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They received some much needed buffs, even though they're fairly small (Medium Armor proficiency was pretty great for Mutagenists). Some of the perceived core issues weren't addressed, so presumably the class is where it is supposed to be design and balance-wise.
How do I feel personally about them? I will never, ever play an Alchemist and I will give an extensive warning to any new players wanting to play one.
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They received some much needed buffs, even though they're fairly small (Medium Armor proficiency was pretty great for Mutagenists). Some of the perceived core issues weren't addressed, so presumably the class is where it is supposed to be design and balance-wise.
How do I feel personally about them? I will never, ever play an Alchemist and I will give an extensive warning to any new players wanting to play one.
Seconded. If you want to play with alchemy do it with a multiclass dedication.
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Well, if you were already liking Alchemist at the beginning of PF2, it has only gotten better since then.
* Some fixes in the errata.
* A new Toxicologist research field.
* New items available to create for free.
Certainly nothing has gotten worse.
But people who didn't like the Alchemist to begin with still don't like the Alchemist now. Go figure.
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It sure hurt to play at time.
So some buffs and some neat changes. Nifty.
Shame it doesn't sound like they increased their proficieny with their weapons.. I remember that being really rough. I was hopin they got improvement for simple. Or at least with bombs themselves.
I used to play a bomber who threw darts to aid another in combat. But that was pretty rough with the DCs for that. It was a lot of fun when it did work out though.
My fav alchemist was still one that pulled from the Chronicler archetype thingy to have some fun with identifying tricks and persistent damage/debuffs. They were a monster identification scholar. In over their head but doing their best.
I assume there is still no universally accessable way to improve weapono profiencies?
There is no way whatsoever to improve weapon proficiency. But you can broaden your proficiency quite easily now with some archetypes that grant the trained benefits and the increase when your normal proficiency would increase.
Lots of people I've seen began to suggest picking up an Investigator, focusing on the Alchemical Methodology and then picking up an Alchemist Dedication as soon as possible. You get the alchemical items to play with, amazing chassis AND you can even use your INT to hit with Devise Stratagem. Of course, this only will fill the gap for those wanting to play a bomber. Mutagenists are tankier, but they're still constrained by their proficiency, Alchemist HP and lack of combat feats, which is what makes a Martial character feel good while playing in PF2e.
I'd love to snag quick draw, throwing knives (neat new weapon). So I can rock hands free w/ a buckler, but can still draw and throw pretty easiyl.
Which looks quite difficult.
bombs for debuffs, knives with poisons. With all the other tools the main class officers.
I'm playing this character right now.
It's my first PF2 character, so I don't really know how it'll go. I'm not planning on being the main damage dealer in the party. I'm focusing on buffs/debuffs, so my expectations probably differ from a lot of people who try the class. I'll keep you posted though .
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I honestly do not consider Alchemists buffers, simply because they do not do it in combat effectively, this also includes giving out items before hand (which is the "optimal playstyle" according to most alchemist stalwart defenders).
Debuffers? Sure. Their ability to give flat-footed is decent and the other penalties are nifty, but you still have to hit and if the GM is using the rules correctly, more often than not the Alchemist will be dealing with Lesser Cover (thankfully offset by the Goggles), but they will rarely benefit from Flat-Footed themselves (since general flat-footed his harder to come by than just flanking/feinting), this is just on top of their already reduced proficiency and to-hit ability score.
They're decent outside of combat because they can give extra +X to skills that their teammates aren't already investing in (Item bonuses do not stack) and their buffs sometimes can be used without significant action economy cost... But every class looks good in advantageous situations. Across the 11 levels we played with the Alchemist in our party, only a handful of times we had the time to spend actions on lackluster alchemical items. Diseases? Poisons? Good look guessing when they will appear so you can gain the +X bonus to saving throws and you'll hardly need it mid fight when spending two actions not doing your stuff will net you extra attacks (and possibly extra saving throws to beat).
There's a harsh truth to all RPGs and specially PF2e. Action Economy is everything. Alas, alchemists are inherently lackluster in this department because they don't have enough enhances to use them mid combat. While an alchemist is spending 2~3 actions to give a buff to one ally and it will probably be a +1 on something, a Bard or other spellcasters will be spending 1~2 actions and giving better buffs such as Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage/Heroics/Defense/Etc.
