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This is something ive been messing with in my mind lately cause while the default seems to just pump everything into strength and be a big ol beat stick much like the bloodrager, the more i looked into it the more i realized the paladin could be a very respectable tank if you focus more on charisma thanks to divine grace, and have just enough strength to use power attack properly.
What do you think?
Strength-based is going to be predictable/dependable in the things expected of a Paladin... they would fill the role better as far as general expectations are concerned.
However, I like the idea of the Charisma-based version. Since spellcasting is probably going to be pretty worthless anyways, I would consider finding as many other uses for Charisma as possible. Oath of the People's Council for Bardic Performance... or Virtuous Bravo for Panache? Of those, I definitely prefer the Oath of the People's Council... Bards are awesome.
Human, probably, just so you can start with Noble Scion of War and Fey Foundling... what? You were found in the woods and then became nobility, happens all the time. Lol.
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I find that between the buffs available to the Paladin, their high BAB, their bonded weapon, and teamwork with the other part members ... You really don't need that high of a Strength. Sure, it isn't optimal but it is fully sufficient AND you still wreck face when you go to smite evil.
I once built a Halfling Paladin of Irori that had just enough strength for Power Attack, took Weapon Finesse, wore light armor and generally kneecapped everything. Wrath of the Righteous was a hell of a good time.
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Depends on your party.
I GMed a party through The Emerald Spire whose paladin was the buffer/healer of the party. Max Charisma and everything else in Con. I think she was actually encumbered by her heavy armor. Worked great because they had other melee characters. If she was the only one it would have been bad news.
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Depends on your party.
I GMed a party through The Emerald Spire whose paladin was the buffer/healer of the party. Max Charisma and everything else in Con. I think she was actually encumbered by her heavy armor. Worked great because they had other melee characters. If she was the only one it would have been bad news.
Well the idea i had would be more of a balanced spread of 14,10,14,10,10,16. Largely charisma based but still competent in a fight
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My general premise with casters is that they want a high enough score in their casting stat to end up with a bonus spell in their highest level spell slot at all times.
Full 9th level casters want to end up with a +9 modifier (28 in the stat)
6th level casters want to end up with a +6 modifier (22 in the stat)
4th level casters want to end up with a +4 modifier (18 in the stat) .
This is the "Soft Cap", where adding another +1 gives you less value than the previous +1 unless you can get to another +4 modifier (+8 in the stat). Sure you always get something out of another +1 modifier, but you get the MOST at these points , so they're the most value for investment.
4th level casters are often beatsticks who only use magic for occasional buffs, so for them getting just up to the point of casting their 4th level spells (14 in the stat, which is only a +2 modifier), without wanting to spend more resources on extra spells per day.
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There are 2 classes that don't quite follow this though - the Paladin and the Occultist. The reason for this is that they get a LOT more benefit from their casting stat than just casting spells.
Paladins get better Divine Grace, more uses of Lay on Hands and higher bonuses for Smite Evil . A simple +1 to each of these is not an insignificant bonus, and may be worth more than a bonus 4th level spell per day, so the "soft cap" is less meaningful to them.
So even though my general Paladin build would have STR as the highest stat, their CHA wouldn't be far behind. I'd usually start with ~16 in both STR and CHA, and end end with ~26 STR and ~22 CHA.
But as I said Paladins get a lot out of their CHA, so if you wanted to have your CHA as your highest stat I wouldn't stop you. I've done it once myself, and it was a fun character. I think that spread would be perfectly functional and you'll have fun.
