This means, for a couple of examples, if you cast a spell on them, it auto fails, but if they were a race that has SLAs they would be unable to use them, also, for example, if they hold a +1 longsword, it is treated as a masterwork longsword for them, but likewise, if you attack them with a +1 longsword, it is also treated as a masterwork longsword.
Would such a character be stronger or weaker, on average?
Really strong against magic users, poor/terrible against most other stuff.
For the average 'man on the street' being non-magical would probably be a slight benefit as you are not going to die in a random fireball.
For an adventurer, the complete lack of magical healing would probably be fatal by level 3 or so...
The question becomes, how does this magical null come about, and where are the cut offs? Do supernatural abilities work for or on the character?
The lack of healing is obviously the biggest set back, but if alchemical or healing kit items work, that might be offset.
You also have to figure out all of the corner cases. For instance, how will this character fair against a dragon? Most of the lore attributes at least some of dragons' flight to magical ability, despite the wings. They're too massive for the wings alone to get them airborne. Will the breath weapon touch him; or the fear aura?
This character could be amazingly powerful, depending on how you or your GM rule, but there's a lot of case by case to be accounted for.
Out of curiosity, was this inspired from Wizard's First Rule?
So... magic (like conjuration) can create or summon nonmagical effects. Others like transmutation create permanent, nonmagical effects like stoneshape or disintegrate. So... does this character treat a building or cave created by magical means as not existing? What about a golem or undead creature created by magic? If so, that's gonna create some very strange interactions in a highly magical world.
Conversely, if they basically just have magic immunity, they're still going to suffer from casters who can create stuff that isn't magical in nature...
Sysryke wrote: The question becomes, how does this magical null come about, and where are the cut offs? Do supernatural abilities work for or on the character?
The lack of healing is obviously the biggest set back, but if alchemical or healing kit items work, that might be offset.
You also have to figure out all of the corner cases. For instance, how will this character fair against a dragon? Most of the lore attributes at least some of dragons' flight to magical ability, despite the wings. They're too massive for the wings alone to get them airborne. Will the breath weapon touch him; or the fear aura?
This character could be amazingly powerful, depending on how you or your GM rule, but there's a lot of case by case to be accounted for.
Out of curiosity, was this inspired from Wizard's First Rule?
You've basically hit the nail on the head, but remember that canonically alchemists are magical in PF1e. Alchemical items no, but extracts and mutagens yes.
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A useful ability in many circumstances but one which is easy to work around and will get you killed in many others: no magical healing, no magical travel, no magical protection against energy/poison/drowning/etc.
@Sysryke
Note that D&D physics =/= real world physics, even if there are similarities. Dragons are not so magical that they need it to fly (curious where you found this, because it's the first I've heard of it in D&D) or merely exist as such an enormous creature. Natural law in D&D means dragons can exist and fly just fine without magic. Otherwise AMF and dead magic zones and whatnot would stop them, which isn't the case.
Breath weapons are supernatural so, assuming this ability works are AMF on steroids, dragon breath would be ineffective. In pre 3.x editions the question would be a bit trickier.
You'd be immune to all undead.
God's couldn't touch you.
Spells couldn't touch you.
Magical beasts couldn't harm you.
I think after the level 20 wizard blasted you with their full spell list and you stand there laughing untouched you could pretty much do whatever you want.
Yes, you can die from a stabby but you wouldn't put yourself in that situation..
Does this ability stop magic other people are using from functioning when the character interacts with them. For example does his opponents magic armor and other defensive abilities still continue to function? How about things like belts of STR worn by his opponents? Would he also be protected from indirect magic? Could someone conjure a bolder above his head and drop it on him?
If the character is completely immune to all magic and is a class that does not rely on supernatural abilities they will be stronger than average. Some things may still be a problem to such a character but overall they will be stronger. Something like a Dragon is going to be near impossible to deal with, but taking out the most powerful wizard is going to be absurdly easy. This assumes that the answers to all my above questions are yes.
