Are there any printed variants to Hero Points yet? I took a look through the Archive but nothing jumped out at me.
We've done a lot of Coriolis and Mutant Year 0 in our group between fantasy games and I've /really/ liked the economy of how they have their 'hero point' system set up where it is more back and forth between the players and gm. Instead of a limited pool you spend from they give a point to the gm and gm uses those points to re-roll npc's or activate crits etc. so there is a bit of a trade off/risk. If you want to re-roll every action in a game, go for it, but you're loading up the bad guys with re-rolls as well. It was good in MY0 and almost perfect in Coriolis and I've been considering doing something similar as a house rule for PF2 and was wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks!
None that I know of, but your example reminds me of the FFG Star Wars Force die.
It's a super easy portion of the rules to homebrew, since it's not intricately tied into anything.
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Failing the reroll is not an issue, IMO. Its when you fail and reroll into a critical fail that I get annoyed. Hero Points are supposed to allow heroes to do something heroic and getting a worse result when employing said mechanic is anything but heroic. I have instituted that when using a HP reroll, the player can keep the better of the two rolls.
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Failing the reroll is not an issue, IMO. Its when you fail and reroll into a critical fail that I get annoyed. Hero Points are supposed to allow heroes to do something heroic and getting a worse result when employing said mechanic is anything but heroic. I have instituted that when using a HP reroll, the player can keep the better of the two rolls.
I’ve used it as advantage to the roll for the above reason. It’s not very heroic to turn a failure into a critical failure.
Are there any printed variants to Hero Points yet? I took a look through the Archive but nothing jumped out at me.
We've done a lot of Coriolis and Mutant Year 0 in our group between fantasy games and I've /really/ liked the economy of how they have their 'hero point' system set up where it is more back and forth between the players and gm. Instead of a limited pool you spend from they give a point to the gm and gm uses those points to re-roll npc's or activate crits etc. so there is a bit of a trade off/risk. If you want to re-roll every action in a game, go for it, but you're loading up the bad guys with re-rolls as well. It was good in MY0 and almost perfect in Coriolis and I've been considering doing something similar as a house rule for PF2 and was wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks!
I use this as homebrew alternative of Hero Points.
Instead of give 1 hero point per session and +1 per hour. I give to my players 3 Hero Points and allow them to choose if they what to use it to re-roll failed tests (yes after they know the result), but each wasted point gives-me a point to use against that player in next failed tests roll of an enemy, hazard or even skill skill check against that player, when I give back their hero points.
I also change that instead waste all hero points to remove all dying state, each hero point reduces the state in -1.
I like the way that Mutant's and Masterminds runs hero points personally. For the re-roll option you are guaranteed a 10 or better. So basically whatever you roll, if it's below 10 add 10. This adds a bit of certainty that you will improve your roll assuming you rolled sub-10 the first time.
Other options exist in M&M that I have thought about porting over. Edit Scene is one of my favorites. The short version: You spend a hero point and you get to add some kind of advantage to the current game "scene", though never something that automatically solves the problem. For instance, if you were fighting an enemy with a weakness that you can't exploit you could edit in some vector for that weakness, like a convenient firepit. Or if you are trying to escape you could edit in an obstacle that you could take advantage of to slow the enemy down.
For PF2 I would restrict edit scene to providing at most a +2 circumstance bonus on a given check, or giving access to an element type for action expenditure. I use the quote about Seelah dipping her sword in a brazier of coals to get fire damage as a template for that.
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I'm also a fan of Mutants and Masterminds style implementation. I personally use the "Edit Scene" function of hero points from M&M in every game I run that has a hero-point style system, because in many cases when my players use it it just straight up improves the story. If a player uses edit scene and it makes the scene genuinely better, I tend to immediately refund the hero point. If the player edits the scene just to give themselves a small edge in a combat, then sure, and they've now spent that hero point.
I'm also fond of the M&M style reroll where you physically cannot roll lower than a 10, which really gives it a proper heroic feel. I'll likely be implementing this house rule in my next PF2 game.
I also find that a lot of people don't seem to take the +1 per hour suggestion very seriously. In the few games I've played in online I would usually see maybe 1 at most get passed out over the course of the whole session. Something to keep in mind is that if your heroes have more points to spend, it doesn't feel quite as bad if using one of them doesn't help them at all, but if they only have the single point each session and that single point ends up doing nothing (or even making their situation worse) then they're more likely to simply stop using them or resenting the system. I personally hand out points more frequently than even the 1 per hour suggests, because my players enjoy them and most of the time the hero points won't really upset the balance of the game.