Personally, I'd prefer to have a paladin that's both Strength-based and Charisma-based:
Start with something close to a "balanced spread" (20 pt buy- 14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha before racial adjustments, or something similar based on generation method and preference*; pick a race with a Cha bonus or one that you can choose your bonus) and go paladin 3/skald (spell warrior) 2**/dragon disciple 4***/paladin +X with Skill Focus**** (Knowledge [Planes] or Survival), Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal or Orc), and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss or Strength of the Beast). All advancements in Cha. You are -2 on BAB, but +2 on melee attack bonus and +2 (+3 with a two-handed weapon) on melee damage after the dragon disciple levels, plus the enhance weapons can be used to either add a +1 enhancement bonus or a "+1 equivalent" (if the weapon already has a magic bonus; defending, distance, flaming, frost, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, or seeking) to all weapon attacks by you and allies in 60 ft; at 11th, 15th, and 19th character level, Str increases again with an inherent +2, +4, and then +6 (without a single advancement bonus, the character still ends up with a +10 to Str at 20th level before counting an enhancement bonus from a belt or other magic item).
A little slow at the start, but catches up by around 7th-9th character level and starts to pull ahead at 11th+.
*- if human or half-elf (see below), the 13 Int allows Fast Learner to gain both +1 hp and +1 skill point for the favored class bonus (probably for the paladin levels)
**- for enhance weapons Weapon Song and Versatile Performance
***- for +4 Str and +3 natural armor
****- half-elf (Adaptability) or human (alternate racial trait Focused Study) probably work best
Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Shelyn with Diverse Obedience to pick up her 2nd Sentinel boon when you reach 14HD...
Glorious Might (Su) Your passionate devotion to Shelyn grants you extra prowess in your battles against evil, allowing you to see and root out the ugliness at the heart of your foe. When you use your smite evil class feature, you gain double your Charisma bonus on attack rolls and your Charisma bonus + your paladin level on damage rolls. This replaces the normal bonuses for using smite evil. If you don’t have access to smite evil, you instead gain a +2 bonus on weapon attack rolls against evil targets.
Probably going to want the 1st Exalted boon for Good Hope 1/day, or the 1st Sentinel boon for Haste 1/day.
If you reach 18HD, pick up the 3rd Exalted boon:
Plumed Blade (Su) Even in battle, you partake of the beauty and joy with which Shelyn graces her devoted followers. As a free action, you can cause an illusion of brightly colored feathers to follow every swipe and motion of your weapon. When you do so, a single weapon you hold gains the holy and shock weapon special abilities. (You can use this ability on a ranged weapon, but can’t apply it directly to a piece of ammunition.) If you drop the weapon or give it away, this ability’s effects immediately end. You can grant weapons this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 1 + 1 for every 4 Hit Dice you possess (maximum 6 rounds). The rounds don’t need to be consecutive.
Glorious Might (Su) Your passionate devotion to Shelyn grants you extra prowess in your battles against evil, allowing you to see and root out the ugliness at the heart of your foe. When you use your smite evil class feature, you gain double your Charisma bonus on attack rolls and your Charisma bonus + your paladin level on damage rolls. This replaces the normal bonuses for using smite evil. If you don’t have access to smite evil, you instead gain a +2 bonus on weapon attack rolls against evil targets.
That is redonkulously amazeballs!
Merging my concept with VoodistMonk's idea:
Half-Elf Paladin (Shelyn; Oath Against Grotesquery, Oath of Vengeance) 3/Skald (Spell Warrior) 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Paladin +11
20 Point-Buy; starting 14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis, 17 Cha (+2 race)
Pal 1- Adaptability (Skill Focus [Knowledge/Planes]), Multitalented (Paladin, Skald); Armor Expert, Ear for Music; Fast Learner
Pal 2 (no changes/choices)
Pal 3- Beauty Unyielding (replaces Divine Health), Mercy (Sickened?); Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal; Claws)
Skd 1- 18 Cha; Improved Counterspell
Skd 2- Versatile Performance (Oratory); Power Attack*
DD 1- Blood of Dragons (Draconic/Silver bloodline)
DD 2- 16 Str; Bloodline Feat (Improved Initiative*); Deific Obedience*
DD 3- 19 Cha
DD 4- 18 Str; Diverse Obedience
Pal 4- Channel Wrath (replaces Channel Positive Energy); Boon 1 (Graceful Warrior; haste 1/day)
Pal 5- Divine Bond (Weapon); Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss; 20 Str)
Pal 6- 20 Cha; Mercy (Enfeebled)
Pal 7- Martial Focus (Polearms)*
Pal 8- Boon 2 (Glorious Might)
Pal 9- 22 Str; Mercy (Restoration); Cut from the Air*
Pal 10- 21 Cha
Pal 11- Powerful Justice (replaces Aura of Justice); Smash from the Air*
Pal 12- Mercy (Amputated); Boon 3 (Plumed Blade)
Pal 13- 24 Str; Combat Reflexes*
Pal 14- 22 Cha; Restore True Beauty (replaces Aura of Faith)
*- switch order if desired; i.e., Deific Obedience at Skd 2, Power Attack and Martial Focus at DD 2, Cut from the Air at Pal 7, Smash from the Air at Pal 9, Combat Reflexes at Pal 11, Improved Initiative at Pal 13
Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Shelyn with Diverse Obedience to pick up her 2nd Sentinel boon when you reach 14HD...