If the character is only immune to direct magic he will be considerably weaker. Since he is unable to use the normal big six items and for the most part his opponents are, he is at a big disadvantage. His AC and damage are not going to be that high without magic, but his opponent will still have the full AC and other defensive abilities even if they don’t get the bonus from a magical weapon.
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*Thelith wrote: You'd be immune to all undead.
God's couldn't touch you.
Spells couldn't touch you.
Magical beasts couldn't harm you.
I think after the level 20 wizard blasted you with their full spell list and you stand there laughing untouched you could pretty much do whatever you want.
Yes, you can die from a stabby but you wouldn't put yourself in that situation..
Um
Undead: smart ones use non-magical weapons to hit you with.
Gods: drop a big, non-magical mountain on you
And if you assume that a 20th level wizard (you know, the folks who are supposed to be smart) is going to stand there emptying themselves of spells to no avail and then give up...let us just say you/your players have met a lot stupider 20th level wizards than I have. One Dominate to get people to kill you, use Create Pit + Move Earth to bury you alive. Get a powerful non-magical outsider to come via Gate and have them kill you.
Seriously, this ability is hardly a win button.
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Most undead have normal means of attacking. A vampire would still do its slam damage even if the energy drain did not work. If your ability only affects yourself that means the vampire still gets its defenses. Good luck trying to damage it without a magical weapon or any buffs.
True God’s don’t have stat blocks they are plot devices able to do anything the GM wants them to. Their abilities are not magical so they can still kill this character.
Magical Beast like undead usually have normal attacks and are quite capable of harming a character immune to magic. Some of their abilities obviously will not work, but chances are their claws and fangs work just fine.
The wizard is at a severe disadvantage but not totally helpless. If the knows you are coming for him and that you are immune to magic he can make some plans. Since you are immune to magic that means you are also immune to divination which will hamper a wizard. The Wizards best strategy is to simply hire someone to defend them from you. A 20th level wizard willing to trade a powerful magic weapon can easily find a high level barbarian to kill you. If you are not immune to indirect magic than the wizard can simply buff his defender with spells instead of casting them out you. A fully equipped barbarian with Haste, Stoneskin and Heroism cast on him will probably take down any character with no Magic. A couple of limited wishes use to heal the wizard’s champion will almost guarantee his victory over the non-magical character.
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote: A useful ability in many circumstances but one which is easy to work around and will get you killed in many others: no magical healing, no magical travel, no magical protection against energy/poison/drowning/etc.
@Sysryke
Note that D&D physics =/= real world physics, even if there are similarities. Dragons are not so magical that they need it to fly (curious where you found this, because it's the first I've heard of it in D&D) or merely exist as such an enormous creature. Natural law in D&D means dragons can exist and fly just fine without magic. Otherwise AMF and dead magic zones and whatnot would stop them, which isn't the case.
Breath weapons are supernatural so, assuming this ability works are AMF on steroids, dragon breath would be ineffective. In pre 3.x editions the question would be a bit trickier.
For the magical flight bit, straight from the Draconomicon in 3.x. I fully get there's a difference between game and world physics, that was just a bit I remembered from that book. To be fair though, I'm pretty sure that was in a section that was mostly flavor text, so there's no solid game mechanic behind it. That makes it one of those GM call grey areas. Though, yes, by RAW, dragons can fly just fine sans magic.
An undead can't affect him at all, magic using mundane is still magic.
If a +1 sword doesn't function as a +1 sword to hit you, then an undead doesn't function to swing a sword at you.
Nor does haste work against you.
Nor does a magically moved mountain work against you.
Not all undead are magically created though.
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*Thelith you are making some assumptions that may not be true. If this is based on the Sword of Truth series then it is probably based on the Mord-Sith ability. That ability only prevented direct magic from affecting the Mord-Sith. It did not prevent indirect magic, nor did affect anyone but the Mord-Sith. Magic abilities that affected the Mord-Sith’s opponents worked just fine, as did mundane attacks by magical creatures.
