UnArcaneElection |
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The Raven Black wrote:I really wish the Black-blooded Oracle was back in PF2.It, or something like it, will probably show up if/when we are exploring the Darklands.
I wish an awful lot of PF1 Oracle options were back in PF2. (Same goes for Witch, but I hear that's getting a rework in PF2.5 PF2 Remastered, so maybe even the developers saw that they had hosed things too far.)
keftiu |
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It came up elsewhere: we can assume Qadira has abolished mortal slavery, right?
LO: Firebrands has both Cheliax and Katapesh outlawing the practice, and LO: Legends before that had the Shahiyan of Qadira as an outspoken abolitionist. What the former book does describe as works to liberate genies from binding, which suggests to me that it's been the cause local radicals have seized onto as a next step, but it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere.
Asked and answered on the Events Discord during PaizoCon - yes, slavery is out in Qadira. I also know PFS has an ongoing storyline fighting against genie-binding in the nation.
That frees the Golden Road up to me so much more! Here are ancient ruins from titans of arcane and scientific understanding, visitors from other planets and planes, several distinct varieties of alien horrors, ecological threats, merchant caravan-running, old religious feuds, psychics, sphinxes… here’s hoping it gets the same love that the Mwangi has, ideally a year or two after Arcadia :p
Kholo moving into Core 2 gives me a lot of hope for the future.
Morhek |
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With slavery out across the Golden Road, and significant changes coming to the Darklands due to OGL shenaniganry, I'm curious how they'll handle Nemret Noktoria. Previously, they had a standing arrangement where Osirion kept them supplied to maintain trade ties, supplemented with chattel from Geb, in exchange for while they stayed below-ground and focussed on stomping out House Shraen. I imagine Osirion wasn't happy about sending even the few slaves it permitted, mostly criminals, to such an unpleasant fate, but buying peace might have been worth it. But if they're not allowing slavery at all anymore, there might be some tensions with the subterranean ghoul kingdom.
On the other hand, Osirion has been building up its military forces for a long time now, with no apparent intended enemy - a story where Osirion declares war on the ghouls could be an interesting one, though would have to overcome the Ruby Prince's longrunning insular foreign policy. And if Osirion DID want to pick a fight with someone to improve their international standing and prestige and bolster their internal security, without making its neighbours fear the second coming of the Ancient Osiriani empire, you could pick more problematic targets than the ghoul kingdom sitting right beneath them. Though I doubt Kortash Khain would be any kind of pushover.
keftiu |
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It’s a shame that I think Tar-Baphon has a monopoly on likely undead APs in the future, because I’d gladly take up a khopesh against Nemret Noktoria in the Ruby Prince’s name! That sounds like straightforward pulpy fun - much like what I understand the appeal of Mummy’s Mask to have been.
Hell, it might work better as a standalone high-level adventure!
Morhek |
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It probably wouldn't take much effort to convert Mummy's Mask to be about Kortash Khain. Instead of unravelling the mystery of a Sky Pharaoh, you face the underground depredations of a Priest-King. There's even a sinkhole leading to and from the Darklands in Wati itself, where the adventure starts.
I could perhaps see Tar-Baphon reaching out to various powers across the Inner Sea. From memory, Geb has no more interest in his crusade against the living than the living do, and I doubt Walkena does either, but losing a steady food source might make the ghouls more amenable to supplying Tar-Baphon's efforts in the Gravelands through underground routes not easily accessible to humans, though orcs and dwarves might have some luck ferreting out their supply tunnels. And if Nemret Noktoria got involved with Tar-Baphon's business, that would certainly threaten Osirion - the Ruby Prince has stayed as from getting Osirion involved in any of the region's war as possible, but bringing Tar-Baphon's war to his shores might royally tick off Khemet III enough.