doesn't work because Diverse Obedience requires the same alignment as your deity. I too wept when I realized this.
I've always wanted to play a all the way with CHA paladin. One day...
You could still take a 1 level dip into Sentinal and just take Deific Obedience.
It obviousoy wouldn't come online until level 16, but you'd get that double-dip from CHA.
I'm in the "both, of course" camp. Start with 16 Str & Chr (one is 14 + race Bump).
Use your stat bumps on Str and get a Headband of Inspired Wisdom to bump up Chr, as necessary. Oh, and a Belt of Giant Strength too.
My PFS stonelord paladin plays against expectations much of the time. His archetype gives up the things that a high Charisma feeds into (divine grace, spells, smite evil), but it's decidedly not a dump stat, either--Diplomacy is one of his best skills. For much of his career, his damage output lagged behind other martials of his level (at least, it felt that way), but that was in large part due to him trying to optimize his defenses (and defensive stance is pretty darn sweet). But now he has the wealth to help bolster his offense, too.
His build has also influenced how I play him. He's one of the tankier characters I've played (between AC, HP, & LOH), so he's very much about planting himself wherever he can make himself the biggest nuisance to the enemy, and taking the hits that would decimate his allies. He's more level-headed and tolerant than most crusaders or Torag-worshipers, because defending the innocent remains his greatest priority. (This is also the PC with whom I played all three Valais adventures, which did a great deal to shape and reinforce his values.)
If the campaign offers decent opportunity to benefit from social skills, then you will get a lot more mileage out of your investment in Charisma.
I would recommend taking a look at the Evangelist prestige class... you qualify for entry at level 6, but I would wait until level 7 to start. You don't want to prolong gaining your second attack from BAB +6, and your saves go up at level 6.
Evangelist is 3/4 BAB, and only brings good Reflex saves with it... so sticking it out in Paladin the extra level to grab the 2nd attack and increased Fort/Will saves is already worth it. You get two skills of your choice added to your list of class skills, 6+Int skills per level, a dodge bonus to AC, two extra languages of your choice, a pretty decent bonus that applies to the plethora of skills you likely have no ranks in, three deific boons, AND you still get all your Paladin stuffs...
Paladin 6/
Evangelist 10
BAB +13
Base Saves +8/+7/+8
CL 12, 4th level spells
You are a 15th level Paladin, plus a whole lot more... like:
Spiritual Form (Su)
Upon reaching 10th level, the evangelist gains the ability to assume a spiritual form. Assuming this form is a standard action, and the evangelist can remain in spiritual form for a number of minutes per day equal to her character level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1-minute increments. Returning to her normal form is a free action.
The evangelist’s spiritual form grants her telepathy to a range of 100 feet, as well as two variable abilities.
Upon reaching 10th level, the evangelist must choose the form of these two abilities, and once she has selected them they can’t be changed. First, she chooses one ability score to which she gains a +4 bonus when in spiritual form. Second, she chooses one physical transformation from the following to gain when she transforms: wings (fly speed of 40 feet with good maneuverability), gills (ability to breathe water and a swim speed of 30 feet), or a single natural attack (a claw, bite, gore, slam, or tail sting that deals damage as appropriate for the evangelist’s size) as well as a temporary appendage capable of making such an attack if necessary.
