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I feel like the basic theology behind PF and similar systems makes actual heresy very difficult to be possible. It's nearly all turned into apostasy and the embracing of a new patron deity.
(I always considered this an interesting break with the game's roots from people with Christian mindsets; you pretty much need a theological setup like Christianity or Islam for heresy to even be possible, and the genre assumptions of polytheism and possible direct communing with the deity preclude the existence of it.
"Hey, Sarenrae, is assassination in your name okay?"
"Nope. Please stop."
"Welp, that settles that.")
ETA: But here's what I can envision:
"Hey, Sarenrae, is assassination in your name okay?"
"Nope. Please stop."
"But we're doing it for you! Here, have another infidel!"
"I said no!"
"We mean it all to help!"
"You know what? No. Just stop. No more of my light. I can't let you do this."
"Aw! But we really love you! We promise, only the finest sacrifices in your name!"
"I don't want your sacrifices! Please, just stop this nonsense and I'll forgive you."
"Hey, Ahriman/Nurgal here. I see you want Sarenrae's forgiveness. I bet she just doesn't understand just how much you love her, just how many you're willing to kill for her. Keep going. She's sure to see your devotion one day. I'll support your efforts."
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Going with some of what was said in the beginning, Thuvia seems the most underdeveloped. Given that their main export is a product of alchemy, I would just double down on Thuvia being the leader in Alchemical research in the inner sea. Give them homunculi and super-soldier armies, transmutation factories that turn desert sand into valuable materials, alchemically treated castle-walls hard as diamond. Go crazy. I'd love to see what Paizo and folks could come up with a theme centered on alchemy.
Going with some of what was said in the beginning, Thuvia seems the most underdeveloped. Given that their main export is a product of alchemy, I would just double down on Thuvia being the leader in Alchemical research in the inner sea. Give them homunculi and super-soldier armies, transmutation factories that turn desert sand into valuable materials, alchemically treated castle-walls hard as diamond. Go crazy. I'd love to see what Paizo and folks could come up with a theme centered on alchemy.
If you haven’t already seen, the Impossible Lands book goes quite heavy on this theme for Nex! It might make them hesitant to double down on something so similar, especially when Thuvia’s five city-states have other cultural anchors (Lamasara’s artists, Merab’s devout Sarenite faith) to define them.
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The other thing I keep thinking about is how Garund, despite being like Africa, doesn't have a Sahel, thanks to the Barrier Wall. And I can't help but think that Thuvia could easily borrow from Sudan-Sahelian architecture and have buildings like the Grand Mosque of Djenne or the Library of Timbuktu as places to travel to.
You'd also be able to place a Mansa Musa style analog in the country, what with its single-resource riches.
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Yeah the lack of a Sahel-equivalent is a bit of a shame. But that's a good point, Thuvia probably is one of the better places to do it--the region is religiously/culturally influenced by the setting's stand-in for Islamic civilizations, but was not directly conquered by them, making it more like the Sahel than the Maghreb in that sense (though otherwise it's the reverse).
I guess there's the northernmost bit of the Mwangi Expanse outside the jungle, but there doesn't seem to be a lot going on there, and the enormous mountains don't really facilitate overland trade. Some of the Bonuwat names in LO:ME are Senegalese, but that's closer to the coast as befits their theme; Thuvia (especially areas inhabited by the Mauxi) might be the best place to draw on the inland parts of that area if a writer wanted to.
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And we've now circled back again to 'man, getting to see Mauxiland would be really cool.'
I'm not complaining.
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It occurred to me that one way to set apart Sarenrae's worship in Northern Garund is through 2e Pantheons. Talking over with friends, it came up that D&D-esque games tend to do very badly representing the polytheistic worlds they're set in, but with monotheistic classes, but 2e's Pantheons allow a much broader view of the world and an opportunity to see the ways Sarenrae and her faith interacts with those of different places, without getting into the weeds with doctrinal schismata. Sarenrae is already paired with her paramours Desna and and Shelyn as part of The Prismatic Ray, with the Mzali sun lions Chohar, Lohar and Tlehar as The Touch of the Sun, and with Ashava, Black Butterfly, Desna, Ketephys, Pulura, Tsukiyo and even Yog-Sothoth as part of the Cosmic Caravan. You could certainly do something similar in each part of the Golden Road.