In fact, there are a number of Darklands plots that could involve Osirion. As I said, Wati has a sinkhole that leads down, which has allowed many Darklands beings to inhabit the Dead City, including a friendly Crystal Dragon and clans of Caligni who are e mostly ambivalent about humanity. The Pyramid of Kamaria leads down to a subterranean chamber and is still inhabited by Guggite cultists, and IIRC 1e lore suggested a curious but unexplained similarity between the architecture of what became the city of Shraen ruled by Drow liches (though with throw being deemphasised, Shraen might be getting a new ruler by the name of Kortash Khain if it still exists at all).
And if we're heading underground, you could bring in the Pahmet who, despite being surface-dwellers for the most part, have long associations with the rock-cut tombs of the southern border and might have more presence underground. I've always liked to imagine Eto as a sleepy little town on the surface to the casual viewer and to t travellers who watch the few dwarves scuttle about mistrustfully as they stop through, but to locals and a trusted few outsiders a bustling underground community carved out of the dense rock used for tomb construction. The image I get, for some reason, is Faye's Underground Home from South Australia, which aren't exactly underground but are cut out of the rock, and is the spitting image of a beautiful Pahmet house in my mind.
PossibleCabbage |
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It’s a shame that I think Tar-Baphon has a monopoly on likely undead APs in the future, because I’d gladly take up a khopesh against Nemret Noktoria in the Ruby Prince’s name! That sounds like straightforward pulpy fun - much like what I understand the appeal of Mummy’s Mask to have been.
Hell, it might work better as a standalone high-level adventure!
I mean the two most obvious "undead focused" stories we had at the onset of PF2 was "What's TB's next move" and "Let's check in on Geb" with Arazni intersecting both stories potentially. It will have been over five years since the end of Tyrant's Grasp by the time we get to the end of the solicited APs, which is more than enough time for a Lich to reform.
So I'd like to see them touch back on that story before too long. It doesn't have to be a conclusion, but something like "the middle leg of the Runelords trilogy" is about to start feeling overdue.
keftiu |
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I mean the two most obvious "undead focused" stories we had at the onset of PF2 was "What's TB's next move" and "Let's check in on Geb" with Arazni intersecting both stories potentially. It will have been over five years since the end of Tyrant's Grasp by the time we get to the end of the solicited APs, which is more than enough time for a Lich to reform.
So I'd like to see them touch back on that story before too long. It doesn't have to be a conclusion, but something like "the middle leg of the Runelords trilogy" is about to start feeling overdue.
I think it’s telling that we’re hitting on some new-but-nostalgic Runelord beats soon; a check back in on the other big plotline with our Whispering friend can’t be much longer.
Plus, everybody loves Arazni, and we’re bound to poke our heads into her homeland again eventually.
…but if Anubis, Dranngvit, the Old Sun Gods, and Pharasma lent their strength to smacking down Kabriri’s favorite, that sure could be a lot of fun. Who’s on the Osirian Avengers?
UnArcaneElection |
It probably wouldn't take much effort to convert Mummy's Mask to be about Kortash Khain. Instead of unravelling the mystery of a Sky Pharaoh, you face the underground depredations of a Priest-King. There's even a sinkhole leading to and from the Darklands in Wati itself, where the adventure starts.
Why not both? Mummy's Mask as the prelude to another adventure, in which you find that Kortash Khain was pulling the strings of the Sky Pharoah?
I could perhaps see Tar-Baphon reaching out to various powers across the Inner Sea. From memory, Geb has no more interest in his crusade against the living than the living do, and I doubt Walkena does either, but losing a steady food source might make the ghouls more amenable to supplying Tar-Baphon's efforts in the Gravelands through underground routes not easily accessible to humans, though orcs and dwarves might have some luck ferreting out their supply tunnels. {. . .}
Some Undead might see Tar-Baphon as a threat rather than an ally. It might be possible for clever adventurers to exploit this . . . .
