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Who are the interesting antagonists in this region? I only can think of a few, but know more than these have to exist.
I'm really interested in the dragons in the region. Both Deyrubrujan and Loaralis are two blue dragons of different ages who live in Thuvia, in the Barrier wall and the city of Pashow respectively. They don't necessarily work together but aren't enemies. And then there is the blue dragon ravener Arantaros who also lives in the barrier wall. Arantaros and Deyrubrujan are very similar with their goals and even live near each other, I can see them exploding into a full-on proxy war with all of Thuvia and beyond being caught up in their feud.
Then there is the copper dragon Mierusildas who is monitoring all of these evil dragons from her home on Glasswall Isle.
It's been touched on in Pathfinder Society adventures, but Prince Zinlo would also like to bring the entire nation under his control, though I don't know how far they let him go without disrupting the overall status quo.
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https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Vourinoii'd like a revisit of the cycle of death & rebirth elves from 1E... b/c hopefully i can talk my ex-GM into running OUTLAWS and I'd like to play one.Can you tell me a little more about these? It’s the first I’ve heard of them.
Ah, that makes more sense! Vourinoi as a name originates from 2e, I believe; they get a few paragraphs in the Lost Omens Character Guide, talking about their faith in Desna, their cultural belief in a concept called 'the Brighteness' that's a sort of a unique personal revelation, and a broadly fluid relationship with gender identity. There's also a very cute note that they like to host visiting Mualijae and vice versa, which I think is adorable.
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I'm really interested in the dragons in the region.
In addition to Thuvia's dragons, there are two major chromatic dragons who roam Osirion. Asuulek, the red dragon who is extremely interested in the fire/fey demiplane in the volcano Sokar's Boil and has taken captives to tend his lair while he does so, while the Ruby Prince himself sends agents to try and unlock those secrets first (without the knowledge of his elemental advisor Janhelia who is from there); and SUsurex, the Crystal King, who lives a little north from Asuulek and has enslaved thousands of Yerbira to dig beneath his crystal tower to figure out what the hell happened to cause the Glazen Sheets and how it can help him take over Osirion. Asuulek is the more powerful dragon, being ancient, but the adult Susurex seems to have more followers and more open ambition.
There's also a young crystal dragon in Wati, Shardizhad, who lives in a sinkhole but has established herself as a kind of merchant, though with a limited customer base since she lives in the necropolis.
There is also at least one undefined but large red dragon who inhabits the Katapesh side of the Barrier Wall, a young green dragon who inhabits a swamp, rumours of a dragon who takes slaves and sells them in Katapesh city, and is noted for attracting red, gold, blue, brass and copper dragons.
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I'm really interested in the dragons in the region.In addition to Thuvia's dragons, there are two major chromatic dragons who roam Osirion. Asuulek, the red dragon who is extremely interested in the fire/fey demiplane in the volcano Sokar's Boil and has taken captives to tend his lair while he does so, while the Ruby Prince himself sends agents to try and unlock those secrets first (without the knowledge of his elemental advisor Janhelia who is from there); and SUsurex, the Crystal King, who lives a little north from Asuulek and has enslaved thousands of Yerbira to dig beneath his crystal tower to figure out what the hell happened to cause the Glazen Sheets and how it can help him take over Osirion. Asuulek is the more powerful dragon, being ancient, but the adult Susurex seems to have more followers and more open ambition.
There's also a young crystal dragon in Wati, Shardizhad, who lives in a sinkhole but has established herself as a kind of merchant, though with a limited customer base since she lives in the necropolis.
There is also at least one undefined but large red dragon who inhabits the Katapesh side of the Barrier Wall, a young green dragon who inhabits a swamp, rumours of a dragon who takes slaves and sells them in Katapesh city, and is noted for attracting red, gold, blue, brass and copper dragons.
I appreciate how novel things like "go slay the dragon" get to feel on Golarion, thanks to how varied the setting is.
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Ah, that makes more sense! Vourinoi as a name originates from 2e, I believe; they get a few paragraphs in the Lost Omens Character Guide, talking about their faith in Desna, their cultural belief in a concept called 'the Brighteness' that's a sort of a unique personal revelation, and a broadly fluid relationship with gender identity. There's also a very cute note that they like to host visiting Mualijae and vice versa, which I think is adorable.https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Vourinoii'd like a revisit of the cycle of death & rebirth elves from 1E... b/c hopefully i can talk my ex-GM into running OUTLAWS and I'd like to play one.Can you tell me a little more about these? It’s the first I’ve heard of them.
The Brightness is deep lore, predating Pathfinder entirely and going back to 3.5.
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I hadn't the faintest! Here's the relevant LOCG excerpt (one of three paragraphs that the Vourinoi get):
Vourinoi have a loose relationship with gender, and many exist
outside of binary gender or move among genders as their feelings
take them, an identity they refer to as kala-shei, or, “the dance.” Many Vourinoi also believe in the elven philosophy known as the Brightness, a belief that their current life is but one in a series, and that upon death they are reincarnated as another creature. Searching for one’s Brightness — a beautiful, ecstatic moment of enlightenment
leading them to a higher destiny — is a common goal in their wanderings.
