Looking at the Rangers Precision Edge and how it interacts with multiple hits and with multiple prey.
The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
Your Animal Companion(s) can use it too.
Most people I know interpret that to mean that your animal companion gets a separate application of precision damage to apply to the hunted prey. However that is not totally clear as the base rule refers to an instance with multiple specifics for the word "first". It is possible to read it many different ways. For example that there is one lot of precision damage that you can both trigger, but if your animal uses it them you can't also use it again.
It is possible to have two prey in the same round, by either
1) Changing it with a mid round Hunt Prey Action,
2) Or just having two prey with Double Prey It says When you use the Hunt Prey action, you can pick two creatures as your prey.
3) Or even more with Triple Threat
Which means if I target a second prey, is there a second lot of precision edge damage that I get to apply?
Prey is one of those beatiful words that can be referring to a singular creature or a category of creatures.
Is the limit on the first hit against any of your prey?
Is the limit on the first hit of each of your prey?
I can share my prey with others (animal companion/allys). Even though the prey we are both refering to are the same creatures. Do we each get to apply precision damage to our prey separately?
From balance reasons I would go with the most generous interpretation eitherwise Triple Threat is a pretty bad level 20 feat to share with allies.
How do other people see it?
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I go with Prey as including all marked creatures. I apply the precision damage once for the ranger first hitting his prey and once for the animal companion first hitting the prey. Otherwise, it's not much of an advantage for the animal companion.
The benefit is "the first time you hit your hunted prey..." If both you and your animal companion get it, then you get additional damage the first time you hit, and your companion gets additional damage the first time they hit. If the damage applies just once, the benefit would be marginal.
If you have more than one prey, you'd get the damage the first time you hit each prey. If you share the multiple preys and associated edge, everyone you share also gets the extra damage the first time they hit each prey as well.
At least that's how I read it.
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Yeah, "you" in this instance applies to whoever happens to be using it, implying that it is tracked separately for each such user.
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Yeah, "you" in this instance applies to whoever happens to be using it, implying that it is tracked separately for each such user.
But the Animal companion feat says
When you Hunt Prey, your animal companion gains the action's benefits and your hunter's edge benefit if you have one.Which can be read to implying you are sharing the one benefit. The wording is open. Because the precise subject is unclear.
I'm just playing devils advocate here, to no particluar purpose. I guess this is a lower priority thing to clear up.
And what about the second problem?
The first time you hit any of your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
The first time you hit each of your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
Do you read it as any or each?
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So I take it you also think shared prey and triple threat are ambiguous? Because they also mention granting your hunt prey benefits and hunter's edge to someone else.
If you give someone else the benefits of an action or ability, then they get the benefits of that action or ability, plain and simple. The Precision Hunter's Edge reads: "You have trained to aim for your prey’s weak points. The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage..."
Nowhere does the ability mention being limited by someone else's actions / attacks. It also doesn't say this damage can only be applied once per round. It simply says the first time you hit your hunted prey in a round something happens. And if the "you" mentioned repeatedly isn't the person benefiting from the ability, then the entire ability stops making sense.
As for the second question regarding multiple hunted prey and whether they can each take the precision damage, I agree it's ambiguous... kind of. Technically, if we assume that this rule is taking into account the fact that it's possible to have multiple hunted prey, then only the interpretation in which it can be used once is actually grammatically correct. However, I don't think it's necessarily safe to assume that, as many rules are defined without other feats in mind, and it's left to those feats to explain how they adjust the standard rules, which are 1 hunted prey at a time. So, yeah, a bit ambiguous for sure, at least as far as I can tell.
The precision damage is limited to 1/round for the ranger and 1/round for an animal companion. The benefit of double prey is in saving actions and interacting with other features such as critical specialization. Getting extra damage on each target you attack would be too much.
The precision damage is limited to 1/round for the ranger and 1/round for an animal companion. The benefit of double prey is in saving actions and interacting with other features such as critical specialization. Getting extra damage on each target you attack would be too much.
This definitely seems like the most sensible approach.
It's easy to read it as you get a single instance of 1d8 extra damage if you somehow get a hit on any hunted prey, with your weapon or animal companion.
