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Hello Everyone,
I am in a group that is doing the Extinction Curse AP. We are all 9th lvl. and struggling a bit. We just switched over from 1st ed., so we are all still learning the game. However, our rogue player seems very frustrated with 2nd ed. One of the issues is that the damage he does has not increased for many levels; btw, all of the melee have +1 striking and potency runes on their weapons. Moreover, he seems to think some of the changes in the game rules are rather obtuse and arbitrary. For example, the rogue cannot use his thievery skill to look for traps.
Can anyone suggest any ways that the rogue can increases his damage. He already puts bleeds on his targets, but any ideas on how he can increase his base damage?
Also, does the damage curve go up for players at 10th level?
Thank you and have a great day!
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At that level, the next thing to get is a weapon property rune. Flaming or Frost or whatever best fits the character.
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Little checklist to make sure nothing's being forgotten - he should have an attack of +18, and be doing damage of 2d(whatever damage dice his weapon does) + 2d6 sneak attack + 1d6 property rune (unless he chose a non damage rune) + 2 from weapon specialization + whatever damage from whatever stat his weapon benefits from (if he's a thief rogue he should get damage from dex). Other than that, maybe he's not getting sneak attack off enough? Looking into different ways of applying flat footed or other penalties to enemies helped my rogue players with their damage.
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At 9th level, your rogue should be doing around 4d6+2 base damage (1d6 weapon die + 1d6 striking rune + 2d6 sneak attack + 2 specialization) plus their stat bonus (dex for thieves in melee, str for other rackets in melee), which should be fairly comparable to other melee characters.
As Rex mentioned, a property rune will add some damage, though I'd personally prioritize an energy type the party is otherwise short on (My thief eventually took Frost, as we already had fire, acid, and electricity covered by other PCs).
You mention putting bleeds on your foes: If you are referring to the Twist the Knife (Rogue 06) feat, you should be aware that it pretty much sucks and generally shouldn't be taken (its damage is just pathetic).
Your rogue player might want to check out the in-depth guide in https://paizo.com/threads/rzs435rq?Tarondors-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Second
EDIT: Forgot to mention the Rogue should have a 19 in its attack stat at this point (str for ruffians, dex for the other rackets): Being behind on this stat can really hurt your damage.
Also, finding traps has been Perception based since Perception was officially added in D&D 3.0 (so, about 20 years now)...
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Rogues are one of the better damage dealers in the game, their disadvantage vs. fighters etc is weaker defense. Rogues get Legendary in Perception naturally so not getting to use Thievery to check for traps should not be a problem, even with low wisdom.
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Scaling damage is an issue in this game - your damage compared to an equal level foe’s hp descales massively until level 5, then it descales slowly for the rest of the game. Damage property runes (I recommend flaming, frost and holy for weaknesses) help out a bit but the best way to get extra damage is through reaction attacks which will actually upscale your damage as you get them.
Luckily, rogue is in a good position - having one of the best reaction attacks in the game - Opportune Backstab and the ability to use it twice with Preparation. I’d suggest getting both of these feats - they more than double your damage when compared to striking 3 times (Strike-Strike-Strike vs Strike-Strike-Prep-Backstab-Backstab) and even Strike-Prep-Backstab-Backstab is 80% more damage (on average) than 3 strikes.
Hello Everyone,
I am in a group that is doing the Extinction Curse AP. We are all 9th lvl. and struggling a bit. We just switched over from 1st ed., so we are all still learning the game. However, our rogue player seems very frustrated with 2nd ed. One of the issues is that the damage he does has not increased for many levels; btw, all of the melee have +1 striking and potency runes on their weapons. Moreover, he seems to think some of the changes in the game rules are rather obtuse and arbitrary. For example, the rogue cannot use his thievery skill to look for traps.
Can anyone suggest any ways that the rogue can increases his damage. He already puts bleeds on his targets, but any ideas on how he can increase his base damage?
Also, does the damage curve go up for players at 10th level?Thank you and have a great day!
I think a big think to keep in mind is that relative damage between editions (that is that amount of damage capable of being dealt by a single player relative to an enemy's HP) was intentionally decreased. By level 10 in PF1 a full attack from anyone was that was dedicated to martial pursuits was very likely to kill a lot of enemies, especially if you had a bard or other party members buffing that person.
In PF2 that's simply not the case. You need buffing to put your damage output to a level that "feels respectable" (IMO, and it's mostly about your to hit bonus) and even then it will probably take 3 characters attacking the enemy to kill them. It's an intentional paradigm shift.
If your players were very fond of the PF1 paradigm they may find that PF2 isn't their jam and your group should have an open discussion about that.
Outside of that, your rogue (when sneak attacking) should be outputting just as much (if not more damage) than a fighter but with a worse chance to hit and substantial weaker defenses.
