RAW, yes. RAI, and rules-as-every-GM-should-enforce-them: No. Traits are intended to never stack: "they’re intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character’s traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage." APG pg. 327
Quite frankly, seeing as Wayang Spellhunter is a functional reprint of Magical Lineage, you shouldn't even be allowed to take both, even if you want to apply them to different spells - they just didn't reprint it because all the traits in the book Wayang Spellhunter is in are regional traits, whereas Magical Lineage is a magic trait.
It's not exactly stacking, because they come at it from different angles. It's like one thing gives you +1 to attack and the other gives your enemies a -1 to AC. They have the same effect but are doing 2 different things.
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As written they are untyped, so yes they do stack.
I have heard multiple Paizo developers/designers say they wish it didn’t stack but as one of the former heads of Organized Play said “that ship has sailed.”
Could you give me one or two designers' responses on this, please ? I need some basis to convince my PC.
It's not exactly stacking, because they come at it from different angles.
No. The wording is slightly different, but the effect is exactly identical. You select one spell, and when you apply metamagic, you reduce the spell level by 1.
Could you give me one or two designers' responses on this, please ? I need some basis to convince my PC.
So you're the GM? First, I quoted the text from the trait introduction, and while it nominally talks about trait bonuses, the intend is undeniable. Second, Magical Lineage is already probably the strongest trait in the game, you're fully justified on making a power level based ruling.
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However, I still wanna some "basis", rules, FAQ, Designer Team answers, or at least designer's answers, that's all we accept.
Out of curiosity, what do you do when the players/GM disagree but there is no FAQ or posted designer interpretation available?
That links back to one of my biggest complaints about the PF1 FAQ process; if the designers thought the answer was in the rules, they would close a FAQ with “no response necessary.” It didn’t matter how complicated finding the right answer was, they only posted a FAQ when the rules did not (in their eyes) already provide an answer or the rules needed changing.
It didn’t matter how many people were confused about the right interpretation. This particular question has been asked dozens of times.
just like to add, do note it have a small faq about minimum level reduction. as in after using it you can't end with a spell level lower then the normal level (in case using metamagic that don't increase the spell level for example)
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Mark Seifter on the subject. No, it doesn't change the RAW, but it does provide some advice.
It's not exactly stacking, because they come at it from different angles.No. The wording is slightly different, but the effect is exactly identical. You select one spell, and when you apply metamagic, you reduce the spell level by 1.
I agree with Derklord here.
Let's go with Empowered Fireball.
Fireball = level 3
Empowered = +2
Magical Lineage = -1
Wayang Spellhunter = -1
If they stack it's 3+5-1-1=3, so it ends up up as a level 3 spell.
If they "Overlap" then Magical Lineage brings it from 5 down to 4, and Wayang Spellhunter brings it from 5 down to 4, so it would end up as a level 4 spell.
That's the definition of "Stack" vs "Overlap" in this context.
There is a possible middle-ground here, where the two traits can't affect the same metamagic feats, but they could both affect the same spell. Eg. A Maximized-Empowered Fireball would allow both traits to be used on the spell but you couldn't use them both on a spell with only 1 metamagic feat.
Regardless we have a Rules As Written rule here (they stack) and we have developer input saying they shouldn't stack (though by RAW they do). As the GM it's totally ok for you to disallow them stacking. You have support from the Devs on this one, and it's your game.
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Mark Seifter on the subject. No, it doesn't change the RAW, but it does provide some advice.
Thank you, avr. That's exactly what I need.
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Let me explain.
Actually there is a PFS-like community of us, with about half dozen DM and not more than 20 active PLs. When a rule problem comes out, DMs (and probably some PLs) will discuss to decide the Community Rules. We usually observe the official rules, because intends or conceptual description can't convince everyone. That's why I underline basis.
Now I know the boundary of RAW, the designer's adjustment and the 2 routines. Thank you for get this issue very clear.
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The issue seems to have been resolved, but I'd like to point out that Wayang Spellhunter is incompatible with around 99% of all backstories. I mostly blame the SRD for scorching any kind of roleplaying aspect from the trait as part of their blandification process to remove copyrighted material.