I like the idea of both animal companions and multiple prey giving you extra instances of damage. Spreading your damage out over multiple targets generally doesn't help kill them faster so I don't see that as a problem and some animal companions could really use the help. It's definitely worth asking your GM before taking either type of feat.
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I think both the ranger and their animal companion can benefit from the extra damage.
In terms of multiple prey, I think it applies to each individual prey. So two hunted prey, two opportunities for each damage. I don't have anything to back that up, just the way I read it.
I think both the ranger and their animal companion can benefit from the extra damage.
In terms of multiple prey, I think it applies to each individual prey. So two hunted prey, two opportunities for each damage. I don't have anything to back that up, just the way I read it.
I agree with the above. It seems on par with a barbarian striking another target with the same MAP issues. Double prey looks like a boost for the precision ranger, while Second sting would be a comparable boost for Flurry rangers. And yes, I'm disregarding the action economy benefit here, but that advantage depends on circumstances (lower levels vs boss fights).
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Definitely agreement that every user of Precision Edge tracks their usage separately.
But no concensus on multiple hunted prey. With multiple people favouring each of the positions: "any" and "each" and "its unlcear".
For Flurry and Outwit there isn't a problem but Precision
is a bit of an edge case pun intended and up to the GM to determine.
An official clarification would be nice.
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I had always read the Precision Edge as only applying to one attack per round, no matter who makes that attack. Hadn't really looked into higher level feats for Ranger though. The argument for allowing it to apply separately to anyone who can take advantage of the Hunter's Edge does make sense.
I think it is too much to allow it to apply separately to each hunted creature. You shouldn't get the full initial precision damage again just because you switch targets. It is a level 17 ability to get a reduced amount of precision damage for a second attack during the round, and a 19th level ability to get an even more reduced amount for a third attack.
Yeah, precision applying separately to each hunted creature falls into the "too good to be true" category.
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Let's not forget that the first time hunting two prey is relevant outside of taking an action in the middle of your turn to switch prey is level 12 and requires a specific feat (double prey). Personally I don't think it falls under too good to be true, especially since spreading out damage usually isn't a great idea anyway. Don't get me wrong, I still think it should probably track the entirety of your prey, but I wouldn't fault someone for reading it as being different for each creature hunted, nor do I think it'd be game-breaking.
The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
The bit that makes that tricky is that prey can be read singular or plural. Personally, I'm inclined to read it as plural in the case of double prey. So if you hit your first prey and then hit your second prey, you've already damaged your prey on the first attack and don't get precision on the second.
Meanwhile, an animal companion can't share the benefit of your Edge if you've already dealt the precision damage and that precludes the animal from getting it.
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The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
The bit that makes that tricky is that prey can be read singular or plural. Personally, I'm inclined to read it as plural in the case of double prey. So if you hit your first prey and then hit your second prey, you've already damaged your prey on the first attack and don't get precision on the second.
Meanwhile, an animal companion can't share the benefit of your Edge if you've already dealt the precision damage and that precludes the animal from getting it.
Well if this is the way you play Animal Companions then this becomes a much more serious basic issue on the Ranger.
Normally Animal Companions get a benefit from Flurry, but with this interpretation in most situations they aren't going to get a benefit from Precision as their master will have already hit.
I think the thread so far is mostly disagreeing with you though.
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The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage.
The bit that makes that tricky is that prey can be read singular or plural. Personally, I'm inclined to read it as plural in the case of double prey. So if you hit your first prey and then hit your second prey, you've already damaged your prey on the first attack and don't get precision on the second.
Meanwhile, an animal companion can't share the benefit of your Edge if you've already dealt the precision damage and that precludes the animal from getting it.
Well if this is the way you play Animal Companions then this becomes a much more serious basic issue on the Ranger.
Normally Animal Companions get a benefit from Flurry, but with this interpretation in most situations they aren't going to get a benefit from Precision as their master will have already hit.
I think the thread so far is mostly disagreeing with you though.
Right.
Who would want the ability to give their AC bonus damage when it would usually give them zero bonus damage?It'd be a poor choice. And the ramifications would make Shared Prey a horrible feat too (and high level at that).