Morhek |
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The Whispering Way's ultimate goal is not only undead supremacy, but the extermination of the living. Ghouls in particular still need the living as a food source, so any alliance with Nemret Noktoria has to be a purely short-term affair. But there is a bunch of people down for fairly indiscriminate destruction that Tar-Baphon might consider a useful resource in Osirion - the many Rovagug cultists of the region who plague its deserts and ruins. I doubt Guggites are easy to wrangle, and even Tar-Baphon still wants something left to rule, so unchaining the Rough Beast is likely out of the question. But having people down to wreck the trappings of civilisation around his current domain, and who have the advantage of being alive to pass anti-undead warding spells, might be useful if Tar-Baphon makes his move, and the guggites might appreciate having the chance to strike a blow against decadent corrupt civilisation in places where their terror and message of cosmic reboot is yet unknown.
Morhek |
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As I understand, cults of Rovagug insist that their destruction is ultimately creative, that by smashing the old they allow new to come forth. The destruction of this universe ultimately leads to the birth of a new one, starting the cycle all over again. Otherwise, Rovagug doesn't really have much to offer philosophically other than an excuse to vandalise, and vandals don't really need a god for that. And the sheer amount of ancient stuff in Osirion a.) makes their depredations all the more heartbreaking when they are destroying the priceless history of a culture that has already struggled with imperial conquerors erasing it b.) attracts Guggites specifically because it's so old and irreplaceable. Rovagug's followers would have nodded with approval at the tearing down of the Library of Alexandria or the de-nosing of the Sphinx or any number of other real-life vandalisms of important works, and if the hinted involvement of Maefre Alonsyn the drow ghost cultist of Nyarlathotep is going to be deemphasised, since the drow are being dropped like a hot potato, then perhaps some cult of Rovagug could take their role as the true reason why Qadira invaded Osirion?
keftiu |
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I’ve had an idea.
Khari is recently returned to Rahadoumi hands after centuries as a territory of Cheliax. One can easily assume a brutal anti-religious crackdown to follow, and if this were 1e, that’s even what I’d expect…
…but 2e likes a little nuance. Rahadoum is desperate to be more than The Place Where Cops Kill You For Praying, and their experiments with druids show them trying to find the edges of the Laws of Mortality in the face of mortal needs. For all the ardent atheism, Rahadoum is an enlightened place.
What if Khari is an experiment, a semi-autonomous city within Rahadoum where the Laws are relaxed? The authorities likely have little desire (or manpower!) to occupy and police the city, but they could instead try to make it an appealing destination/containment zone for foreigners. Tax the hell put of them, try to pitch everybody on beefing with the gods, but mostly let the place run itself.
I’m saying that Rahadoum needs a Casablanca.
Evan Tarlton |
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I’ve had an idea.
Khari is recently returned to Rahadoumi hands after centuries as a territory of Cheliax. One can easily assume a brutal anti-religious crackdown to follow, and if this were 1e, that’s even what I’d expect…
…but 2e likes a little nuance. Rahadoum is desperate to be more than The Place Where Cops Kill You For Praying, and their experiments with druids show them trying to find the edges of the Laws of Mortality in the face of mortal needs. For all the ardent atheism, Rahadoum is an enlightened place.
What if Khari is an experiment, a semi-autonomous city within Rahadoum where the Laws are relaxed? The authorities likely have little desire (or manpower!) to occupy and police the city, but they could instead try to make it an appealing destination/containment zone for foreigners. Tax the hell put of them, try to pitch everybody on beefing with the gods, but mostly let the place run itself.
I’m saying that Rahadoum needs a Casablanca.
That could potentially work beautifully, or it could turn Khari into Rahadoum's Kintargo. Either way, I'm all for it.
keftiu |
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I do not see how the Laws could be relaxed without making the city a hotbed for religions of all stripes aiming to topple the Rahadoumi regime.
Makes for great stories, but, from the Rahadoumi government's point of view, it makes zero sense.
Do they have enough Pure Legion to occupy every street corner in the city? Do they want to treat a recently ‘liberated’ city like hostile enemy territory?
I think the Rahadoumi regime is smarter than to trade one crushing authoritarian hand for another, especially given that 2e writers have shown more moderation with the state.
