IluzryMage |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Smallfoot |
Thanks so much for this work! It's nice to see new guides for the Core classes.
Since I've got a Saurian Shaman Druid2 in PFS, I picked up on this item under "What you lose" for the Saurian Shaman: "Druid level -2 for wild shape...but +2 for dinos..just take shaping focus."
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but Shaping Focus is only for druid multiclass characters, right? So it does bring your Wild Shape up to your character level (max) but doesn't offset the quasi-penalty of the Shaman archetype.
avr |
A few notes. Druids have full spellcasting - but - at high levels their spell list is terrible. Late game the better spells are often higher level copies of cleric spells.
There's a few spell ratings in the domains I disagree with - beast shape is pretty redundant for a wild shaper, call lightning is bad and call lightning storm is worse given the level increase, a handful of things like that.
Death druid isn't impossible for melee - bonded manifestation adds some. Supernaturalist can in fact use armor - leather armor/darkwoood shields/darkleaf cloth hide works fine without proficiency, a level dip for proficiency allows them anything a normal druid can plus possibly stoneplate. Lightning domain technically isn't available to storm druids...should be thematically but it isn't.
If you're after more recently released notable archetypes take a peek at the halcyon druid and the green scourge.
Spirit's gift has been nerfed into the ground by errata, beastmaster's style & successors require Cha which is hard for a melee druid; note stick-fighting style as useful for druids too IMO.
Arkham Joker |
Huge kudos for putting together a guide.... congrats.
However, I would disagree with some of your ratings systems..
For example, on cleric domains, you've got Ash (Fire) as an 'Average' - this is quite simply wrong as Ash is one of the best domains out there!
And for the elemental domains I think you're misunderstanding the point of the 1st level damage SLAs. You shouldn't be viewing them in terms of what damage they do at Level 20 because thats not their purpose. Their purpose is to give an on tap ranged attack/utility option that will be of some use between Lv 1-5. They can actually have some out of combat uses if you think about it. Yes they are not "game breaking" but then you have to view them in terms of what levels they are geared towards.
IluzryMage |
Thanks so much for this work! It's nice to see new guides for the Core classes.
Since I've got a Saurian Shaman Druid2 in PFS, I picked up on this item under "What you lose" for the Saurian Shaman: "Druid level -2 for wild shape...but +2 for dinos..just take shaping focus."
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but Shaping Focus is only for druid multiclass characters, right? So it does bring your Wild Shape up to your character level (max) but doesn't offset the quasi-penalty of the Shaman archetype.
This is true! It won't lower my rating but i will reflect it in the guide post haste!
IluzryMage |
A few notes. Druids have full spellcasting - but - at high levels their spell list is terrible. Late game the better spells are often higher level copies of cleric spells.
There's a few spell ratings in the domains I disagree with - beast shape is pretty redundant for a wild shaper, call lightning is bad and call lightning storm is worse given the level increase, a handful of things like that.
Death druid isn't impossible for melee - bonded manifestation adds some. Supernaturalist can in fact use armor - leather armor/darkwoood shields/darkleaf cloth hide works fine without proficiency, a level dip for proficiency allows them anything a normal druid can plus possibly stoneplate. Lightning domain technically isn't available to storm druids...should be thematically but it isn't.
If you're after more recently released notable archetypes take a peek at the halcyon druid and the green scourge.
Spirit's gift has been nerfed into the ground by errata, beastmaster's style & successors require Cha which is hard for a melee druid; note stick-fighting style as useful for druids too IMO.
While i agree they do not have the best spell list, its still pretty powerful and when compared against all of the other classes in the game, not just other casters, it's a ridiclous class feature and the reason why druids are a tier1 class.
beast shape is redudant for a wild shaper, but I'm trying to rate the spells without mention of any other class features you may or may not have, and on its own, beast shape is a very good spell...that you somehow don't get on your spell list! Go figure!!! I can talk to you about other spells ratings, or what have you but thats sort of the ethos behind it.
Ya know i looked at halcyon druid and have been considering it because it is pretty strong but i just didnt know for sure you know? I'll check it out again, and might add it. The Green scourge just seems fun...but not necessary busted in any way, just fun.
So for the supernaturalist, you are correct it can use armor without proficiency but it isnt helping us any to lose it. Ill reflect this in the rating but losing wild shape in exchange for what effectively feels like a ghost of wild shape is no good.
