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Starting to prep for my next campaign, I'm looking at changing (limiting) the max score for starting characters.
20 point buy, ability scores must be 10 to 16 before racial adjustment.
How would this look for new characters? Would players be more likely to create MAD characters since they can't get a 20 stat?
Thanks.
I pretty much NEVER start with an ability score higher than 17 (even after racial modifiers), and rarely (if ever) have a stat below 9, outside of theory-crafting characters that will never see actual play.
It just comes down to the kind of players and the kind of game you are running. I have no need to press a character to hyperfocus into getting that last +1 modifier on a base stat because I know other places and ways to make up for the difference. For example, you let me play with a NPC elite array, and I'll rock the house with it. You give me a general NPC array, and I'll still rock the house with it. You give me all 10's, and I'll still surprise you.
But, seriously. If you have reasonable players and playing a reasonable game, capping the scores at 16 prior to racial mods isn't going to be a problem. Some people don't find that fun, however. Bard with 14 Charisma? Pfft, challenge accepted.
20 point buy, ability scores must be 10 to 16 before racial adjustment.
How would this look for new characters? Would players be more likely to create MAD characters since they can't get a 20 stat?
If helping MAD classes/builds is the goal, you really should increase the spending points, too. Your changes lessen the allure of SAD classes somewhat, but MAD classes, which usually don't go above a 16 anyway, would still lose something because of the lower limit. On 20 PB, for playing something like a Monk, your changes are actually a hindrance.
or a halfling cant start with higher than a 14 str. not worth it.
Who the hell plays a strength-based halfling Fighter with an 18 strength point buy? That sounds like something people might do for their first character because they're dead set on imitating this character from that book/movie/show, and afterwards will look upon with a feeling of shame.
Dwarf bard, cant have above a 14 cha? no thanks.
First, 14 Cha is fine for a Bard (and I'd presume the norm, actually), and second, that's what Dwarven Scholar and Chronicler of Worlds are for.
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You’ll probably get more MAD characters, but you may also get a few two-stat characters as well. Like a 16 Str 16 Cha (before racial modifiers) battle oracle. Or a 16 Dex 16 Con kineticist.
You’ll probably have less people playing races that have a penalty to their desired class’s key ability score (so long, dwarf sorcerer) since they are limited to 14 max. You might see an uptick in people only playing races that can get a bonus to that score.
The biggest change you will likely see is a reduction in save-or-lose casters. Less wizards and sorcerers. It’s mostly psychological, but a fair number of people are going to think “if my wizard can’t get 20 Int I might as well take the chance to play something else.” So if that’s something you are after this would likely work out well for you.
I've run 9 campaigns (5 APs, 4 modules) at 20 point buy and have only once had someone start with 19 in a stat. Otherwise it's been 18 or less.
I don't think limiting the upper limit is worth it and preventing someone from going down to 8 makes little difference.
But that's from my experience and your group might be very different than the people I've ran games for.
Starting to prep for my next campaign, I'm looking at changing (limiting) the max score for starting characters.
20 point buy, ability scores must be 10 to 16 before racial adjustment.
How would this look for new characters? Would players be more likely to create MAD characters since they can't get a 20 stat?
Thanks.
If this is what you want to do I'd change it to:
20 point buy, ability scores must be 8 to 18 after racial adjustment.
This lets people get to the same results with racial modifiers, but they can also get to them with more varied races. If you're worried about stat-dumping just say they don't get bonus points to spend for dumping stats.
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I'm actually pretty surprised by some of the opinions in this thread. I know a lot of the names here (including me) love to talk about optimization, but there's some pretty severe over-valuing of stats going on.
The difference between a 14 strength halfling and an 18 strength human is +1 to attack and +2 or 3 to damage.
The difference between a 14 strength halfling and an 18 strength human is +1 to attack and +2 or 3 to damage.
It doesn't seem like a lot, but that is the equivalent of 2 feats (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization specifically). Also Halfling Fighters are already at -1 to -3 damage from their small-sized weapons, so it puts them further behind.
On the caster side of things (eg. Dwarf Sorcerer) a -1 to your casting stat may just be a -1 to save DCs, or it may be worth one extra 9th level spell per day (plus a 5th level spell and a 1st level spell).
Personally I don't think Martial characters need an 18 in their main stat to be effective, I usually start with a 16 and I never feel underpowered, but I think I'd have trouble with a 14 STR Halfling.