The Raven Black |
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The Raven Black wrote:Does it have to be authoritarian ?Firebrands suggests it is, with members of the eponymous organization having been arrested but defending themselves with their nationalism, but the government nevertheless considering treating highly ideological groups like religions.
That definitely doesn't sound like the more moderated state Keftiu mentioned above. Pretty much the opposite actually.
CorvusMask |
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I mean, thing is that as much as people want Rahadoum to be atheism representation the nation, Rahadoum has for long time been "Religious persecution the country"
Being dogmatic and supremacists isolationists has kinda always been Rahadoums thing and I don't really like idea of softening them to be more reasonable when they have always been LN in the antagonistic way.
(that said I do like the idea for Khari)
Evan Tarlton |
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Loosening things up in Khari (and by extension the province of Kharijite) wouldn't necessarily be a sign of softening up. As keftiu said, the area has been Chelaxian for centuries and is culturally distinct from the rest of the nation. That will be the case for generations. A crackdown would be far more trouble than it's worth. It would stretch the Pure Legion to its limit, potentially aggravate some of their trading partners (the ones who are increasingly responsible for feeding the nation!), embolden existing internal dissent, and attract foreign troublemakers (chiefly the Firebrands, but I doubt they'd be the only ones). A lighter hand would be necessary, at least for now. One could argue that the smart move would be to let Kharijite decide its own fate entirely (it's certainly the moral move), but semiautonomy would accomplish much of that while still keeping the devils out.
The authorities would be well aware of the risks. The best-case situation for them would be for malcontents to just go there and not rock the boat, but that's not guaranteed. They would be on guard to stop something from starting, but they must also make sure they don't inadvertently set off the reaction they hope to prevent. Meanwhile, the hidden churches would have to adapt to their new enemy. They know how to play the game, but Rahadoum and Cheliax are very different. They need to get to know their new opponent. If both sides make a mistake at once, things could get ugly.
You know, this sounds like a great spot for an adventure or even an adventure path...
The Raven Black |
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I wonder if Cheliax negotiated a freedom for people in the area to worship Asmodeus as long as you don't try to proselitize exemption as part of relinquishing its control on Khari.
And other religions could ask for the same treatment.
Might be the best short-term policy for Rahadoum as far as Khari is concerned.
Morhek |
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Not having had a chance to read Firebrands yet, does anything in it contradict or render moot my idea that Rahadoum could and would hire a bunch of ex-Shackles pirates left without an income after Eleder became Vidrian and cut off the extortion payments to found their fledgeling navy? I still like that idea, a bunch of pirates having to Go Legit and the only place desperate enough to hire them being Rahadoum because it has so far to catch up, and having to adapt from deep water raiders to shallow water escorts. Plus, it nicely sets up a Cheliax/Rahadoum Rome/Carthage long term rivalry - the imperial diabolists versus the militant secularists.
Evan Tarlton |
I wonder if Cheliax negotiated a freedom for people in the area to worship Asmodeus as long as you don't try to proselitize exemption as part of relinquishing its control on Khari.
And other religions could ask for the same treatment.
Might be the best short-term policy for Rahadoum as far as Khari is concerned.
I doubt that they did. Cheliax doesn't typically ask for things, and it sounds like the taking was pretty quick. That said, I agree with the "tolerance" idea (and I'm deeply amused by remaining Asmodeans being in the same boat as the faiths they "tolerated," let alone the ones tried to oppress).
Not having had a chance to read Firebrands yet, does anything in it contradict or render moot my idea that Rahadoum could and would hire a bunch of ex-Shackles pirates left without an income after Eleder became Vidrian and cut off the extortion payments to found their fledgeling navy?
Not that I recall. It mostly talked about Cheliax in terms of the "abolition" of slavery. It does mention Rahadoum, but only in terms of how some philosophers have turned Firebrand over religious repression.
As a big fan of all the Moorish architecture in Andalusia, I wonder if Khari has some beautiful hybrid styles going on. What do Garundi or even Jistkan designs look like with an Asmodean imperial flair?