Undead are not magical creatures even if they are sometimes created by magic. There are other ways besides spells to create undead. Many undead do have supernatural abilities but that does not make them a magical creature. Looking over the descriptions of the creature types even Magical Beast do not state they are magical. The fact that Antimagic Field states that it has no effect on elementals, undead or outsiders unless they are summoned is further proof that undead are not magical.
If the ability worked like you think than once the character was in existence all magic would cease to function. That would obviously end the game so obviously it does not work like that.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: *Thelith you are making some assumptions that may not be true. If this is based on the Sword of Truth series then it is probably based on the Mord-Sith ability. That ability only prevented direct magic from affecting the Mord-Sith. It did not prevent indirect magic, nor did affect anyone but the Mord-Sith. Magic abilities that affected the Mord-Sith’s opponents worked just fine, as did mundane attacks by magical creatures.
Undead are not magical creatures even if they are sometimes created by magic. There are other ways besides spells to create undead. Many undead do have supernatural abilities but that does not make them a magical creature. Looking over the descriptions of the creature types even Magical Beast do not state they are magical. The fact that Antimagic Field states that it has no effect on elementals, undead or outsiders unless they are summoned is further proof that undead are not magical.
If the ability worked like you think than once the character was in existence all magic would cease to function. That would obviously end the game so obviously it does not work like that.
In agreement with most of your reasoning, but there's probably room for a bit more wiggle room. Also, the ability wouldn't be like the Mord-Sith I would think. More like the main character's little sister introduced later in the series, the "supremely unmagical one". Can't remember the names off the top of my head.
Sister's name is Jensen Rail. Introduced in the TV series way sooner than the books.
The op didn't say what it's based on.
This is my interpretation of "magic can't affect you".
If you want to base it on some random thing that seems like what the op is talking about that's fine.
If the op IS thinking of the same as you are why didn't they just say so?
If a +1 sword fails to give a wielder a +1 dmg/hit vs nomagicguy then why would a magical creature be able to hit him at all?
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*Thelith wrote: The op didn't say what it's based on.
This is my interpretation of "magic can't affect you".
If you want to base it on some random thing that seems like what the op is talking about that's fine.
If the op IS thinking of the same as you are why didn't they just say so?
If a +1 sword fails to give a wielder a +1 dmg/hit vs nomagicguy then why would a magical creature be able to hit him at all?
A dragon is still 6 tons of muscle. I don't think it would just phase through you like a ghost. An Antimagic Field doesn't make dragons just go poof after all.
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*Thelith wrote: The op didn't say what it's based on.
This is my interpretation of "magic can't affect you".
If you want to base it on some random thing that seems like what the op is talking about that's fine.
If the op IS thinking of the same as you are why didn't they just say so?
If a +1 sword fails to give a wielder a +1 dmg/hit vs nomagicguy then why would a magical creature be able to hit him at all?
because Newton's laws of motion don't care what is causing an object to move, only that it moves.
If I poke you with a speark thrown by my had, or poke you with the same spear thrown by my telekenisis spell, the spear, being mundane, will still poke you.
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The original post asks the question if someone had an ability where they treat all sources of magic as though they don’t exist would they be stronger or weaker. The wording of the question indicates that only the person with the ability ignores magic. Magic still continues to work for and on anyone else besides the affected character.
Even magical creatures and object have mundane aspects. The original poster stated outright that magical swords mundane abilities still function vs the character. A magical sword is still able to harm the character; it simply acts as a normal masterwork sword. Therefore a magical creature would still be able to affect the character but without the creatures magical abilities.
How do you define what is a magical creature? As I pointed out earlier undead are not magical creatures nor are elementals or even outsiders. The only creatures that can really be considered magical are summoned creatures. So a character with this ability would be unable to be directly harmed by a summoned creature.