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Speaking personally with your original limits I wouldn't touch a MAD class. Getting one ability to 14 (racial bonus is 5 or 16 (no racial bonus) is 10. Lets assume you choose a race that grants you two stats with +2 (already limiting your choices because you can't pick races based on concept/fun for this) that's still half of your 20 gone, if one stat isn't a racial bonus one that's 15 points gone and if your going for a racial choice from role playing rather than optimization its all your points.
Even for classes like the fighter you could have only 5 points left for your 16 str, 16 dex fighter. Sure you can potentially get a 18, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 array going but even so I can't see myself wanting to play a class that is MAD. I'd stick with a SAD class like a caster, fighter or the like.
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Short Story time:
I wanted to play a halfling frontliner vigilante, because I had great roleplay worked out. Without going into all the details of my build process, I realized the lower strength was going to mean I wasn't as optimized as a half-orc. So I explored options. I settled on a zealot vigilante, using Lethal Grace to boost damage, as well as all those inquisitor spells. Which meant I needed Strength (for damage), Dexterity (attack, AC, init), Con (HP), and Wis (casting). I personally like skill points, and the roleplay involved a very social character, so I actually put a couple of points into Int and Cha as well (12 and 14, respectively, after halfling modifiers).
Now you may be thinking "A zealot vigilante is a good build regardless." But the point is that having that low strength led me to a MAD build. Which is the entire thing the original poster is hoping to accomplish.
Starting to prep for my next campaign, I'm looking at changing (limiting) the max score for starting characters.
20 point buy, ability scores must be 10 to 16 before racial adjustment.
How would this look for new characters? Would players be more likely to create MAD characters since they can't get a 20 stat?
Thanks.
If this is what you want to do I'd change it to:
20 point buy, ability scores must be 8 to 18 after racial adjustment.This lets people get to the same results with racial modifiers, but they can also get to them with more varied races. If you're worried about stat-dumping just say they don't get bonus points to spend for dumping stats.
I second Mr. Charisma.
I used to basically use this rule, where it was designed to prevent starting with a 20 and then also said selling a stat below 10 provides no points (only so that someone could take like a +int race to make a melee character that doesn't want skills and repurpose those points to something better, for example).
Ultimately though, I just swapped to using a (generous) stat array.
Short Story time:
I wanted to play a halfling frontliner vigilante... I settled on a zealot vigilante, using Lethal Grace to boost damage, as well as all those inquisitor spells.
Wow, I did almost exactly the same thing when I played Hell's Rebels. And I did it with 15 point buy. I never, NEVER felt unable to contribute and specifically built around tactics that did not require me to deal damage. Things like shield bashing the enemy to debuff their attack rolls, shake them with intimidation, use dirty tricks and setting up the enemy so that the HULK half-orc could lay them flat with his attack.
My highest ability score? Dexterity: 18, at level four with the level increase and a belt. Yes, that meant I started with a 15 in Dexterity, after racial mods.
How much optimization do the characters need?
Not a whole helluva lot, realistically. Though that depends heavily on what kind of game you are playing.
I, personally, encourage players at my table to make well-rounded characters. I give generous point buys, with my only rule being no score below an 8... even after racial modifiers.
I have been thinking about removing racial modifiers, altogether, honestly...
IMO an 8 or 9 as ability score is fine. 10 is already average, and a hero who is at least average in everything is more shallow than a hero with a distinct weakness (or multiple). A 9 might look low since it's a single-digit number, but mechanically it's exactly the same -1 on the modifier you get when you reduce a 12 to an 11.
A 7 as a score is fine also, IMO it's a reasonable lower limit. It's just that the reward for it is too high - you shouldn't get 2 points for the step from 8 to 7. Make it 1 point as a houserule, and you suddenly force your players into an interesting decision: Is 1 point really worth another -1 on checks?
Some character concepts reward certain high ability scores at level 1. Str 18 and Int 20 are the most obvious ones, and already show an issue with upper limits: They don't affect everyone equally. Yes, full casters can be annoying for GMs, but this rather is an issue later in the game. So either ban them completely or fix them exactly where fixes are necessary. A general nerf will result in a sour player torturing themselves through the first levels, very eager to show the GM how bada** their caster can become. Better let them have fun from the beginning, it will keep them less antagonistic.
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Wouldn't it be interesting though if the full BAB martial had a 20 Int, or the Cha based full caster had a 20 Str? Like, what if players didn't optimize around the primary stat required for their character, if they're playing SAD characters anyway.