There would definitely be hybrid styles of architecture. The oldest buildings would be Rahadoumi, then a hybrid of Chelaxian and Rahadoumi architecture, then finally some Thrunish/Asmodean style buildings with varying degrees of hybridization.
zimmerwald1915 |
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As a big fan of all the Moorish architecture in Andalusia, I wonder if Khari has some beautiful hybrid styles going on. What do Garundi or even Jistkan designs look like with an Asmodean imperial flair?
Defaced and corrupted - Asmodean imperial architecture is an imposition with nothing of value to add and not a shred of validity, never mind "flair."
Perpdepog |
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As a big fan of all the Moorish architecture in Andalusia, I wonder if Khari has some beautiful hybrid styles going on. What do Garundi or even Jistkan designs look like with an Asmodean imperial flair?
I suspect pretty similar, only clad in black and red marble, and with more spikes. Cheliax takes its inspiration from Asmodeus and Hell, and, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett on Hellish architecture, "If you've got it, flaunt it, and if you haven't got it, flaunt it even harder."
Tropkagar |
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Finally, I read the discussions in the topic to express my opinion about this region. Well, let's start. (By the way, on my own note, I personally have no problems with the spread of slavery in this region. However, I would calmly see similar material in other regions of Golarion.)
Qadira: Probably the country I'm most looking forward to, but not because I'm interested in it in and of itself. I see Qadira as part of the Padishah-Empire of Kelesh. This means that this is at least some opportunity to get more information about this state. I am generally surprised that we still have no complete information about the largest, richest, and possibly the most developed state in the world. Seriously, why is that?
Osirion: I am a fan of the civilizations of the Ancient Near East. But with the exception of Ancient Egypt. Give me Phenicia, Carthage, Numidia, Assyria, Media, Ancient Sumer, Hittites - I'll take it all and ask for more. But a literal Egypt that also uses literal ancient Egyptian gods? My interest in this place is close to zero. Even Nehekhara from Warhammer is more interesting.
Thuvia and Katapesh: I mix them up because I don't think either country has enough color to be interesting to me. Katapesh loses out to me as the trading capital of the Inner Sea. Absalom is much better. Thuvia as a country famous for its single elixir is no more interesting. In fact, the most interesting region for me among these two countries is Okeno. I'd love to see if this port of pirates and slavers gets more love in the future, as the Barbary pirate theme is largely unexplored in fantasy. I would even be happy if they were made significantly different from the main pirates of the setting. For example, here the pirates do not just arrange raids, they conduct a crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for organizing raids. And then they distribute these funds according to the signed agreements. Such activities could attract Devils to the island.
Rahadoum: But this is quite an interesting country for me, which I would like to see in a larger form. I like the idea of Rahadoum as almost the only country in the world that declares that "the laws of our country are above the divine will." I love this idea and would love Rahadoum as heroes. For example, the Pure Legion, which conducts anti-devil actions, stating that now the inhabitants of the city can decide their own destiny without the tyranny of the deities. Also, since the Cheliax have lost their planetarium on the continent, this port may become an autonomous region in Rahadoum. I would be interested to see this.
Tropkagar |
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And one more message, because I don't know where to post it, and this question is very distant, but it concerns the regions. I have a question - why is the population of Golarion so small? I mean, Absalom's population of 300,000 is very small. Baghdad in the tenth century AD had a population of two million. At various times prior to this, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria very likely had populations of more than a million, and it is also possible that Syracuse and even Babylon. Compared to this, Absalom as the largest city in the world looks rather pathetic.
keftiu |
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And one more message, because I don't know where to post it, and this question is very distant, but it concerns the regions. I have a question - why is the population of Golarion so small? I mean, Absalom's population of 300,000 is very small. Baghdad in the tenth century AD had a population of two million. At various times prior to this, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria very likely had populations of more than a million, and it is also possible that Syracuse and even Babylon. Compared to this, Absalom as the largest city in the world looks rather pathetic.
Golarion repeatedly suffers magical apocalypses and invasions, which keeps numbers down - that’s how I’ve always squared it in my head, anyway.