I'd missed that the Brightness wasn't exclusive to the Vourinoi, but rather a broader elven belief system; between them and the Rivethun dwarves, I always appreciate seeing novel spirituality among core Ancestries beyond just deity worship.
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I hadn't the faintest! Here's the relevant LOCG excerpt (one of three paragraphs that the Vourinoi get):
I'd missed that the Brightness wasn't exclusive to the Vourinoi, but rather a broader elven belief system; between them and the Rivethun dwarves, I always appreciate seeing novel spirituality among core Ancestries beyond just deity worship.Vourinoi have a loose relationship with gender, and many exist
outside of binary gender or move among genders as their feelings
take them, an identity they refer to as kala-shei, or, “the dance.” Many Vourinoi also believe in the elven philosophy known as the Brightness, a belief that their current life is but one in a series, and that upon death they are reincarnated as another creature. Searching for one’s Brightness — a beautiful, ecstatic moment of enlightenment
leading them to a higher destiny — is a common goal in their wanderings.
See the Brightness Seeker prestige class for more on this.
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It's never going to happen, but I truly wish Osirion could use the Egyptian names for their gods, rather than the Greek ones. Alas, as the country isn't named "Azarion/Wesirion," I'm just going to quietly change it for my home group.
C'mon - isn't Djehuti more fun to say than Thoth?
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It's never going to happen, but I truly wish Osirion could use the Egyptian names for their gods, rather than the Greek ones. Alas, as the country isn't named "Azarion/Wesirion," I'm just going to quietly change it for my home group.
C'mon - isn't Djehuti more fun to say than Thoth?
I actually pieced together what the equivalent of Osirion in Middle Egyptian would have been, and it renders as something like wsirt, or Ousiret - Land of Osiris. In the same way that the Egyptian gods are known by their Greek names, I settled on most things being known by the Taldan versions, being the regional trade language, with modern Osiriani heavily influenced by it and more traditional renderings available to players who know Ancient Osiriani.
On the subject of religion, something that occurred to me is that a Golden Road book could really do some interesting things with the Sarenites, and looking at just how the Cult of the Dawnflower really differs from the orthodoxy of Qadira and Kelesh. It was clearly meant to homage the Middle-East and North Africa's history of religious sectarianism, but leaning too hard on the jihad elements with the Oath Wars. At the moment, that really seems to be the only difference between the two - the mainstream church of Sarenrae in Qadira and Kelesh are less willing to get their hands dirty, but the Cult of the Dawnflower overcompensate and devastated an entire region with sectarian violence. Fleshing it out would make them feel more like their own things, and less tropey.
I like to think of traditional Sarenites as more akin to Persian Zoroastrianism, with their own ancient traditions and stories and orthodoxy, while the more radical Cult of the Dawnflower pitches closer to the more mystical hermetic elements of Sufism, looking at the ways Sarenrae engages with her worshippers directly and achieving a higher state of consciousness of the world through communing with her and enacting her will. Dawnflower cultists are more willing to reexamine and reinterpret things and adopt new ways and styles and leave older modes, but the orthodox school draw strength from the wisdom of history and an ancient legacy, and resent criticism of it. Heck, the wider Padishah Empire could have various different skeins of Sarenites who interpret her in different ways - we know she was worshipped by Ninshabur, that there are surviving Ninshaburrians across the empire and in Ezida, and her celestial realm is called High Ninshabur.
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On the subject of religion, something that occurred to me is that a Golden Road book could really do some interesting things with the Sarenites, and looking at just how the Cult of the Dawnflower really differs from the orthodoxy of Qadira and Kelesh. It was clearly meant to homage the Middle-East and North Africa's history of religious sectarianism, but leaning too hard on the jihad elements with the Oath Wars. At the moment, that really seems to be the only difference between the two - the mainstream church of Sarenrae in Qadira and Kelesh are less willing to get their hands dirty, but the Cult of the Dawnflower overcompensate and devastated an entire region with sectarian violence. Fleshing it out would make them feel more like their own things, and less tropey.
-snip-
I think the Paizo party line on the Cult of the Dawnflower is that they've gone the way of Asmodean Paladins and don't properly fit into canon, as Goodly Sarenrae wouldn't empower a bunch of assassination-happy nationalist radicals. I would definitely be interested in seeing varied branches of Sarenite faith, with her 'softer' flock in splendid city temples and the more leathery faithful acting as wandering, often-militant dervishes, but I don't think there's any will within the writing team to rehabilitate the Cult.
Maybe someone can act as the divine patron for the obvious Inquisitor-assassin types of characters many expect to see in the Golden Road, but I don't know that a goddess of redemption is the right choice for that.
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On the subject of religion, something that occurred to me is that a Golden Road book could really do some interesting things with the Sarenites, and looking at just how the Cult of the Dawnflower really differs from the orthodoxy of Qadira and Kelesh.
There are Dev comments here on the forum and on Reddit that the Cult of Dawnflower is gone for good. From piecing together said comments is that apparently Sarenrae finally gave up on trying to subtly steer them away from extremism and just straight up appeared to all the Dawnflower Clerics and told them to give up their crusades because they had gone too far. Those who didn't fell and lost their powers.
Now there's story potential in fallen Dawnflower cultists becoming villains and seeking other sources of power, but the impression I got is that no one in the Paizo office wants to do anything with them at this time.