That is absolutely brutal and kind of goes against the point of "hero points".
As a player why would i want to risk giving the gm hero points just so they can buff monsters and hazards that already hit like a truck with high to extreme attacks and saves?
Is much more smoothly than you think. In general the hero points becomes a little lucky manipulation system.
The players usually use it in the following situations:
- When they fail a limited move that waste some daily/10 minute resource like spells and focus. So most of they prefer usually prefer to risk to receive a more certain attack from an enemy than loose their spell slot or focus because of a bad lucky in RNG.
- When they critical fail a save. In this case is almost always an advantage to they, because even giving a re-roll to a foe or hazard later they are probably avoiding a certain critical.
- When they receive a critical hit from an enemy. They usually use the hero point to force the enemy to re-roll (adding unfortune trace to enemy attack) mostly avoiding a crit too.
- They also use it a lot tense skill situations.
That is, how they end up focusing more on unique or critical situations, this system usually help's a lot their survivability (because this reduces a lot the bad roll situations) and make they use more often they limited abilities and diminish their frustration and anti-climatic sensation even when they fail their "special" attacks, because they have an almost unlimited use of hero points, but they keep avoiding to use in every roll to avoid increase the chance of receive a drawback from enemy re-rolls (becouse give a re-roll to enemies and harzards all time increases the enemy hit and critial rate).
For me as GM, as I know their stats, strong points and weakness I always re-roll a wasted point against that player in the next fail of a foe/hazard roll not only when I crit fail like the players do or when they are vulnerable in some way or to keep the re-roll for a special attack only like they do and when the hazard rolls, i don't do force re-roll for their saves. But I use the re-roll when the players crit a roll as unfortune trace. After that I give them back their hero point.
So in the end they always have some advantage using hero points because they choose when is better to use, while I'm use automatically in next fail or player critial until the player receive all their 3 hero points back again.
And about going agains the concept of "hero point" to be honest. I don't like the hero part of it, specially "and can gain more later by performing heroic deeds". I dislike the idea of reward the heroic actions of the players. I think this force an specific personality trait to the chars and indirectly penalize those who choose don't have heroic personality.
In the first moment I saw this system I change it to "interpretation points" a started to give point for good interpretation moments. But I also noticed that some players receive more benefit from it depending of their own personalities and offer in how their characters have their own personalities close to it.
So I "copied" this concept the currently "mecanically independent of interpretation" system based in the player strategical choices instead from other TRPG systems.
For PF2 I would restrict edit scene to providing at most a +2 circumstance bonus on a given check, or giving access to an element type for action expenditure. I use the quote about Seelah dipping her sword in a brazier of coals to get fire damage as a template for that.
I tested add +2 to checks as alternative to re-rolls, but I don't like how this could be exploited (ex.: this can greatly increase the crit rate). The re-roll also increase the crit, but is more uncertain, I more like "you have more luck" than you are more proficient.
I also find that a lot of people don't seem to take the +1 per hour suggestion very seriously. In the few games I've played in online I would usually see maybe 1 at most get passed out over the course of the whole session. Something to keep in mind is that if your heroes have more points to spend, it doesn't feel quite as bad if using one of them doesn't help them at all, but if they only have the single point each session and that single point ends up doing nothing (or even making their situation worse) then they're more likely to simply stop using them or resenting the system. I personally hand out points more frequently than even the 1 per hour suggests, because my players enjoy them and most of the time the hero points won't really upset the balance of the game.
I most cases I see this is becouse the GM and the players have forgotten the hero points system. It's normal when the hero points are scarce and the players keep it for a very danger situation but in the end use it and forget it.
I've done a few houserules to hero points myself:
For existing uses:
I lowered stabilizing automatically back to just at straight 1 points, and for the reroll, you keep the best results.
New uses:
For one point, you can:
-lower the damage of a single effect on.you equal your level
For three points, you can:
-Automatically make an attack roll or skill check a nat 20. This can't be used against creatures of equal or higher level than you
-Make one target automatically get a nat 1 against a saving throw from one of your effects. This cannot be used on creatures your level or higher.