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Further really what is the point of sharing your edge with multiple allies? Shared Prey and Triple Threats abilities to share the ability with allies become very marginal if they can only get it if you miss all your attacks.
I don't have a rules argument for you, as I think the rules text is totally loose. Balance wise what you are saying doesn't seem right to me.
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Further really what is the point of sharing your edge with multiple allies? Shared Prey and Triple Threats abilities to share the ability with allies become very marginal if they can only get it if you miss all your attacks.
I don't have a rules argument for you, as I think the rules text is totally loose. Balance wise what you are saying doesn't seem right to me.
Don't worry, I got u fam:
The rules argument is that the animal companion gain's the benefits of your hunter's edge. The benefits of your hunter's edge are that "The first time you do x in a round, you get y"There are 2 interpretations of that that are consistent with the English language:
1. You = the character. Therefore, the animal companion gains the benefit that when the character does x, the character gets y... Okay, but how is that a benefit to the animal companion? With this admittedly obviously false, yet grammatically possible interpretation, even the flurry ranger's benefit wouldn't work.
2. You = the creature gaining the benefits of the ability. Therefore, the animal companion gets the benefit that the first time they do x, they get y. Whether someone else has done x that round or not is completely irrelevant.
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Meanwhile, an animal companion can't share the benefit of your Edge if you've already dealt the precision damage and that precludes the animal from getting it.
Can't agree at all. From a practical standpoint this makes sharing your edge almost worth nothing at all for precision.
From a RAW standpoint, you share the benefit of your edge and the benefit is "The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage."
If you haven't hit your hunted prey in a round, you're still eligible to benefit from it. If your animal companion has hit something and you haven't, you haven't hit your hunted prey. That also applies if the 'you' is the animal companion or another ally for their benefits.
I don't think I've ever had a high enough level Precision Ranger for this particular issue to crop up with Double Prey, but I do believe I've had a ranger who re-hunted a separate target. I tend to agree with AVGDamage in this case, applying the Precision damage to individual prey, rather than treating it like a "pool" of dice that is expended on the first target.
Doesn't seem overly "broken" as it will only be relevant on a 2nd or further attack in a turn, and you obviously aren't a Flurry ranger so will likely take a -4 or more on that attack.
I guess there could be some corner case scenario where a Ranger may take a dedication like say Mauler and take Avalanche Strike and Triple Threat at 20th level to hit 3 different targets with 3d8 extra precision damage, but that is... pretty specific.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. The point I was making is that the animal companion should be able to get the precision damage even if you already have that round, because if it can't it isn't really getting the benefit of the Hunter's Edge.
My stance has always been that the animal companion can get the precision damage during the same round you do. I was trying to illustrate that arguing otherwise didn't make sense but it was late and I was tired.
I don't think allowing precision against multiple prey target seems to good to be true. It is a few d8s spread out at high levels? The extra d8s after the first target are probably still coming from an attack with MAP, making them less likely to be applied?
I don't think allowing precision against multiple prey target seems to good to be true. It is a few d8s spread out at high levels? The extra d8s after the first target are probably still coming from an attack with MAP, making them less likely to be applied?
It isn't a huge deal for balance, no. But it also isn't likely to come up much. So I wouldn't personally push the issue much either way.
Honestly, Double is more a thing you get so you can start to share your prey with other PCs at level 14 or whatever.
Precision already has a perceived advantage over flurry. I don’t think it needs another boost in comparison. A couple of d8s once per round is plenty and the Edge is not the only benefit of having a creature designated as prey.
Precision already has a perceived advantage over flurry. I don’t think it needs another boost in comparison. A couple of d8s once per round is plenty and the Edge is not the only benefit of having a creature designated as prey.
I've had the opposite experience. Most people I talk to tend to value Flurry over Precision because it's benefit can allow for so much more damage over a lot of attacks. Especially once Haste becomes readily available, you can have a ranger who has a reasonable chance of landing 3/5 possible attacks a turn vs even a Fighter who struggles to land their 3rd and so on attacks.
