it can't be a Strike as it never targeted the creature [you need to pick a square]. "If you suspect there’s a creature around, you can pick a square and attempt an attack.": the familiar in question isn't picking a square, so it's not an attack.
Why? It fires "up" picking no square. I don't see why the someone is REQUIRED to pick a single 5' square 600' up in the air... The bolt passed through 599 other squares to get there and any invisible targets are still missed. In fact, you may not be able to see the end square but the bolt can get there.
When you wield something, you're ready to use it. Familiars can't make Strikes. Unsure if this means they can RAW wield items.LOL There is this line before that though: "You're wielding an item any time you're holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively." They could hold in the the right number of hands and use it [fire a bolt] without a strike. This leads to a situation where you can have a familiar holding a crossbow in master's form but being 100% unable to aim at a target and pull the trigger but could shoot a bolt into the air. And here is a brain teaser: give that familiar bolas. They can then throw them at a target for the ranged trip even though they can't strike them as it's a skill check. ;)
My understanding of the opposing argument that allows familiar to reload a crossbow is actually arguing that the familiar is never actually wielding the crossbow. The Reload rules don't actually list that as a requirement. An assumed requirement that the reloading creature is holding the weapon, and having a free hand to do the reloading with.
My understanding of the opposing argument that allows familiar to reload a crossbow is actually arguing that the familiar is never actually wielding the crossbow.
That's the argument: the issue is that wielding requires you be able to use it, not strike with it. I see it as being able to fire it, while other might say it's strike wit it.
As to "arguing that the familiar is never actually wielding the crossbow", that makes NO sense to me as to reload, you have to be able to use it: how would you describe reloading if you don't use the crossbow?
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My apologies if this has already been covered in the thread - I haven't read all 200+ posts. I've got two characters with independent/valet familiars. Prepping to play online for gencon this weekend I'm realizing that independent/valet doesn't work anymore (if it ever did - it never occurred to me that it wouldn't but I can see the argument against it now) and wondering what - if anything - my familiars are good for? One of the characters is an alchemist and I can't really see any use at all now, beyond giving my PC an extra reagent/day. The other character is a wizard - I was planning to have the familiar be his scroll caddy but it now seems that there's really no reason not to just retrieve the scrolls himself, in which case the familiar doesn't seem like it offers too much - the best I can find are an extra cantrip, regaining a focus point (not bad, though this wizard doesn't have a focus pool), and later on getting an extra spell slot. None of that seems too interesting so I'm inclined to retrain out of the familiars for both characters but thought I would check here first.
In short: what, if anything, can a familiar do now?
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My apologies if this has already been covered in the thread - I haven't read all 200+ posts. I've got two characters with independent/valet familiars. Prepping to play online for gencon this weekend I'm realizing that independent/valet doesn't work anymore (if it ever did - it never occurred to me that it wouldn't but I can see the argument against it now) and wondering what - if anything - my familiars are good for? One of the characters is an alchemist and I can't really see any use at all now, beyond giving my PC an extra reagent/day. The other character is a wizard - I was planning to have the familiar be his scroll caddy but it now seems that there's really no reason not to just retrieve the scrolls himself, in which case the familiar doesn't seem like it offers too much - the best I can find are an extra cantrip, regaining a focus point (not bad, though this wizard doesn't have a focus pool), and later on getting an extra spell slot. None of that seems too interesting so I'm inclined to retrain out of the familiars for both characters but thought I would check here first.
It depends entirely on what your GM allows.
Some things for an alchemist familiar that should work in combat:
* Some of the sense improvement abilities and have the familiar use Point Out on an enemy trying to hide.
* Speech + Skilled and Recall Knowledge checks. Familiar can make the recall knowledge checks and announce the results. You could make the check yourself if you have the skill, but you would have to spend another action to announce the results. So this saves one action on skills that you have for getting the information to your entire party. It also gives you the results for skills that no one in the party has.
* I think that Skilled in Intimidate and Demoralize actions are still legal. And it looks really amusing as an added bonus.
And that is pretty much it that I am aware of.
In short: what, if anything, can a familiar do now?
Yup. That's pretty much the complaint.