Your ability to alter your spell of choice is greater than expected.
Choose: A spell of 3rd level or below.
Benefit: When you use the chosen spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
Category Region
Requirement(s) Minata
You grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata, and your use of magic while hunting has been a boon to you. Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
Society: Forming small, tightly knit tribes, wayangs live a communal existence, sharing what they have with their friends and families. Their culture seems morbid to most outsiders, one that idealizes a shadowy state of non-being while demonizing the fierce clarity of light.
Relations: Most wayang tribes do their best to avoid the notice of others. To them, the hunting jaguar, the sharp-taloned hawk, and the greedy human are relentless co-conspirators, seeking to exploit, torment, and kill the wayangs. Only through their nimbleness and secretiveness have wayangs survived.
***
Taking the trait means that you grew up on an isolated island part of an ever-fluctuating archipelago located in an eastern-themed continent specific to Golarion. Among a race of (in the literal sense) xenophobic shadowdwellers with a culture that revolves around ritual scarification and passing into non-being. Not to mention that the name of the trait is literally Wayang Spellhunter.
I'd love to see the creative writing exercise of an Elf Magus explaining how they qualify for this trait.
There is another question IMO: Does it contribute to fun if a player specializes that much on a single spell? Sure, they will enjoy when it works out, but:
a) the player will also be tempted to use it all the time, resulting in a more dull game
b) the GM might nerf it because it now works too well, via rules or encounter design
c) the player will pass on other options from the second trait - even just a new class skill might open an interesting new angle on the character
Not that this means anything to the actual game of Pathfinder, but in the video game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage do stack with each other and on the same spell, if desired.
Regardless, RAW yes, they stack. But RAI, no they shouldn't. Expect table variance on this one.
Kingmaker doesn’t have traits unless you are using a 3rd (4th?) party mod.Not that this means anything to the actual game of Pathfinder, but in the video game Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage do stack with each other and on the same spell, if desired.
Regardless, RAW yes, they stack. But RAI, no they shouldn't. Expect table variance on this one.
Yeah, I use Eldritch Arcana Mod & Call of the Wild Mod.
And just to reiterate, this is completely irrelevant to the actual rules of Pathfinder, but worth mentioning.
When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
See, one makes the spell treat its level as 1 lower. And the other uses a slot one level lower. Those aren't the same thing. That's why Seifter says they technically stack. They aren't actually doing the same thing. And what one does doesn't conflict with what the other is doing.
I agree with the RP limitation of the Wayang trait too. That thing was meant to be super rare. It probably should have just been a race trait, but the region lock is pretty restrictive on its own.
Minata. the most populated (is)land in the history of Golarion. and it seem like 99% of it's inhabitants start an adventuring life style far far away from it...
2n place is probably that Razmorian country.
Casters being born in Minata is the same as being found by Fey for Paladins.
Wayangs make good enough magi or wizards that restricting the double-trait metamagic reduction to them wouldn't be enough to make any kind of balance. It really is too much.
& yeah, the owners of ships trading with Minata must have plenty of stories about apprentice wizards to tell.
Wayangs make good enough magi or wizards that restricting the double-trait metamagic reduction to them wouldn't be enough to make any kind of balance. It really is too much.
I'm not so sure. I've never seen anyone play as one otherwise. At worst, it would have made this one specific race a more popular choice.
I kind-of don't mind these specialized traits becoming ubiquitous for certain builds. It has the player-base write a chapter into the setting of Golarion by virtue of their choices.
Iomedae funds orphanages near fey-haunted forrests.
Powerful arcane casters are more likely to produce offspring who's magical abilities manifest - especially with a particular spell.
The Wayangs are xenophobic, but they teach techniques to those who prove themselves (or who can steal their secrets).
People who are bullied are more likely to leave their childhood homes and go adventuring.
Of course it's easy to see these options as cookie-cutter builds with no relation to the world, but I like to think they help create a deeper world.