You should probably know for your other message that slavery is out in Pathfinder going forward, and has already been confirmed to be abolished in Katapesh and Qadira (but with it gone in Cheliax, expect it gone everywhere). It won’t be a theme for the region again.
Tropkagar |
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Tropkagar wrote:And one more message, because I don't know where to post it, and this question is very distant, but it concerns the regions. I have a question - why is the population of Golarion so small? I mean, Absalom's population of 300,000 is very small. Baghdad in the tenth century AD had a population of two million. At various times prior to this, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria very likely had populations of more than a million, and it is also possible that Syracuse and even Babylon. Compared to this, Absalom as the largest city in the world looks rather pathetic.Golarion repeatedly suffers magical apocalypses and invasions, which keeps numbers down - that’s how I’ve always squared it in my head, anyway.
You should probably know for your other message that slavery is out in Pathfinder going forward, and has already been confirmed to be abolished in Katapesh and Qadira (but with it gone in Cheliax, expect it gone everywhere). It won’t be a theme for the region again.
No, I understand that it has been cancelled. I just wanted to say that such topics do not bother me and I do not understand at all why others are happy about this. I think the abolition of slavery in Cheliax provided a good plot hook, but otherwise I'm fairly indifferent to the abolition of slavery.
keftiu |
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keftiu wrote:No, I understand that it has been cancelled. I just wanted to say that such topics do not bother me and I do not understand at all why others are happy about this. I think the abolition of slavery in Cheliax provided a good plot hook, but otherwise I'm fairly indifferent to the abolition of slavery.Tropkagar wrote:And one more message, because I don't know where to post it, and this question is very distant, but it concerns the regions. I have a question - why is the population of Golarion so small? I mean, Absalom's population of 300,000 is very small. Baghdad in the tenth century AD had a population of two million. At various times prior to this, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria very likely had populations of more than a million, and it is also possible that Syracuse and even Babylon. Compared to this, Absalom as the largest city in the world looks rather pathetic.Golarion repeatedly suffers magical apocalypses and invasions, which keeps numbers down - that’s how I’ve always squared it in my head, anyway.
You should probably know for your other message that slavery is out in Pathfinder going forward, and has already been confirmed to be abolished in Katapesh and Qadira (but with it gone in Cheliax, expect it gone everywhere). It won’t be a theme for the region again.
If you're aware, then you probably shouldn't be holding out much hope for Okeno to get more love as a slaver port going forward. LO: Firebrands describes the Kholo (Gnolls) of that settlement as being brought on en masse as Zephyr Guards to protect the Pactmaster regime from revolution, explicitly as a replacement for the work they can no longer do with slavery outlawed in the nation.
GM_3826 |
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Thuvia and Katapesh: I mix them up because I don't think either country has enough color to be interesting to me. Katapesh loses out to me as the trading capital of the Inner Sea. Absalom is much better. Thuvia as a country famous for its single elixir is no more interesting.
Katapesh's deal is being the place where you get things that are highly regulated in Absalom. Not just slaves—drugs, poisons, magic items that can be used to create undead, you name it, and if you have the connections you can find it somewhere in Katapesh. Think of it as the Gotham to Absalom's Metropolis.
Thuvia, meanwhile, has received a lot of love as of late. If you want to see a take on Thuvia that isn't centered around the Sun Orchid Elixir, check out the Enmity Cycle. If you want the Ancient Near East, but not Egypt, the Enmity Cycle is by and large dedicated to exploring that space, and has a gazetteer on the area.
Morhek |
Katapesh gives big "libertarian hellscape" vibes, while Thuvia is more "United Arab Emirates." But both have a strong alchemical theme, between Katapesh's pesh industry and Thuvia's elixir, and mercantile ethoses. Certainly something a Lost Omens: The Golden Road can do more to differentiate between.
Tropkagar |
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If you're aware, then you probably shouldn't be holding out much hope for Okeno to get more love as a slaver port going forward. LO: Firebrands describes the Kholo (Gnolls) of that settlement as being brought on en masse as Zephyr Guards to protect the Pactmaster regime from revolution, explicitly as a replacement for the work they can no longer do with slavery outlawed in the nation.
