I really grew up in DnD playing mostly big dumb fighter type characters, and have almost always been medium-sized.
Then, I decided to jump into Pathfinder head first, tried my hand at GM'ing Kingmaker... having never even played Pathfinder before. Anyways, I figured it was a good time to explore playing a spellcaster given that there are a few big bad guys in the AP that sling spells... so I whipped up a GMPC as a research project.
While I was timidly busting out of my shell, I took a chance on playing a Kobold. I definitely didn't want my GMPC stealing the show, and figured Kobold was an obvious choice for a character that would seldom be in the spotlight. Holy crap, what a wondetful decision that turned out to be. Hbob quickly became my favorite character, to date. Since then, I think I almost default to Halfling when starting to theorycraft a character build. No joke.
Sure, I certainly appreciate the value of your typical Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos/Fate's Favored... how can you not? Heart of Fey Humans with Focused Study is another one. Half-Elves with Ancestral Arms/Weapon Familiarity, or Elves with Crossbow Training... more recently I have learned to appreciate the Industrious Urbanite Overwhelming Magic Elf on the opposite end of the spectrum.
But there is just something about putting together something big with someone small.
I love the inherent accuracy bonus, and couldn't care less about CMB/CMD. Combat Maneuvers are BS anyways. Lol. Some of the alternative racial features in the small races are just pure gold... both in offering flavor and utility.
Maybe somewhere along the way I completely gave up on power gaming, but I don't even bother necessarily building to specific strengths... like I am not focusing on stealthy Goblins when it is way more fun for me to make a Goblin Paladin with Rage. I like Helpful Underfoot Halflings as Disciple of the Pike Cavaliers... building past strength penalties is something that I don't shy away from.
Am I alone in thinking that the small races are a lot of fun? That they easily make up for any perceived lack of power with abundant flavor?
Small races don't lack power in D&D 3.x/PF, it's as simple as that. They may or may not have better flavour, but they're as good for power gaming as their larger cousins.
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I love Dromites!
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Small in name only, you can megacheese as hard with small as you can medium.
I love mites!
So do I!
I have definitely noticed that being Small really hasn't hurt anything I have put together.
That accuracy bonus from size actually makes me a little more willing to take things like Deadly Aim or Power Attack or Rapid Shot... which I usually only take if they are prerequisite to something I actually want... looking at you, Power Attack, just standing in my way to get Chop/Smash From the Air. Normally, I try to avoid anything that subtracts from my accuracy, so being Small actually gives me the confidence to hit harder...?
I know small races aren't really lacking in power in PF1. There are quite a few tools at your disposal to negate the strength penalty common to many small races... many of them no more painful than 5 levels in one of the several classes/archetypes that get Dex-to-DMG. Could always just be a caster... and in PF1, being a spellcaster literally solves everything. So, of course, small races do not suffer in PF1... Wizards don't need strength or size.
Small races are awesome by the numbers. Until you see the impact that a small size has on other parts of the rules. Carry weight. Jumping. Overland Travel. Depths of water vs movement speed. Penalties to intimidation. Etc. Etc.
Sure, some of that is mitigated by magic as you get higher level.
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Yeah, just like PCScipio said, being small gives a bunch of advantage that are pretty neat. The +4 bonus to stealth is also stupidly powerful on stealthy classes.
I think small races are plenty powerful and fun, but there's two things that generally deter me from playing any;
1. Their speed! They be soooo slow! I guess there's option that exist to make some of them faster, like i believe halfling have an alternate race trait, but still. Slower i'll play is a dwarf. They are slow, but at least they won't get slower.
2. Elves. I just can't bring myself to play anything other than elves 90% of the time. I suffer from Elvaddiction Pls halp :(
The lower carry capacity is compensated by your weapons and armor being half weight. You just need to find a way to drag around your other adventuring gear until you can afford a handy haversack.
It's really hard to resist being small when making a kineticist. Your damage isn't tied to size, and the extra accuracy makes the physical blasts even more tempting. You can start with kinetic blade and weapon finesse, so getting precise shot isn't quite as immediate of a need.