Can you show me the spirits gift errata?
Stick fighting is...good i wouldnt say great but its fun. Definitely worth adding.
IluzryMage |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Huge kudos for putting together a guide.... congrats.
However, I would disagree with some of your ratings systems..
For example, on cleric domains, you've got Ash (Fire) as an 'Average' - this is quite simply wrong as Ash is one of the best domains out there!
And for the elemental domains I think you're misunderstanding the point of the 1st level damage SLAs. You shouldn't be viewing them in terms of what damage they do at Level 20 because thats not their purpose. Their purpose is to give an on tap ranged attack/utility option that will be of some use between Lv 1-5. They can actually have some out of combat uses if you think about it. Yes they are not "game breaking" but then you have to view them in terms of what levels they are geared towards.
So if ashe is one of the best that is...unforunate. I also don't think it's true given what I've seen of domains. It has good spells but compared to some of the others I've seen, it could use some work.
As far as the elemental domains, my counter arguement is that you only get two abilities as part of your domain. Two. So both of them have to be worthwhile, for the duration of your stay with these abilities, beyond levels 1-5.
But lets say for example, that we are only constrained to those levels. Are these abilities useful then? No. You can do the same damage or more with a crossbow or a Bow, and it doesn't take up one of your two precious abilities. Moreover, both a crossbow and a bow can get stronger over time through enhancements. These abilities cannot. A crossbow or a bow also can be used as many times per day as you have ammo. These, fairly weak attacks, have a per day limit. If it were at will, I'd be with you, but as it is, these seem like relics of a time before the general power of PF rose, and have been rated accordingly.
There are other first level domain abilities that are AMAZINGLY useful from 1-20, so I've gotta compare them to the rest of the pack.
Arkham Joker |
So if ashe is one of the best that is...unforunate. I also don't think it's true given what I've seen of domains. It has good spells but compared to some of the others I've seen, it could use some work.As far as the elemental domains, my counter arguement is that you only get two abilities as part of your domain. Two. So both of them have to be worthwhile, for the duration of your stay with these abilities, beyond levels 1-5.
But lets say for example, that we are only constrained to those levels. Are these abilities useful then? No. You can do the same damage or more with a crossbow or a Bow, and it doesn't take up one of your two precious abilities. Moreover, both a crossbow and a bow can get stronger over time through enhancements. These abilities cannot. A crossbow or a bow also can be used as many times per day as you have ammo. These, fairly weak attacks, have a per day limit. If it were at will, I'd be with you, but as it is, these seem like relics of a time before the general power of PF rose, and have been rated accordingly.
There are other first level domain abilities that are AMAZINGLY useful from 1-20, so I've gotta compare them to the rest of the pack.
Take a look at some of the more established and well known guides for cleric domains and you will see that Ash is consistently rated very highly....overall very good spells and Wall of Ashes is an incredibly useful ability.
The domain abilities are important because:
- They hit touch AC
- Have 3+WIS uses per day which even at low level will be a lot of uses.
- You don't have to buy, carry, draw or load them
- They can't break
- They don't need 2 hands to use (so a shield can still be used)
- They do similar damage to bows and x-bows at low level
- They don't require a move action to load
- Have greater out of combat utility
And crucially you have completely forgotten something... Druids are not proficient as standard with bows or x-bows!!!!
Like I said, I'm not saying they are amazing but they are definitely not "bad"... you have to look at the bigger picture and realise their utility for a lower level full caster. Comparing them to a +4 x-bow is irrelevant.
Unlike a Cleric, a Druid has a very limited selection of domains that they can access, so even if there were 1st level domain powers that had "AMAZINGLY" useful ability from Lv 1-20 (I'm not aware of hardly any by the way - which are you referring to?), if the Druid (this is a Druid guide remember) can't access them, whats the point?!
IluzryMage |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IluzryMage wrote:
So if ashe is one of the best that is...unforunate. I also don't think it's true given what I've seen of domains. It has good spells but compared to some of the others I've seen, it could use some work.As far as the elemental domains, my counter arguement is that you only get two abilities as part of your domain. Two. So both of them have to be worthwhile, for the duration of your stay with these abilities, beyond levels 1-5.