No, I'm not attached to the "slave port" idea at all. They can be, for example, a port for pirates. Or a raider port.
Regarding Katapesh - I guess I just think that the market for goods of dubious ethnic value is not what the whole country deserves. I'm ready to see more content, but so far I'm not in love with the current version.
As for Thuvia... Maybe. It's just that neither I nor my friends seem to have Enmity Cycle, as far as I know.
Darth Game Master |
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And one more message, because I don't know where to post it, and this question is very distant, but it concerns the regions. I have a question - why is the population of Golarion so small? I mean, Absalom's population of 300,000 is very small. Baghdad in the tenth century AD had a population of two million. At various times prior to this, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria very likely had populations of more than a million, and it is also possible that Syracuse and even Babylon. Compared to this, Absalom as the largest city in the world looks rather pathetic.
Baghdad had one million people in the 10th century, not two, and Constantinople/Istanbul didn't reach that until the 20th century. Population numbers for Rome and Alexandria in ancient times are controversial; more recent estimates for the latter have it at nearly a million if you count suburbs and half if not. Nitpicks aside, you absolutely have a point: Absalom having a population double or triple what it has in canon could absolutely be justified based on real world history. I've often considered that strange.
Now, personally, I'd argue that the incentive to gather in protected settlements provided by monsters should make city populations bigger, not smaller. Not to mention how much magic helps with disease, infant mortality, etc--I presume spellcasters are more common per capita in urban areas and that's likely a draw in itself. But one could make a case for the crises that kicked off the Age of Lost Omens shaking things up enough to offset those factors, and at times mages can cause as many problems as they solve. Also, the biggest cities in the world had a population of less than half a million in the 12th-14th centuries so it's not totally unimaginable.
I think a part of it has to do with D&D 3.5's settlement size guidelines, which had 25K+ as "metropolis". But mainly, the designers of the setting probably just didn't feel like they needed to match how things were IRL; plenty of things in Golarion are quite different from actual history. At the end of the day Pathfinder is more "fantasy with a vaguely premodern/early modern aesthetic" than emulating any real time period. So while I would've personally given Absalom more people, I'm not as bothered by it as I used to be.
What's more unusual is the top 2 cities by population both being city-states and not imperial capitals—or port cities serving as provincial capitals in major empires—as has been the case for the past 3500 years or so, but that's a ramble for another time.
The Raven Black |
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Erastil prefers towns and villages to cities and he is LG. And, at a guess, those proteans who do care do not like cities either. And Druids do nothing to encourage them.
So, I think cities have more working against them than in our world. Conversely, rural life has more working for it.
For example, when a Spawn of Rovagug or a Kaiju happens by, it's fitter for overall survival to have scattered towns than everyone gathered in a very small area (aka free all-you-can-eat buffet).
Morhek |
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In fairness, real-life Earth doesn't have gods like Erastil and Abadar to limit population explosions and urban sprawl, or gods like Gozreh and magical druids that allow rural and natural areas to hold their own.
Personally, I rationalise the city population numbers as being what lives within the walls, but that the population of a city would be much larger if you figure outlying areas under their provincial control. From memory, I once calculated the urban population of Osirion as something like 292,000, which seemed incredibly low for something even half the size of Ancient Egypt at its height, which has been estimated as 1.5 million circa 3000 BCE and about double that during the late 2nd to early 1st millennium BCE. But if you factor in the rural population living along the riverbanks or in the desert, you could reasonably swell that to about 2.9 million, which seems a lot better as a national population. And Osirion has the advantage of having druids and clerics to reduce the mortality rate, even if it doesn't cover the total square footage that Ancient Egypt at its height did.
zimmerwald1915 |
The trouble with that is that rural populations are *also* very low, with each 90-odd square mile hex without a settlement having about 250 people in it in 1E's kingdom building rules. Has this figure been revised upward, or have different countries with different settlement patterns (i.e., anything other than the sparse semi-wilderness of the River Kingdoms) been given the option to use more appropriate figures, in 2E's equivalent rules?