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Carry weight can be an issue, but I genarally refuse to dump Strength, even when it's not needed... even if it means spending points to mitigate a racial strength penalty. Strength almost always gets any "spare" points left over, specifically for things like carry weight. Combat-trained bison are relatively cheap, and can carry a million. Lol.
Honestly, the weight system scales pretty well... if you don't find yourself struggling to carry your gear as a medium-sized race, you probably will not have any issues as a small-sized race. If you are one of "those people" who dump stats or do nothing to mitigate penalties, then I have no pity for you.
Speed/jumping... I have a special place in my heart for the Grippli Vexing Mousers... which are neither slow, or bad at jumping. But, it's literally a frog, so one would hope that it might be able to jump. Grippli be but one race, though, and are an exception, rather than the rule. If movement is a concern, then Gathlain have a fly speed that exceeds their ground speed.
Now, bringing up a bunch of specific examples does not change the general problem(s) of movement speed, or carrying capacity. Both are valid concerns. And it has proven to be a fun exercise to find ways to overcome these challenges when theorycrafting parties of all Small characters.
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being small doesn't automatically mean lower str.
check out the Orang-pendak for example. small yet get +2 str and +2 more when they break stuff. that there is a recipe for a very nasty barbarian.
"don't call him monkey..."
Weight Capacity is technically in favor of Small character to some extend. They get 3/4 carrying capacity and their gear just weight half, so they are gaining there. It just gets harder for them to carry all that shiny loot back to the big-folk town so they can pawn it for some more shinies.
Gripplis are nice, i remember my titan-slayer barbarian grippli, i would stealth in marshes and forest then slay all kinds of tall folk with my oversized greataxe! Fun time :)
Galthlains look so fun to play too, i'd like to play one as a Feyspeaker Druid eventually, but they look so cheesy :(
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Not much you can do with Agile Tongue?!?!
The ladies say otherwise. ;)
But, if, say, an Agile Tongue Grippli was to take levels in Sandman Bard, and apply their FCB to the Stealspell Performance... you can have a 110' reach with your tongue. Not especially useful, but hilarious, and as useful as Stealspell will ever be. Lol.
I do love the Grippli. Made a Ranger Vampire so that the FCB swim speed would mitigate some of the penalties of being a Vampire. Not that anyone ever bothers with the running water weakness, anyways, but I like to be thorough in covering my bases.
Halfling Warslingers can be a little difficult, but I have had good luck with Weapon Master Fighter 3 as a starting point for such builds. It's just sad, to me, that Bombs cannot be used with Slipslinger BOMBardment.
My wife's first PFS character was a halfling underfoot adept monk. The archetype increases what size creature you can trip as you go up in level, and even before she could take Greater Trip, she was in the habit of leading with that maneuver to set up potential AoO's for her allies. By the time she hit Seeker-tier, she had boosted her AC enough that she could regularly zip into the center of a mob of enemies, knock one down, hit him again, and then the next round knock down and pummel several more, often without taking damage except for the feedback from her merciful vicious amulet.
take a halfling ashiftah witch.
nab something like the flight hex for an at will immediate action feather fall (which is a hex so you can use ghost walk right after). now you can use standard action to cast spells\slumber what not > immediate + move action to vanish and 5 foot.
now for the fun part. get the halfling alt race ability of
Source Horror Adventures pg. 40
Glassy eyes and porcelain skin make some halflings look more like dolls than living creatures. If they cease moving and pretend to be a doll while they aren’t being observed, they can use the Stealth skill without cover or concealment. A successful Stealth check still allows other creatures to notice the halfling; they just believe the halfling is a doll, similar to the freeze universal monster ability (without being able to take 20). In addition, they take no size penalty on Intimidate checks against larger humanoids. The racial trait replaces keen senses and sure-footed.
get a small dagger and name him 'Chucky' all you need now is to find people to play with you..
(he show up stab and disappear, can pretend to be a doll and take no penalty for intimidating bigger enemies. think about it)
I think the only thing I don’t like is the raw damage martial wise. I know weapon finesse helps hit but i think only certain classes add dex to damage too. I could be mistaken
Could literally not care any less about their reduced base damage.
I will take accuracy over damage, all day long. Damage happens, especially when you never miss.
Nothing lasts more than 3 rounds of the party swinging at it, anyways... one step up in damage dice isn't going to matter that much 99% of the time.