But lets say for example, that we are only constrained to those levels. Are these abilities useful then? No. You can do the same damage or more with a crossbow or a Bow, and it doesn't take up one of your two precious abilities. Moreover, both a crossbow and a bow can get stronger over time through enhancements. These abilities cannot. A crossbow or a bow also can be used as many times per day as you have ammo. These, fairly weak attacks, have a per day limit. If it were at will, I'd be with you, but as it is, these seem like relics of a time before the general power of PF rose, and have been rated accordingly.
There are other first level domain abilities that are AMAZINGLY useful from 1-20, so I've gotta compare them to the rest of the pack.
Take a look at some of the more established and well known guides for cleric domains and you will see that Ash is consistently rated very highly....overall very good spells and Wall of Ashes is an incredibly useful ability.
The domain abilities are important because:
- They hit touch AC
- Have 3+WIS uses per day which even at low level will be a lot of uses.
- You don't have to buy, carry, draw or load them
- They can't break
- They don't need 2 hands to use (so a shield can still be used)
- They do similar damage to bows and x-bows at low level
- They don't require a move action to load
- Have greater out of combat utilityAnd crucially you have completely forgotten something... Druids are not proficient as standard with bows or x-bows!!!!
Like I said, I'm not saying they are...
I mean most of the guides for domains are pretty old, and looking over it, it was serviceable. It's not a bad option by any means, but I didn't consider it ya know great.
As far as the domain abilities go,
-touch ac is great, but they dont hit hard enough and cost a standard action
-Money flows pretty freely, so unless you are playing a super poverty campaign, not really an issue.
-I mean sure the shield thing is fine, but that's also not the biggest concern, we have lots of ways to boost our ac, and again these abilities aren't at will, so we will be weaponless for a while.
-They do do similar damage...and cost us one of our two domain abilities in comparison to like 50 gold.
-I mean sure, but thats just for crossbows, and we can work around that.
-Well all of their out of combat utility can probably be provided by a cantrip, which do work all day.
-we aren't proficient! Darn! Well then you still have your spells, which are great, like magic stone, or even just a sLING can do comparable damage. Or just have a race that gives you proficiency.
And i think the important note here is that I AM looking at the bigger picture, because some domain abilities we get are "Extended SNA" which is amazing or "Free Action Blur" or literally just "Enlarge Person" all of which have way more lasting power and are in general, much more useful than what should be a cantrip.
Druids actually have access to a lot of really powerful domains and subdomains, and I encourage you to check out some of the abilities i rated higher. My personal favorite is the plains terrain domain.
avr |
Spirit's gift used to be all day I think? Maybe hours? Anyway now it's 1/day as a standard action, duration 1 minute/level as per the Advanced Class Guide errata - included in the feat description on both d20pfsrd and AoN. The spirit animal abilities top out at around the effect of a mediocre 2nd level spell. This isn't worth a feat once you have real 2nd level spells IMO.
I more or less agree on the domain touch attacks BTW. The only time you use them is when you want to be seen to contribute but don't want to waste actual resources.
I can't see how rating spells in some abstract sense which doesn't apply to a druid's use of them is relevant in a druid guide.
Call lightning {storm}: It doesn't do enough damage per round to justify itself. If you dislike domain touch attacks I can't see how you like this. Just carry a sling for situations you'd use this.
Gaseous form: unless in a location set up for it, this is a bad escape spell and of doubtful utility for a 3rd level spell.
Storm of vengeance: good for messing up armies, but you have 5th level spells (control winds, transmute rock to mud) for that. SoV's 9th.
Incendiary cloud: see SoV.
Tsunami: see SoV (Earthquake does just enough extra to be worth getting; not so much these three).
Stoneskin: much better if it wasn't a 6th level spell slot. If prepared in an ordinary druid spell slot (not domain) it's 5th! As a wizard it would be 4th!
Statue: why would you do this to yourself?
Aspect of the wolf: actually an OK buff if not great. Not red even as a 5th level spell.
strayshift |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is one racial archetype you should look at - the Treesinger. You can take it as a half-elf, have decent physical stats and take a plant companion.
Level 1. Animal Soul - gives immunity to spells that plants are immune to (mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning). Can affect companion with 'animal' spells.
Level 3. Green Faith Acolyte - Plants can be excluded from harmful spells.
Level 4. Wildshape - Plant only but they have better ability bonuses than non-plants (just watch that fire...) +1 Wisdom
Level 5. Natural Spell. That vine just cast a spell on me...