I'm in the camp that says which type of Paladin you need depends upon what your party needs, including whether they already have one of these types. More after I get past these days of having to get up early for work and come back late . . . .
Okay, here's my Charisma-based Combat Medic Paladin build (originally from here) but somewhat updated -- get Raise Dead 1 level before a Cleric, and be a Party Face!
Paladin (no archetype or Holy Tactician), Human with Powerful Presence alternate racial trait (scroll about 2/5 of the way down to find it) -- lets us rush Ultimate Mercy while keeping Charisma investment from needing to be outrageous.
15 Point Buy version: Str 14 / Dex 11 / Con 12 / Int 12 / Wis 10 / Cha (14 + 2 =) 16; increase Charisma at levels 4 and 8, and Strength at all other 4n levels.
20 Point Buy version: Str 15 / Dex 12 / Con 12 / Int 12 / Wis 10 / Cha (15 + 2 =) 17; increase Charisma at level 4 and Strength at all other 4n levels.
Traits: Dangerously Curious (we need Use Magic Device in class), Princess (we need Intimidate in class) -- if Campaign Trait also needed, add a Drawback to get another Trait slot.
Favored Class Bonus: All goes to Skills.
Skill Ranks per level: Total 6: 2 for Paladin, 1 for being Human, 1 for Favored Class Bonus (all of this goes here), 1 for INT 12, 1 for Cunning feat.
Skills to max (hence the Cunning feat below, and hence the INT 12): Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Use Magic Device.
Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb (1 point), Knowledge (Planes) (can leave for later, but eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Perception (1 point), Sense Motive (eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Spellcraft (1 point), Swim (1 point).
01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (we need more skill ranks -- see above); bonus feat from Human Powerful Presence alternate racial trait = Persuasive (bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate)
02: (Lay on Hands comes on line, and we get 4 uses)
03: Level 3 character feat = Extra Lay On Hands (gets us up to 6 uses) (if choosing the Holy Tactician archetype, Tactical Acumen, the first Bonus Teamwork Feat, and Battlefield Presence come online; otherwise, Divine Health, Divine Bond, and Aura of Courage come online; either way, Mercy comes online)
04: (Ability score increase goes to Charisma, giving us 7 uses of Lay On Hands on 15 point buy or 8 uses on 20 point buy, and either way we qualify for Ultimate Mercy, because Powerful Presence deducted 2 from the normal Charisma requirement of 19)
05: Level 5 character feat = Greater Mercy (prerequisite for Ultimate Mercy, but the extra healing is nice to have, especially since we can't fit Fey Foundling into the build)
06: (Uses of Lay on Hands is up to 7 on 15 point buy or 8 on 20 point buy)
07: Level 7 character feat = Ultimate Mercy (we can't yet use it, but need to level it up in preparation for level 8; GM allowing spending of a Hero Point to squeeze out 2 extra uses for this would probably be a reasonable call)
08: (Ability score increase goes to Charisma if on 15 point buy or to Strength if on 20 point buy, getting uses of Lay On Hands up to 10 either way, now making Ultimate Mercy come online -- we now have Raise Dead 1 level before a Cleric can get it; also, if choosing the Holy Tactician archetype, Guide the Battle comes online; otherwise, Aura of Resolve comes online)
09: Level 9 character feat = Extra Mercy or Power Attack (I thought about Selective Channel, but Channel Energy is probably going to be out of combat or applied against Undead, and used sparingly anyway, so probably better to invest in removing yet another bad condition, since the D Team's limited spells won't be very good for this, or otherwise investing in improving combat effectiveness)
10: -
11: Level 11 character feat = Channeled Revival (Breath of Life at range) (if choosing the Holy Tactician archetype, Weal's Wrath now comes online; otherwise, Aura of Justice now comes online)
12: (Ability score increases hereon go to Strength)
Build variant 1 of 1: Half-Elf instead of Human:
15 point buy version: Str (14 + 2 =) 16 / Dex 07 / Con 12 / Int 12 / Wis 10 / Cha (16 + 2 =) 18; increase Charisma at levels 4 and 8 and Strength at all other 4n levels (except optionally increase Dexterity at 12 to get Reflex Save part way out of the dumpster).