My apologies if this has already been covered in the thread - I haven't read all 200+ posts. I've got two characters with independent/valet familiars. Prepping to play online for gencon this weekend I'm realizing that independent/valet doesn't work anymore (if it ever did - it never occurred to me that it wouldn't but I can see the argument against it now) and wondering what - if anything - my familiars are good for? One of the characters is an alchemist and I can't really see any use at all now, beyond giving my PC an extra reagent/day. The other character is a wizard - I was planning to have the familiar be his scroll caddy but it now seems that there's really no reason not to just retrieve the scrolls himself, in which case the familiar doesn't seem like it offers too much - the best I can find are an extra cantrip, regaining a focus point (not bad, though this wizard doesn't have a focus pool), and later on getting an extra spell slot. None of that seems too interesting so I'm inclined to retrain out of the familiars for both characters but thought I would check here first.
In short: what, if anything, can a familiar do now?
Independent can still allow for them to do something each round without a command, and Valet can still allow them to place up to two items into your hand each round. There are other familiar abilities that can be helpful, as well as having a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.
For your alchemist and wizard, a Manual Dexterity+Valet familiar could be commanded to retrieve two scrolls or alchemical items, the second after the first has been cast/used. This would allow you to cast the other scroll/use the other item without spending another action to retrieve it (1 extra action for you if you intended to use two light or negligible bulk items).
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Sounds awesome on paper doesn't it.
Independent can still allow for them to do something each round without a command,
Which would be great if 'run away' wasn't the most beneficial thing that a familiar does in combat.
and Valet can still allow them to place up to two items into your hand each round.
Quick Bomber has the same action improvement. And I don't know of any other characters that even infrequently need to get two items in a single round.
There are other familiar abilities that can be helpful, as well as having a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.
These are the exploration/downtime activities that I would love to have clarified on if and how they work.
utility: sometimes doesn't work - depends on GM ruling.
scouting: almost certainly doesn't work - though that also depends on GM ruling ... and maybe houserules.
comfort: the role-play use of familiar. While awesome, generally role-play decorations shouldn't cost class feats.
But now I just feel that I am being snarky. I would love to have familiars be something useful to have. But the RAW doesn't really allow for that. Finding something useful for them to do takes a great deal of investigation, rules reading, and piecing things together. If the GM allows for it, it works reasonably well. But if the GM wants to shut it down and simply say 'well, that's the rules. sorry (not sorry)', it is almost impossible to point to anything that says that it is actually supposed to work.
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having a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.
Scouting if questionable: since exploration mode and minions need for commands isn't detailed, you'll see some DM's fall on the side of them still needing commands every 6 seconds so it can only scout 75' before it sits still and waits to see what you want it to do or you yell another command at it.
having a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.
Scouting if questionable: since exploration mode and minions need for commands isn't detailed, you'll see some DM's fall on the side of them still needing commands every 6 seconds so it can only scout 75' before it sits still and waits to see what you want it to do or you yell another command at it.
But now I just feel that I am being snarky. I would love to have familiars be something useful to have. But the RAW doesn't really allow for that. Finding something useful for them to do takes a great deal of investigation, rules reading, and piecing things together. If the GM allows for it, it works reasonably well. But if the GM wants to shut it down and simply say 'well, that's the rules. sorry (not sorry)', it is almost impossible to point to anything that says that it is actually supposed to work.
Yeah, pretty much this. Anything beyond treating it as an item runs the risk of being useless/unworkable.
having a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.Scouting if questionable: since exploration mode and minions need for commands isn't detailed, you'll see some DM's fall on the side of them still needing commands every 6 seconds so it can only scout 75' before it sits still and waits to see what you want it to do or you yell another command at it.
I haven't met a GM that terrible
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I haven't met a GM that terriblehaving a Tiny character for utility/scouting/comfort.Scouting if questionable: since exploration mode and minions need for commands isn't detailed, you'll see some DM's fall on the side of them still needing commands every 6 seconds so it can only scout 75' before it sits still and waits to see what you want it to do or you yell another command at it.
LOL Well I've met some pretty good DM that did so, and it's not like I can fault them as it follows minion rules and improvising exploration activities rules. A DM shouldn't have to house-rule [IMO] to have something be "terrible".