If Alchemists receive a lot of attention quite often, either here or other forums, it's for a very good reason. Despite some people electing it as a hill to die on and feel superior because they "have the system mastery and the alchemist is good because they know how to play", these threads discussing the class, quite often new players criticizing it, are evidence enough that the class is subpar and it doesn't need to be.
It deserves to be more, because it is supposed to satisfy certain themes and concepts that other classes can't. Sadly, it isn't quite good enough compared to all the others.
Poisons are great for Action Economy.
Poison everyone's weapons before combat. Then the first attack everyone makes delivers debuffs and/or continuous damage, which is excellent for the first round of combat.
Bombs are similar, but use your first action/turn. Hit an enemy or two with debuff/continuous damage in the first round, or if an enemy is vulnerable to an energy type hit them with that.
Then between your bombs and poisons you potentially have 2-4 sources of continuous damage and debuffs floating around the battlefield. They won't last forever and they're not going to outpace the Fighter, but it's adding to the action-economy efficiency.
I will say that trying to make a melee focused Mutagenist seems lacklustre, which is a shame because it seems like it was the intention of that research field.
I will say that trying to make a melee focused Mutagenist seems lacklustre, which is a shame because it seems like it was the intention of that research field.
Feral Mutagen gets pretty decent offensively when you take the feat to upgrade it.
None of the other combat mutagens really pull their weight though.
I haven't played much so I don't really know how good anything is, but I've really enjoyed listening to CRUNCH MCDABBLES on youtube while I do chores - it's a great way to internalise some of the basics of the game.
He did an episode on DoT effects I think.
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The problem with poisons is you get stuck in the niche of only being able to poison in order to be good at it.
A lot of things you regularly find while adventuring are immune to poisons, and a lot of what's left tends to have a high fort save. And to date except for 1 inhaled poison they all target fort saves.
I've watched a friend play a poison alchemist up to 10 so far, and he's just becoming increasingly more frustrated by PFS content he can't do anything in because of it.
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I've ponderd looking at dual weapon user archetype
Alchemist feats are good.
Dual Weapon Warrior is fine if you intend to get Dual Weapon Thrower for bombs. It's two feats and you'll have to give up something good so don't waste it throwing shuriken or whatnot.
Don't fall into the trap of making an alchemist (which is a fine class, ignore the posts about how it's not) and then trying to make it less alchemisty.
As long as you're realistic about the capabilities (alchemists aren't overpowered by any stretch of the imagination), you'll have fun.
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Alchemist had many improvements with APG and some Uncommon options in various APs and sourcebooks.
Drakescale Mutagen is commonly considered a solid buff.
Valey, Independent and Master Form Familiar abilities give you ways to improve your action economy.
Beastmaster gives easy access to Animal Companions (bird + bombs maximizes debuff, Mount helps for action economy).
There are tons of new bombs, Ghost Charge against Undead, Alignment Ampoule for Fiends, Necrotic Bombs for debuff.
So, clearly, the Alchemist has been greatly improved. In my opinion, it is now playable by experienced players but not by beginners.
Also, Alchemist has to be played as an opportunist. Bombs to exploit weaknesses, poison because sometimes it works and costs no actions, mutagens and elixirs for specific cases. In my opinion, specialized Alchemists are just weak. If you expect to be competitive with bombs only, switch to an archer (Ranger or Fighter) you'll have way more fun.
Master Form Familiar abilities give you ways to improve your action economy.
Big fan of Valet, etc, but how does Master Form improve Alchemists specifically?
(Whether they are really weak or not, Alchemists' definitely require a lot of knowing how to put together the tech to make them smoother to play with is a totally accurate complaint).
Big fan of Valet, etc, but how does Master Form improve Alchemists specifically?
There are limitations on Familiars. Some GM will allow Familiars to use Elixirs, others will consider that they can't or can only hold one Elixir at a time. There is no strict RAW about items used by companions and Familiar carrying capacity.
With Master Form, your Familiar becomes a Humanoid. At that stage, most GM will consider that it is able to carry and use Elixirs like any Humanoid. So you can give an Elixir in one action thanks to it. One-action Elixirs of Life are very competitive in terms of healing.