Level 7. Power Attack.
Level 8. Wild Shape = Plant Shape 2. +1 Wisdom
Level 9. Improved Grapple.
Alraune - 4 slams (1d10) with grab and constrict, 40' base speed
Shambling Mound - 2 slams (2d6) with grab and constrict, resist fire and electricity 20
Viper Vine - 1 bite (2d6 + 3d6 acid), 4 secondary tentacles (1d6) with grab, constrict and 20' reach, resist acid 20
Level 11. Powerful Shape. Better grab and CMB/CMD.
Level 12. Wild Shape = Plant Shape 3 (Note: Fast Healing 5!) +1 Wisdom.
Also the Ferocious Summons feat is worthy of inclusion.
IluzryMage |
Spirit's gift used to be all day I think? Maybe hours? Anyway now it's 1/day as a standard action, duration 1 minute/level as per the Advanced Class Guide errata - included in the feat description on both d20pfsrd and AoN. The spirit animal abilities top out at around the effect of a mediocre 2nd level spell. This isn't worth a feat once you have real 2nd level spells IMO.
I more or less agree on the domain touch attacks BTW. The only time you use them is when you want to be seen to contribute but don't want to waste actual resources.
I can't see how rating spells in some abstract sense which doesn't apply to a druid's use of them is relevant in a druid guide.
** spoiler omitted **
Okay these are some solid points. I'll try to make some amends to my guide based around this, thank you!
Coidzor |
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Call Animal + Charm Animal (or Wild Empathy) + Speak with Animals can also potentially get you some information about an area if you can determine what kinds of animals should be present. Anthropomorphic Animal is also a possible substitute for Speak with Animals
Call Animal can also be used as the basis for a combo to get some short-term allies, or at least to be able to better find something that you want to cast Awaken on.
Between Anthropomorphic Animal, Permanency(from an ally or purchased), and Awaken, you have potential to gain a pseudo-cohort, especially if Retraining is in the mix.
Thanks to the quirks of Instantaneous Duration Conjuration (Creation) spells, Iron Stake is the lowest hanging fruit when it comes to Druids who want to get in on breaking the economy like other big casters. The Iron Spike item is a 1-foot long iron spike and weighs 1 pound. It's the easiest reference without breaking out math to create a range of possible volumes for a 1-ft long spike projectile and multiplying that by the density of iron. On the other hand, Cold Iron as a trade good is 50 gp per pound, so if Iron Stake creates a 1-pound spike, creating 50 gp out of a spell slot is less than selling that spell slot as a spellcasting service. Even if you can't sell it, it does give you some permanent cold iron that sticks around, which can be useful.
Reincarnate will work on animals, even Awakened ones. The biggest obstacle to making use of this is the fact that there isn't a ready-made reincarnation table for animals. If that can be overcome, though, the potential to take something with a lot of HD, like a Blue Whale and put those HD into an animal that can fit inside of more places could be very helpful. There is a lot of random chance involved, though, so probably better to not just kill your animal friends willy-nilly in the hopes of Reincarnating them into a more favorable chassis. Any Druids that are working with a Necromancer can even elect to not consume the body when casting Reincarnate, and thus provide the necromancer with a renewable supply of high HD bodies.
That's all of the Druid tricks I can think of off the top of my head to mention.
Madruga_Br |
I did a halcyon druid focused on polymorph and it actually worked. Spells like mirror image improve the character defensively and there are interesting offensive buffs like heroism.
The problem is that natural spell only works with wild shape, so to cast transformed into animals or magical beasts requires metamagic feats like still spell and Eschew Materials (English is not my first language, so sorry for the mistakes).
Kurald Galain RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
As a long-term druid fan and player, let me say: nice guide!
Here are some thoughts,
For War Blessing, Liberation domain is worth considering as it negates several nasty monster abilities.
Stalker's Focus reads like you need to pick one animal and stick with it. It's decent but not versatile.
I think you're overvaluing Cherry Blossom Spell. Comparing it to Dazing Spell, CBS will give an enemy like -2 to hit and AC, whereas DS makes the enemy unable to do anything. DS is extremely powerful, CBS strikes me as substantially less than that.
IluzryMage |
As a long-term druid fan and player, let me say: nice guide!
Here are some thoughts,
For War Blessing, Liberation domain is worth considering as it negates several nasty monster abilities.