And this is why PF1 has the Vindictive Bastard Ex-Paladin archetype. For all those people that went too far but still want to keep the power set.
Although in PF2 they would probably just become a different champion type by worshiping a different deity (likely a deity of vengeance, anger, or similar).
The PF2 team has made it pretty clear that if you want to "go too far but keep the powers," you'll need a new source of power more in line with your current Alignment. Iomedae isn't going to support anybody doing a genocide any time soon, and Sarenrae isn't interested in coup-causing zealous assassins.
I do think there's a potential vein of neat stories surrounding Sarenite faith being seen as culturally Kelish in Osirion, contrasted against more traditional Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, and their ancient gods, but after thousands of years that might just be a moot point.
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I do think there's a potential vein of neat stories surrounding Sarenite faith being seen as culturally Kelish in Osirion, contrasted against more traditional Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, and their ancient gods, but after thousands of years that might just be a moot point.
I was actually thinking of the reverse, seeing the ways that Sarenrae, a goddess who was associated mostly with Casmaron, has put down roots and been embraced and interpreted in Northern Garund, and how that differs from her faith in Kelesh. With the decision to stop using the Cult of the Dawnflower, that might even create MORE opportunity to show the different ways that former cultists are trying to find their ways back to the light while still setting themselves apart culturally from the Qadiran mainstream, and how Qadiran Sarenites perceive their wayward brethren having their "come to Jesus" moment.
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{. . .}
And this is why PF1 has the Vindictive Bastard Ex-Paladin archetype. For all those people that went too far but still want to keep the power set.Although in PF2 they would probably just become a different champion type by worshiping a different deity (likely a deity of vengeance, anger, or similar).
So far they would have a problem that (at least for now) no Champion Tenet/Cause between Good and Evil is available.
I think Paizo may have overcorrected in matters of imperfections of Good faiths -- after all, at least in 1st Edition, Hell has a whole type of Devil devoted to creating Heresies (also see here. I could have sworn they used to exist in 2nd Edition, even having artwork, but now they seem to have disappeared from there . . . maybe that is not a coincidence.
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I'm not opposed to the Cult of the Dawnflower being extremists, I think showing that even worshippers of a Good deity can lose their way and cause harm in the world, is a good story element. I'm not even opposed to Sarenites being a way to homage Islamic faith and culture to represent them in a Fantasy Late Antiquity setting. I'm just not comfortable with them being an analogy for Islamic fundamentalist extremism, since that is an extremely sensitive topic too easy to reduce to tropes, and the way 1e did it could have been done with more sensitivity.
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They wouldn't necessarily have to be interpreted as an analog of Islamic Fundamentalists in particular, apart from the geographic similarity suggesting this. Earth has plenty of different denominations of religious extremists to choose from, even within the geographic regional analog.
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The problem, I think, is that is some people will draw that comparison anyway both because of the geographic location and the general trappings of Sarenrae's faithful (scimitars, head coverings, temples with minarets, etc.). There are unfortunately going to be some people who play the game who are just that superficial or who ignore the nuances that make Sarenrae different from a real-world religion.
Iomedae has the same problem, but with Catholicism.
I think historical precedent gives you an excuse if you want holy assassins in the region. I don't think that they should be the tools of a Good faith focused on redemption.
Invent some kind of empyreal lord or infernal duke who's a local patron of assassins, have a genie-run organization of hired killers, attach them to an ideology rather than faith... but the Cult of the Dawnflower isn't the right way to do it, any more than the Iomedean witch-hunter who puts whole villages to the torch. Hell, we know Achaekek's cult once called Rahadoum home in the time before the Oath Wars - maybe have a schismatic branch separate from the Red Mantis, or who've kept the methods but abandoned the devotion?
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The problem, I think, is that is some people will draw that comparison anyway both because of the geographic location and the general trappings of Sarenrae's faithful (scimitars, head coverings, temples with minarets, etc.). There are unfortunately going to be some people who play the game who are just that superficial or who ignore the nuances that make Sarenrae different from a real-world religion.
Exactly what I meant. If we knew ANYTHING about the Cult of the Dawnflower other than that to it, it might be another matter. But right now, all players and DMs have to go on are the entirely logical conclusions they have to conclude with what they are presented. I don't even think you need to scrap the CotD entirely, but at the very least some work into how they set their ethos and acts apart would give more context to avoid those unfortunate implications.
As for what would replace the Cult of the Dawnflower across the region, I could see something in Osirion and Thuvia formalising but still setting itself apart from the Qadiran church and Keleshite culture, a more informal mysticism spreading through Katapesh and Nex, and as Keftiu mentioned there are plenty of other cults and faiths who would be happy to test the limits of Rahadoum's patience if Sarenrae is discouraging intervention. Some of the anti-Laws of Mortality missionaries and covert clerics might turn to Ragathiel, General of Vengeance, who has a preexisting history of struggling against his own baser impulses and possibly being manipulated by more powerful evil beings like when he destroyed Typhon. There might be a better fit. Some of the Monitors might resent their influence being unwelcome.
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In my particular version of Golarion the most well entrenched religion in Rahadoum is a Cult of Ng, which would puzzle the Pure Legion immensely if they were to be discovered as they appear to have no agenda, plan, or pattern of behavior whatsoever and "desert nomads" are just a normal thing in Rahadoum. Their operational security is incredible since "never let anybody know what you're actually about" is a holy tenet of Ngians.
