The main thing I'm trying to understand is Act Together. The way I read it you could do two 2 action activities, but some are saying due to the example text that the single action must be used for something that can be completed using a single action. It's not how I read it myself, but I can see from the example text why it is interpreted in a very narrow way.The Secrets of Magic liveplay on Twitch has restricted Act Together to single actions, so likely how the designers meant it to be used, given Jason Buhlman is running that. Not a definitive answer, but certainly persuasive.
I recall the original idea behind it was a flexible action system that worked differently than a standard minion.
I don't see any text other than the example text indicating the single action cannot be used in combination with another action.
I can see why people are interpreting it in that fashion.
Act Together looks pretty clear to me. Either the Eidolon or Summoner can use a multi-action activity, and the other is restricted to using a single action (which cannot be a part of an activity)
Act Together looks pretty clear to me. Either the Eidolon or Summoner can use a multi-action activity, and the other is restricted to using a single action (which cannot be a part of an activity)
You're adding the last part. Act Together does not say "which cannot be part of an activity." It says you get a single action. It does not say this single action cannot be combined. Actions are specific things in PF2, a specific resource. If you get a single action, you can use it to combine with other actions normally.
The only limitation I've read is that you can't use a tandem action for other tandem actions.
If you get a haste action, it specifies you can only use it to stride or strike because normally an action can be used for any activity. But Act Together does not have this limitation.
I imagine most will run it as a single action activity rather than a single action to do what you want with. Not how I will likely run it as I see nothing indicating the single action cannot be combined that is rules text.
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Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
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Act Together looks pretty clear to me. Either the Eidolon or Summoner can use a multi-action activity, and the other is restricted to using a single action (which cannot be a part of an activity)You're adding the last part. Act Together does not say "which cannot be part of an activity." It says you get a single action. It does not say this single action cannot be combined. Actions are specific things in PF2, a specific resource. If you get a single action, you can use it to combine with other actions normally.
The only limitation I've read is that you can't use a tandem action for other tandem actions.
If you get a haste action, it specifies you can only use it to stride or strike because normally an action can be used for any activity. But Act Together does not have this limitation.
I imagine most will run it as a single action activity rather than a single action to do what you want with. Not how I will likely run it as I see nothing indicating the single action cannot be combined that is rules text.
Mark Seifter commenting on not allowing two two-action activities in a turn, with more posts in the thread. I realize that's from the playtest, but hopefully the clarifies the intention behind the way they worded it.
If you run it your way, you get weird things like fey eidolons allowing you to outdamage the Wizard's Fireball with a pair of Electric Arcs for a little while, or always outdamaging all other casters for nova casting.
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Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
I see now. Thanks for the information. Act Together is an activity and must be done in succession that gives a Single Action as described in the Action rules.
Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
Ah, nice! That's a way better explanation than anything I had.
I feel like a melee tag team has some potential with Tandem Strike. With so few slots and a lagging proficiency, the summoner feels better suited to summons and buffs that don't care about DCs, which means you could potentially dump Charisma and pump the physical stats. The summoner has worse AC than the Eidolon by default but you could get shields or armor to help there. I'm not sure if Tandem Movement is worth it, but Steed form is interesting. Lance and shield it up. The summoner won't be doing a ton of damage but I'd be interested to see how it compares to simply hanging back and spamming cantrips.
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When I did the math earlier Tandem Strike compared unfavorably to Both Boost - Strike - Strike and Electric Arc - Strike.
It wasn't that far behind, but considering you're spending a 6th level feat for it it's a little disappointing.
Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
What happens when the activities nest?
So I use Act Together to do a two action activity for the Summoner, then a one action activity for the Eidolon
Does the Summoner two action activity happen before or after the one action activity for the Eidolon?
Why is it important? Maybe the Summoner is moving to get healed by the Eidolon.
So the Eidolon action depends on the Summoners Action.
Yes I'm thinking of something else....
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Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
What happens when the activities nest?
So I use Act Together to do a two action activity for the Summoner, then a one action activity for the Eidolon
Does the Summoner two action activity happen before or after the one action activity for the Eidolon?
Why is it important? Maybe the Summoner is moving to get healed by the Eidolon.
So the Eidolon action depends on the Summoners Action.
Yes I'm thinking of something else....
"Either you or your eidolon takes an action or activity using the same number of actions as Act Together, and the other takes a single action."
This indicates to me that the players gets to choose if the Summoner or Eidolon acts first every time they use Act Together.
Act Together is an activity, you have to finish it before using another action.