Bombs to exploit weaknesses, poison because sometimes it works and costs no actions, mutagens and elixirs for specific cases. In my opinion, specialized Alchemists are just weak. If you expect to be competitive with bombs only, switch to an archer (Ranger or Fighter) you'll have way more fun.
Yeah, I fully agree with this. Specializing in only bombs, poisons or elixirs is missing more than half the class. The main strength of the class is versatility, so if you want to do well you need to diversify.
With any class if you play against the strengths of the class you're going to yield poor results and be disappointed.
The problem with poisons is you get stuck in the niche of only being able to poison in order to be good at it.
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I've watched a friend play a poison alchemist up to 10 so far, and he's just becoming increasingly more frustrated by PFS content he can't do anything in because of it.
Like this.
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Yeah, I fully agree with this. Specializing in only bombs, poisons or elixirs is missing more than half the class. The main strength of the class is versatility, so if you want to do well you need to diversify.
I have a level 5 Alchemist in PFS and played and GMed PFS2 quite a lot. I've never seen any Alchemist (besides mine) handing out poison, despite the fact that I always tell the Alchemist player when I'm able to use it.
Over my carreer, I've poisoned nearly nothing until I had a Dragon Turtle rolling a nat 1 on its Fortitude check. A tough fight made easier by the debuff.
I've been able to exploit weaknesses a few times (hello troll), becoming suddenly a massive damage dealer.
I also had my familiar (bird) tanking some crazy monsters thanks to them being Blinded.
My overall feeling about the Alchemist is that it's an extremely random character. If you expect consistency and using the same tactics every fight, you'll be highly disappointed. But it's a very adaptable character with some heroic moments. I like to play it way more than my Barbarian who is dealing damage consistently by using over and over the same sequence of actions with extremely few variations.
Well, even if they can't force you to drink a potion during combat ( I wouldn't allow this to characters too )
Then you are not following RAW: "A potion is a magical liquid activated when you drink it, which uses it up. Potions have the potion trait. You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed a potion only to a creature that is within reach and willing or otherwise so helpless that it can’t resist."
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It's a matter of "when" rather than possibility.
I won't probably allow a character to interpose between a dragon and a sword and board fighter fighting, making the fighter drink the potion from his hand.
The text just mention willing ( or helpless ) creature, but that's it.
Leaving apart the "activation part" which I am not quite sure a familiar ( as well as an animal companion ) could do on its own.
When is "in combat", because you only specify actions during combat. So, you are clearly not following RAW by forbidding it.
Feeding Elixirs is a core mechanic of the Alchemist. Forbidding it is just making their life harder (and you don't need to).
I'm gonna play a gnoll alchemist in Strength of Thousands. I'm excited for it, but there's definitely some frustrations. For example, I want to go strength based melee, but the mbomber field still seems like the better pick on paper because you generally only need one at a time until level 13. Level 1 is looking rough right now with the limited reagents, which is one of my bigger pet peeves with the class.
I've got that Gnoll bite to fall back on and keep a hand free and will carry a shield most of the time, and I've got a back up character in mind if I hate it anyway.
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Alchemists are the Nickleback of classes. It's popular to knock them.
I've had one alchemist in my group, but the player showed up once and never came back. Not sure if there's a connection.
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Yeah you are right, I forgot about the alchemist ( In an alchemist thread, lol ). Though it feels even more weird than battle medicine ( imagining the scene ).
Still not sure about familiars/companion activating items though.
I've played quite a lot and, besides Alchemists, I've never seen anyone feeding anything to concious allies. So I don't think it's an important rule, unlike Battle Medicine that I see used all the time.
For companions and Familiars, it's a bit more complicated. There's a big "up to the GM" part to it. That's why I prefer to wait for Master Form before doing it with my Familiar in PFS, as I hardly see a GM considering that a human-form Familiar can't use the same actions than a human-form human.
For example, I want to go strength based melee, but the mbomber field still seems like the better pick on paper because you generally only need one at a time until level 13. Level 1 is looking rough right now with the limited reagents, which is one of my bigger pet peeves with the class.