20 point buy version: Str (14 + 2 =) 16 / Dex 08 / Con 12 / Int 14 / Wis 10 / Cha (16 + 2 =) 18; increase Charisma at level 4 and Strength at all other 4n levels.
Favored Class Bonus: Improve Aura size (don't use any archetype that trades out Auras, except to replace with other Auras).
Traits: Dangerously Curious (we need Use Magic Device in class), Campaign Trait.
Skill Ranks per level: 4 or 5 total: 2 for Paladin, 1 or 2 for Intelligence 12 or Intelligence 14 (15 Point Buy or 20 Point Buy, respectively), 1 for Cunning feat.
Skills to max (hence the Cunning feat below, and hence the INT 12): Diplomacy, Heal, Use Magic Device; if 20 Point Buy version add Knowledge (Religion).
Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb (1 point), Knowledge (Planes) (can leave for later, but eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Perception (1 point), Sense Motive (eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Spellcraft (1 point), Swim (1 point); if 15 Point Buy Version add Knowledge (Religion) (eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point).
Skills abandoned relative to Human version: Intimidate.
Feats abandoned relative to Human version: Persuasive (because we don't get Powerful Presence, which is Human-specific).
I also want to do a Strength-based build (maybe even to be a complementary member of the same party), but I don't have a build for that laying around, so that's going to have to wait a while . . . .
Cha-focused Pallies with 1 dip into Scaled Fist Monk are the basis for all ghost stories that DM's tell their kids.
^I'd be interested to see how those work.
Okay, I finally put together the almost-all-in Strength Paladin build I was wanting to do. I say almost-all-in because I avoided dumping as much as possible. If you're going to go Strength-based, might as well be REALLY Strong and carry a monster weapon. Actually, this kind of build would be better on a different martial chassis (for one thing, it would get fully online faster, especially on a Fighter), but putting it on a Paladin is just too awesome to pass up.
Paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light), Orc with Dayrunner alternate racial trait replacing Light Sensitivity but giving a penalty with ranged attacks (which are going to be terrible anyway).
15 Point Buy version: Str (15 + 4 =) / Dex 7 / Con 14 / Int (12 - 2 =) 10 / Wis (12 - 2 =) 10 / Cha (13 - 2 =) 11; increase Charisma at level 4 (you want a positive modifier for Divine Grace but don't have to keep increasing it for spells); increase Strength at all 4n levels thereafter.
20 Point Buy version: Str (15 + 4 =) / Dex 10 / Con 14 / Int (12 - 2 =) 10 / Wis (12 - 2 =) 10 / Cha (13 - 2 =) 11; increase Charisma at level 4 (you want a positive modifier for Divine Grace but don't have to keep increasing it for spells); increase Strength at all 4n levels thereafter.
Traits: Campaign Trait, Chip on the Shoulder (we need Intimidate in class).
Favored Class Bonus: All goes to Skills.
Skill Ranks per level: Total 3: 2 for Paladin, 1 for Favored Class Bonus (all of this goes here), 0 for INT 10.
Skills to max: Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion).
Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb (1 point), Knowledge (Planes) (can leave for later, but eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Perception (1 point), Sense Motive (eventually needs to be significantly more than 1 point), Spellcraft (1 point), Swim (1 point).
01: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe) -- 3d6 base damage to go with Vital Strike.
02: -
03: Intimidating Prowess -- make others fear your awesome muscle.
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Charisma.
05: Power Attack.
06: -
07: Vital Strike -- double your base damage.