Stalker's Focus reads like you need to pick one animal and stick with it. It's decent but not versatile.
I think you're overvaluing Cherry Blossom Spell. Comparing it to Dazing Spell, CBS will give an enemy like -2 to hit and AC, whereas DS makes the enemy unable to do anything. DS is extremely powerful, CBS strikes me as substantially less than that.
Wow getting a commendation from the top is like...wow okay sweet.
Uh yeah i would say in comparison to Dazing spell, not many metamagics can keep up. I'll move it down to a 5/5 to keep consistency, but I think getting constant possibly save ignoring ability damage every turn can make some spells incredibly nasty.
Northern Spotted Owl |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gaseous form: unless in a location set up for it, this is a bad escape spell and of doubtful utility for a 3rd level spell.
I agree with your other ratings avr, but not this one. Gaseous form gets you into and/or out of locked areas. It gets you out of traps and hopeless encounters/combats. It gives you flight, albeit slow flight. Even if not directly stated, it almost certainly gives you a lot of stealth opportunities. And it lasts 10+ minutes.
For a 3rd level spell I think that quite a bit of utility.
VoodistMonk |
I found the overall tone and style hilarious, and loved it.
The items list was/is quite helpful, as I didn't know about alot of those very awesome toys. Same with quite a few of the feats, especially those involved with stealing features from other classes (like War Blessing). Tell the truth, I really had no clue about half the feats... I will have to explore those further in relation to my individual druid builds.
I am glad you included Shade of the Uskwood and Agent of the Grave. I used Blight Druid for access to the Death Domain... it also gives Vermin Empathy, which is just fun... Miasma and Plaguebearer make my incorporeal Lich necromancer even more of pain. Lol.
After reading your guide I pretty much have to redo all my Druids, though.
VoodistMonk |
There doesn't appear to be a mention about how Nature Fang increases your spell DCs vs Studied Targets. This is incredibly important and makes the Nature Fang by far one of the stronger caster focused archetypes.
Nature Fang Druid VMC Cavalier for Order of the Blossom is quite legit for this very reason...
Challenge: Whenever an order of the blossom cavalier issues a challenge, the target of the challenge takes a –1 penalty on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities used by fey or by the cavalier. This penalty increases by 1 for every 4 levels the cavalier has.You alao get more Sneak Attack, if that matters to you, and it stacks with the 1D6 you get from Nature Fang...
Sneak Attack (Ex)
At 2nd level, an order of the blossom cavalier can make a sneak attack, as the rogue ability of the same name. At 2nd level, his sneak attack damage is +1d6. This damage increases by 1d6 at 8th level and every 6 levels thereafter. If the cavalier gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonus damage stacks.
PLUS!!! You get some neat SLA's that go really well with a Fey Spell Lore build...
Fey Enchantments (Sp)
At 8th level, an order of the blossom cavalier learns to use the following spell-like abilities: animal messenger, enthrall, hideous laughter, and suggestion, with a caster level equal to his cavalier level. He can use these spell-like abilities a total of three times per day, in any combination (such as by casting enthrall three times, or animal messenger once and suggestion twice). The saving throw DC for these spell-like abilities is 10 + half the cavalier’s level + his Charisma modifier. At 16th level, the cavalier can use his spell-like abilities seven times per day, and he adds charm monster and terrible remorse to the list.
IluzryMage |
There doesn't appear to be a mention about how Nature Fang increases your spell DCs vs Studied Targets. This is incredibly important and makes the Nature Fang by far one of the stronger caster focused archetypes.
HUH! I did not think about that. Let me uhhhh write that down thank you very much!!!
VoodistMonk |
Fun with Druid's Venom Immunity... so we take a Yzobu as our Animal Companon, because they stink.
We are going to be Human for this, and use our bonus feat for Racial Heritage Orge... we will take Corrupted Flesh at level 7... the same level our pet gets Stench, as well.
Improved Stench, Toxic Stench, Pungent Stench can be had before level 13, and Amplified Stench is on the Druid Spell list...
At 13:
Your Stench with Amplified Stench:
120'; DC (20 + Con)
Nauseated + Poison + Sickened ~15rnds(?)
Pretty sure I got all that right... Corrupted Flesh doesn't actually give you any Stench stats to run with so I just used the example in the monster rules. Either way, you are looking at some really brutal body odor. Lol.