In Thuvia, the Empyreal Lord Lalaci shares the sun domain and his followers there are notably hostile to the Water Lords who try to stop travellers slaking their thirst, which has some sympathy among local Sarenites. Fettle Sects are also present in at least Merab, bringing peace and comfort to the grieving through the Psychopomp Ushers. And given that Dahak has cultists in Thuvia, you could justify adding Apsu to such a Pantheon, maybe theme it around maintaining the delicate equilibrium of the desert, protecting travellers and punishing bandits and predatory Water Lords.
In Katapesh you might pair Sarenrae with Iomedae - whose followers arrived just in time to help break the gnoll siege of Solku - where Sarenite faith has become something more like the knightly chivalry of Iomedae, and with the extremely recent history of slavery in the country you might throw in Milani for good measure as a goddess who notably had a problem with Sarenrae-worshippers who had no issue with slavery - a Pantheon of crusaders (without the capital C) who stand up for the weak and free the oppressed in a country where the ruling Pactmasters have no financial stake in doing so, and therefore no interest. Or you could have a more mystical Pantheon, where cultists try to induce religious ecstasy to commune with her, and pair her with Cayden for communing through intoxication like the Dionysian mysteries, Ashava for dancing ecstasy like the Sufi mystics, Chucaro for communing through dreams, and Lymnieris for religious ecstasy through orgasm.
In Osirion, I like the idea of the Garundi people incorporating Sarenrae into the local traditions as its culture reinterprets itself and amalgamates those Keleshite influences it wants to retain. My own game euhemerises her name to be Sat-n-rA, "Daughter of Ra," so you could match her with Sekhmet, Hathor and Bastet as "The Daughters of the Sun," or you could say Sarenrae is the Keleshite name of Raet-Tawy, "Ra of the Two Lands," the female sun god and aspect/consort of Ra, and later consort Montu who was assimilated into Horus. In such a pantheon, you could bring Ra, Horus and Sarenrae together. You might even associate her with Qetesh, who in the first bestiary is named as an Empyreal Lord (with no domains provided) and in real life was a goddess who bridged native Egyptian and immigrant Near-Eastern communities.
In Keleshite Osirion and mainstream Qadira, we move to something more approaching the "orthodox" version of Sarenraeism, with a lot more Keleshite influence and a lot more emphasis on Sarenrae's singular value than as part of a wider pantheon, but even in wider Kelesh Sarenrae isn't the only god, just the most popular and the imperial patron. Khattib is known to worship Oathos, originally the consort of another goddess who grew jealous and poisoned him, only to become one of Sarenrae's consorts and patron of the chronically ill. There are also the Mishyrians who revere Falayna and who have been fighting the Moloch worshipping Beshzens for centuries. For Qadira specifically, perhaps add Sinashakti, revered along caravan stops and roadside shrines, Keltheald, a sun god of scenic vistas and beauty, and Ragathiel, who the more militant Qadirans who still itch to teach the Taldans the errors of their ways and remember their persecution bring in, as "Guardians of the Golden Road"? There's a lot of potential there, especially once you get into the different satrapies who would have their own equivalent pantheons focussed on different things.
And finally, in Rahadoum, the remaining Sarenite cultists would maintain a pantheon specifically tailored to hiding - Norgorber and Achaekek, having old roots and wanting to strike back; Sivanah, goddess of illusions; and Nurgal, the wrathful demon lord of the burning sun. If you're wondering where Sarenrae is, that would be because despite their protestations, and in many cases sincere belief, Sarenrae wants absolutely nothing to do with their extremism, hasn't had anything to do with them for a long time, and her disapproval is a secret held only by the sect's senior members who reason that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, or might even be clerics of Nyarlathotep masquerading as Sarenites, and the only thing stopping the Sarenites of neighbouring Thuvia from putting an end to their machinations against the Rahadoumi state themselves is, ironically, the Rahadoumi state.