Honestly, Research Fields are mild specialization. You can play any build with any Field.
The melee Alchemist is strong past level 11, once you get d12 dice and Flurry of Blows.
A Flurry of Blows from this Alchemist deals the same average damage than a Greatsword Fighter/Barbarian first attack. So, as usual with the Alchemist, you can't only rely on that, but it's very nice to have. If you add a Valet Alchemist and Elixirs of Life for healing (to compensate the crazy low AC) you have a strong frontline damage dealer + healer.
But I'd play this build only if I know I'll get to high levels and preferably if there's a Champion in the party.
Yeah you are right, I forgot about the alchemist ( In an alchemist thread, lol ). Though it feels even more weird than battle medicine ( imagining the scene ).
Heh, that made me laugh.
You can possibly get around some of the weirdness by reflavouring some of the elixirs.
I'm flavouring Mutagens as drugs =P
I won't go into them in detail but the Bestial Mutagen is a syringe full of steroids. It's totally believable for me to "feed" an elixir to my friend if I'm stabbing them with it.
This is very non-rules based, but the actions fit within the rules, and it helps me visualise the action.
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I think in the long run alchemists will become more and more versatile, but won't gain much raw power. Whether they're really satisfying to play will depend on whether you're in a campaign where that versatility pays off.
For example, if you regularly run into monsters with regeneration that can be disabled by a specific (and not always the same) energy type, then the alchemist can be really handy to have around. Or if monsters often have weakness to this or that.
But if you're mostly just going through some urban adventure fighting humans and goblins with no specific weakness or resistances to cope with then the lack of raw power is going to be more irritating.
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Also, Alchemist has to be played as an opportunist.
This is a really important point. I see a lot of people go into the Alchemist thinking "I'm a bomber so I throw bombs" or "I'm a mutagenist so I drink mutagens" or "I'm a poisoner so I poison" and that mindset leads to a lot of frustration in the long run. The game just doesn't do a good job supporting those characters right now.
The alchemist is best when you're dabbling in a lot of different things, supporting teammates, exploiting weaknesses, utilizing oddball utility.
It has a niche, definitely. I'll be interested to check out any class archetypes they may make for it in the future.
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What do you think?
In my opinion, poison is not made to be used by the Alchemist. The main strength of poison is its low cost: half or a third of a reagent and nothing else.
When you attack yourself, this is very different, as your attacks will now cost you actions. So you have to compare the efficiency of your poisoned attacks to a simple bomb throw which costs the same number of reagents, actions and roughly feats. And poison is not impressive compared to a bomb (even if it's roughly equal once you get to good poisons like the Wyvern one).
If you want to maximize poison efficiency, you have to think party, not solo. The highest efficiency is achieved through what I call snowballing. If you have, say, a Fighter and a Ranger in your party, you can poison both of their weapons. As they are martials, they will hit, and if your party is coordinated, they will hit the same enemy with all their poisoned weapons in a short period of time.
If they poison the enemy twice in a raw, the enemy will reach stage 2. So, first, the second attack will deal more damage. Second, the nice debuffs appear at stage 2. But more importantly, when the monster will save to get rid of the poison, a success will not be enough. A success will put it back to stage 1 for a new bunch of damage. The second poison application will deal stage 1 + stage 2 damage instead of only stage 1 damage. But to reach that, you need to make all your attacks quickly, and that's impossible all by yourself.
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I've been playing two Alchemists in PFS. My first is a Bomber that has reached 8th Level; my second is a Mutagenist that is now at 3rd Level. Both have been really, really fun to play. I'll focus mainly on the Bomber, as I've played him more.
What I like most about the Bomber, I find, is that there's pretty much never a situation where I feel I can't contribute. Pathfinder Society is great for buying formulae, and so every level I tend to buy a whole bunch of them. I'll admit, I don't buy poison formulae, but that's an odd personal quirk. Plus, a Bomber isn't nearly as effective with Poisons as a Toxicologist. Toxicologists get the very nice "all Infused Poisons use Class DC if better" ability. Really, really helps with poisoning weapons, as it applies to Advanced Alchemy Poisons.