The most pernicious religious threat to Rahadoum is naturally "a religious practice no one could possibly object to."
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I just so badly want to see stories about the troubles Rahadoum is facing (desertification, divs, alghollthu manipulation) rather than exclusively beating the drum of the atheism theme, much like how I want better for Thuvia and Osirion. It's one plot beat of many, a single color in the palette - other things happen there than the repression of poor innocent faithful and the crushing of deranged cultists.
Show me the Occularium's brilliant scholars of magic! I want to know what's up with the Vahird dwarves and their magic oasis! There's thousands of years of history here, from Jistkan artifice to ancient temples of Achaekek. Brass dragons supposedly help the Rahadoumi state with their environmental struggles, alongside hired druids. There's so much to do here beyond what Rahadoum has largely gotten to be in print.
Part of the reason I've recently been cheerleading for more Shamans and spirit stuff is that the setting's overwhelming belief system being, essentially, one enormous shared polytheistic pantheon... is a little boring! I love the gods, but there should be a place in the setting for people who don't without them being fools or villains, and that's why I get a little defensive about Rahadoum so largely being used as an anti-religion cudgel.
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Regarding Sarenrae, please remember she is not just the goddess of redemption, but a goddess of fire and a goddess who preaches the swift end to anything that wont repent.
Sarenrae is literally a goddess of redemption because direct, hasty, violent action caused the single greatest regret of her life. The restraint to avoid another Pit of Gormuz situation is a core pillar of her faith.
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Again, I think the biggest problem is that we only have the extremely superficial way it looks. I can respect them preferring to drop them, but there are ways Paizo could make the Cult of the Dawnflower interesting and reel them back from the impression of being a riff on Jihadis, without actually removing them. The issue arises when that's ALL we know about them.
Kinda the same issue in reverse with Rahadoum. When all we really know about Rahadoum is that they hate gods, without the layers of history and culture and nuance that would otherwise texture the place, then it's understandable that element being talked about to the exclusion of others starts to rankle or gets exaggerated. I'd love to find out about their magical traditions - having ousted the clerics long ago, and with druids only reluctantly tolerated, how do they solve the issue of ambient necromantic energy building up, which is normally solved by priestly rituals? Are there teams of wizards and druids working together to try to reverse the desertification, reluctantly exchanging tips with the Sarenrae-worshipping Qadirans who face the same problem? How are those ruins full of Jistkan automata doing, anything interesting climb out of it to try and bring death to the Osiriani invaders and leaving Rahadoum extremely embarrassed when a fifty foot clockwork dragon lumbers across the border to attack Merab and gets utterly punked by Thuvian alchemical bombs? With Cheliax's waning fortunes, has Rahadoum been profiting from an increased share of the trade along its coast to and from Ilizmagorti and Vidrian, or contesting control of the Arch of Aroden?
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Having just started the Impossible Lands book (only briefly skimmed it for references to Osirion so far), I'm intrigued by the inclusion of prehistoric cultures. I noticed it with Druma's history, and its continuance for Nex and Geb is a nice continuation. It would be interesting to actually look at the four clans that Azghaad united, in the same way the predynastic cultures of Egypt would influence the proto- and early dynastic Egyptian culture as it coalesced, perhaps even with rival versions of how it happened - in one version it's Azghaad who smites the Unholy First, in another it's a pre-ascension Nethys who leaves Azghaad to actually found Sothis. Maybe an apocryphal account that Ulunat was actually already dead when both hit the scene, and they just turned his corpse to his advantage? I like having a certain level of unclarity when it comes to ancient history to work with.
It also reminds me again that we really don't know who was living in Katapesh before the Ancient Osiriani conquered it - there are half-orcs aplenty in the region, and gnolls are ubiquitous, and someone must have been there in enough force to justify the armies, but we don't really have names. Katapesh isn't even the place's original name, that was appropriated from its capital city.
I'm also really interested in the apparent separation the book draws between Osirian and Garundi, since previously Osiriani were a subgroup of Garundi. And the close relationship between the Dunguni dwarves and the Ancient Osirians makes me wonder if maybe there's more to the Pahmet's belief in a Dwarf Pharaoh than mere tradition and folklore. There's no mention of Bastet, but they have a certain fondness for cats that I find compelling.
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Playing a Pahmet Animal Barbarian in PFS, I decided that the heavy armor he wears is in a stylized humanoid shape with an animal's head (the helmet) and that it is the traditional look for Pahmet's armors. Any link with the original Osiriani pantheon is left undisclosed.
Not sure if it contradicts any canon info though.
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Yeah, I'm glad the book covered some of the region's pre-Osirion history, I had been curious about that.
I'm also really interested in the apparent separation the book draws between Osirian and Garundi, since previously Osiriani were a subgroup of Garundi.
I think that might've been a mistake, since all the mentions of Osirian(i) are of the nationality or language except the Alkenstar page, the only one to list "Garundi" and "Osiriani" separately. The Geb section also refers to Gebbites as being of Osiriani descent.