Especially when you never miss.
I guarantee you that you will contribute your necessary overall damage simply by landing every hit. It's all about the static bonuses, not the base damage die.
Could literally not care any less about their reduced base damage.
I will take accuracy over damage, all day long. Damage happens, especially when you never miss.
Nothing lasts more than 3 rounds of the party swinging at it, anyways... one step up in damage dice isn't going to matter that much 99% of the time.
Especially when you never miss.
I guarantee you that you will contribute your necessary overall damage simply by landing every hit. It's all about the static bonuses, not the base damage die.
Oh I didn’t mean base damage that is pretty irrelevant in a group setting. I meant potentially taking negatives to damage (example 1D4-2 because your STR Mod is low)
Now that the whole chain for dex to damage is complete and with the existence Piranha strike, small characters have nothing to worry about damage-wise. Damage dice never really mattered outside of the first few level.
Otherwise some classes don't rely on flat bonus damage too much, a small sized magus must actually be pretty good as they need more accuracy than anything else.
The only thing that ever really stopped me is a preference for martial characters, not liking dex to damage, and starting at low levels where having a "lower" strength can mean you start with a 16 rather than a 20 and that can make it feel less fun when someone else in the party is optimizing for damage. You can easily make up for that later in a ton of ways, so that it becomes at higher levels.
But early on it dissuades me.
And my group rarely ever starts play from anything other than level 1.
Certain campaign setting/types of enemies would make me quite selective of my class/CMD... little things are easier to Grab/Swallow Whole/blow overboard/etc, but it's not a deal breaker.
I often use small races especially for things like kineticist or spell casters, that don't need to rely on size to deal damage. I even designed a SHRINKING bloodrager with a reach weapon, his goal is to become tiny and fight with a polearm, sure his base damage isn't as high as a str build, but his static damage is niothing to laugh at and with a d3 damage die his damage is consistant and he barely ever misses, plus, its funny. His name is Boop.
Boop. Lol. I always liked the little Imp Familiar with the spear in Castlevania:SOTN... it would always say "Mmm, die!" as it stabbed stuff or eventually shot ice blasts and $#!+... it was just funny how everything it said started with Mmm...
Small races just open up options for silly things that otherwise would never come up.
As Hbob, my Kobold character, I spent a lot of time riding on the shoulders of the Dwarf. I just went where he went, and used Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard whenever possible. Aid Another was Hbob's "thing"... and Dazing Channel, just in case/get out of jail free card.
That's funny... Adept 4/Warrior 4 is one of my favorite BAB +6 NPC setups, regardless of race.
For Kobolds, I like to use their racial Fighter archetype mixed with levels of Vexing Dodger UnRogue... I call them my Vexing Swarm Fighters. Kobolds are also a favorite of mine for Arcane Tricksters, although I have yet to throw one at the party.
I also have a few Kobold Dragon Disciples, all of various divine spellcasting backgrounds that I haven't had an opportunity to use. For anyone interested... Kobolds can take Scaled Disciple to qualify for Dragon Disciple with divine spells.
I have a Divine Commander Warpriest, a Pearl Seeker Paladin, and a Wilderness Whisperer Druid... all VMC Sorcerer for the Draconic Bloodline, because reasons. The Druid and Warpriest both have Deinonychus companions that they each fight Shoulder to Shoulder with. Their little dinosaur companions are disguised to look exactly like themselves. Lol. Pearl Seeker Paladin doesn't get a choice, ended up with a Hippocampus... can't win them all.
Lately, I have been really enjoying Grippli. Pretty proud of a Grippli Vampire Dandy Ranger I put together. And I am just about finished with a Grippli Alchemist/Witch gestalt focused on Poison that should be interesting.
Kobold Adept 5/Warrior 2 is a CR 4 foe. Small builds can also be fun for NPCs. Start with a 15 Wis, pump that to 16 with Level 4 bonus, take Spell Focus Evocation, Greater Spell Focus Evocation, Toughness and Improved Initiative, then give it a flying Mauler familiar. Now you have a CR 4 foe who is a single foe boss fight against a CR 1 party who can fly, has decent AC, modest saves and casts multiple 5d4 Burning Hands spells with a DC 16 Ref save. You want the kobold higher up, have them fire one of their 2 2nd level spells as Scorching Ray with a Dex of 14, plus Size bonus (+1 to attack) and BAB +4 targeting the PCs' Touch.