...How would that change the way you roleplayed that PC, or how they approached combat
You should see the character I am running through Tyrant's Grasp right now. As a Barbarian, you'd think he'd optimize for this physical stats and try not to dump his mental. Well, sort of. When he was younger, he had some well developed physical stats (we're talking 16,16,16) but sadly, age has worn them down to nothing (10,10,10).
So, I started Tyrant's Grasp with a venerable Aasimar Barbarian with a stat spread of Str: 10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Int: 14, Wisdom: 16, and Charisma: 16. Who just happened to focus all of his traits and wealth (gained from those traits, pfft, rich parents? Naaah, I'm freaking rich from past adventures!) so that his delusion of being a wizard was reflected in his ability to Use Magic Device, Identify spells via spellcraft, and have a somewhat passable few rounds of combat while raging.
His goal? To reach a high enough level that he can take the Arcane discovery: Immortality to reclaim his youthful vigor and live forever.
Me: I made a mage with d12 HD. He has twelve HP at level 1.
DM: And can rage?
Me: Yes, his class is barbarian but thinks he is a wizard
[variant multiclassed into wizard for the lulz]
DM: He has an AC of 10 and only a +3 to hit for 1d6 damage.
Me: He has a wand or two.
DM: You sure you want to do that?
Me: Bring it on.
---After managing to actually survive to level 2---
Me: I picked up Spring Rage as a Rage Power. It lets me ignore age penalties when I rage.
DM: OK, why does that matter.
Me: ... I have 20 Strength, 16 Dexterity and 20 Constitution when I rage.
DM: ... Well played.
.... Yeah. I don't give two [expletives] about common consensus of how things should be built to perform a role. I have FUN.
I would make the limit 9 to 17. It lets someone dump a stat slightly to claw back a needed extra point, but it's effectively the same as allowing an 8 for half the benefit so it won't be abused. Likewise it lets someone get to 18+racial at 4th level if they really really want to, but it's expensive.
Limits aside, 20 point buy should be fine. Some very MAD classes may be a bit restricted, but other than that it's no problem. I often read on these boards of parties stomping through APL+5 encounters and I'm sure that the tendency to 25+ point buy, max hp per level and other gifts has something to do with it.
While I agree that sounds like a fun character to play, it's also the equivalent of what, a 33 point buy at adulthood? And then you found a way to get the bonuses of venerable without suffering the penalties in combat. Not sure that really belongs in the category of not optimizing.
Yeah, that's hella optimizing.
And falls under a category of something I banned as a GM years ago, which was age penalties (and bonuses).
I've never seen anyone play with them where it actually affected the character in a significant way.
Using the spring rage power is just another way to ignore them.
Wouldn't it be interesting though if the full BAB martial had a 20 Int, or the Cha based full caster had a 20 Str?
Hrm, I went only half the way (Int 15 for a rogue) and it already makes me questioning this decision, from time to time. Yes, it makes the character more unique and has a few mechanical benefits, but still you have to face whatever the GM throws at you, and there is always the competition with the other players. The higher the pressure for success, the fewer options seem viable...
While I agree that sounds like a fun character to play, it's also the equivalent of what, a 33 point buy at adulthood? And then you found a way to get the bonuses of venerable without suffering the penalties in combat. Not sure that really belongs in the category of not optimizing.
It was built with 20 point buy, though made use of alternate Aasimar abilities to get a few more attribute points. You could easily build it, or close to it, with 25 point buy (26 to be exact, but you can drop a single stat 1 point, it really wont make a difference). Really though... His highest ability score(s) are 16 and he uses Rage.
And don't make the mistake of thinking he gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. For a handful of minutes each day, he gets to experience the vitality of his youth but, outside of those moment? He is an old man, with no real physical ability scores to talk about. He just reached level 10 and still doesn't own a belt of physical ANYTHING. He pretty much walks around in clothing, pretending to be a wizard. He carries around a 'spell book' that consists of scrolls he thinks might be handy.
If you think that his first instinct in combat is to fly into a Rage, you are sorely mistaken. He has single handidly talked the group out of starting fights and managed to convince enemies to back off. It might make the most sense to immediately maximize his potential and fly off the wall at the enemies at first contact, but he doesn't. He is an old man. He feels the breath of death along his spine at every moment. He is merely waiting for the time where he doesn't wake up in the mortal world (that Boneyard incident was like a dejavu experience of his dreams).
Yeah, that's hella optimizing.
Never said it wasn't. It is just a different kind of focus on optimization. The character has some severe handicaps because of his stats. And through using one of his class features, he is able to perform just about as well as a typical barbarian that hasn't spent any class features for a few moments a day. All the other times? Meh, he's old and tired and doesnt want to be bothered.