To second what Claxon said, PF1/3.5 was a game for a Group of Heroes. PF2e requires a Heroic Group to be successful. Using trip attacks, demoralise, positioning, and all sorts of tricks and strategies that do no damage on their own, but set up the character and the party to do a lot more damage as a whole, while receiving less themselves.
It sounds like the rogue needs to understand he is no longer the single target nuclear option that he was, and should start looking at all the ways he can improve the group's output as a whole while also dealing respectable damage.
Something else that might be tilting the perception is if you started at level 9, as he wouldn't have had a chance to get used to the new scaling. One of the biggest things my group found was that direct translation of their characters felt wrong in the new system, and decided as a table to start again from level 1 to learn and get a feel for it.
Not sure what his build is.
The optimal damage rogue build is a Thief Racket build with an elven curve blade. This will give you a d8 weapon with Forceful with Finesse.
You'll want the Gang up feat at lvl 6 for easy flanking. And at lvl 10 Precise Debilitation which allows you to maintain an extra 2d6 precision damage on top of your regular sneak attack using Debilitating Strike. Opportune Backstab at lvl 8 is also a must have for pure damage.
Remember to use your skills for flat-footing opponents. Deception allows you to flat-foot a target once a combat. You can buy Confabulator to use it more often.
Build up your wisdom using your 4 ability boosts per five levels. Legendary Perception is a great innate ability. You will find traps as well as anyone in the group with it.
Make an elf or half-elf to gain access to Elven Curve Blade as an ancestry feat.
So your build should look like this:
Lvl 1: Twin Feint
Lvl 2: Mobility (avoid AoOs moving)
Lvl 4: Pick whatever
Lvl 6: Gang up
Lvl 8: Opportune Backstab
Lvl 10: Precise Debilitation
By lvl 10 with a +1 striking weapon with energy rune, your damage will look something like the following:
2d8+1d6 energy +2d6 Sneak +6 = 25 an attack on the first attack
Activate 2d6 bonus debilitation until the end of next turn.
That will boost you to 32 a hit. Then Opportune Backstab as needed. If you get a critical hit, would be around 64 damage a hit.
As you get more striking and energy runes with increased sneak attack dice, it will keep getting better.
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The optimal damage dealing Rogue would be Ruffian actually... their unique debilitation is better than the thief one for damage.
Not sure what his build is.
The optimal damage rogue build is a Thief Racket build with an elven curve blade. This will give you a d8 weapon with Forceful with Finesse.
You'll want the Gang up feat at lvl 6 for easy flanking. And at lvl 10 Precise Debilitation which allows you to maintain an extra 2d6 precision damage on top of your regular sneak attack using Debilitating Strike. Opportune Backstab at lvl 8 is also a must have for pure damage.
Remember to use your skills for flat-footing opponents. Deception allows you to flat-foot a target once a combat. You can buy Confabulator to use it more often.
Build up your wisdom using your 4 ability boosts per five levels. Legendary Perception is a great innate ability. You will find traps as well as anyone in the group with it.
Make an elf or half-elf to gain access to Elven Curve Blade as an ancestry feat.
So your build should look like this:
Lvl 1: Twin Feint
Lvl 2: Mobility (avoid AoOs moving)
Lvl 4: Pick whatever
Lvl 6: Gang up
Lvl 8: Opportune Backstab
Lvl 10: Precise Debilitation
By lvl 10 with a +1 striking weapon with energy rune, your damage will look something like the following:
2d8+1d6 energy +2d6 Sneak +6 = 25 an attack on the first attack
Activate 2d6 bonus debilitation until the end of next turn.
That will boost you to 32 a hit. Then Opportune Backstab as needed. If you get a critical hit, would be around 64 damage a hit.
As you get more striking and energy runes with increased sneak attack dice, it will keep getting better.
Twin Feint doesn't work with two-handed weapons. Trap Finder or You're Next would be a better first level option.
Twin Feint doesn't work with two-handed weapons. Trap Finder or You're Next would be a better first level option.Not sure what his build is.
The optimal damage rogue build is a Thief Racket build with an elven curve blade. This will give you a d8 weapon with Forceful with Finesse.
You'll want the Gang up feat at lvl 6 for easy flanking. And at lvl 10 Precise Debilitation which allows you to maintain an extra 2d6 precision damage on top of your regular sneak attack using Debilitating Strike. Opportune Backstab at lvl 8 is also a must have for pure damage.
Remember to use your skills for flat-footing opponents. Deception allows you to flat-foot a target once a combat. You can buy Confabulator to use it more often.
Build up your wisdom using your 4 ability boosts per five levels. Legendary Perception is a great innate ability. You will find traps as well as anyone in the group with it.
Make an elf or half-elf to gain access to Elven Curve Blade as an ancestry feat.