I enjoy using Bombs in combat. My guy has the typical Bomber feats: Far Lobber, Quick Bomber, Calculated Splash & Sticky Bombs. I also took Directional Bombs... eventually. I took Smoke Bomb first (as my Level 6 feat) but retrained it. Smoke is tricky... if your party isn't prepared for it it can mess the party up more than the enemy. I particulary like using the *right* Bomb in Combat. It's so easy to have a variety, now that my guy is 8th Level. There are a few I haven't used, to be honest... haven't tried out Dread Ampoules or Thunderstones as yet. But if you have a general idea what the enemy is going to be, stocking up on the right Bomb can be a blast (pun intended.)
Accuracy hasn't been a problem, and probably won't be. Would I like Master Proficiency in Bombs/Simple Weapons? Sure! Doubt it will happen though. Alchemists operate at a continual deficit from Level 13+, with the worst being 13, 14, 16 & 20 (at -2 with an appropriate Mutagen.) If they got Master Proficiency at L15 (following the pattern of two levels after Martials) they'd be even at Level 16 & 20, but ahead by +1 for 15 & 17-19. I can't see Paizo doing that, even though without inherent damage adders like the non-Fighter martial classes all get I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing.
I don't play the support role as much as I probably could. For one thing, I still use a lot of Reagents on Bombs, although now with Perpetual Infusions and Sticky Bomb I use a bit less. Still, one of my specialties is Bottled Lightning, simply because who doesn't love a no-save flat-footed? My guy has Quick Bomber so I usually lead with the Bottled Lightning and then, if I have an Action to spare, follow up with something else (usually an Acid Flask, my other specialty.) However, 12 Batches of Reagents a day means a lot of flexibility. I have Greater Darkvision Elixer now, so I usually make a Batch of that and give the spare to somebody else. If there's a Spellcaster in the group, or a Monk, Drakeheart Mutagen is a big hit. Most Martials though don't keep a hand free, and that limits the possibilities a fair bit. That will probably change at 11th... an hour-long duration helps a fair bit.
I also just really like the flavour of a lot of Alchemist stuff. Like for example, the Will Save booster that's even better at Fear Saves... is a beer (Bravo's Brew). That's hilarious! Antidote & Antiplague are ridiculously good in their niches. A L1 Antidote is relevant up until around Level 12, which is when most folks will have a Greater Resilient Rune. Cat's Eye Elixer is really great to have when needed (I encourage everyone to invest in a couple) and Silversheen is another evergreen item. Searching a dungeon? Give yourself a boost for an hour or two with Eagle-Eye Elixer. If you're a Healer, Skin-Stitch Salve turns all your Treat Wounds successes into Critical Successes. Sovereign Glue actually exists in this game... and that's fun in and of itself, imho.
There is a Mutagen to help with any Skill in the game, which has come in incredibly handy in PFS play. Plus, some things work out well that you just don't think about. Silvertongue Mutagen can help out 3 out of the 4 Swashbuckler specialties, for example, and the Drawbacks, while real, don't really hamper you in Combat (unless you do a lot of Recall Knowledge.) I haven't had anyone wanting Juggernaut yet, although that may change (again) at 11th. Drakeheart I've already talked about. Quicksilver I rely on for my Bomber. The damage hasn't really come into play, and I guess I've been lucky... Fortitude going from Expert to Trained hasn't hurt much. The speed boost and bonuses have all really helped though. At 11th, Cognitive Mutagen gets bizarre, if you have some Reagents to spare for Quick Alchemy. Become Trained in any Int based Skill you want for an hour. Which means any Lore, not matter how obscure, can be yours for an hour at a time. I'm looking forward to that.
Persistent damage is awesome. It's not a *lot* of damage, each time it invokes, but it can add up. And I just find it fun to see if the GM is able to throw it off... or if they can't, and the timer keeps ticking. I've seen more GMs be stunningly unlucky with the flat check... and the odd frustrating ones that hit it every single time. Still, it's a lot of fun, and it's going to eventually get even better. By 14th Level my guy could conceivably be inflicting four different types of persistent damage with Perpetual Infusions alone. (I'm planning on taking Perpetual Breadth at 14th if I ever get that far.)
Anyways, I'm rambling.