That sounds incredibly painful to fight. How does a first level party even manage that? O.o
That sounds incredibly painful to fight. How does a first level party even manage that? O.o
They don't, or they take incredibly heavy casualties in the attempt. This is why CR is a guideline. You'd need equally optimized PC characters very prepared to take this thing down. The only sound tactic is to take away is ability to use its spells. To that end, you have the archers readying actions to pepper it the moment it started casting.
That sounds incredibly painful to fight. How does a first level party even manage that? O.oThey don't, or they take incredibly heavy casualties in the attempt. This is why CR is a guideline. You'd need equally optimized PC characters very prepared to take this thing down. The only sound tactic is to take away is ability to use its spells. To that end, you have the archers readying actions to pepper it the moment it started casting.
I mean yeah of course, i was mostly surprised by the claim that it was presented as an appropriate challenge for a first level party.
An archer readying an action sounds like good plan. They still need to hit though and the caster need to concentration check, otherwise you're looking at 12.5 average dmg on a failed save or 6.25 on a successful one. Pretty harsh on first lvl character. I guess a wizard could really on magic missile to force the concentration check. Some control spell like command, or ear-piercing scream sound like a good idea, but that thing still has +4 bases fortitude and will save.
I wonder though how comparable it wouls be to other CR4 creature. A grizzly bear also sounds nightmarish to fight at first level baring some scenario where player have extreme circumstancial advantage.
I wonder though how comparable it wouls be to other CR4 creature. A grizzly bear also sounds nightmarish to fight at first level baring some scenario where player have extreme circumstancial advantage.
A level one party would comparatively curb-stomp a CR4 Brown Bear (Grizzly) compared to how difficult a fight that the Adept5/Warrior2 would offer them. The Bear only has an AC of 16 and 42 HP. You have four to five decent hits on that bear in a single round and you drop it. You entangle that bear for even a single round and you've probably already won.
Pretty sure the first Grizzly Bear the Lewis and Clark expedition encountered took something stupid like two dozen musket shots to put down... so yeah, absolute nightmare for a bunch of ~1st level adventurers. Lol.
Kobold Adept 5/Warrior 2 is a CR 4 foe. Small builds can also be fun for NPCs. Start with a 15 Wis, pump that to 16 with Level 4 bonus, take Spell Focus Evocation, Greater Spell Focus Evocation, Toughness and Improved Initiative, then give it a flying Mauler familiar. Now you have a CR 4 foe who is a single foe boss fight against a CR 1 party who can fly, has decent AC, modest saves and casts multiple 5d4 Burning Hands spells with a DC 16 Ref save. You want the kobold higher up, have them fire one of their 2 2nd level spells as Scorching Ray with a Dex of 14, plus Size bonus (+1 to attack) and BAB +4 targeting the PCs' Touch.That sounds incredibly painful to fight. How does a first level party even manage that? O.o
As other have pointed out, this is another failing of the CR system in which in derates NPC classes (such as adept and warrior). I forget how much it tells you to reduce it by (I think by half), but that character has 7 class levels. In theory the CR system is reducing the rating because of a lack of class features.
But this character is tweaked to take advantage of the CR system completely, eking out feats that shouldn't be available.
No offense to Mark, but it's a disingenuous build in my opinion, or rather calling it a CR 4 is disingenuous. We all know the CR system is a guide, and easily fails with this sort of build.
Pretty sure the first Grizzly Bear the Lewis and Clark expedition encountered took something stupid like two dozen musket shots to put down... so yeah, absolute nightmare for a bunch of ~1st level adventurers. Lol.
Meh, they probably had NPC class levels (Experts?), skills and feats in all the wrong places and rolled low on their damage. You'd need fairly optimized characters to deal with a grizzly bear easily at 1st level.
A level one party would comparatively curb-stomp a CR4 Brown Bear (Grizzly) compared to how difficult a fight that the Adept5/Warrior2 would offer them. The Bear only has an AC of 16 and 42 HP. You have four to five decent hits on that bear in a single round and you drop it. You entangle that bear for even a single round and you've probably already won.