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Playing a Pahmet Animal Barbarian in PFS, I decided that the heavy armor he wears is in a stylized humanoid shape with an animal's head (the helmet) and that it is the traditional look for Pahmet's armors. Any link with the original Osiriani pantheon is left undisclosed.
Not sure if it contradicts any canon info though.
Assassin’s Creed: Origins, the Ptolemaic Egypt one, had a gorgeous set of ceremonial Sekhmeti heavy armor that you might want to look at.
I’m quite fond of the Donguni ties to Osirion and just broadly how great they and the Kulenett feel! I’ve never been a fan of fantasy dwarves, and yet the PF2 team consistently makes them feel like some of the coolest folk in Garund. Fingers crossed for Highhelm to do the same for their northern kin!
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Something else occurs that would be interesting to see - the Golden Road's halflings. As I understand, halflings are rare in Qadira and were largely imported Chelaxian halflings, but there are still halfling communities across the Padishah Empire. Abd there are the Jarrics of the Barrier Wall. Osirion, a major slaveholding nation in its past, has a significant population of halflings who are the descendants of enslaved people. How has the intermingling of different halfling cultures and ethnicities affected Osirion's halflings, and how have they been faring after the Laws of Equitable Use ended hereditary bondage and starved chattel slavery? How integrated are halflings in Osiriani cities, or do they have their own cultural enclaves since they have unique physical needs for their dwellings that humans don't? Do urban Osiriani halflings have much in common with the local Jarrics or is there a cultural barrier?
And the same could be said of the various Elemental clans who roam the deserts. We know a little about some of them, like the Goanron Triumvirate and the Ainsi, but the byzantine politics of desert Elementals - not just genie-kin, but proper Elementals - would be fascinating to learn more about, and you could get a few more genie-kin feats out of it tailored to the region. It would especially be nice to see these clans have genie-kin members, since Osirion was noted as a place where genie-kin facing prejudice in Qadira managed to find acceptance and gave rise to true genies born in the region. And one of the potential encounters of Book 4 of Mummy's Mask includes a brief exploration of the Efreeti citadel Takutibakr which buried by a Djinni sandstorm, which suggests that elementals had a significant presence in the area long before humans made their mark, perhaps going back to prehistoric times.
What did what is now Northern Garund look like during the Age of Serpents, or even the Age of Legends? The formation of the Glazen Sheets suggests something dramatic fell to turn it into desert that wasn't necessarily Earthfall-related that the dragon Susurex is interested in, and lizardfolk cultural memory remembers when it was lush and green, but Osiriani myth also claims that Osiris, Set and Horus directly ruled humanity before they left matters to mortal Pharaohs (in contrast to Nethysian doctrine, which claims it was Nethys who legitimised the first Pharaoh, Azghaad) before leaving for their divine realms after Horus defeated Set. Again, I think it would really be worth looking at different garundi sub-groups, especially the Yerbira, to show how the region isn't a monolith dominated by Osirion's cultural legacy but that there were already divergences before Jistka and Osirion rose.
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Something else occurs that would be interesting to see - the Golden Road's halflings. -snip-
This is something I'm fascinated by as well. Are the Halfling slaves of old Osirion Jarics and Nearics, or some other people now lost to history? Heck, it might be the case that there's a unique Osirian Halfling ethnicity, folk who've been in the cities for so many generations they've become a wholly distinct culture.
Again, I think it would really be worth looking at different garundi sub-groups, especially the Yerbira, to show how the region isn't a monolith dominated by Osirion's cultural legacy but that there were already divergences before Jistka and Osirion rose.
I'd be all over the Garundi getting some more detail! The Yerbira could definitely use some further detailing, and this might also be an interesting place to explore just what, exactly, the deal is with the Mauxi Mwangi people. I'd love to see some legacy not just of Ancient Osirion and the Jistka Imperium shine through, but also the Tekritanin League - seemingly ancestors of today's nomadic Garundi, but more unified despite their nomadic living, noted for alchemy, diplomacy, and their ability to ally with beasts. How does that wisdom live on today?
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This is something I'm fascinated by as well. Are the Halfling slaves of old Osirion Jarics and Nearics, or some other people now lost to history? Heck, it might be the case that there's a unique Osirian Halfling ethnicity, folk who've been in the cities for so many generations they've become a wholly distinct culture.
Just based on geopolitics, and the fact that it's easier to buy from old Taldor and (after the civil war) Cheliax, I would expect most of Osirion's halflings to be mostly Chelaxians but with a bit of Jaric mixed in, with a mixture of traditions from both they maintain despite integrating into human cities. I don't know if that would count as an entirely separate ethnic group though. I do like the idea of Bes being popular, since he's a fairly genial figure and typically depicted as a short humanoid. My homebrew writeup of An (because there hasn't been one canonically) includes a halfling priest of Ptah as patron of craftsmen, who was also depicted in dwarf aspect sometimes.
I'd be all over the Garundi getting some more detail! The Yerbira could definitely use some further detailing, and this might also be an interesting place to explore just what, exactly, the deal is with the Mauxi Mwangi people. I'd love to see some legacy not just of Ancient Osirion and the Jistka Imperium shine through, but also the Tekritanin League - seemingly ancestors of today's nomadic Garundi, but more unified despite their nomadic living, noted for alchemy, diplomacy, and their ability to ally with beasts. How does that wisdom live on today?