YlothofMerab |
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I feel like Golarion has a much lower population for 2 reasons:
1) The more people there are, the more towns there are. The more towns need names, and histories, and lore, and there is only so much creative muscle to make this happen.
2) It is almost impossible to live on the fringes of society because of all the...you know...monsters. That probably curbs the population down a bit.
zimmerwald1915 |
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2) It is almost impossible to live on the fringes of society because of all the...you know...monsters. That probably curbs the population down a bit.
If that was the case there should be far fewer, and far smaller, territorial states (that is to say, states bigger than city-states) than there are, as sparse population both deprives the state of the means *and* the incentive to administer large territories. The point of holding territory is extracting tax revenue from the economic activity that goes on in it, and if there aren't people there isn't economic activity.
Mammoth Daddy |
I want to know what’s happening with the return of old Osirion Gods in Osirion. They are popular (or they wouldn’t have been included in the gods & magic book) and I myself only bought the book because it included them. This meant a lot to me as it demonstrated the company’s appreciation for ‘obscure-deity’ players like myself.
I enjoy playing a common race, but you can bet they’re gonna belong to some minority cult- in the neutral sense of the word hahaha!
Morhek |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I want to know what’s happening with the return of old Osirion Gods in Osirion. They are popular (or they wouldn’t have been included in the gods & magic book) and I myself only bought the book because it included them. This meant a lot to me as it demonstrated the company’s appreciation for ‘obscure-deity’ players like myself.
I enjoy playing a common race, but you can bet they’re gonna belong to some minority cult- in the neutral sense of the word hahaha!
Running Mummy's Mask, there's a really noticeable disconnect between the original envisaging of the setting - where the Old Gods were deliberately suppressed, forgotten and otherwise marginalised, with only Wadjet and Apep having lingering cults - and what exists in Osirion, where there still are functional temples and lingering worshippers. They're nowhere near as powerful as the large followings of Sarenrae, Pharasma and Nethys, but they still exist. There were temples to Osiris and Thoth still operating well into the sultanate in Wati when the Plague of Madness hit, and there's still a temple of Thoth and Maat in Tephu with shrines for every other god but Set. A shadow of their former glory perhaps, but not extinct.
If I was going to ask for a tidbit throne my way for the 2e Osirion, it would be that following the fall of Hakotep, and seeing how the worshippers of the newer gods proved futile against his power (the Pharasmins' failure to stop the undead uprising in Wati, and the Nethysians' outright obstruction of the adventurers in Tephu) people have started turning back to their ancestors' faith in larger numbers, and make those faiths' struggle to build new temples, find new noble patrons, and establish their followings among people amenable to it part of an ongoing meta-narrative of Osirion's post-sultanate cultural renaissance and post-Hakotep reconstruction. The fact that Paizo brought in the real-life gods of Ancient Egypt when they made the setting is something that's been criticised, understandably so, but recommitting to them with 2e shows they're here to stay, and if you're going to have a Fantasy Ancient Egypt you might as well do it properly.
UnArcaneElection |
I wonder if Cheliax negotiated a freedom for people in the area to worship Asmodeus as long as you don't try to proselitize exemption as part of relinquishing its control on Khari.
And other religions could ask for the same treatment.
Might be the best short-term policy for Rahadoum as far as Khari is concerned.
I was just going to say . . . maybe a treaty was part of how Rahadoum acquired Khari, and part of the treaty was that they had to allow freedom of religion. Of course, as we have seen on Earth in recent years, such treaties can be unilaterally abrogated, but the example I am thinking of took several years for that to happen, so as things stand now, with control over Khari being shaky, Rahadoum might well decide to honor its side of the bargain . . . for now. Then, as it becomes a hotbed for dissidents (Here's your Kintargo homage), they use this as an excuse to start cracking down more and more as the years go by, at an accelerating rate.