I need some serious help on Undead PCs, using only the Undead Archetypes from Book of the Dead. I recently found myself arguing with my GM over some basic rules of Undead and I need some help clarifying some things with the help of the community. Which you guys seem to be very smart and knowledgeable.
1) I do not see the Undead Trait is actually added to PC Undead using just Archetypes. So does this mean that they are not immune to other none-Positive (Vitality) healing effects? I.e Soothe and Elixirs of Life.
2) Where does it say RAW (Rules as Written) that Undead PCs are not longer considered living? For the purposes of stuff like treat wounds or other living creatures only effects. Does a PC Undead for example NEED Stitch Flesh to use Medicine?
3) Does it say we are treated as Undead for effects such as the Spell Searing Light? I do know RAI (Rules of intended) yes.
Sorry, I am not dumb I just need some help here. I know RAW vs RAI and all the jazz but with this recent argument, I feel I need some help to just set my mind at ease.
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The Dedication feat at level 2 say:
"You gain the <Ghoul/mummy/ghost> and undead traits and the basic undead benefits."
Once living, these creatures were infused after death with negative energy and soul-corrupting evil magic. When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by positive energy, are healed by negative energy, and don't benefit from healing effects .
Belive that "don't benefit from healing effects" would encompass even non-positive healing effects
The archetypes and skeleton ancestry that follow can give the basic undead benefits detailed here. These are somewhat different from the normal undead creature abilities to better fit player characters.
Necril: You know the Necril language.
Undead Vision: You gain low-light vision, or you gain darkvision if your ancestry already has low-light vision.
Negative Healing: You are damaged by positive damage and aren't healed by positive healing effects. You don't take negative damage and are healed by negative effects that heal undead.
Negative Survival: Unlike normal undead, you aren't destroyed when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Instead, powerful negative energy attempts to keep you from being destroyed even in dire straits. You are knocked out and begin dying when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Because you're undead, many methods of bringing someone back from dying, such as stabilize, don't benefit you. When you would die, you're destroyed rather than dead, just like other undead.
Immunity to Death Effects: You're immune to death effects. This keeps you from being automatically killed or from having your dying value automatically increase, but it doesn't make you immune to other parts of the spell or effect. For example, you can still take mental damage and become frightened by a phantasmal killer, you just don't instantly die from it.
Disease and Poison Protection: You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws (or any other defense) against disease and poison.
Undead Hunger: While you don't eat or drink the same food as humanoids do, you usually have thirsts and hungers related to your undead state, such as a ghoul's hunger for humanoid flesh, a zombie's craving for brains, and a vampire's desire for blood. Additionally, while you don't sleep, you enter a state of quiescence for at least 4 hours a day to recuperate, which lets your undead flesh reknit and recover naturally. Many undead choose to rest when the sun is at its highest.
For Nr:2 i dont see that it calls it out its more implied with things like "Once living" that you are not alive.
For Nr:3 you have the undead trait, not sure the spell that targets undeads need anything else.
Basicly you gain the undead trait and all its glory then basic undead benefits overwrites some parts of it.
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Undead PCs do technically gain the Undead trait - which would make them no longer be living creatures. But the mechanics of that trait are for the most part replaced by the rules for the Basic Undead Benefits.
There are a lot of glitches and oddities in Negative Healing and Undead player options that have to be ruled on by the GM and the players at the table.
Some of them are going to be getting better after the Remaster. For example the preview of the new Undead trait that only prevents vitality healing (instead of everything with the Healing trait) and would allow Soothe to heal Undead like it is supposed to.
Thank you, I was 100% RIGHT originally.
1) I do not see the Undead Trait is actually added to PC Undead using just Archetypes. So does this mean that they are not immune to other none-Positive (Vitality) healing effects? I.e Soothe and Elixirs of Life.
Undead are immune to all healing, whether it comes from positive energy, non-positive energy (like alchemy), or mundane (like Medicine checks). They can only be healed by negative energy and special abilities/feats (like Stitch Flesh).
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2) Where does it say RAW (Rules as Written) that Undead PCs are not longer considered living?
Right here. The undead trait specifically says that an Undead Creature was "once living" and "infused after death". So undead are definitely not living.
Undead
Source Core Rulebook pg. 637 4.0
Once living, these creatures were infused after death with negative energy and soul-corrupting evil magic. When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by positive energy, are healed by negative energy, and don't benefit from healing effects.