Additionally, in the campaign arc I'm running, I'll be introducing a recurring group called the Spectacle of Fate, a mysterious traveling caravan that trades goods in exchange for pieces of their customer's fate. Mechanically, they can trade hero points as a meta currency to buy on level consumables. The items bought from them vanish after the game session. The Spectacle of Fate basically acts like the shady merchants in old rpgs what were improbably set up in dungeons and such before important events
I'm also working out new uses for hero points; my players like them, and and expressed interest in more ways to use the system
Luis has a series of posts on the topic of Hero Points that may be useful for folks looking for variations.
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Additionally, in the campaign arc I'm running, I'll be introducing a recurring group called the Spectacle of Fate, a mysterious traveling caravan that trades goods in exchange for pieces of their customer's fate. Mechanically, they can trade hero points as a meta currency to buy on level consumables. The items bought from them vanish after the game session. The Spectacle of Fate basically acts like the shady merchants in old rpgs what were improbably set up in dungeons and such before important events
I actually freakin love this idea. I may end up implementing something similar in my upcoming game.
I lowered stabilizing automatically back to just at straight 1 points, and for the reroll, you keep the best results.
For stabilizing I only allow to use the hero points at moment of a character enter in dying state, where I allow the player to use 1 hero point per dying point. When used in this way the hero points don't add or increase wounded status and have the fortune trait. Is just like "you luckily don't receive a fatal hit and now is only unconscious".
I actually freakin love this idea. I may end up implementing something similar in my upcoming game.
Idk what it is, but despite the math being very much in favor of using consumables in my game (I level them up so fast that unless the item is going to be used more then 4 times between two sessions, the consumable ia actually better than similar permanent items), my players are afraid of spending money to buy them. After noticing someone on another thread mentioned that they like "renewables" like wands better because they are still strong, but don't vanish once used, I wanted to see if buying consumables with a renewable resource would make them more attractive.
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I personally give players 1 + (1/2 Charisma Mod Rounded Down) Hero Points on daily preparation, I don't like the super subjective and ambiguous incentive system for earning them normally, and I believe that Charisma needed something for non primary stat and non face characters to want it for.
It works super well, and incidentally, yes this allows you to start with more than 3, but there's no way to get more until you rest.
I haven't worked it out entirely, but I have some inspiration from Cypher System and Apocalypse World RPGs that have greater influence on the world, which is a complex idea to work with. Basically, there would be certain things you could do to influence the plot or characters, such as spending a point to retcon a previous relationship with a new NPC. This allows characters to establish more of a history in the world as they play the game.
I personally give players 1 + (1/2 Charisma Mod Rounded Down) Hero Points on daily preparation, I don't like the super subjective and ambiguous incentive system for earning them normally, and I believe that Charisma needed something for non primary stat and non face characters to want it for.
It works super well, and incidentally, yes this allows you to start with more than 3, but there's no way to get more until you rest.
But doesn't that reward the bards, sorcerers and oracles too much?
I have to say that after playing casters that stay in the back, hero points just kind of stack up with no way to use them as things stand. so i like hearing all of these ideas.
When we begin a session, every player gets a Hero Points. After 2h everybody gains another hero point. At the end of the session the Hero Points are set to zero.
Any player can spend a hero point to help any character. For 1 Hero Point you get a rerol after the original roll, or a 11-or-better if they choose to spend the point before the roll. For 2 Hero Point a character survives the scene somehow, but cant act until the end of the scene.
I used to use the Critical Decks with hero points, meaning that they gain a hero point whem they choose to suffer from a card effect and they could pay a hero point to benefit from a card effect. But I end up disliking those effects and I gave up on that.
I have to say that after playing casters that stay in the back, hero points just kind of stack up with no way to use them as things stand. so i like hearing all of these ideas.
Is because of this I allow to use Hero Points as Unfortune trait roll to enemies. Ex.: You cast a fireball but a foe that you need to kill pass in the test. I allow the caster to use a Hero Point to force the selected enemy to roll again against the caster magic.
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The only variant I have on Hero Points is that, when I reward one, I give them to all the PCs. That's just personal preference and helps me avoid accidentally showing favoritism to one player over others. (I've been in games with similar mechanics where the person who is witty or more forceful with taking a leadership position racks up all those points, and I don't want that in my play.)
In terms of rewarding them, I usually grant them when I hand out an XP award. "For dealing with this obstacle, you get 30 XP and a Hero Point," for example.