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* I think that Skilled in Intimidate and Demoralize actions are still legal. And it looks really amusing as an added bonus.
I have such a Familiar. It works... at low levels. As neither the Familiar proficiency nor item bonus increase, you end up at -11 against someone who's good at Intimidate. So, after level 6 you just forget about it.
It's even worse for Recall Knowledge checks as there are critical failures, so at some point your Familiar will mostly give wrong information.And the Independent + Manual Dexterity combo to be able to retrieve an item for free in the next round is hardly usable. I don't see many cases where I have such precise information about what I'll need to use soon. Also, it cost 2 abilities so one class feat for such a niche effect.
Valet is the only useful ability left with the few spell battery abilities. Even if you don't often need 2 items immediately, but at least it only costs one ability.
Quick Bomber doesn't let you Double Slice, Valet does.
Quick bomber also doesn't work on elixirs; valet does.
It's less flexible than independent/manual dexterity, but valet does still net the alchemist the same action economy.
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There's also the aspiring gnome javelin wielder who can't be bothered for returning. And a reading of the minion trait that prevents them from doing anything outside of an encounter seems a bit beyond what's actually written there.
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that's a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits. If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please. A minion can't control other creatures.
The "can't act when it's not your turn" part suggests that might be the case, but how would that work riding an animal minion overland in exploration mode? Doesn't seem like following its instincts to be directed towards a location, and unless the whole journey is in encounter mode then this might prevent it from doing anything at all.
It seems much more reasonable to me that the minion rules are applied for combat (especially considering how many times the word 'turn' occurs), and that outside of that they function as any other NPC.
The "can't act when it's not your turn" part suggests that might be the case, but how would that work riding an animal minion overland in exploration mode? Doesn't seem like following its instincts to be directed towards a location, and unless the whole journey is in encounter mode then this might prevent it from doing anything at all.
It seems much more reasonable to me that the minion rules are applied for combat (especially considering how many times the word 'turn' occurs), and that outside of that they function as any other NPC.
Yup. And this has been debated back and forth again and again.
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Independent + Manual Dex is still a pretty decent option.
Have it start with 2 whatevers in hand, you can get one free draw for the first two turns, and then every turn thereafter you can alternate between having it draw and having it give the item to you.
Thinking about it, e.g. on a Twisting Tree magus. You could take Scroll Striker. That would give you one scroll per combat. Or you could just one hand your staff, and have a familiar with independent, manual dex and 2 scrolls. That gives you 2 scrolls per combat, plus an extra one every 2 turns if you need it.
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Yeah, does the familiar need an action to move with you though? Did we ever get an answer on whether a familiar can "ride" on the player?Independent + Manual Dex is still a pretty decent option.
Have it start with 2 whatevers in hand, you can get one free draw for the first two turns, and then every turn thereafter you can alternate between having it draw and having it give the item to you.
Thinking about it, e.g. on a Twisting Tree magus. You could take Scroll Striker. That would give you one scroll per combat. Or you could just one hand your staff, and have a familiar with independent, manual dex and 2 scrolls. That gives you 2 scrolls per combat, plus an extra one every 2 turns if you need it.
Mount action covers that right?
Mount action covers that right?Yeah, does the familiar need an action to move with you though? Did we ever get an answer on whether a familiar can "ride" on the player?Independent + Manual Dex is still a pretty decent option.
Have it start with 2 whatevers in hand, you can get one free draw for the first two turns, and then every turn thereafter you can alternate between having it draw and having it give the item to you.
Thinking about it, e.g. on a Twisting Tree magus. You could take Scroll Striker. That would give you one scroll per combat. Or you could just one hand your staff, and have a familiar with independent, manual dex and 2 scrolls. That gives you 2 scrolls per combat, plus an extra one every 2 turns if you need it.
There is the special rules section that notes how tiny PC's riding a normal size PC works and both lose an action, the larger one spends one action keeping the smaller one balanced on their back, and the Tiny one spends one action maintaining their grip. This is also said in Different Types of Mounts: "It’s recommended you disallow humanoid creatures and most other bipeds as mounts, especially if they are PCs. If you choose to allow this anyway, either the rider or mount should use at least one hand to hold onto the other, and both should spend an action on each of their turns to remain mounted." So if we're going by the mount rules, it looks like the familiar is a net lose in actions.