So you would need to do the 1 to 3 actions of either the Eidolon or Summoner and the other doing 1 action before doing anything else.
That is in the action rules in the CRB.
What happens when the activities nest?
So I use Act Together to do a two action activity for the Summoner, then a one action activity for the Eidolon
Does the Summoner two action activity happen before or after the one action activity for the Eidolon?
Why is it important? Maybe the Summoner is moving to get healed by the Eidolon.
So the Eidolon action depends on the Summoners Action.
Yes I'm thinking of something else....
"Either you or your eidolon takes an action or activity using the same number of actions as Act Together, and the other takes a single action."
This indicates to me that the players gets to choose if the Summoner or Eidolon acts first every time they use Act Together.
I am playing two summoners, so far that is how my DMs have been running them.
Curiously enough, the playtest had this line for Act Together: "You choose which order the actions are taken".
How do Monk and Edilon compare defensively?
I've read that Monk has some of the best AC in the game, are Edilon comparable?
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How do Monk and Edilon compare defensively?
I've read that Monk has some of the best AC in the game, are Edilon comparable?
No, Monk have better armor class progression, starting expert and ending legendary and better saving throw progression, being not only faster but also one reach legendary.
Eidolon have the usual armor progression at lvl 13/19 ending on master and a slow saving throw progression and can't pick canny acumen either.
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For a focus point I could get flight in nearly every battle, which if you build an eidolon with reach could be quite powerful.
Just keep in mind that if you're hovering above the enemy, swinging down on them with reach, you have to burn an action each round just to stay airborne.
That can make the action economy for a summoner pretty tight I think.
For a focus point I could get flight in nearly every battle, which if you build an eidolon with reach could be quite powerful.Just keep in mind that if you're hovering above the enemy, swinging down on them with reach, you have to burn an action each round just to stay airborne.
That can make the action economy for a summoner pretty tight I think.
Still let's you do boost > fly > strike > strike, though. Doesn't really seem worse than anyone else's action economy when they fly, and the summoner has some other options to mix that routine up.
Still let's you do boost > fly > strike > strike, though. Doesn't really seem worse than anyone else's action economy when they fly, and the summoner has some other options to mix that routine up.For a focus point I could get flight in nearly every battle, which if you build an eidolon with reach could be quite powerful.Just keep in mind that if you're hovering above the enemy, swinging down on them with reach, you have to burn an action each round just to stay airborne.
That can make the action economy for a summoner pretty tight I think.
If it's a dragon of high enough level, you get three strike out of those two actions (and/or breath weapon). For that matter, you can do spellcass*2/fly/strike, which potentially starts looking pretty solid. You can also turn that strike/strike into a strike/grab or a strike/knockdown if you want
For plant eidolons, I've seen many people suggest the hulking/towering form feats to maximise reach, grab and prone shenanigans.
What are people's thoughts on this? It would mean likely having to have the shrink down feat for times when you are in enclosed places.
Would using Evolution surge focus spell be better so that the eidolons are only large/huge when needed and that feats could be used for other options?
Evolution Surge seems far more efficient all things considered. I think those extra feats would be better going toward improving the plant eidolon’s unarmed attacks.
In particular, Grasping Limbs and Towering Size both being 12th level is rough imo.
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Not as simple as that.
If you are evolution surge for reach often it means that you are using a focus point that competes with Extend Boost, and that results in the need of the refocus feat. And of course also have the 2 action cost of evolution surge.
So in the end will be based on the player will want to control the character, as have more than one way to reach the result but each has it pros and cons.
I personally figure that you want both Hulking/Towering *and* Grasping Limbs. You just need to delay one of them for a couple of levels. Admittedly, I'd probably go for Grasping Limbs first.
You also probably want Constricting Hold (lvl 8 - conflicts with Hulking) and Weighty Impact (lvl 10 - conflicts with whichever one of those lost, and pushes into the 12 zone). Resilient Shell (lvl 14) is also pretty shiny. Basically, you do need to pick and choose to a degree as you go, and it's going to take a bit at the end to catch up, but having the extra reach just *there*, rather than being the short-lived artifact of a focus spell has some real value.
It's also true that this is going to mean that you need to take Shrink Down... but you get a semi-hidden bonus out of it once you do. Hulking increases size to large and increases reach to 10. Towering increases size to huge, and increases reach to 15. Shrink Down reduces size to small... and does nothing to reach. By the rules, the combo lets your eidolon walk around being small with a 15-foot reach (before plant bonuses). You can't get that from evolution surge