And falls under a category of something I banned as a GM years ago, which was age penalties (and bonuses).
Your table, your rules. I wouldn't have made the character for your table.
I've never seen anyone play with them where it actually affected the character in a significant way.
Using the spring rage power is just another way to ignore them.
You should watch the character in action. The age penalties impact the character 90% of the time he is actively engaged with the mechanics. The ONLY time that the character gets to ignore those penalties is in the midst of heated combat, where his life or that of his dearest companions are in present danger (such as his granddaughter's soul being in the maw of some hell beast and he HAS TO SAVE HER) when he has to draw on the primal rage that has dimmed to embers within his worn out body, and fan it into a bonfire.
Funny thing. We've had combats in the last few sessions, and not a single time has he need to enter into a rage. Even without his rage, he is becoming a fairly adept combatant. Full BAB characters are no joke. I've begun to dabble in Item Mastery feats to make him even better at mimicking the abilities of a spellcaster. The character is a huge, glorious pile of confusion and sass. And the only really interesting thing about him mechanically is the age penalties and the Spring Rage power.
If the actual intent is to encouragre less Single Attribute Dependant (SAD) characters and more Multiple Attribute Delendant (MAD) characters - allow me to (once again) extole the virtues of the character generation system we're using in Iron Gods:
In order to make this easier:
If I say the word Score I'm referring to ability scores (STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA).
If I say the word Point I'm referring to the point-buy used to generate your ability scores.
Characters start with a 15 point buy for their ability scores .
Every time you level up you get an extra point toward your point buy. This replaces the +1 to an ability score that you would usually receive at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20.
You can save points to be spent later if you don't have enough to buy the next upgrate in an ability score that you want, or if you just don't know where to put them.
Ability scores can only go up to 18 (before racial modifiers) at character creation, but they can be increased higher than 18 as you level up. The point cost for ability scores above 18 follow the same pattern used normally for the point buy system:
Ability Score = Point buy cost
07 = -4 points
08 = -2 points
09 = -1 point
10 = 0 points
11 = 1 point
12 = 2 points
13 = 3 points
14 = 5 points
15 = 7 points
16 = 10 points
17 = 13 points
18 = 17 points
19 = 21 points
20 = 26 points
21 = 31 points
22 = 37 points
23 = 43 points
24 = 50 points
That's the highest you can go before running out of points (and that requires you to dump most of your ability scores to 07, and be at least level 16).
By level 20 each character has the ability scores of a 34 point buy.
So as an example my Half-Orc Bloodrager looks like this as he levels up:
Level 1: S-14(+2), D-10, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 15 point buy.
Level 2: S-14(+2), D-10, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 15 point buy (1 point saved).
Level 3: S-14(+2), DEX-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 17 point buy.
Level 4: S-14(+2), D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 17 point buy (1 point saved).
Level 5: S-14(+2), D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 17 point buy (2 points saved).
Level 6: S-14(+2), D-12, CON-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 20 point buy.
Level 7: S-14(+2), D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 20 point buy.l (1 point saved).
Level 8: STR-15(+2), D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 22 point buy.
Level 9: S-15(+2), D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 22 point buy (1 point saved).
Level 10: S-15(+2), D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 22 point buy (2 points saved).
Level 11: STR-16(+2), D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 25 point buy.
Level 12: S-16(+2), DEX-13, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13 = 26 point buy.
(And we're up to level 12 at the moment)
I plan on getting DEX Score to 14 then CHA Score to 14 . I'll have enough left to get INT and WIS Scores to 12, or to put one of them to 13 (for prerequisites if needed).
So my final Ability Scores will be something like: S-16(+2), D-14, C-16, I-12, W-12, C-14
So you can see that this ends up being a fairly generous spread of ability scores for anyone playing a MAD character.
For a SAD character your primary ability score gets more and more expensive as you level, so it encourages you to diversify. You could dump all your ability scores to 07 and end up with a 24 in your main ability score by level 16 (which would technically be better than the usual method) but it comes at a significant cost. Even getting your primary abilitys score to 22 (by level 20) leaves you with a point deficit for the rest of your ability scores.
There are a few downsides to this system:
- Fistly it's more bookkeeping than usual (you have to remember yourself when you can level up your ability scores). This isn't too hard - you should always have a (14+level) point buy - but it's not as easy as the usual method.
- Secondly it makes racial ability scores (or age penalties/bonuses) more valuable. If I wanted to make a Dwarf Wizard and I wanted to end the game with 28 INT (enough for a bonus 9th level spell) I'd have real trouble, even with a +6 Headband. This is basically the purpose of the system (it makes those high ability scores more costly) but it's something to consider.