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As a Tiny creature, a sprite PC weighs so little and takes up so little Bulk that it doesn't cause issues to hitch a ride in a sack, shoulder, or other position on another PC. However, the amount of coordination required to ensure you don't get in each other's way or jostle each other into losing actions makes this tactic unfavorable for most fellow adventurers during combat. If you're riding along with another PC or similar non-minion intelligent creature, roll both your initiatives and use the lower of the two results. You act in either order on the same initiative count. While traveling in this way, you each gain two actions at the start of your turn, instead of three, since they spend one action keeping you balanced on their back, and you spend one action maintaining your grip.
The mount rules are for common cases: humanoids riding quadrupedal animals. However, you might allow someone to ride a beast or other type of creature by making a few adjustments. For an intelligent mount (such as a pegasus or unicorn), use the standard rules for mounted combat, but instead of attempting a check to Command an Animal, the rider uses the same number of actions to ask the creature to do what they want. As the GM, you determine whether the creature does as requested and whether Diplomacy checks or the like are needed. It’s recommended you disallow humanoid creatures and most other bipeds as mounts, especially if they are PCs. If you choose to allow this anyway, either the rider or mount should use at least one hand to hold onto the other, and both should spend an action on each of their turns to remain mounted.
Looks like this is another similarly unclear on whether or not that rule is supposed to apply to non minions mounting you, or anything mounting you.
As a Tiny creature, a sprite PC weighs so little and takes up so little Bulk that it doesn't cause issues to hitch a ride in a sack, shoulder, or other position on another PC. However, the amount of coordination required to ensure you don't get in each other's way or jostle each other into losing actions makes this tactic unfavorable for most fellow adventurers during combat. If you're riding along with another PC or similar non-minion intelligent creature, roll both your initiatives and use the lower of the two results. You act in either order on the same initiative count. While traveling in this way, you each gain two actions at the start of your turn, instead of three, since they spend one action keeping you balanced on their back, and you spend one action maintaining your grip.The mount rules are for common cases: humanoids riding quadrupedal animals. However, you might allow someone to ride a beast or other type of creature by making a few adjustments. For an intelligent mount (such as a pegasus or unicorn), use the standard rules for mounted combat, but instead of attempting a check to Command an Animal, the rider uses the same number of actions to ask the creature to do what they want. As the GM, you determine whether the creature does as requested and whether Diplomacy checks or the like are needed. It’s recommended you disallow humanoid creatures and most other bipeds as mounts, especially if they are PCs. If you choose to allow this anyway, either the rider or mount should use at least one hand to hold onto the other, and both should spend an action on each of their turns to remain mounted.Looks like this is another similarly unclear on whether or not that rule is supposed to apply to non minions mounting you, or anything mounting you.
They cover animal companions being used by mounts, so it seems to me that that covers the non-minion part when combined with "The mount rules are for common cases: humanoids riding quadrupedal animals": which again, generally covers animal companions being used.
Then, there is Familiar master.
Familiar Master as a way to get your witch familiar upgrade feats and the feat to channel spells is a great way to get super extended range on all your spells. Make a fast (80' move per command, 40' if independent), flying (ignore difficult terrain), durable (extra HP, save boosts, etc.) and have it set up near enemies while you're as far back as possible but with LOS, then use the extra action to channel your spells through your familiar.
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I appreciate all these suggestions. All in all, I think I'm going to retrain out of both of my familiars (my alchemist and my wizard each has one). It's a shame because I think familiars are a great RP tool but as someone on here said, it shouldn't cost you a feat for something that doesn't have a lot of utility beyond RP.
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Being honest I don't know why Paizo has so afraid of familiars.
As rapidly comparison the ranger's animal companions can be taken with only level 1 feat in same way that a wizard take's familiar but animal companions is way better. They can attack, they have support abilities and they use their own MAP and have good AC.
So why in the hell the familiar is so limited? Why not just allow them to activate itens freely? Or even attack? Why they aren't balanced closely to animal companions I don't see why Paizo has so afraid of them I don't know why Paizo has so afraid of casters in general. Why not just take an animal companion base and remove the support and the advanced maneuver and substitute them for familiar abilities.