We've both discussed the Yerbira earlier in the thread, broadly agreeing, though my interpretation of the Mauxi is that, based on some of their descriptions in Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse, they're slightly influenced by the real-life Nubians, being a darker-skinned ethnic group from further south but heavily influenced by Egyptian culture and who adopted and built Egyptian pyramids, hieroglyphs and temples. The map of Ancient Osirion at its peak in Legacy of Pharaohs shows they inherited territory in the northern Mwangi Expanse when they conquered JIstka, and the idea of Osiriani-style elongated pyramids build by Mauxi juxtaposed with the lush jungle is an intriguing one, though if that was going to happen it would have been in LO:ME.
We know their leader claims descent from a Pharaoh, they continue to practice Osiriani traditions and customs and worship Osiriani gods, and there's the tantalisingly intriguing mention of the elephant worshippers which would be really neat to see expanded on - does any trace of that practice last in Osirion, which doesn't have a lot of elephants anymore due to the environment. Is their king based in Thuvia, and does he claim territory or is it more of a cultural title? And were there Mauxi or Yerbira dynasties who ruled Ancient Osirion for significant periods of time, the same way Libyan and Nubian dynasties ruled Egypt at different times?
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Where can I read about the leader of the Mauxi? That's new lore to me, but I agree that the idea of casting them in parallel to the Nubians of Dynastic Egypt is a smart pull. A Mauxi group filling the role of Medjay would be a real treat.
The notion that Ancient Osirion may have had both dwarf and Mauxi pharaohs is interesting. I like it, because it makes the old empire more interesting, but also because it suggests that a revisionist history took place - perhaps to rally Osirian Garundi patriotism after falling under foreign Kelesh rule? You could do a really fun low-stakes Adventure or AP about proving such a pharaoh existed, or maybe a short Society storyline. Seeing how Khemet III handled such a thing would help me understand him better.
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I tend to see Nex/Geb as the Nubia-equivalent of Golarion with Mauxi more akin to the peoples of the Sahara; the feminine and masculine names suggested for them in Mwangi Expanse are all of Amazigh ("Berber") origin, although the gender-neutral names come from the Ge'ez language all the way in Ethiopia so that confuses things a bit.
Personally one of my hopes for a Golden Road book would be a more detailed look at Mauxi culture that goes past just the "Mwangi vs. Garundi influence" thing; maybe I'm just paranoid, but it sometimes feels a bit like an awkward attempt at paralleling real-world racial tensions, and if so would be rather reductive as-is and could use some added nuance.
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I tend to see Nex/Geb as the Nubia-equivalent of Golarion with Mauxi more akin to the peoples of the Sahara; the feminine and masculine names suggested for them in Mwangi Expanse are all of Amazigh ("Berber") origin, although the gender-neutral names come from the Ge'ez language all the way in Ethiopia so that confuses things a bit.
Personally one of my hopes for a Golden Road book would be a more detailed look at Mauxi culture that goes past just the "Mwangi vs. Garundi influence" thing; maybe I'm just paranoid, but it sometimes feels a bit like an awkward attempt at paralleling real-world racial tensions, and if so would be rather reductive as-is and could use some added nuance.
Yeah, I personally care less about their tension around ethnic identity , and more about how their adopted Garundi elements manifest and meld with their Mwangi beliefs. "Mauxi have taken to naming their firearms, believing each to hold a small spirit that grows with years of use" is more usable at the table than "many Mauxi don't want to be identified as a Mwangi people."
(To be clear: that gun lore was made up on the spot and is not canon!)
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Where can I read about the leader of the Mauxi? That's new lore to me, but I agree that the idea of casting them in parallel to the Nubians of Dynastic Egypt is a smart pull. A Mauxi group filling the role of Medjay would be a real treat.
It's a little blink-and-you'll-miss-it.
Mauxi government is a monarchy strictly ruled by a family said to be distantly tied to Osirion royalty, and many political decisions tend to take into account the needs and wills of the gods, which provides another source of generational strife.
But the existence of a Mauxi royal family implies the existence of a Mauxi kingdom, even if it's one with no set borders or official recognition. Which is a very interesting idea, but not really dealt with in LO:MW.
And while I'd love a Medjay counterpart, I think the Risen Guard already partly fills that niche, at least in terms of the low enforcement role they played, but we actually don't know where they came from - they don't seem to have been in Ancient Osirion, and are unlikely to be a holdover from the Keleshites. Perhaps they started as a Yerbira or Mauxi clan who pledged their lives to defend the Pharaoh, and over time have been added to?
The notion that Ancient Osirion may have had both dwarf and Mauxi pharaohs is interesting. I like it, because it makes the old empire more interesting, but also because it suggests that a revisionist history took place - perhaps to rally Osirian Garundi patriotism after falling under foreign Kelesh rule?