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To be clear, what people believe doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. One thing I like about Pathfinder's gods is where there's ambiguity - has Sarenrae always been a god or was she first an Empyreal Lord who ascended? Was Pharasma the first god who created the universe, or did Asmodeus and Ihys? And so on. Differing accounts and conflicting versions feels more true to a polytheistic world than having concrete answers - the natures of the gods are vast, and contain multitudes. In such a world, the fact that most of Golarion worships Sarenrae in her own right and has never heard of Ra is not a contradiction to the idea that Sarenrae is a daughter of Ra - Ra is ancient, the first god who floated up from the waters of chaos to create the universe (unless it was Ptah who Thought the universe into being, or Neith who wove it into being, or the Aten who caused it to exist, etc.) and he has a LOT of children and grandchildren who are powerful in their own right.
But it doesn't actually matter if Sarenrae isn't related, the important part would be that she's being adopted and adapted into the original pantheon despite her worshippers trying to replace it. In real life Ancient Egypt, many foreign gods were adapted as Egyptian gods or their children through syncretism - the semitic Anat and Astarte as daughters of Ra, Zeus and Hades blended with the Apis bull and Osiris to create Serapis, etc. The natures of the gods are mysterious, hidden from mortals and difficult for us to grasp unless inducted into the Mysteries, the stories and fables told about them merely useful metaphors.
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“Thuvia-as-fantasy UAE” (in terms of coping with being dependent on a single export) is a really, really compelling angle. Between that and the desertification in Rahadoum, I love the potential for some super nonstandard plotlines in the region.
TBH I think the Sun Orchid Elixir as a whole is not really a good plot point for the whole place, considering its a pretty pitiful accomplishment when stacked up against every other person at that level, so to speak. And monopolizing the generic "immortality" thing to a single item in a world of magic feels awkward to me.
I understand from a meta reason it's meant to be a sort of "priceless plot-starting object" but I feel better things can carry that title.
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I'd be overjoyed to see what Pantheons would get printed in a Golden Road book, as there's likely a lot of syncretism going on between the main Inner Sea deities, the old Osirian/Egyptian gods, the elemental lords, the infusion of Keleshite Sarenite faith, and whatever else has made its way into people's souls along the trade routes. Saren-Ra could absolutely be in play here, as could whatever unique variations on dwarven faith the Pahmet practice.
An earnest look at the good and bad of Mortality would also go a long way.
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Also don't leave out the possibility that some pantheon gets stuck with some deity that the rest don't want, like a crazy relative that you really wish you could ban from the holiday table, but for whatever reason, it's not up to you . . . .
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“Thuvia-as-fantasy UAE” (in terms of coping with being dependent on a single export) is a really, really compelling angle. Between that and the desertification in Rahadoum, I love the potential for some super nonstandard plotlines in the region.
TBH I think the Sun Orchid Elixir as a whole is not really a good plot point for the whole place, considering its a pretty pitiful accomplishment when stacked up against every other person at that level, so to speak. And monopolizing the generic "immortality" thing to a single item in a world of magic feels awkward to me.
I understand from a meta reason it's meant to be a sort of "priceless plot-starting object" but I feel better things can carry that title.
I quite like the idea of the Sun Orchid Elixir being the equivalent of oil to Thuvia's industry, funding the nation's infrastructure with foreign cash but existing in a delicate state if the Sun Orchids ever get overharvested or become extinct in the wild. Though like Rahadoum's militant secularism, when that's ALL the nation becomes known for it becomes a problem, but one easily fixed by giving each of the city-states some differentiation.
