| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So after playing a high level summoner in a game last night I think there is one ability that is seen exclusively as a negative.
Rolling twice in an A.O.E. Now yes I'm not going to say it doesn't feel bad to roll lets say a nat 20 and having to take the lower result(happened to me twice) but It is the balancing point to something really important. Harm reduction and damage mitigation for the party as a whole.
If this was an animal companion both my Summoner and her Companion would have taken damaged needed healing equally, being able to keep 2 creatures up with the same hp pool is super helpful for spell slots.
In another encounter my summoner and her eidolon(who had been enlarged to huge size) were able to block a passage way, the swarms attacking us damaged us for one instance of damage and protected the rest of the party from the swarms. I imagine with other aoes this could help as well.
Now if you don't like the shared HP mechanic then this point might be moot. But I think comparing it to a druid and their animal companion actually shows how the rolling twice issue is mostly just a perceived one. Because any one with a companion would have that issue, you actually get to ignore a whole potential iteration of damage. I'm not saying that it doesn't feel bad sometimes, just that I think people focus on the negative side and not the whole picture it is a part of or the comparison to other companion dynamics.
Yup. Sounds about right to me. People compare it to Misfortune effects that make a single character reroll a saving throw. But then forget that it only does damage to one creature instead of two.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
But you're not really keeping "two creatures up with the same health pool". The Summoner and Eidolon are effectively just one entity anyways.
Yeah, you're only taking damage once, but so is a Magus or Fighter.
Yes. It is somewhere in between the Magus or Fighter that only rolls the save once and only takes damage once, and the Druid with Animal Companion that rolls the save twice and takes the damage twice - once to two different creatures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, that is correct, instead of taking say, half damage, and full damage, when you save, and fail in an AoE you take only full damage. Instead of taking full damage and double damage, you take double damage, if you happen to take double damage and no damage, it works out the same.
Not saying it isn't frustrating to get that great roll with a bad one following it up, but in the end I don't think it is ever more damage than taking to individual attacks. In reality it is a 'sort of weakness' that isn't entirely without beneficial side effects. You've got enough HP to be a martial, but you have both the benefit, and the drawback of having two potential places where you can lose or gain HP.
But you're not really keeping "two creatures up with the same health pool". The Summoner and Eidolon are effectively just one entity anyways.
Yeah, you're only taking damage once, but so is a Magus or Fighter.
You have extra action economy via act together, and extra command of space as a summoner that you wouldn't have as a magus or fighter. That was the other part of my statement. I was able to prevent those swarms from attacking my allies...who would each take an iteration of damage for every action that the swarm spent to do its attack. You are effectively keeping two creatures up with one hp pool in terms of those dynamics.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think only actual experience is going to show how this feature plays out.
I also expect there to be huge table variation depending on campaign style. If there are lots of AoE spells being cast it's going to get bad quickly. If your Eidolon can hold a doorway while the summoner is 30 feet back and being healed the shared hit point pool is an advantage.
But you're not really keeping "two creatures up with the same health pool". The Summoner and Eidolon are effectively just one entity anyways.
Yeah, you're only taking damage once, but so is a Magus or Fighter.
The comparison that makes people upset isn't vs. the Fighter though, it's the PF1 Summoner where the eidolon did have its own health pool. In that comparison the PF2 summoner really is just taking less damage every time and can be more efficiently healed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So after playing a high level summoner in a game last night I think there is one ability that is seen exclusively as a negative.Well, It's a fact that specific mechanic is negative.
I mean, they didn't add it to give advantagese... it's only there as a flaw.By lvl 10 you may roll with advantage instead, with protective bond.
I am going to try that soon, but on a white room scenario ( especially with halfling luck + beckoning cat amulet once per hour ) is literally wonderful.
Except not really, if a druid and there animal companion are in that same swarm, they both need to roll and they both will take damage( unless one or both crit.)
It does matter, if you take into account damage coming into the party as a whole which will dictate how resources are used in terms of time(if you utilize treat wounds), slots(if you are a casters and coin(if you use potions).
Yes the rolling twice and taken the lower result is a negative but it is only one part of the mechanic. It is a balancing factor connected to the shared hp. In which you are ignoring a whole chunk of damage that could in theory becoming in. But it isn't because you are only affected by the spell once. Someone else explajne dit slightly better above.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except not really, if a druid and there animal companion are in that same swarm, they both need to roll and they both will take damage( unless one or both crit.)So after playing a high level summoner in a game last night I think there is one ability that is seen exclusively as a negative.Well, It's a fact that specific mechanic is negative.
I mean, they didn't add it to give advantagese... it's only there as a flaw.By lvl 10 you may roll with advantage instead, with protective bond.