Well, the bear is easier to fight with the right tactic, that's for sure, it's still not a cake walk either, make one mistake and you're probably dead. Entangle is a good spell, but it's not something every group has access to.
Four to five decent hit with roughly 50% chance to hit AC 16 at first level is actually pretty though to manage. Sure your martial character can probably manage to land a hit or two, but they likely won't stand more than a round in melee, the bear hits for 1d6+5 on each of its 3 attacks. Oh and goodluck trying to outrun it, it has 40 feet speed and
Run as a feat. Absolute nightmare to fight at first level.
I feel like the best bet is to hope you can shoot the bear down or discourage it enough to leave you alone before it gets to your group and shred your party.
Anyway, all of this was mostly to show that, while i think the Kobold Adept5/Warrior2 is kinda overtuned for its CR, any CR 4 will likely stomp over most first level party.
Yeah, looking at the Adept 4/Warrior 4 outline I have in my notes, even with a 14 Wis and Spell Focus (not Greater) they are rocking a DC 15 Scortching Ray... which immediately puts it at CR 4, if not CR 5...
Looking at the rest of it, getting a +8 high attack (CR 4) requires only a +2 modifier, or a +1 modifier and Weapon Focus or Point Blank Shot or a masterwork weapon... CR 5 is only a +10 high attack, so that is all but guaranteed with any combination of the above, as well.
36 hit points from the 8HD... a +1 Con would be 44 hit points, which is CR 4 territory. A +2 Con would be 52 hit points, which is expected of a CR 5.
8HD, alone, means it could have more feats than a lot of other CR-"appropriate" enemies, too. And with 8HD, this combination ends up with BAB +6 which is, at least, two attacks per round. 8HD on a Humanoid is solid CR 5 level hit dice, pretty much CR 6.
Saves are solid CR 4, and that's without factoring in any gear or feats. Could be brought up to CR 6 level saves almost by accident.
According to everything I have read on building NPC's, an Adept 4/Warrior 4 is a CR 3 enemy, if given NPC gear. Either Adept or Warrior (doesn't matter) is the NPC's key role, and the other counts at half rate towards its CR ranking. And NPC classes already count towards the CR ranking at half rate compared to player classes. Lol.
So, we will say Warrior is key, and we get CR 2 from 4 levels of Warrior. That makes Adept secondary, and we only get +1 CR from all 4 levels of Adept. That is how you end up with an 8HD "CR 3" enemy using NPC classes and the rules as I understand them... but that is pulling from Creating NPC's and Creating Monsters and Monster Advancement and I could be completely wrong.
Mark Hoover's Adept 5/Warrior 2 is only 7HD, but probably more deadly because magic.
According to everything I have read on building NPC's, an Adept 4/Warrior 4 is a CR 3 enemy, if given NPC gear. Either Adept or Warrior (doesn't matter) is the NPC's key role, and the other counts at half rate towards its CR ranking. And NPC classes already count towards the CR ranking at half rate compared to player classes. Lol.
So, we will say Warrior is key, and we get CR 2 from 4 levels of Warrior. That makes Adept secondary, and we only get +1 CR from all 4 levels of Adept. That is how you end up with an 8HD "CR 3" enemy using NPC classes and the rules as I understand them... but that is pulling from Creating NPC's and Creating Monsters and Monster Advancement and I could be completely wrong.
For some reason, I can't find the rule for NPCs with NPC classes CR at the moment, but i know for a fact that it's ECL-2. The ''Secondary'' class that you're citing is for advancing monsters with class levels. If a monster class count as secondary for a typical monster, like let’s say you wanna build a kraken with wizard level, then each class level count as half for CR purposes until you reach the monster actual CR. I believe that a multiclass character just adds up everything together. I could be mistaken, though.