Also don't leave out the possibility that some pantheon gets stuck with some deity that the rest don't want, like a crazy relative that you really wish you could ban from the holiday table, but for whatever reason, it's not up to you . . . .
I like to think Nethyx is the school kid who has to be dragged back into frame for every class photo and wheedled endlessly for every group project, however brilliant he is. Consequently, any pantheon that invokes him understands that his participation is conditional at best, and entirely absent more often than not.
Also, 1st Edition had Order of the Godclaw, which had a grouping of 5 Lawful deities that seemed to function for them as a pantheon in all but name (although some argue that the Order of the Godclaw isn't actually getting their diving spells from them). Not sure if it's still around, but if it is, you can be sure that its inclusion of Asmodeus does not make most of the other members (except Abadar) happy.
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Also, 1st Edition had Order of the Godclaw, which had a grouping of 5 Lawful deities that seemed to function for them as a pantheon in all but name (although some argue that the Order of the Godclaw isn't actually getting their diving spells from them). Not sure if it's still around, but if it is, you can be sure that its inclusion of Asmodeus does not make most of the other members (except Abadar) happy.
Indeed, the Godclaw exists as a 2e pantheon with its own pantheon deity entry already.
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Another thread reminded me about Jinn, and how the actual Islamic folklore around them is pretty ripe to expand on. Genies get treated in D&D and (consequently) Pathfinder as basically humanoid elementals, whereas in real life Jinn function a bit more like the Fey - sometimes helpful, usually harmful, existing outside of the naturally ordained order - not necessarily evil, but also not good either. You could really do some interesting stuff there with a 2e supplement for the Golden Road that expands the known types of genies, or introduces some Middle-Eastern themed fey for the region - I keep thinking about Asuulek's interest in a demiplane associated with fire fey. Not to mention, Rage of Elements is about to introduce a whole two new elemental planes to people with Genie-folk associated with those elements.
Yeah, elixir as oil is what I'm thinking, too, although I also think of Mansa Musa and Mali's gold mines as another analog to be explored in Thuvia. Definitely could be the way one city state operates.
Indeed, the Godclaw exists as a 2e pantheon with its own pantheon deity entry already.Also, 1st Edition had Order of the Godclaw, which had a grouping of 5 Lawful deities that seemed to function for them as a pantheon in all but name (although some argue that the Order of the Godclaw isn't actually getting their diving spells from them). Not sure if it's still around, but if it is, you can be sure that its inclusion of Asmodeus does not make most of the other members (except Abadar) happy.
Thanks -- I wasn't looking at the right place in Archives of Nethys for 2nd Edition.
I wonder if Paizo could throw the stereotypical furries a bone and retcon in some previously-unnoticed jackalfolk in the region. They'd be very popular, especially with a lack of non-Shoony canine ancestries so far.
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I wonder if Paizo could throw the stereotypical furries a bone and retcon in some previously-unnoticed jackalfolk in the region. They'd be very popular, especially with a lack of non-Shoony canine ancestries so far.
Shoony have existed for millennia on the Isle of Kortos, I don't think it's too outlandish to say that maybe an offshoot heritage immigrated to northern Thuvia or Osirion and took on some jackal-like traits. This is a species that believes it was created wholecloth by a god in historical times, maybe Aroden also had an appreciation for Pharaoh Hounds too?
On the other hand, scarab people who act as wardens of Osirion would be a fine addition. Currently there are not any ancestries that resemble insects, so it would be a first for 2e.
I'd certainly prefer if the Risen Guard's scarab-shaped armour was an homage to a local scarab folk known for protecting the nation, perhaps related to Khepri, rather than because Sothis is built around the corpse of a massive Spawn of Rovagug that looks like one. Modelling it explicitly on Ulunat strikes me as very Hellknight-adjacent, which doesn't seem like the intent.
Ah, whoops! Sorry, too late to change it now.