The currently familiars are just weak for none good reason.
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As rapidly comparison the ranger's animal companions can be taken with only level 1 feat in same way that a wizard take's familiar but animal companions is way better. They can attack, they have support abilities and they use their own MAP and have good AC.
The thing is animal companions are quite bad with only a level 1 feat: it's VERY feat intensive to keep one up. You'll need 4 more feats just for upkeep and a ranger could easily spend 5 more on companion specific feats. The difference between them and familiars is that feats spent on them gets you more optional abilities instead of altering the familiars basic stats. It's combat vs utility, though I wish the familiar got as much utility as the companion gets combat abilities.
So why in the hell the familiar is so limited?
If I had to guess, it's about breaking action economy with a creature that can have Hands. Much like they where VERY careful so that summoners and Eidolons couldn't both cast 2 action spells [one has to take a single action with Act Together]. They clearly wanted PC's to stand out from pets and like a lot of things it got some serious nerf-hammering from PF1. I personally don't think it's needed but I also don't think adding a hand to a weapon should cost an action either.
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I still don't understand this afraid that Paizo have about familiars. I played 3.5 and PF1 and I saw players using their familiars in many creative ways (usually taking dangerous information gathering or stealing some prison key) but I never saw someone exploiting then to break the game or even do something fantastic that could make them OP. Even if a familiar uses their 2 action to activate an item like drink o thrown a potion this still so situational and limited (because the mostly activation itens have many usage limits and requisites) even if they could they are still so weak and limited that they still barely useful.
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I think one issue comparing them with ACs is that familiars are somewhat intelligent and have more capabilities in general. Animal companions mostly interact with the world in a very linear fashion, they aren't smart and they can't really do much besides fight, which makes them much easier to balance and makes it less important to worry about controls.
The other thought is that I don't think it's really fear so much as that a basic familiar is one feat. If you compare a familiar in its most limited form, basically your two favorite master abilities + a little bit of random utility, it's already kind of pushing it compared to other first level feats.
I mean just look at Eschew Materials. That's what getting a familiar is competing with.
I played 3.5 and PF1 and I saw players using their familiars in many creative ways (usually taking dangerous information gathering or stealing some prison key)
I think that there might be a worry for them: they don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info.
Even if a familiar uses their 2 action to activate an item like drink o thrown a potion this still so situational and limited (because the mostly activation itens have many usage limits and requisites) even if they could they are still so weak and limited that they still barely useful.
I think the worry would be a wand or Tiny staff: a familiar with Spellcasting can cast a spell "using your magical tradition, spell attack modifier, and spell DC." This seems like it'd be enough to prepare a staff [and put charges in it!]. Even if it's just a wand, just pick a low level spell(s) that keeps it's usefulness and buy them a sack of those wands and have it use that spell every round.
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I mean just look at Eschew Materials. That's what getting a familiar is competing with.
That is not what getting a familiar is competing with.
Yes, Eschew Materials is also a level 1 class feat. For a Wizard. For practically every other spellcasting class (Witch being the only exception) they get some equivalent of Eschew Materials for free as a class feature. Not even a named class feature - just a quick sentence in their Spellcasting class feature.
So yeah. Eschew Materials is a really weak class feat. It shouldn't be held up as the gold standard for the appropriate power level of a typical level 1 class feat.
For Human spellcasters that have access to a familiar, the feat is also competing against things like Reach Spell, Spellbook Prodigy (at least temporarily until the skill feat comes available), Magus's Analysis, and Arcane Fists.
For all other spellcasters, either non-Human or archetype, the Familiar feat is also competing against all of the level 2 class feats also.
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None of those are particularly stellar either.
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I played 3.5 and PF1 and I saw players using their familiars in many creative ways (usually taking dangerous information gathering or stealing some prison key)I think that there might be a worry for them: they don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info.
I think that the skill bonuses available to a familiar will already automatically prevent this.
Any character that builds for something is never going to be outclassed by a familiar. The math behind skill bonuses doesn't support it.
At best, the familiar gets level + 5. And that is only at really high levels of play.