Precision on the other hand is better for single accurate attacks, something a lot of players don't tend to go for in a class that has built in access to two for one action attacks at 1st.
Eh, it is just a playstyle thing. Flurry is better of you want to be a machine gun turret, precision is better if you want to do... Well, almost anything else.
Flurry is better if what you want to do is strike strike strike strike.
Precision is better if you are going to mix it up a bit.
I've had the opposite experience. Most people I talk to tend to value Flurry over Precision because it's benefit can allow for so much more damage over a lot of attacks. Especially once Haste becomes readily available, you can have a ranger who has a reasonable chance of landing 3/5 possible attacks a turn vs even a Fighter who struggles to land their 3rd and so on attacks.
Precision on the other hand is better for single accurate attacks, something a lot of players don't tend to go for in a class that has built in access to two for one action attacks at 1st.
This is the gut reaction I had and a lot of people I know had, that flurry is obviously better because precision is a "one big attack" skill on a class that gets extra attacks on the cheap... but when I started to break it down the tipping point for flurry is more like on your third or fourth attack (depending on what kind of damage modifiers you have, bigger damage mods and more die push the numbers toward flurry faster) which really means you need to start dedicating your entire turn just to attacking before flurry starts to look appealing and that 'so much more damage' sometimes isn't even there.
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Think of Precision as a Vital Strike build. You want large damage die since you get only one attack per round. It's great against enemies with resistances. Flurry is more like how archers or two weapon fighters were built, focusing on as many attacks as possible. It's great against enemies with weaknesses.
Two different builds, both viable. Neither is "better" than the other.
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Think of Precision as a Vital Strike build. You want large damage die since you get only one attack per round. It's great against enemies with resistances. Flurry is more like how archers or two weapon fighters were built, focusing on as many attacks as possible. It's great against enemies with weaknesses.
That first part is backwards though. Flurry rangers value raw damage per hit more than precision because they're aiming to land as many hits as possible, whereas precision gets a higher percentage of their damage from sources independent of their weapon (though in both cases more damage is more damage and therefore good). You're right that flurry is especially strong if they can exploit weaknesses though.
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Precision values that one strong hit, since they get a boost to it. Bringing a d12 weapon to add in that extra d8 on top makes it a really juicy hit. They can increase their odds prior by spending their extra actions to demoralize or something. After the first hit, the others don't really matter until you get their Masterful Hunter upgrade.
Of course Flurry would want more raw damage, but they get much better hit rates on Agile weapons, so are very likely to use those which have a lower damage die, especially later when they get Impossible Flurry. Making 6 attacks at only -2 MAP is really tempting for a lot of people.
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I did some math. Level 20 Flurry and Precision Ranger, vs Balor Demon. +7 Str for both for consistency. Obviously a Flurry ranger would be preferable since they have a weakness to exploit, but I just wanted a creature we all knew, and I'm only comparing vs the AC. Also no bonus damage on crits other than doubling.
I did two runs on Flurry, one with Agile and one with non agile, using Impossible Flurry with Accurate Flurry. With an Agile weapon, 4d6+13, averages 16.2 on the two first hits and 14.85 on the next 4, for an average of 91.8 damage from all 6 attacks. With a non-Agile, 4d8+13, the average comes to 89.9. The -10% chance to hit on 4 attacks is what really pulls the average down.
For a Precision Ranger, I gave them Power Attack for a little boost since it's easy enough to get. with a d12 weapon, 4d12+13+3d8+3d12, it averages out to 46.8. Definitely much worse there, but I haven't done much research into this so bear with me here.
Lets take these averages and compare them to a creature with Resistances instead, say a Pit Fiend. They resist 15 from every attack, so assuming you don't have a silver weapon, you'll have to reduce the average damage from each hit by 15, and most of the time you do no damage with Flurry. Precision is the clear winner here.
So as I said, Flurry is great if you want to do tons of low damage attacks and exploit weaknesses, and Precision is great if you just want to do a ton of damage in one strike to bypass a resistance.
On average with 3 Strikes, both Flurry and Precision do around the same damage, to do more, Flurry needs to make 4 strikes. This is of course considering that they are not triggering a weakness.