2) For the purposes of stuff like treat wounds or other living creatures only effects. Does a PC Undead for example NEED Stitch Flesh to use Medicine?
Yes, you would need Stitch Flesh to perform medicine checks on Undead.
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3) Does it say we are treated as Undead for effects such as the Spell Searing Light? I do know RAI (Rules of intended) yes.
Yes, if you have the undead trait, you're definitely undead. And if you get hit with a Searing Light spell, or any other spell that causes specific effects to undead, you would suffer any of these extra conditions/damage noted in the spell description.
PFS Standard
Searing LightSpell 3
Attack Evocation Fire Good Light
Source Core Rulebook pg. 367 4.0
Traditions divine, primal
Bloodlines angelic, psychopomp
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 120 feet; Targets 1 creatureYou shoot a blazing ray of light tinged with holy energy. Make a ranged spell attack. The ray deals 5d6 fire damage. If the target is a fiend or undead, you deal an extra 5d6 good damage.
Critical Success The target takes double fire damage, as well as double good damage if a fiend or undead.
Success The target takes full damage.If the light passes through an area of magical darkness or targets a creature affected by magical darkness, searing light attempts to counteract the darkness. If you need to determine whether the light passes through an area of darkness, draw a line between yourself and the spell's target.
Heightened (+1) The fire damage increases by 2d6, and the good damage against fiends and undead increases by 2d6.
Actually turns out traits are abilities with a small box called Trait Abilities, so the Playing PC Undead of PC Undead do not have standard Undead Abilities now just throws this entirely out of the window because the only thing that seems to be correct now is.
1) Undead Trait = Not Live but Ignore all abilities. Also tends to figure out what effect happens.
2) Basic Undead Benefits is the only abilities you get.
3) Regardless of Immunity of healing effect, you can be healed with everything non-vitality (positive) even before the Remastered.
I do like the help you guys posted. I feel enlightened on many different accounts now. I shall remember this for when and if I will run a Undead focus campaign.
1) I do not see the Undead Trait is actually added to PC Undead using just Archetypes. So does this mean that they are not immune to other none-Positive (Vitality) healing effects? I.e Soothe and Elixirs of Life.Undead are immune to all healing, whether it comes from positive energy, non-positive energy (like alchemy), or mundane (like Medicine checks). They can only be healed by negative energy and special abilities/feats (like Stitch Flesh).
This was partially corrected in the 4th printing Errata.
Page 370: The soothe spell can now target “1 willing creature” instead of “1 willing living creature”. It can be used to heal undead, constructs, and so on. (This change matches the rules noted in Book of the Dead and Blood Lords Player’s Guide.) Note that it has the mental trait, so it still doesn’t heal or otherwise benefit mindless creatures like zombies or animated objects.
But it didn't actually address the immunity line in the Undead trait.
However, the Remaster will (See the link in my previous post).
It does still remain to be seen if Stitch Flesh will continue to exist in the Remaster or not. But Soothe and other non-Vitality Healing effects absolutely will heal Undead creatures including both PCs and NPC enemies/allies.
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Yeah I can't wait for the re-master, it looks promising ;)
Thank you, sorry for the parts I missed, I am vision impaired.
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Here is the issue that I have. Are Void HEALING and Void DAMAGE the same thing?
Some Void DAMAGE can harm undead. So what determines this?
Does a spell HAVE TO say Void HEALING to heal undead? Or does all Void energy heal undead?
My interpretation is that if a spell doesn't specifically say it is void healing of undead, then it does not heal undead. But the Undead PC Ancestry wording is vague on this point.
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No, they are not the same thing. Damage does not heal. Healing does not damage.
Some effects (like Heal and Harm spells) state that they can do both damage AND healing.
Otherwise, they dont ever cross over like that.
This is actually seen in the Undead PC Ancestry and the void/negative healing abilities that put a stark difference between being immune to Void damage and is healed by "Void Effects that heal undead". Conversely anything that would purely heal an undead would not have any effect on a living creature.
A creature with void healing draws health from void energy rather than vitality energy. It is damaged by vitality damage and is not healed by healing vitality effects. It does not take void damage, and it is healed by void effects that heal undead.
Unless that living creature has Nudge the Scales and is using it to have Void Healing... in which case you get the silly edge case where Heal can't heal them (because Void healing) and Harm can't heal them (because they're not undead and so Harm's doesn't consider them a valid target for the healing effect).