A level one party would comparatively curb-stomp a CR4 Brown Bear (Grizzly) compared to how difficult a fight that the Adept5/Warrior2 would offer them. The Bear only has an AC of 16 and 42 HP. You have four to five decent hits on that bear in a single round and you drop it. You entangle that bear for even a single round and you've probably already won.Four to five decent hit with roughly 50% chance to hit AC 16 at first level is actually pretty though to manage. Sure your martial character can probably manage to land a hit or two, but they likely won't stand more than a round in melee, the bear hits for 1d6+5 on each of its 3 attacks. Oh and goodluck trying to outrun it, it has 40 feet speed and
Run as a feat. Absolute nightmare to fight at first level.
I guess my group's approach to tactics might color my expectations on the difficulty of the battle FAR MORE than I originally assumed.
If you take the right combination of traits/feats at first level as a warrior, you can get a +10 to hit (1 BAB, + 4 Str, +1 Trait, +1 MW weapon, +1 Big Game Hunter, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 size), so let's clip the optimization down to 50% and get rid of +3 of those bonuses. That's still a +7 to hit, or effectively +9 if that bear tries to charge you (and it is likely to do so). If it does, and you are using a two handed reach weapon sans power attack, thats likely to be another 14 HP damage on an AoO. Now that bear is down to 14/42 HP.
Now, your other support character steps in behind that bear. With the +2 flanking, -2 from charge and an expected +4 to hit (+3 from str/dex and a +1 from somewhere else, keeping optimization low), that's still an effective +8 to hit. If your support character is a Rogue and a small character, thats an effective +9 to hit and another 7 damage.
That bear has 7 HP left and the Arcane caster and Kineticist are going to absolutely wreck it on their next turn. If they don't, or the damage has been lackluster thus far, the martial character now has a chance to power attack and RUIN that bear.
That is how easily a 1st level party, with only a wee bit of optimization, can take down a CR4 grizzly bear. And we didn't even use buff spells or attempt to control the battlefield.
Yes, there are plenty of other ways this fight could play out. But, I am not trying to cover all the bases with a single explanation. Just showing how an AVERAGE encounter with a grizzly bear with a half-way optimized group at level 1 would pan out. We can substitute the kineticist with an archer character if you'd like, with rapid shot and point-blank shot. It doesn't change the math too substantially.
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Kobold Adept 5/Warrior 2 is a CR 4 foe.
CR5, actually, and thus not something a APL 1 party is supposed to ever fight (the table maxes out as "epic" encoutner at CR +3).
According to everything I have read on building NPC's, an Adept 4/Warrior 4 is a CR 3 enemy, if given NPC gear.
Nope, that's CR 6.
For some reason, I can't find the rule for NPCs with NPC classes CR at the moment, but i know for a fact that it's ECL-2.
"Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Chapter 2, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept—see page 448) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2." CRB pg. 398
Note that NPC gear is presumed for the above - there is no further reduction for NPC gear, but rather an increase for PC gear: "a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table 12–4) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR." CRB pg. 399
I guess my group's approach to tactics might color my expectations on the difficulty of the battle FAR MORE than I originally assumed.
** spoiler omitted **...
I mean, we play at different tables, and that's fine, but to me +7 to hit at the first level is actually pretty high. I generally see martial stands around +5/+6 at the first level, but I generally play with 15 point buy. An attack bonus of +10 is bonker, I didn't even knew it was possible! I'm also not sure where you get a straight +1 to hit with trait bonuses, outside of big game hunter (that I actually just discovered, it looks way too strong for a trait, but I digress).
Again it's most certainly because of play difference, but the party you showed me I'd called ''optimized''. Not cheesy, but optimized. Although, I'd argue the wizard makes very poor choice by optimizing magic missiles, but it's whatever lol.
That being said, it's still not fool proof, +7 to hit still brings you at 70% chance to hit, hope you don't miss, cause good luck.
Then again, I took a bear cause it was CR 4 and I knew it had different tactics than a flying spellcasting kobold would have. It's still not a walk in the park outside of heavy optimization. I mean, we could think of other CR4 creatures that are way more deadly than the bear: a Hound Archon, a Gargoyle or a Minotaur. The point is: Fighting a CR 4 at first level is gonna be deadly. Bear might a been weaker than I originally thought, though.
I mean, we play at different tables, and that's fine, but to me +7 to hit at the first level is actually pretty high. I generally see martial stands around +5/+6 at the first level, but I generally play with 15 point buy. An attack bonus of +10 is bonker, I didn't even knew it was possible! I'm also not sure where you get a straight +1 to hit with trait bonuses, outside of big game hunter (that I actually just discovered, it looks way too strong for a trait, but I digress).
