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Something SuperBidi was talking about in an earlier Alchemist discussion kinda stuck with me and got me wondering: Would my Bomber be better off grabbing Electric Arc in some way and use that instead of Perpetual Infusion Bombs?I haven't checked your numbers precisely but they seem in line with what I'm getting from Citricking's tool. I just made my comparison by increasing proficiency at level 12 and 18 for the MCed Electric Arc and Perpetual Bombs were looking worse all along the way.
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Thing is, that's a pretty serious investment. That's four Class Feats. Now, if your concept is you want to play an Alchemist that casts Spells, hey, more power to ya and enjoy! But for folks wanting to play an Alchemist instead of a hybrid, it doesn't really work that well.
A few things to note:
- Electric Arc is available at level 2. As we are speaking of an at will attack option, I think it is major as you will need it way more at low levels
No argument there; you may have noticed how I mentioned EA wins by default from 2-6.
- Your comparison between Double Brew + Perpetual Sticky + Perpetual and Electric Arc is a comparison between a 3-action activity and a 2-action one. If you now compare it to Electric Arc + Bomb, Electric Arc will once again beat Perpetual Bombs. And paying a third of a reagent per round at level 9+ is not an issue.
Discussion of at-will options always focuses on when Resource dependent options are no longer available. For Spellcasters, it's when they run out of slots. For Alchemists, it's when they run out of all other Bombs.
Under those circumstances, Perpetual Infusion Bombs have an option to do a 2nd Attack starting at L9. Electric Arc has no such option.
Now, your point of extending your supply of regular Bombs is well-taken, but not really relevant here.
- And the most important thing is that being comparable to a Trained Proficiency Electric Arc proves that Perpetual Bombs are not competitive against any real combat routine. That's why I say that taking Sticky Bombs is a waste of a feat.
Now, let it never be said that I only argue a rigged debate! :-D
I re-ran my numbers against both a four-feat MC Wizard and a full Wizard, comparing Electric Arc against Perpetual Infusion Acid Flasks and Alchemist Fires. Same rules as before, basically.
Against 1 Bomb per round (Sticky, Calculated Splash, Expanded Splash) Electric Arc is ahead. But not by much. I'll go with the full Wizard, as that's the biggest contrast.
Over a three round period, the Wizard is ahead at Levels 7-10, and 13-20. (Again, there is no argument about Levels 1-6.) However, there is every possibility that the Bombs will pull ahead.
Level 7 is the worst. Over 8 hp/round in the difference, because Sticky Bomb is not in play yet. It would take 3 extra splash targets, per round, to make up the difference.
Levels 9, 19 & 20 you'd need two extra splash targets. It gets easier as you go along... L9 is tough as it's a 5' emanation from the primary target, but after L13 it's a 15' one.
Levels 8. 10. and 13-18. you'd just need 1 extra target. And a number of those levels are really close anyways... 2HP per round output or less. So you'd only need to hit that extra target *once* from L10 on. (Any Perpetual Infusion Bomb under these conditions does 6HP splash damage from L10 up.)
Should you go with spending your 3rd Action on Damage, it's no contest. The Bombs blow away the Cantrip every level except 20th, when it's really close (only 1hp per round over the Electric Arc.)
Perpetual Bombs are just there for the extreme cases where you have no bomb left and nothing else to do. Using it regularly is a very bad thing and instead of paying a level 8 feat to make them hardly better you should spend this feat to grab something that will allow you to be competitive.
Perpetual Bombs are beyond salvation. Even if you take all the available feats to improve them they will not be worth using on a regular basis.
You're aware that a Perpetual Infusions Sticky Bomb outperforms the at-level version regularly, right? Especially from Level 10 on? If you want to use Bombs (and hey, I'm playing a Bomber, so yeah, I want to use Bombs) it's an appealing option.
Perpetual Bombs are just a few bucks saved on a runed crossbow for when you run out of alchemical items
This is from another post, but I couldn't resist commenting on it. This is a joke, right? Do you honestly believe that, when used by an Alchemist, a Runed Crossbow comes even close to what they can do with Perpetual Bombs?
I ran the numbers. Built a +3 Greater Striking Greater Flame Shock Frost Crossbow. Had it so that there were 2 additional targets within 10' of the primary for the Shock Critical. Ran it over three rounds starting with a loaded crossbow and doing nothing but attack, reload, attack. Ran it using Quicksilver Mutagen every time, just like Bombs.
Even with a five Strike to three advantage the crossbow doesn't compete except at 7th level. And at Level 7 the difference is less than 1 HP/round. The only reason the numbers stay anywhere near close is because I was feeling lazy.
I didn't bother with going full Attack with the Bombs at L9. I didn't add in Splash Damage at L10 on the two free targets I gave the Shock Critical.
So you *are* joking, right?
I love your bee familiar!
I was thinking of a mud dauber or mason bee for this, burrowing creatures so a Gnome could have them them with an ancestry feat.
Also thought either of the dragon familiars would make a decent bee, with a puff of pollen as the breath weapon.
So you *are* joking, right?
We have differences in our methods of calculation giving differences in the results.
I calculate using Citricking's tool (which is highly correct, I use it for a long time), weapons are fully runed with elemental gems as soon as possible, High AC (as it's the most common), no Flat-Footed (ranged attacks rarely get it), same level enemy, one round of Persistent damage (as an on level enemy will rarely survive more than one round).Here's the result.