08: Level 8 ability score increase goes to Strength.
09: Furious Focus -- no more Power Attack penalties most of the time.
10: -
11: Improved Vital Strike -- triple your base damage.
12: Level 12 ability score increase goes to Strength.
13: Weapon Trick (Two-Handed Weapon) -- gets you One-Handed Lunge and Two-Handed Menace out of the box, and later gets you Cleaving Smash.
14: -
15: Cleave -- hit an additional foe on your backswing, and thanks to Weapon Trick (Two-handed Weapon) giving you Cleaving Smash, you can use Vital Strike at the same time.
16: Level 16 ability score increase goes to Strength.
17: Greater Vital Strike -- quadruple your base damage, or use Improved Vital Strike with Cleave.
18: -
19: Great Cleave -- hit multiple additional foes on your backswing, and thanks to (Two-handed Weapon) giving you Cleaving Smash, you can use Improved Vital Strike at the same time.
20: Level 20 ability score increase goes to Strength.
This Paladin would actually be good to have in the same party as the Combat Medic Paladin I posted earlier, and free that one from needing to invest in Intimidate (thus making the Half-Elf version better, although the Human version would still be pretty compelling -- just reassign the trait and skill points accordingly).
Now I want to make an all-Paladin party . . . and an archetype exists to do a Dexterity-based Paladin, and another archetype exists to do a Wisdom-based Paladin.
Tortured Crusader VMC Barbarian. Gets Rage at the exact same time you get the Fatigued Mercy. I used a Goblin (with a Butchering Axe). Lol.
Tortured Crusader VMC Barbarian. Gets Rage at the exact same time you get the Fatigued Mercy. I used a Goblin (with a Butchering Axe). Lol.
If you want Rage on a Paladin I'd probably just take 1 level of Bloodrager and the Extra Rage feat . You get ~12 rounds of Rage per day, but with the Fatigue Mercy you can use those rounds only when you need to, sp that should be enough, and this only costs you 1 feat, not half your feat .
15 Point Buy version: Str (15 + 4 =) / Dex 7 / Con 14 / Int (12 - 2 =) 10 / Wis (12 - 2 =) 10 / Cha (13 - 2 =) 11; increase Charisma at level 4 (you want a positive modifier for Divine Grace but don't have to keep increasing it for spells); increase Strength at all 4n levels thereafter.
Looks bad man -_-
7 DEX is gonna hurt.
Also, why start with (15+4) STR and (13-2) CHA? You could start with (14+4) STR and (14-2) CHA.
EDIT: Or be a Human: S-(16+2), D-07, C-14, I-10, W-10, C-12. Same stats but you've only spent 13 points .
You get something similar with the 20 point buy, Human ends up better.
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Balanced. Going all in on one is inefficient pointwise and paladin gets a lot out of both stats. Either being slightly higher is fine but they should have roughly equal investment.
15 Point Buy version: Str (15 + 4 =) / Dex 7 / Con 14 / Int (12 - 2 =) 10 / Wis (12 - 2 =) 10 / Cha (13 - 2 =) 11; increase Charisma at level 4 (you want a positive modifier for Divine Grace but don't have to keep increasing it for spells); increase Strength at all 4n levels thereafter.Looks bad man -_-
7 DEX is gonna hurt.
Also, why start with (15+4) STR and (13-2) CHA? You could start with (14+4) STR and (14-2) CHA.
EDIT: Or be a Human: S-(16+2), D-07, C-14, I-10, W-10, C-12. Same stats but you've only spent 13 points .
You get something similar with the 20 point buy, Human ends up better.
You need 19 Strength to qualify for proficiency with the Butchering Axe for that juicy 3d6 base damage, which becomes 6d6 with Vital Strike, 9d6 with Improved Vital Strike (or 6d6 on each of 2 attacks with Cleave), and 12d6 with Greater Vital Strike (or 9d6 on each of 2 or more attacks with Great Cleave). And that's before you consider that you might be buffed with Enlarge Person or Lead Blades.