A worst case character build where they can reasonably say that they are building for something, a character is going to have a 14 in the ability score and training in the skill. That gives them level + 4. Increasing their ability score to 16 will have them draw even with the familiar at level + 5. Leaving the ability score at 14 and increasing their proficiency will give them level + 6, which is better than the familiar already.
For a character that is actually building to have a skill used for on-level tasks during exploration mode, they will easily outclass the familiar.
Explicitly forbidding familiars from even being available to do anything during exploration mode is just overkill. Completely unnecessary for preventing overshadowing other characters, and completely crippling for characters that want or need to have a familiar that feels like they are contributing to the party in any meaningful way.
I think that the skill bonuses available to a familiar will already automatically prevent this.
Not really: you untether a familiar from Command and give it the ability to cast invisibility along with it's tiny size and customizable speed types and it can curb stomp any spying/info gathering a PC could do. Most of this doesn't require an actual roll, assuming people aren't murdering every tiny animal that they see.
Any character that builds for something is never going to be outclassed by a familiar. The math behind skill bonuses doesn't support it.
Fly, climb, swim, burrow speeds on a tiny unassuming animal that doesn't NEED to roll things like hide/stealth because it's a common animal.
At best, the familiar gets level + 5. And that is only at really high levels of play.
10th is "really high play"? start with an 18 casting stat, +1 5th, +1 10th. Wouldn't the max be level+7 [18 start, +4] increases at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th [22 for +6] and Apex [24 for +7]?
Explicitly forbidding familiars from even being available to do anything during exploration mode is just overkill. Completely unnecessary for preventing overshadowing other characters, and completely crippling for characters that want or need to have a familiar that feels like they are contributing to the party in any meaningful way.
It's a free doubling of exploration activities: Scout requires no roll, they are a free roll on Search, Free roll to track or cover tracks, free Gather Info or Sense Direction on Trained difficulty tasks, ect. While it's not at the same level as a maxed out PC, it often doesn't have to be to be useful even if it's only as insurance vs the PC rolling a 1 and they can pick ANY skill to be 'trained' in and it uses the casters casting stat so it can often be higher than the casters skill in it [especially with an off stat and/or untrained].
It's quite a lot for a 1st level feat [not even a class feat is needed, as ancestries can get one for a 1st level ancestry feat]. That and the way exploration mode is structured, free activities in it seems unfair as you have to take higher level feats to get those. For instance, Ongoing Investigation is a 4th level feat to get an extra Investigate exploration activity: find familiar can get you an extra in almost all of them and possibly with a much higher roll than you could do. It'd be one thing if exploration was more freeform, but as structured as it is, extra actions are pretty valuable.
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None of those are particularly stellar either.
But they're all better than Eschew Materials. No need to be obtuse — you do recognize throwing out (quite possibly) the weakest class feat in the game as a comparison example is kinda misleading, yeah?
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I mean just look at Eschew Materials. That's what getting a familiar is competing with.
Eschew Materials allows you to have a free hand to start the fight with a wand or scroll. Familiars main use is to draw items faster. So they are very comparable. But Eschew Materials doesn't have 5 hit points per level and 7 days of downtime to get it back if it dies.
So, actually, I'm not even sure Familiar is competitive against Eschew Materials.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean just look at Eschew Materials. That's what getting a familiar is competing with.Eschew Materials allows you to have a free hand to start the fight with a wand or scroll. Familiars main use is to draw items faster.
Mm. No. Eschew Materials requires a hand to be completely free just as using a material component requires a hand completely free (you draw the material as part of the Cast A Spell activity requiring it, I believe, or would if material components were actual defined things). So, the only benefit the feat itself gives you is exactly what's in the name, not needing a material component pouch — if you could start with a wand or scroll, that's irrespective of these feats.
Mm. No. Eschew Materials requires a hand to be completely free just as using a material component requires a hand completely free (you draw the material as part of the Cast A Spell activity requiring it, I believe, or would if material components were actual defined things). So, the only benefit the feat itself gives you is exactly what's in the name, not needing a material component pouch — if you could start with a wand or scroll, that's irrespective of these feats.I mean just look at Eschew Materials. That's what getting a familiar is competing with.Eschew Materials allows you to have a free hand to start the fight with a wand or scroll. Familiars main use is to draw items faster.