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My predictions for 2023 have been pretty hopeless so far, but I have to confess: if you squint, then the Thuvian alchemy in Treasure Vault, the elemental focus of Rage of Elements, the Firebrands being a bunch of abolitionists and rebels (who would likely object to regimes like Qadira and Rahadoum), and the existence of The Enmity Cycle (a Thuvian adventure) might steer us here.
Now, my gut instinct is Tian Xia, and my expectation is that I'll be completely surprised, but it seemed like a potential insight worth sharing.
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If there is a major AP for the Golden Road, I would expect it to focus largely on Thuvia. That seems to be the region Paizo are paying the most attention to, and where they have the biggest blank canvas. 1e already had major campaigns set in Katapesh and Osirion (even if Legacy of Fire is pretty old by now), but establishing things in Thuvia gives you most of what makes those places interesting but with enough clean slate to make feel different.
Not that I'm averse to more Osirion lore if Paizo want to throw me a bone. I still think you can do some interesting things centred on the post-Pharaonic period, looking at the complicated legacies left by the Satrapy and Sultanate and how they continue to influence modern Osiriani society - it can't all be mummies and pyramids, let's look at some of the great follies of the satraps or orders of mounted Keleshite Asavirs or Daivrats and Genie Binders protecting people or negotiating with the elementals and genies of the desert in ways the Pharaohs didn't - when the Pharaonic pacts failed, as storms got worse and the river's annual rhythm got less reliable, having people going out to try and work out a new deal would have been a priority for keleshites who came from an empire that prides itself on its alliances with other planes. Even if the satraps and sultans had their fair share of bad rulers, surely there are SOME good things that modern Osirion can adapt to the new regime, even if it came from a colonial elite that's been overthrown.
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Thuvia makes a good mini-setting unto itself, what with the five cities having very distinct vibes and being sort of uncomfortable rivals. Throw in lots of desert wilderness between them all, planar incursions, local nomads, ancient tech-ruins… lots of classic fantasy stuff through the Golden Road’s lens.
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I got Monsters of Myth since one of the monsters in that book plays a role in an AP, and one thing I really liked about it was the section on the Desert's Howl. I think it definitively answered the question of why you'd set a game in Thuvia if you weren't into the tribalism aspect. It explains that the desert of Thuvia is maddening because you can never be sure whether a mirage is real or not. The desert is under an occult curse that makes nightmares reality, and even if you are hallucinating it could be that a monster is using illusion magic to hunt you down. It's a good way of expanding on one of the few things we already knew about Thuvia, which was that the desert is particularly dangerous. That's why the Water Lords exist. Suddenly Thuvia is the perfect place to set a game if you want to lean on the surreal aspects of the paranormal and psychic magic. The sci-fi part generally gets the most focus, but if you don't like that you can set a game in Thuvia and it will work out nicely.
I know I've been on a bit of a How Do We Fix Sarenites kick lately, but you've just reminded me that Osirion, like late Roman and Byzantine Egypt, has its own storied tradition of hermits wandering out to the desert to find wisdom. I understand that a lot of them tend to be Irorans looking to perfect their bodies by stripping away distraction, or Sarenites looking to better commune with the sun goddess. It would be interesting to see those fleshed out. The Irorans have a couple of major monasteries at Tar Kuata, the Stepped Tower of Djedefer, near the Temple of An-Alak and at the dwarven monastery of Oe-Tet. But are there Sarenite hermitages and monasteries out in the desert sands, stark white enclosures where clerics and monks shut out the worldly concerns of the wider world to transcribe their histories and sacred texts in the same way coptic monks did, beginning the Christian monastic tradition? Not just in Osirion, but across the Golden Road, except for Rahadoum? A Sarenite monastery in the Thuvian desert having to contend with attacks by divs and ghuls sounds like a really cool premise for an adventure.