For a region with such an ancient past, there is no real comprehensive king list, even in-universe, either due to Keleshite damage or due to the Pharaohs themselves usurping the deeds, monuments and titles of predecessors. One victim of damnatio memoriae is a major story element of Mummy's Mask, whose reign was entirely erased and needs to be uncovered. There's a lot of room to flesh out new dynasties because so many of them were erased or forgotten to time. You get a lot of things like Azghaad being called Azghaad I implying other Azghaads, Hakotep I implying other Hakoteps, Gebessek IX implying at least eight other Gebesseks, Remesses IV implying at least four other Remesses, and so on. Some dynasties, like the Apsu or Yahefa dynasties, may have had many kings but are only mentioned with that single name. You could have Yerbira, Mauxi, Dwarves, even Vourinoi elves on the throne, and the only thing that would change is the elemental pacts since they seem to be dependent on Azghaad's bloodline (failing when the last Menedes was toppled, and springing back into effect when Khemet I took the throne) which pure-blooded Dwarves and Elves wouldn't have. That doesn't preclude Yerbira or Mauxi intermarrying into the Osiriani familes and then promoting their non-Osiriani relatives, as seems to have happened in Egypt multiple times. I doubt Khemet would mind, as long as he can still trace his own ancestry back to Azghaad.
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Where can I read about the leader of the Mauxi? That's new lore to me, but I agree that the idea of casting them in parallel to the Nubians of Dynastic Egypt is a smart pull. A Mauxi group filling the role of Medjay would be a real treat.It's a little blink-and-you'll-miss-it.
Mauxi government is a monarchy strictly ruled by a family said to be distantly tied to Osirion royalty, and many political decisions tend to take into account the needs and wills of the gods, which provides another source of generational strife.But the existence of a Mauxi royal family implies the existence of a Mauxi kingdom, even if it's one with no set borders or official recognition. Which is a very interesting idea, but not really dealt with in LO:MW.
Awesome, thank you! I love that touch. "Accompany a delegation from the Ruby Prince's court who are visiting the Mauxi monarch, and make sure nothing goes wrong" sounds like a delightful set-up for a scenario. I'm thinking of something similar to how Zulu kings are still appointed within South Africa, but hopefully with a more equal share of power than that.
Deeply curious which gods those Mauxi invoke for their aid in statecraft - the traditional deities of the region (Desna, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, Sarenrae), the Ancient Osirian pantheon (Anpu, Bast, Het-Heru, Sekhmet, and pals), or perhaps an entirely separate/syncretic Mauxi tradition?
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Awesome, thank you! I love that touch. "Accompany a delegation from the Ruby Prince's court who are visiting the Mauxi monarch, and make sure nothing goes wrong" sounds like a delightful set-up for a scenario. I'm thinking of something similar to how Zulu kings are still appointed within South Africa, but hopefully with a more equal share of power than that.
New Zealand has the Kingitana Movement, the Maori King, who is more of a CEO position with a tribal board of directors who oversees Maori (specifically Tainui and the other tribes who acknowledge it) land and Maori advocacy with no constitutional authority. With the Mauxi being a nomadic people, I could see their monarchy working in a similar way with little political power but cultural and ceremonial importance.
Deeply curious which gods those Mauxi invoke for their aid in statecraft - the traditional deities of the region (Desna, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, Sarenrae), the Ancient Osirian pantheon (Anpu, Bast, Het-Heru, Sekhmet, and pals), or perhaps an entirely separate/syncretic Mauxi tradition?
If I was writing something, it would be a mixture of Osiriani gods in their animal aspects, and some of the new Mwangi gods 2e introduces. The real-life Nubians adopted gods like Amun and syncretised them with their own gods like Apedemak, depicting them in Egyptian style. I could see the Mauxi doing the same thing, and it makes the Osiriani pantheon feel less isolated or Osirion-specific. Maybe include Sarenrae as a dove, Abadar as the two-headed eagle, Nethys as a zebra and Pharasma as a whipoorwhill?
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I tend to see Nex/Geb as the Nubia-equivalent of Golarion with Mauxi more akin to the peoples of the Sahara; the feminine and masculine names suggested for them in Mwangi Expanse are all of Amazigh ("Berber") origin, although the gender-neutral names come from the Ge'ez language all the way in Ethiopia so that confuses things a bit.
Nex and Geb might be physically closer to where the real-life Nubia was in relation to the real-life Egypt, but I see them as a better analogue for Egypts empire - Canaan, Syria, the Mitanni and its other tributary states. There's no clear analogue to the Hittites as regional rival, except maybe Holomog, but the history of conquest and colonisation followed by breaking away to do their own thing, is the closest thing other than Thuvia and Rahadoum. The Mauxi might have traditionally Berber names, but the way they relate to Osirion seems very different to how Libyans related to Egypt.
Of course, being a fantasy setting parallels aren't and shouldn't be 1:1. Making the Mauxi just Fantasy-Nubia would be as reductive as what they were before. But it's a way to reframe them and set them apart from other Mwangi and Garundi.
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Where can I read about the leader of the Mauxi? That's new lore to me, but I agree that the idea of casting them in parallel to the Nubians of Dynastic Egypt is a smart pull. A Mauxi group filling the role of Medjay would be a real treat.It's a little blink-and-you'll-miss-it.
Mauxi government is a monarchy strictly ruled by a family said to be distantly tied to Osirion royalty, and many political decisions tend to take into account the needs and wills of the gods, which provides another source of generational strife.But the existence of a Mauxi royal family implies the existence of a Mauxi kingdom, even if it's one with no set borders or official recognition. Which is a very interesting idea, but not really dealt with in LO:MW.Awesome, thank you! I love that touch. "Accompany a delegation from the Ruby Prince's court who are visiting the Mauxi monarch, and make sure nothing goes wrong" sounds like a delightful set-up for a scenario. I'm thinking of something similar to how Zulu kings are still appointed within South Africa, but hopefully with a more equal share of power than that.