There is disappointment when a reroll still turns out to be a failure, to the point where I've occasionally allowed the spending of multiple Hero Points on the same action. Then again, I find that my players don't tend to spend Hero Points of stuff that has a high chance of failure; it's mostly as a way to displace a roll that should succeed but that gets an unlucky 1.
I haven't seen a lot of characters needing to use Hero Points to cheat death after 1st level or so. Every group I've played in so far has a dedicated healer who can get fallen allies back on their feet very quickly, and it's hard to die before a healer can save you.
I did once consider allowing a Hero Point to just shift success up one category (or down one category, if that would be more advantageous), but I worried that might be too powerful and/or lead to my players hoarding their Hero Points so they can just lay multiple crits on a boss.
Are there any printed variants to Hero Points yet? I took a look through the Archive but nothing jumped out at me.
The good part of Hero Points system is that the game is independent from it (probably at propose). So each table can make any changes they want and even without an official alternative.
The only exception I think is PFS.
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But doesn't that reward the bards, sorcerers and oracles too much?I personally give players 1 + (1/2 Charisma Mod Rounded Down) Hero Points on daily preparation, I don't like the super subjective and ambiguous incentive system for earning them normally, and I believe that Charisma needed something for non primary stat and non face characters to want it for.
It works super well, and incidentally, yes this allows you to start with more than 3, but there's no way to get more until you rest.
No more than having perception and will be based on Wisdom rewards Druids and Clerics too much, or having Dexterity be Stealth AND Reflex rewards those classes too much. Paizo discusses that Charisma is currently a less powerful stat in one of the ability score variants in the GMG (which is in fact, for using more balanced ability scores) so while it does make Charisma, and Charisma classes a bit more powerful, it doesn't seem to imbalance the game. On top of that, you get less hero points overall if the party has to go a while without a long rest, since even +6 Charisma Mod, only yields a total of 4 hero points to the character that might have to last for multiple sessions.
The classic ability scores aren’t of equal value in the rules. Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom tend to be more important unless a character requires a particular ability score from among the other three for a specific purpose.
My group and I took from M&M the "you can change some minor detail of the situation or the place you are in" thing and slapped that into what Hero Points can do. 100% recommended.
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I think it is incredibly important that no matter what your variant does, it doesn’t allow an action to get worse. A HERO is supposed to do things that ordinary people or ordinary circumstances they wouldn’t. They do against the odds and succeed where others would fail. To me that should never allow a HERO to change a fail into a critical fail. Fortune effects, especially hero points should not replace the previous roll, but allow you to take the better roll. It infuriates me when in org play I fail a save or whatever, burn a very limited and valuable resource like hero points and the new result is a critical fail. That is the most unheroic thing I’ve ever heard of and it’s why my campaigns use a variant. There are certainly a lot of interesting variants in this thread, but I cannot encourage GMs strong enough to never allow heroes to be burned by their own heroism. YMMV
Other options based on M&M that I'm considering:
Heroic Feat: Spend a Hero Point, treat yourself as having a feat, Class or otherwise, that you would otherwise have access to, but haven't taken. Think of it as an on demand Combat Flexibility, but for only 1 turn rather than between daily preps. Must meet the prerequisites for the feat.
Instant Recovery: You spend a Hero Point and immediately get to check to end an affliction. May consider granting a bonus on the check but haven't thought it out that far yet.
Extra Effort: Spend a Hero Point and you become Quickened for the rest of your turn. You can only use the extra action to Stride or Strike.
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I think it’s oiled better a mistake to limit what a Hero Point can be used for or when it can be used. Just because you might think it should be used to ward of death, does not means everyone else does, or more importantly your players. I prefer to give them the freedom to use the HP for whatever they want, even if that means boosting their critical potential vs the boss. If I find it is too strong, I can slow down the rate they receive them, or I can create more situations where they will use them thus reducing how many they have for offensive combat, but maintain their agency to control their fate.
I think saw someone say they ported one of the uses from PF1 and allowed a player to get an extra action for a hero point, but whenever, so even outside your turn. Seemed interesting, might give that clutch heroic feeling, but might also step on the toes of some feats depending on how often it comes into play. Thoughts?
Use hero point to add an action with quickened trait is really interesting to improve as offensive use.
Maybe allow use the Hero Point do diminish MAP grade could be interesting too for players do some desperate attacks.