So your build should look like this:
Lvl 1: Twin Feint
Lvl 2: Mobility (avoid AoOs moving)
Lvl 4: Pick whatever
Lvl 6: Gang up
Lvl 8: Opportune Backstab
Lvl 10: Precise Debilitation
By lvl 10 with a +1 striking weapon with energy rune, your damage will look something like the following:
2d8+1d6 energy +2d6 Sneak +6 = 25 an attack on the first attack
Activate 2d6 bonus debilitation until the end of next turn.
That will boost you to 32 a hit. Then Opportune Backstab as needed. If you get a critical hit, would be around 64 damage a hit.
As you get more striking and energy runes with increased sneak attack dice, it will keep getting better.
Definitely recommend changing it out once you get Elven Curve Blade.
The optimal damage dealing Rogue would be Ruffian actually... their unique debilitation is better than the thief one for damage.
It's nice for the group for sure. Probably on par with the thief rogue for single target damage. You have to get your group focused on it.
Ruffian and thief both pretty close if you build right.
Dex a slightly better stat as it synergizes well with your best save. The single target damage is a few points higher, though Ruffian can be better for the group.
Rogues in PF1, by level 10, were a disaster, lucky to get one hit in per turn. Even unchained, the rogue was a serious trap option that never benefited from more than 4 levels in the class.
The PF2 rogue is regularly the highest damage dealer in the party. A whole lot depends upon build type, the party composition, and how the rogue approaches combat. Some builds are much better at trying to focus on getting one or two decent hits a round and positioning themselves to be hidden at the end of the round, while others want to stay up in the thick of things with a tanky champion protecting them. Being able to switch hit as a rogue can be very powerful, and taking advantage of surprise strike, by being able to make 2 or 3 ranged attacks without having to move into danger the first round can make the rogue feel a lot more powerful. By level 9, it really shouldn't be difficult to have a striking ranged weapon as well as a striking melee weapon.
Some rogues go for thrown weapons instead and that can work well too, but it depends a lot more on build. If the rogue is currently moving once, attacking once and then twisting the blade, then they are probably not going to be keeping up damage wise with the rest of the party, especially if the party is a melee party and finishing off enemies that are bleeding within a round or two.
Twist the knife can be decent on a party built to hit and run, leaving enemies to have to decide whether to waste rounds trying to stop the bleeding on top of having to seek for hidden rogues and moving to keep up, but if the party is the more traditional tanky melee party, it is going to look like a very unimpressive ability.
Hello Everyone,
I am in a group that is doing the Extinction Curse AP. We are all 9th lvl. and struggling a bit. We just switched over from 1st ed., so we are all still learning the game. However, our rogue player seems very frustrated with 2nd ed. One of the issues is that the damage he does has not increased for many levels; btw, all of the melee have +1 striking and potency runes on their weapons. Moreover, he seems to think some of the changes in the game rules are rather obtuse and arbitrary. For example, the rogue cannot use his thievery skill to look for traps.
Can anyone suggest any ways that the rogue can increases his damage. He already puts bleeds on his targets, but any ideas on how he can increase his base damage?
Also, does the damage curve go up for players at 10th level?Thank you and have a great day!
As others have stated, property runes at 9th level are both useful and technically expected as probably your 8th level permanent item for your +1 Striking weapon of choice, unless there is another permanent item you'd rather have, which is possible. A Rogue not getting Sneak Attack on a regular basis is definitely going to be short on damage compared to any other martial in the game, which means your Rogue needs to either invest in class feats where they can get Sneak Attack in more situations, or invest in class feats that capitalizes on your party's current effective tactics.
In an optimal setting, this rogue should be getting 2D6 Weapon Damage + 2D6 Sneak Attack + 1D6 Property Rune + Strength/Dexterity + Weapon Specialization (2). On average, this would be 24.5 damage, or 49 on average for a critical, plus any other specialization effects. Next level, you will get the 4 Attribute Boosts again, which would put your primary attack attribute at 20, granting another +1 to hit and damage. Your secondary/tertiary attributes will also increase. It won't be the extra 1D6 from Sneak Attack at 11th level, or even the possibility of a +2 weapon, but it will ramp up pretty fast.
As for the Thievery skill, the rules state that Thievery is for the disarming/disabling of hazards and opening of locks, picking of pockets, planting of incriminating evidence, etc, among other things. The rules still otherwise require that you use Perception to search for non-apparent hazards, treasure, secret doors, etc. Given that Rogues have the same Perception progression as Rangers and Fighters, that means they can either dump their Wisdom a bit to be on the same level as the other party members, or enhance their Wisdom as a secondary attribute and be more effective than their other party members.
. . . Make an elf or half-elf to gain access to Elven Curve Blade as an ancestry feat.
So your build should look like this:
Lvl 1: Twin Feint. . .
Twin Feint requires weilding two melee weapons. Elven Curve Blade is two-handed. The two cannot be used together.