Deeply curious which gods those Mauxi invoke for their aid in statecraft - the traditional deities of the region (Desna, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, Sarenrae), the Ancient Osirian pantheon (Anpu, Bast, Het-Heru, Sekhmet, and pals), or perhaps an entirely separate/syncretic Mauxi tradition?
I'll have to check my PDF but I think the book implies they worship both to some extent.
I agree it's likely a "traditional subnational monarchy" situation; there are lots of examples of that one could look to for inspiration (the Alaafin of Oyo in Nigeria and the Asantehene in Ghana come to mind)
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Ah, yep.
"Mauxi people tend to be highly religious and worship the gods within the Osirion pantheon, but they also worship gods from other cultures, primarily Abadar, Nethys, Pharasma, and Sarenrae"
- from Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse
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{. . .}
What did what is now Northern Garund look like during the Age of Serpents, or even the Age of Legends? The formation of the Glazen Sheets suggests something dramatic fell to turn it into desert that wasn't necessarily Earthfall-related that the dragon Susurex is interested in, and lizardfolk cultural memory remembers when it was lush and green {. . .}
This could be just due to where Northern Garund is -- parts of Earth's Sahara were lush and green a few thousand years ago:
{. . .} For several hundred thousand years, the Sahara has alternated between desert and savanna grassland in a 20,000-year cycle[8] caused by the precession of Earth's axis as it rotates around the Sun, which changes the location of the North African monsoon. {. . .}
Presumably Golarion has the same phenomenon. And then the Glazen Sheet sounds like an area that was flooded with seawater for a while with considerable growth of carbonate-shelled algae (to deposit chalky limestone) and then had the seawater evaporate (to deposit salt). So then whatever big happened (mentioned above) is whatever accelerated those changes from sea area to land area.
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This could be just due to where Northern Garund is -- parts of Earth's Sahara were lush and green a few thousand years ago
The original Osirion: Land of Pharaohs from 3.5 calls the crystal formations of the Glazen Sheets "evaporated riverbeds and powder-fine alluvial salts" and suggests that the drying out of northern Garund might "it might stem from the impact of the Starstone." but the updated and expanded Legacy of Pharaohs describes it explicitly as glass.
The Glazen Sheets shine in the sun, a series of broken glass mesas and plains, some shattered into fine granules and others consisting of unending, mirror-sheened planes. The area is inimical to practically all life, but this was not always the case, as bones and shells embedded in the thick sheets of glass suggest that something lived here before the region was transformed from sand into patches of shimmering glass. What could have caused such a transformation remains a mystery.
Which suggest to me that it's the result of some meteoric impact, possibly Starstone-related but possible not. It's in keeping with the setting - a very famous dagger found in the tomb of Tutankhamun was made with meteoric iron that may have landed in the Libyan desert and was crafted by near-eastern smiths more used to working with iron. And if the Glazen Sheets had been made by something as mundane as climate change, I'm not sure Susurex would be interested in it.
Regardless of how long ago Northern Garund changed or why, it would still be interesting to see its prehistory explored, particularly the way ancient Garundi migrating north from their ancestral homelands in South Garund affected the Iruxi who already lived in the region, and displaced them as the marshes and swamps gave was to first grassland, then to scrubland, then to desert. While those events are entirely out of written human history, Iruxi have much longer cultural memories. It would be neat if Osiriani archaeology wasn't just the tombs and temples of Ancient Osirion, but also prehistoric Garundi graveyards and Iruxi stone circles build alongside long-dried up rivers, or distinctly orc or catfolk-made beads that might date when their ancestors arrived in the region, etc.
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LO:IL has an interesting note in a sidebar that seems to build on the changes to Katapesh hinted at by the Travel Guide, as Okeno - famously a hub of Gnoll slavers in 1e - is mentioned as a home for pirates raiding the Obari Crossing (Impossible Lands/Katapesh naval trade route).
There’s an implicit narrative there: with the Pactmasters banning the slave trade (and perhaps the Qadiran satrap’s wife getting her abolitionist way), Okeno’s business dried up, driving them instead into piracy. It’s a smart change, and lets them stay bad guys for both Andoren privateers and Golden Road Firebrands. Plus - Gnoll pirates!
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I've always thought it was a bit odd that Osirion allowed Katapesh to keep Okeno. For a nation so concerned with not being conquered again, Okeno seems like an entirely logical logistical base that I would have thought Osirion would have wanted to keep or retake, before Qadira dealt with it. IIRC, it's not even as if it paid the Pactmasters much lip service. Though I suppose that proximity to Qadira might be what stopped them retaking it?
I do love the idea of gnoll pirates sailing the Obari and Inner Sea, and I think the maritime shipping situation of the Golden Road could definitely provide some really cool plot hooks. Given how much traffic sets out from Katapesh first to Jalmeray and then on to Iblydos, that might be the most information we get on the archipelago until Paizo figure out a 2e Mythic Adventures.