I agree that a +10 is bonkers, and that isn't the highest it can get. That is why I sliced off +3 of the bonus and called it 'half-optimized'. Big Game Hunter is actually a feat. The trait that gives you the +1 to hit (+2 actually) is Ancestral Weapon. These are the two items I 'dropped' off the count because of the cheese.
Again it's most certainly because of play difference, but the party you showed me I'd called ''optimized''. Not cheesy, but optimized. Although, I'd argue the wizard makes very poor choice by optimizing magic missiles, but it's whatever lol.
I guess we have difference of opinion, but I don't see how a kineticist (sans any listed feats) or a wizard/sorcerer with Spell Specialization (Evocation/Magic Missile), or a Rogue with 16 Str or Dex is 'optimized'. The martial character, yes, certainly, but only half-way so.
That being said, it's still not fool proof, +7 to hit still brings you at 70% chance to hit, hope you don't miss, cause good luck.
Yeah, getting full attacked by the bear is not a good option. But you should at least have an AC as good as the bear, if not better, as a martial character and it has at most the same chance to hit you.
Then again, I took a bear cause it was CR 4 and I knew it had different tactics than a flying spellcasting kobold would have. It's still not a walk in the park outside of heavy optimization. I mean, we could think of other CR4 creatures that are way more deadly than the bear: a Hound Archon, a Gargoyle or a Minotaur. The point is: Fighting a CR 4 at first level is gonna be deadly. Bear might a been weaker than I originally thought, though.
You are correct here. A grizzly bear is not the same challenge as a minotaur or gargoyle. I'd actually lower the bear to a CR 3 in light of those two monsters.
I will have to remember that about NPC's... however, I 100% just use the table, itself, for placing CR and stats and stuffs...
I build whatever I want to build, then see where it lands on the table, usually checking Primary DC first. Then High Attack second. Usually, about this time, I remember the characters at my table, laugh, and start adding to ability scores, bumping up HD, adding better gear... just to give the poor NPC a chance. And by the time I trust the NPC to not be a complete wash, it is probably +2 or +3 CR higher than when I originally started/intended.
For a Grizzly Bear at level 1, they would have readied brace weapons, used control spells, and ranged attacks... constantly kiting the bear in a big circle or retreating backwards through a cave where they have already cleared... keeping brace/reach weapons between the bear and archers/casters. If the bear was stupid enough to follow them for a second charge attack, it wouldn't live to see a 3rd round. A smart bear would run away after charging into that mess the first time.
Same party against the flying Kobold Adpet...? Would have found overhead cover, enlarged the guy with a reach weapon, everyone else would ready ranged attacks... and probably would have shot its mount/Familiar out from under it before the end of the 2nd round.
Kobold Adept 5/Warrior 2: 33 HP. CR 4 b/c kobolds taking only NPC class levels are HD-3 to their CR, instead of the standard HD-2 for other monsters.
Wait Really?! Makes them more awesome i guess! Although, it's kinda cheesy on a caster lol
An enlarged melee martial PC with a Reach weapon can attack this kobold when it dive-bombs to deliver Burning Hands. The average enlarged melee martial type, a Str build and attacking with a lowly longspear is delivering 1d10 +9 (14.5 avg) before any Power Attack or other buffs. That's nearly half the kobold's HP in a single successful hit.
Enlarge would only work if the Kobold cannot retreat and join back in a minute. Heck, that thing has schorching ray, good job reducing your touch AC by 2 :P
Obviously if my players were brand new to PF1 with low to no optimization on their PCs, this NPC boss fight would either not occur or the boss would be ratcheted down to Adept 3/Warrior 2 (CR 2) with Greater Spell Spec removed. My own players for my current campaigns however are veterans with 30+ years of TTRPG experience each and have played PF1 for at least a decade, if not more. Between the builds they can pull together just at level 1 and the tactics they use before and during a fight... this would be a very tough CR4 fight.