Yeah, you're right, I've forgotten about the second part.
Ok, Eschew Materials is still worse than Familiars, so it looks like I'm wrong, Familiars are good actually :D| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've only played Strength of Thousands for two sessions so far, but my witch's familiar and Discern Secrets have gotten a lot more use than my spell slots so far. Their scouting potential is really nice if you don't get bogged down in the silly exploration mode/minion quandary. And the witch ability to bring it back if it dies every morning actually lets me be super bold with it. I've realized I can have the thing scout out areas ahead while I sleep.
I'm actually finding it to a really solid advantage on the otherwise underpowered witch chassis, and I'm excited to see how far I can take it. I also tied it into my background and it is giving me some very interesting insight into the plot. Having a praying mantis I can talk to feels like it is going to be super relevant to solving some mysteries.
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But as you said this you depend in how the GM will interpret the exploration mode/minion quandary.
As greystone said above "I think that there might be a worry for them: they (Paizo) don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info." so it's easy to a GM to interpret that creative exploration usages are too OP to a familiar do and don't allow. Others GM will simply don't care about. Myself put this in middle term, if the familiar as independent and speech/Touch Telepathy what would me them useless for others things unless they have at last 4 abilities. So as I give independent freely to all animal companions and familiars in my games this isn't so big problem.
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But as you said this you depend in how the GM will interpret the exploration mode/minion quandary.
Yup. It basically falls into the same category as Recall Knowledge. A good GM will fill in the gaps and make it highly satisfying. A bad GM will make it useless.
As greystone said above "I think that there might be a worry for them: they (Paizo) don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info."
IMO, the paradigm of a familiar scouting vs a PC scouting are fundamentally different. A PC does it by not being noticeable. A familiar does it by not being notable. PCs can also survive if something attacks them, pick a lock, and so on.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like people scout less these days? I think something about the transition between exploration mode to encounter makes people think they are better served by constantly moving together as a unit. Which I think relies on both bad strategy and a bad reading of the rules quite often, but that's my impression.
IMO, the paradigm of a familiar scouting vs a PC scouting are fundamentally different. A PC does it by not being noticeable. A familiar does it by not being notable. PCs can also survive if something attacks them, pick a lock, and so on.
Yes, this was the point I was going for: a PC has a better chance to survive an attack while a familiar is less likely to get attacked, a PC can pick a lock while a familiar might be able to squeeze through bars/fly through a chimney/dig under a door/ect. They can accomplishing the same thing, just getting there in a different way.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like people scout less these days?
I think it has to do with PC's being less able survive an encounter alone if things go south. You can scout, go around a corner and find something 3 levels higher than you that moves twice your speed, crits on a 16, hits on a 6, has reach and a AoO... I'd be paranoid to head out scouting alone too: you're betting a lot on your Sneak not rolling a 1 and/or the baddies not rolling a 20. It's not like the old days where you can build to pre-win most skill rolls you focus on. ;)
And that alone makes giving familiars the ability to scout without needing commands pretty powerful: if you send out a familiar and it doesn't come back you just lose a week of downtime while a PC that doesn't come back is more of a problem.
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But as you said this you depend in how the GM will interpret the exploration mode/minion quandary.Yup. It basically falls into the same category as Recall Knowledge. A good GM will fill in the gaps and make it highly satisfying. A bad GM will make it useless.
As greystone said above "I think that there might be a worry for them: they (Paizo) don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info."IMO, the paradigm of a familiar scouting vs a PC scouting are fundamentally different. A PC does it by not being noticeable. A familiar does it by not being notable. PCs can also survive if something attacks them, pick a lock, and so on.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like people scout less these days? I think something about the transition between exploration mode to encounter makes people think they are better served by constantly moving together as a unit. Which I think relies on both bad strategy and a bad reading of the rules quite often, but that's my impression.
As Graystone says: I've never seen anyone scouting when there was a decent chance for the PC to be discovered and killed. Never split the party.
Scouting has always been a lousy ability, in my opinion. Unless you were scouting through proxies (Familiars, magic), it was far too dangerous to be worth it.