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I got Monsters of Myth since one of the monsters in that book plays a role in an AP, and one thing I really liked about it was the section on the Desert's Howl. I think it definitively answered the question of why you'd set a game in Thuvia if you weren't into the tribalism aspect. It explains that the desert of Thuvia is maddening because you can never be sure whether a mirage is real or not. The desert is under an occult curse that makes nightmares reality, and even if you are hallucinating it could be that a monster is using illusion magic to hunt you down. It's a good way of expanding on one of the few things we already knew about Thuvia, which was that the desert is particularly dangerous. That's why the Water Lords exist. Suddenly Thuvia is the perfect place to set a game if you want to lean on the surreal aspects of the paranormal and psychic magic. The sci-fi part generally gets the most focus, but if you don't like that you can set a game in Thuvia and it will work out nicely.I know I've been on a bit of a How Do We Fix Sarenites kick lately, but you've just reminded me that Osirion, like late Roman and Byzantine Egypt, has its own storied tradition of hermits wandering out to the desert to find wisdom. I understand that a lot of them tend to be Irorans looking to perfect their bodies by stripping away distraction, or Sarenites looking to better commune with the sun goddess. It would be interesting to see those fleshed out. The Irorans have a couple of major monasteries at Tar Kuata, the Stepped Tower of Djedefer, near the Temple of An-Alak and at the dwarven monastery of Oe-Tet. But are there Sarenite hermitages and monasteries out in the desert sands, stark white enclosures where clerics and monks shut out the worldly concerns of the wider world to transcribe their histories and sacred texts in the same way coptic monks did, beginning the Christian monastic tradition? Not just in Osirion, but across the Golden Road, except for Rahadoum? A Sarenite monastery in the Thuvian desert having to contend with attacks by divs and ghuls sounds like a really cool premise for an adventure.
The name of the desert rose.
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I love the idea of a Sarenite monastery in the desert, maybe as a base for some Dawnflower anchorites who patrol the desert.
I have a sandbox game going based in Merab, and I did have the players encounter the Desert's Howl briefly. They were appropriately freaked out. There is so much going on in that Thuvian desert, and you can't tell from the Inner Sea map just how big it is, but it is ENORMOUS.
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I love the idea of a Sarenite monastery in the desert, maybe as a base for some Dawnflower anchorites who patrol the desert.
I have a sandbox game going based in Merab, and I did have the players encounter the Desert's Howl briefly. They were appropriately freaked out. There is so much going on in that Thuvian desert, and you can't tell from the Inner Sea map just how big it is, but it is ENORMOUS.
A Thuvian sandbox (heh) sounds so fun. Your players are lucky.
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While it's not a full look at the region, The Enmity Cycle will at least give us a look at Thuvia; that's pretty exciting.
I’ve already been planting the seeds for this, my players will be level 4 when this comes out. I couldn’t believe when they announced it, like it was perfect for my group, both in setting and in theme.
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The Continuing the Adventure section in the third and final book of Gatewalkers had a hook for adventures in the Golden Road I find intriguing.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm happy that James Jacobs and I were on the same page there!
Between all of that and the extant Alghollthu plotline, I'm really hoping for a psychic espionage/horror Golden Road AP someday.
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Osirion has also long been noted as a place with psychic potential, particularly around the Androsphinx of Zukebri - the "Calosian Manuscript" claims the Pharaohs of Ascension received 11 gifts from the Emissaries of Aucturn, one of which may have been the Androsphinx, and it's surrounded by a field that the sand doesn't touch. A Lamashtan cult sacrifices passersby to it by throwing them into that circle, where they are driven mad by psychic assault, but occasionally a victim will instead suffer a "mindquake," awakening their latent psychic powers. It also leaks a black fluid that the Black-blooded oracle may find familiar.
It came up elsewhere: we can assume Qadira has abolished mortal slavery, right?
LO: Firebrands has both Cheliax and Katapesh outlawing the practice, and LO: Legends before that had the Shahiyan of Qadira as an outspoken abolitionist. What the former book does describe as works to liberate genies from binding, which suggests to me that it's been the cause local radicals have seized onto as a next step, but it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere.
There's no way that it wouldn't have been.