You could have an ability that makes the character impervious to all magic direct or indirect, but that does not seem to be what the OP is talking about. There was a race of being in the old Wizards of the Coast Primal Order supplement that did have such and ability. But they were not able to interact with any kind of magic at all. A magic sword would pass right through them as if it did not exist, but again that is not what the OP is talking about.
How strong they'd be depends on how many like them there are. An army or a nation would have tactics worked out to beat them, e.g. transmute rock to mud perhaps followed by the reverse, or decent archers flying far above somehow, or buffs which purely affect their enemies like haste. They'd be weaker than most in this case.
If OTOH they're the only one in the world immune to magic then their enemies mostly won't expect this and they will have a serious advantage.
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It really depends on what that means and entails.
Does it extend to making gold vanish because someone at some point used magic to earn that gold, thus destroying the payment of mercenaries that a wizard sent to kill said character?
Would a steel sword that was smelted and forged using heat from a magical fire suddenly revert back into iron ore, flux, and carbon? What about if the only magic involved was the fact that the smith who made the sword had a spell on them at the time? Would it matter if the spell altered how good they were at smithing, either directly or indirectly or if the spell was completely unrelated to the creation process?
Would a Fabricated bench explode back into a living oak tree from the character touching it? Being within a certain radius?
Are any of these changes retroactive or otherwise involve any wibbily-wobbly timey-wimey effects? Can it result in "That sword was never forged... but it wasn't never forged yesterday" style scenarios?
Would a Wall of Iron melt into nothingness from the character's proximity?
If you magically created an orb of lightning and he touched it and it vanished from existence, would it reappear after he moved away from where it had been? What if it was a very small AoE of wind whose space he entirely occupied and then left?
Is the ability causing all of this "smart" and capable of nuanced interpretation of context or "dumb" in that it's a set rule that always functions a single, certain way? Or somewhere between where it is dumb, but has a whole load of Else-If statements in the mix?
Without more information, there are, as seen, many ways to interpret what the OP meant. This is how I see it myself. Having played in a high level game and one of the other players thought that a complete set of gear that kept them encircled in a continual AMF would make them invulnerable. They found out the opposite. So here are the points I get from OP's limited examples.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: This means, for a couple of examples, if you cast a spell on them, it auto fails,... I would assume the OP meant by casting a spell on them would mean a targeted spell. Magic Missile, Flame Arrow, etc. But not area of effects like Fire Ball or Meteor Swarm. This make me think that the magic fizzles out upon touching him, or his clothing/armor. The AOE would not effect them but all around them the effect would still function.
Rekswe_Trebla wrote: ... for example, if they hold a +1 longsword, it is treated as a masterwork longsword for them, but likewise, if you attack them with a +1 longsword, it is also treated as a masterwork longsword. ... The OP's later example reinforces my first point by the statement that the +1 sword is in contact with him. First by holding, and it becomes non magical, and later when it strikes him, again becoming non magical.
This being said. Any effect that a Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic Field would suppress/remove would not function as soon as it came in contact with him. If the effect is on an item, that itself isn't made of magic, just enhanced by magic, said item would still make contact, sans any magical effects.
This is how I see it anyways.
EDIT: On the question on more powerful or less. That would depend on the situation the person found themselves in honestly. Highly offensive magic area, he would be better equipped. No magic area of area where most the enemies abilities are Extraordinary, looking at the Fighters, not so powerful, but, if he is a fighter himself, is on equal footing.
PodoDraken wrote:
I would assume the OP meant by casting a spell on them would mean a targeted spell. Magic Missile, Flame Arrow, etc. But not area of effects like Fire Ball or Meteor Swarm. This make me think that the magic fizzles out upon touching him, or his clothing/armor. The AOE would not effect them but all around them the effect would still function.
Rekswe_Trebla wrote: ... for example, if they hold a +1 longsword, it is treated as a masterwork longsword for them, but likewise, if you attack them with a +1 longsword, it is also treated as a masterwork longsword. ... The OP's later example reinforces my first point by the statement that the +1 sword is in contact with him. First by holding, and it becomes non magical, and later when it strikes him, again becoming non there’s two different mechanics already in game to support a ‘zero magic character’, spell resistance/immunity and anti-magic fields.