I am going to try that soon, but on a white room scenario ( especially with halfling luck + beckoning cat amulet once per hour ) is literally wonderful.
Yes. But if the druid rolls a success and the AC rolls a failure, the druid takes half damage and the AC takes full damage each with its own hit point pull.
If the summoner rolls a success and the eidolon rolls a failure, they take the failure amount to a single hit point pool always taking the worst result.
This occurs with the summoner only having 40 extra hit points over the druid at 20th level and less for many other levels. 80 hit points over a 6 point caster. And no hit point advantage over a ranger.
If you roll a success cut a 50 point damage attack to 25. For a summoner versus a druid, the extra hit points that you have over the druid are gone. For the ranger you lost way more.
So after you view this, then you have to ask what are you getting for this? Are you doing a lot more damage than the druid and AC combined? Are you doing a lot more damage than the ranger and AC combined? Are you doing more damage than these classes without an AC since you can get an AC too?
We shall see if it is worth it having to take the worse roll for AoE attacks. Usually when you get a major disadvantageous ability, you should get some power for doing so.
Animal companion gets much less hp then a normal character, often less ac, less saves all totaling to a thing that can die quickly in high level play.
The thing people don't bother to think about is that summoners roll twice, the highest gets bumped to crit success and they take the remainder, what ever that might be. It's a positive effect.
Summoner's have better defense overall and didn't spend half or more of their class feats to get a companion, a companion who's got one or two tricks compared to the full array of things another character can do, there's really no comparing them. Also there's multiple ways to have your Eidolon go down in combat while you stay up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except not really, if a druid and there animal companion are in that same swarm, they both need to roll and they both will take damage( unless one or both crit.)So after playing a high level summoner in a game last night I think there is one ability that is seen exclusively as a negative.Well, It's a fact that specific mechanic is negative.
I mean, they didn't add it to give advantagese... it's only there as a flaw.By lvl 10 you may roll with advantage instead, with protective bond.
I am going to try that soon, but on a white room scenario ( especially with halfling luck + beckoning cat amulet once per hour ) is literally wonderful.
This means nothing.
On the one hand you have the summoner class ( with its own mechanics ), on the other hand you have any other class with an animal companion.
Mechanics are different.
That's it.i just wanted to point out that it's not something meant not to give a disadvantage, but the opposite.
The entire reason the ability is there is because it's a negative. They see the ability to "share HP" as good, and their solution is to give a penalty.
******************
Also for people mentioning how Animals Companions would be taking damage, so "summoners get a benefit". But you are all forgetting that an animal companion gets full HP like all other characters.
A character with an animal companion gets twice as much hit point before even considering feats or items. Do they have to get closer to heal? Yeah. But they also wont go down if the animal companion goes down.
It's less this and more the summoner doesn't get a lot of extra hit points and damage for having this disadvantage. If the summoner received something for this penalty, then it might be worth it. It doesn't appear to gain anything substantial for this.
There are other things about this situation that are bad like sharing MAP where as a druid and other users of ACs don't share MAP.
Who cares if the AC does 30% of what an eidolon does if the ranger or druid do 120% by themselves of what the summoner does. 1d8 or 1d6 attacks are very weak for a martial with none of the supplemental abilities that martials usually have to boost their damage.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Animal companion gets much less hp then a normal character, often less ac, less saves all totaling to a thing that can die quickly in high level play.
The thing people don't bother to think about is that summoners roll twice, the highest gets bumped to crit success and they take the remainder, what ever that might be. It's a positive effect.
Summoner's have better defense overall and didn't spend half or more of their class feats to get a companion, a companion who's got one or two tricks compared to the full array of things another character can do, there's really no comparing them. Also there's multiple ways to have your Eidolon go down in combat while you stay up.
What do you mean? If the summoner rolls a critical success and the eidiolon rolls a critical failure, you take the critical failure damage. The critical success does nothing. You take the worse other than some lvl 10 feat I'm hearing about.
What are these ways that allow you to stay up? Feats? Because they are not an inherent part of the class I can see?
AC can be up to 82hp lower, that's for a dex build, otherwise armor class can be up to 9 points behind with str build. Eidolon's easily get martial level AC, some need a dex boost to reach it.
There's not really any options for dex eidolon.
Summoner's get 2 good saves, and 10hp so far more tanky then other casters. If your getting hit more then a martial, either you or your team needs to do better. There's a feat to unsummon your Eidolon and also a second level spell, so you have options.
Just the fact Eidolon's can take all the basic actions you can makes comparisons rather worthless. An AC might be alright to compliment a class at low levels, but the farther you go the more the distance grows.