Deep blue: Normal Alchemist's Fire with all damage feats
Red: Perpetual Sticky Alchemist's Fire with all damage feats
Light blue: Single target Electric Arc from a Wizard
Purple: -5 Perpetual Alchemist's Fire (this famous second attack)
Green: Fully runed crossbow
Orange: Fighter Shortbow single attack
So, we can see that Perpetual, normal bombs and single target Electric Arc are dealing the same damage. The crossbow is weaker but roughly competitive. The second Perpetual bomb is a total waste of actions with 5 average damage at level 20. All bombs lose significantly against the fighter starting at level 13, becoming the equivalent of a second attack.
Same result against an opponent 2 levels above the PC and 2 rounds of Persistent damage (as higher level enemies survive longer). Same colors.
Against a higher level opponent, we see that bombs and Electric Arc are better than weapons thanks to the damage on miss they provide and the increased duration of persistent damage. They are now on par with the Fighter attack. The crossbow attack is way weaker. The second bomb does 2 average damage at level 20 and is as usual a waste of an action.
Also, it's important to point a few things:
Electric Arc targets 2 enemies but costs 2 actions. It's important to note that even if it seems pretty damn good against a level +2 enemy, you will rarely fight more than one of them (unless your GM likes Extreme encounters). Also, it costs 2 actions.
Perpetual Bombs ask for an extra action to be brewed. As the second bomb is a complete waste of an action, we can roughly consider that they cost 2 actions. So, they only "seem" competitive. When action efficiency is taken into account, they are at the bottom of the chart.
Crossbow also asks for 2 actions, so you're right that it was a joke, but looking at the results, I realize it was not that much of a joke. It is quite competitive against Perpetual Bombs.
At level 8, a Bomber can brew 36 bombs. At level 20, 79 bombs. Sure, it means that these resources are limited. But if you really want to use bombs over and over again, at some point you should be able to avoid weak Perpetual Bombs by brewing a little bit more normal bombs. As a side note, I highly discourage to use bombs over and over again after level 13. At that stage, bombs start to drop against weapons, and I encourage you to use bombs only when the situation favors them (weakness or splash of multiple enemies).
Now, what happens if you face a big group of enemies you can splash or if you face weaknesses? Sure, bombs are better, and it's clearly a moment where you want to use them. But Perpetual Bombs are bad at exploiting weaknesses as you can only brew 2 types. And normal bombs can also splash, so you still don't need Perpetual bombs.
So, I stick to my point (pun intended): Sticky Bombs are a waste of a feat and Perpetual Bombs are a joke. They only exist to give you an at will option when you end up with no more real bombs (which you should avoid as much as possible) or when the fight's over and you don't want to waste resources on the last living enemy.
lvl 1 > 10 or 12* bombs
lvl 2 > 12 or 14* bombs
lvl 3 > 16 or 18* bombs
lvl 4 > 18 or 20* bombs
lvl 5 > Field Descovery, BOOM! from 27 to 30* bombs
Just so you know, the Alchemist got a bit of a buff with their research field. Reagents grant extra items of the specialist school right from level 1, albeit not quite as flexibly as the level 5 Field Discovery.
Your inquiries into the alchemical nature of the universe have led you to focus on a particular field of research. You might have a degree from a scientific institute, correspond with other researchers in your field, or work as a genius loner. Choose a field of research.
Your research field adds a number of formulas to your formula book; these are your signature items. When using a batch of infused reagents to create your signature items using advanced alchemy, you create three items instead of two. Each time you gain a level, you can swap one of your signature items with another formula in your formula book. This new signature item must be on your research field's list of possible signature items.
Per AoN/The errata:
Your research field adds a number of formulas to your formula book; these are your signature items.
So for instance, a bomber starts with two first level bombs in their formula book and those are their signature items.
Yup, so the 2 formulae you add for your research field are more more efficient .
Then when you hit level 2, 3 and 4 you can swap one of your efficient formulae for a new one of the same type .
Then at level 5 the ability becomes redundant since your Field Discovery is the same thing but better .
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A little late to the party, but I play a gnome alchemist (mutagenist) in Extinction Curse and, so far, I have not been disappointed with it in the least bit. To be honest, I've only taken ONE alchemist feat (Alchemical Familiar) and we are already level 9. I've mostly just focused on dedication feats for sorcerer and dragon disciple.
I typically hand out mutagens brewed specifically for individual party members (and their animal companions) that I make at the beginning of the day (pocketing one of the three for myself as I can drink any mutagen and benefit). Then I slip into a trapfinding/disabling role until combat happens. Then its a quick bomb to lay down some battlefield control and a spell to ward the 'tank' on the first turn. Then I start looking for the best place to contribute, whether than means using my sorcerer spells, my bombs, tossing back a mutagen and wading into combat to provide some flanking assistance (and decent damage), or back flipping around to lay some hands (medicine checks or magical gloves for healing) on individual teammates. If things get real bad and I need to go into overdrive, I'll have my monkey familiar start mixing up healing potions and I'll HURL the crazy primate across the map so that he can start healing others while I take care of business.
I never really liked the alchemist in pathfinder 1e but I LOVE the class in 2e. I tend to play incredibly versatile characters and the alchemist makes an incredible chassis to build off of.