A sensible GM isn't going to run that RAW, especially if a player is doing it to try to make life easier by aligning their healing with the rest of the party (either a living PC getting void healing or an undead PC getting vitality healing).
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Some Void DAMAGE can harm undead. So what determines this?
I'm not aware of any Undead that would be injured by Void Damage. All of the ones that I am aware of have either the Void Healing creature ability or Void Healing from Basic Undead Benefits depending on if they are a monster or a PC.
Both of which state that the creature does not take damage from Void Damage.
There may be some specific creatures that have overrides to that, but that is the general rules.
Does a spell HAVE TO say Void HEALING to heal undead? Or does all Void energy heal undead?
I'm with HammerJack. Healing never causes damage and Damage never heals. This keeps things nicely symmetrical.
No, you can't use Vitality Lash to heal up living party members during or after a battle. For the same reason that you can't use Void Warp to heal up your Undead party members.
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Some Void DAMAGE can harm undead. So what determines this?No, you can't use Vitality Lash to heal up living party members during or after a battle. For the same reason that you can't use Void Warp to heal up your Undead party members.
Best answer and example. Thank you.
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Less a consensus, and more that people who take the sane reading got sick of arguing about it years ago. I wouldn't expect to run into that ruling at many actual tables.
Still plenty of effects that probably should say they target creatures with void healing but... this is where we are now.I think it's much easier to write that void healing makes effects which target undead and/or living specifically to count you as undead. Or something like that. In one place, not mentioning this in each undead targeting effect.
Agreed.
Well, mostly. There are two places to change instead of only one: The Void Healing rules for both the creature ability and PC's Basic Undead Benefits. Just have it state that creatures with Void Healing are equivalent to Undead for effects that target Undead or change their behavior selectively for Undead (such as the Heal and Harm spells that change their behavior).
I checked, and Basic Undead Benefits gives Void healing (Negative healing). Because, yes of course they should.Agreed.
Well, mostly. There are two places to change instead of only one: The Void Healing rules for both the creature ability and PC's Basic Undead Benefits.
It gives an ability that is also named Void Healing, but then it also defines it again. At the very least it needs to be changed to directly reference the Void Healing creature ability instead of providing its own definition (which happens to be identical currently).
Imagine a scenario where the Void Healing creature ability is changed to explicitly state that it qualifies a creature for being targeted and affected as though they are an Undead creature ... but the Basic Undead Benefits are not. Now, in that scenario, what would be your answer to someone who asked if their PC that has the Basic Undead Benefits version of Void Healing is able to be healed by the Harm spell?
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I checked, and Basic Undead Benefits gives Void healing (Negative healing). Because, yes of course they should.Agreed.
Well, mostly. There are two places to change instead of only one: The Void Healing rules for both the creature ability and PC's Basic Undead Benefits.
It gives an ability that is also named Void Healing, but then it also defines it again. At the very least it needs to be changed to directly reference the Void Healing creature ability instead of providing its own definition (which happens to be identical currently).
Imagine a scenario where the Void Healing creature ability is changed to explicitly state that it qualifies a creature for being targeted and affected as though they are an Undead creature ... but the Basic Undead Benefits are not. Now, in that scenario, what would be your answer to someone who asked if their PC that has the Basic Undead Benefits version of Void Healing is able to be healed by the Harm spell?
Well, uh, unlike a dhampir or some other living creature with Void Healing, undead PCs are undead. They don't need to be affected "as though" they were.
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In a matter, I think the easiest thing Paizo could do with the least amount of work is to put out a clarification on the FAQ, But changing Void Healing in two places is alot better than changing alot of targeted effects to say "Undead creature or one that has void healing"
We also know that Heal changings its behavior depending on undead or living is inconsequential to the Rules as Intended because the logic from the earlier mentioned video and the official response presented is that Heal and Harm does both 'parts' of the effect at the same regardless.
The thing is that those spells don't need a targeting restriction at all. It doesn't need to say "Targets undead or a creature with void healing." Vitality damage itself already covers this by only damaging things that take vitality damage (like undead and those with void healing).
It's the same with Heal/Harm. The targeting restrictions are both redundant and create a problem that wouldn't exist if they're not there. Heal already isn't harming living things because they don't take vitality damage (Remaster Bones Oracle and Nudge the Scales users notwithstanding).
The targeting restrictions seem meant to help players understand who they can use this on, but they actually create these edge cases that don't exist if they're removed.