I believe either would completely prevent effects from fireball/meteor swarm. The OP description appears to be fully consistent with how anti-magic fields work (to include how he or she interacts with magic weapons).
In that case, the character would usually be weak, because the game is balanced on the assumption that PCs have a big advantage in magical equipment and buffs relative to other things. Vs. magic users, however, the PC would basically be an NPC martial vs. an unarmed commoner-like character.
The ‘character can’t even be indirectly affected by magic’ concept doesn’t make sense, as at this point everything in the world is at least indirectly brought into it’s current location and form via magic. At best, that kind of character is basically witnessing reality from an Ethereal state, with no ability to interact with anything.
Sorry for not responding sooner. PodoDraken basically got it right.
This was just an idea I had randomly, so it wasn’t based on the Sword of Truth series, but I now have a series to look into, as apparently my idea has already been done in a work of fiction.
Depends on his other capabilities to be honest. A level 1 Commoner with that ability would still get eaten by an average wolf or flattened by some random ogre.
A kaiju with that ability on the other hand would be a near-unstoppable calamity and a horror to fight, if it gets some ranged attack.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: You could have an ability that makes the character impervious to all magic direct or indirect, but that does not seem to be what the OP is talking about. There was a race of being in the old Wizards of the Coast Primal Order supplement that did have such and ability. But they were not able to interact with any kind of magic at all. A magic sword would pass right through them as if it did not exist, but again that is not what the OP is talking about. The Wizard is also somewhat of a tough SOB himself. A level 20 wizard has a Base attack bonus of 10 after all.
Shure he probably got some terrible physical stats, but he is still able to beat the crap out of most people with his bare hands.
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If I understand correctly, then Conjuration (Creation) spells with an Instantaneous duration would still be able to kill him. At least with SR:No as part of the spell?
Iron Stake for instance creates a cold iron spike and then that cold iron spike just exists as a permanent non-magical object that just so happens to have been created by magic. Stone Discus does much the same, but with stone discs. Clashing Rocks would be massive overkill, but you could squish him between two giant masses of earth-and-stone.
Silver Darts does offer spell resistance, on the other hand, despite the silver darts also being permanent non-magical objects that were just created by magic.
Acid Splash is another weird case, since it is an instantaneous duration Conjuration (Creation) spell and doesn't allow for spell resistance, but it contains a clause that it disappears after 1 round. Acidic Spray on the other hand, that might work the way that Acid Splash probably should with less question. Irradiate would be another weird case where it creates non-magical radiation, though radiation isn't an object.
Going through the spells, it looks like Pellet Blast is another one like Acid Splash, where it seems like it should work, but the pellets also disappear. Mudball would still blind them. Nauseating Dart would do a little damage and nauseate them. Rain of Arrows is a bit wonky, in that it would work by the stats of the spell but the description calls out the arrows as magical arrows, but they also are permanent objects and could be fired at the character after being repaired and would definitely work then as they'd just be plain old arrows no different than ones created by Fabricate. Storm of Blades joins Acid Splash and Pellet Blast.
Tidal Surge has a magical effect to it that acts as dispel magic on magical fires, but otherwise is just a mass of mundane water rushing forward. Wall of Iron (the pushing it on them function) fills out on damaging options that don't allow SR.
Arrow Eruption is similar to Rain of Arrows but allows SR, and Conjure Deadfall joins Pellet Blast and company but on the allowing SR side. Gloomblind Bolts, Corrosive Touch, Mighty Fist of the Earth, and Touch of Slime round out the party, all allowing SR.
And then Waters of Lamashtu are just weird, as with most things Lamashtu. They're permanently created and not sustained by magic, they don't allow spell resistance, and they clearly ultimately have a magical effect, including being able to permanently alter creatures' bodies.
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