- Lastly I'd give 1 more point to the point buy. 15+level would be easier to calculate and easier to remember than 14+level . It likely wouldn't change much gameplay-wise, but it'd make the bookkeeping slighty easier.
10-16 stats before racial adjustments means you're more likely to see typical uses of races, not playing against type. This is the case for a lot of the adjustments to the starting ability score system I've seen. It should make MAD classes slightly more attractive, yes.
I suspect it actually needs a game where the players don't optimise instinctively.
I'll be the first in the thread to congratulate you on not doing rolled stats.Starting to prep for my next campaign, I'm looking at changing (limiting) the max score for starting characters.
20 point buy....
ability scores must be 10 to 16 before racial adjustment. How would this look for new characters?They won't be minmaxed, and that's about it. It will weed out problem players who absolutely demand hyperoptimized characters out of the chute.
Would players be more likely to create MAD characters since they can't get a 20 stat?
They'll be more likely to play races with +2/+2/-2 array adjustments, and less likely to play one-trick-pony blasters.
I once ran a multiclass human in PFS whose starting stats were 14,14,13,13,12,12 (20pt) and whose first three classes were BAB0. And it was a martial build that didn't rage. --There are probably half a dozen ways to do almost anything baller in this game. If you can learn a gimmick to reliably dish out -2s to the enemy, that's like having a relative +4 in your attack stat (and you're sharing it with the party half the time), meaning you could save a lot in point-buy with detuned stats, and enjoy a wider bonuses footprint in the bargain.
In a home game as opposed to a module system, the GM also tends to adjust to the level of his PCs to keep the game taut, meaning that the party being overall stronger washes out, as it means their opponents are relatively stronger too.
I find that the key to enjoying myself in home games is to not be grossly disproportionate to the other PCs. I neither want to gimp nor cakewalk.
Going to take a different approach, and show some of what I think might be "typical" arrays using the OP's proposed rules (20 pb, must buy in the 10-16 range only.)
- 16 / 16 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10
Players who want to keep things simple might just do this.
- 16 / 14 / 14 / 10 / 10 / 10
Getting 14s into Dex and Con for saves / hp, plus a primary stat. There are other ways to use this, of course.
- 16 / 14 / 13 / 12 / 10 / 10
This resembles the classic 15-point array (15/14/13/12/10/8) with five extra points.
Some people might start with a 15 in the highest stat; the most likely case, I'd think, is 15 / 14 / 13 / 13 / 12 / 10, again similar to the 15-point array.
off topic:The spring rage guy has plenty of weaknesses for a GM to work with when necessary, I wouldn't have a problem with it; it's not like a barbarian with 16 Cha and half the normal feats is overpowered. And it might be more interesting than a barbarian who has 16s in his physical stats out of rage and nothing to speak of in mental stats. I suspect it actually needs a game where the players don't optimise instinctively.
Outside of Rage:
His physical defenses are low (he's getting WIS to AC now, so not 'trash')
His Fort and Reflex saves are ... not trash but definitely low
His physical skills (climb, swim, acrobatics, etc) are significantly lower
His attack bonuses are hardly higher than his level (which is level 10)
Has very little endurance for long stretches of time/activity
Has to lean on consumable items to stay relevant
So, aside from having a respectable bucket of HP compared to a wizard... He is effectively a wizard without most of the fun stuff.
Inside of Rage:
Can't make use of ANY of his items that take concentration (something the character was BUILT around)
Can't make use of any of his spell-like abilities (see above)
Saving throws are only moderately better, though only really good due to Superstitious rage power
Has to resist spells being cast on him due to Superstitious rage power
Intelligence suffers during rage, making him less likely to use intelligent tactics
Tries to solve most of his problems with immediate violence and strength
Tends to be less reasonable and unlikely to listen to the orders of his (far) younger teammates
So, he's basically a run of the mill Barbarian with half the feats, the WRONG kind of feats, half the rage powers, and lower physical stats.
Yeah, as far as age bonus/penalties shenanigans go... He isn't really using them to his benefit. He is effectively a character with 15 point buy outside of rage (and well built out of average materials) and a 26 point buy character while in a rage (with poor feat choices for combat). Seriously, the only actual combat feat he chose was Pummeling Style. He got Vital Strike as a bonus feat from his prestige class. Extra Rage Power (Fueled by Vengeance) and (Superstitious) make up his other choices.