That's 100% fair and i was not criticizing your DMing style either. I was just a bit overwhelmed by how rough that ennemy could be for a first level party. We also have to keep in mind that, this thing will probably get the drop on the party, it's small therefore probably good in stealth and with improved initiative, it can drop 1 or more player before they can even act.
Oh and it's fine not to give it too good gear, but the ''creating npcs'' section would put them at 4.3k starting gold, more than enough to get them a fairly good armor, shield and some scroll and potion, like invisibility.
But yeah, i agree, small monsters are awesome for low level encounter!
I agree that a +10 is bonkers, and that isn't the highest it can get. That is why I sliced off +3 of the bonus and called it 'half-optimized'. Big Game Hunter is actually a feat. The trait that gives you the +1 to hit (+2 actually) is Ancestral Weapon. These are the two items I 'dropped' off the count because of the cheese.
Doh, my bad, i thought big game hunter was a trait. It's a cool feat then. And yeah, i tend to straight up ban attack bonus traits unless they are very specific. I think traits are cool to round up a character, but if my players starts using them to optimize too much i'm just gonna remind them that it's 100% an optional thing and that i'm not forced to included them.
I guess we have difference of opinion, but I don't see how a kineticist (sans any listed feats) or a wizard/sorcerer with Spell Specialization (Evocation/Magic Missile), or a Rogue with 16 Str or Dex is 'optimized'. The martial character, yes, certainly, but only half-way so.
I'll admit i was 100% focusing on the martial optimisation. As i pointed out, i don't think the wizard is optimized at all. The rogue is fine too. The kineticist is probably fine too, you didn't provide any statistics for it, but it looks pretty hard to cheese them at low level.
Yeah, getting full attacked by the bear is not a good option. But you should at least have an AC as good as the bear, if not better, as a martial character and it has at most the same chance to hit you.
Indeed, but get hit once and you're in big trouble.
You are correct here. A grizzly bear is not the same challenge as a minotaur or gargoyle. I'd actually lower the bear to a CR 3 in light of those two monsters.
I actually agree, i think you've showned that the bear is actually kinda weak for its CR. I think it largely have to do with it's inhability to use tactics that involve anything else than charging and mauling its target.
I will have to remember that about NPC's... however, I 100% just use the table, itself, for placing CR and stats and stuffs...
I build whatever I want to build, then see where it lands on the table, usually checking Primary DC first. Then High Attack second. Usually, about this time, I remember the characters at my table, laugh, and start adding to ability scores, bumping up HD, adding better gear... just to give the poor NPC a chance. And by the time I trust the NPC to not be a complete wash, it is probably +2 or +3 CR higher than when I originally started/intended.
It's probably the best way to do it honestly.
For a Grizzly Bear at level 1, they would have readied brace weapons, used control spells, and ranged attacks... constantly kiting the bear in a big circle or retreating backwards through a cave where they have already cleared... keeping brace/reach weapons between the bear and archers/casters. If the bear was stupid enough to follow them for a second charge attack, it wouldn't live to see a 3rd round. A smart bear would run away after charging into that mess the first time.
Yeah, brace is strong against a bear, i've seen it in action. I think i'll drop the bear argument, i've been shown that they definitely are killable by 1st level party. It's just dangerous, as fighting a grizzly should be.
Same party against the flying Kobold Adpet...? Would have found overhead cover, enlarged the guy with a reach weapon, everyone else would ready ranged attacks... and probably would have shot its mount/Familiar out from under it before the end of the 2nd round.
If i didn't make any mistake, a Mauler Owl in battle form would have roughly 14 AC, not high, but not too bad either against first level character. The Owl should also have around 16 HP, which is not that high, but kind rough to kill in one round with low level ranged weapon. I suspect it would take at least two or three character to focus it down in one round. Then if you focus on the Owl, you're not killing the kobold.
And that's assuming it doesn't win initiave, with +6 it will likely play before most character.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but i imagine that most scenario end up with the party dead or at least with half casualties.
CR 4 b/c kobolds taking only NPC class levels are HD-3 to their CR, instead of the standard HD-2 for other monsters.
Where do you get that from?
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It's in the monster entry on the legacy site, so it should be in the Bestiary 1.
Kobold Characters
Kobolds are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty).
For some reason that information wasn't copied on the archives or the d20pfsrd.