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So as a DM, have you ever given the players any kind of boon/bonus? If so what did you give them?
Examples
Higher starting money
Better stats
Free magic item(s)
Bonus feat(s)
Altered class feature
Bonus class feature
Altered racial ability(s)
Bonus racial ability(s)
Extra skill points
Max HP per level
More class skills
Spell like abilities
Free weapon prof.(s)
Free armor prof.(s)
Bonus traits
We're playing Wrath of the Righteous now, and the DM permitted max starting money, bonus skill point if you produced a detailed character history, MAX HP for Levels 1 and 2, and a bonus trait from the WotR players guide. He is also permitting +1 to any ability score each level, but the trade-off is that there are no belts, headbands, etc. that increase ability scores.
When I am the DM I usually permit max HP for Levels 1 and 2.
We've used the Elephant in the Room system (which basically gives free feats and skill points).
For Iron Gods we're using a stat-system which is: 15 point buy at level 1, +1 to the point buy every level (not +1 to the stat every level). This isn't necessarily a boon, but I really like it.
We've also had boons during the campaign: +1 to a stat, or "Boon of Sarenrae ".
I'm sure there have been others, but that's all I can think of for now.
I've given a bonus trait before, one suited to the character more than their needs, based on actions while roleplaying. I've wanted to do your point-buy variant, MrCharisma, how well does it work?
I've given out a feat here and there too.
The only bonus I give players in my game is a bonus XP point or 10 if they make me laugh so hard I have to stop the game.
"Elephant in the Room System"?
Yes, and it doesn't matter
25 point buy
200 starting gold
No proficiency rules
No race restrictions
Free feat in place of traits
Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules
Additional free feats at +6/+11/+16 bab (The feats are just the Vital Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting trees, excluding the two-weapon fighting feat itself)
No need to roll for Aid Another
Party still only goes at a rate of one dungeon room per session
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"Elephant in the Room System"?
You can look it up on google but essentially it's freeing up a lot of feats that are considered necessary or expanding and consolidating feats.
Off the top of my head this includes:
Power Attack/Deadly Aim/Combat Expertise are just combat options for anyone with at least +1 BAB
Improved Maneuver feats are consolidated into just two feats
Feats like Weapon Focus apply to weapon groups instead of just singular weapons
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Elephant in the Room feat tax rules.
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I've had a GM give out a level in an NPC class, which I'd never seen done before, and I thought it was appropriate for the character. My PC was a wizard who had enrolled in the city's magic university, so after a certain point, he granted the character the first level in the Expert NPC class. This really only amounted to a +2 to the Wisdom save, a handful of extra skill points, and one level higher in my overall character level. Not much, but I appreciated the bump and the recognition of what my PC was doing in his downtime.
I give a bonus feat every level (there are too many feats to play with, and too few slots to take them in, I want to really open up build possibilities), max hit points (anything that increases adventuring time is aces for me!) and will typically increase every 2+ skill per level class to at least 4+ (cause I want them to do stuff)
that's pretty standard, then depending on the game and characters, they may get custom templates, special abilities, artifacts and otherwise high priced wondrous items (far above wealth by level) that they can then use to solve various problems I'll figure into encounters and locations.
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I'd like to play with stuff like this but my players resent anything that isn't by the book or close to it
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I've wanted to do your point-buy variant, MrCharisma, how well does it work?
I love it, it's my new favourite system.
We're using it for Iron Gods. It essentially does away with the disparity between SAD classes and MAD classes, since increasing a single stat into the stratasphere continues to be more expensive for the entire game, rather than just at character creation.
It also kept my stat choices relevant at more levels than usual. With the usual system I'd be min-maxing strength for my Bloodrager, with maybe a point into CON to bring it up to an even number ... which isn't interesting in the slightest. With this system I brought my DEX up to 12 early (because I was fighting defensively and tanking for the early levels). I intended to up my STR next at level 8, but since my main role was still tanking while the Gunslinger dished out the damage I opted to delay STR by 3 levels to add more to CON (for that even number). At level 11 I had another crisis of Strength/Faith when I realised I could up my INT to get Combat Expertise (which would pair with the Stalwart feat and the Come And Get Me rage power), but managed to find a way around the INT requirement (a dip into Brawler). As you can see this has made leveling up my stats more interesting and dynamic than the usual model.
There are some downsides though:
Firstly, the "Interesting and Dynamic" aspect is also "More Bookkeeping". Not everyone will enjoy this. It also means you have to remember how many points you have saved and how many you've spent. It's not tremendously difficult to do - your stats should always equal a (15+level) point buy - but it is extra work. We also had an item that gave the user +1 INT if they could pass some tests, and that has to be remembered and taken into account.
Secondly it makes your racial stat-bonuses more impactful.
My generap premise for casting classes is that you want to have a bonus spell in your highest level slot (I can go into that later if needed). With this system 9th level casters can only reliably achieve that by taking racial abilities in the relevant stat, or by starting at an "old age" category (-3 STR/DEX/CON, +2 INT-WIS/CHA). This isn't terribly different to the usual method, and is essentially inherent to the idea of "balancing" MAD and SAD classes, but it does remove some character concepts from play (eg. A young Dwarf Wizard) unless you're willing to be "less optimal".
Those are my main thoughts.
In general I love it. I do think it's harder for newer players, but if your players are up to it I highly recommend it.
PS If you were actually asking how the system works mechanically (or if anyone else doesn't understsnd that) let me know and I can explain that in more detail.
Carrion Crown has a built in boon system using the harrow deck. the rules for it are in the players guide.
Elephant in the Room feat tax rules.
From what I hears, it was partly done because they've got a E6-campaign setting [only levels up to 6; feats for what would be level-ups given after that].
For level 1 HP I've varied from as rolled to max but have settled on roll with a reroll if half or less. Level 2 is reroll a 1 or 2. Level 3 reroll a 1.
I give a homebrew variant of the leadership feat out at when the character's storyline would suit it (closer to AD&D 1e cha bonuses and name level bonuses) and give bonus feats, magic items and other modifiers based on their position in organisations (eg the leader of the Knights of the Round Table may wield Excalibur).
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Automatic Bonus Progression at a +2 scaling rate
25 PB or the Big Damn Heroes array: 18 16 14 14 12 10
1 free Campaign Specific trait if running an AP generally
Either Half+1 HP or Max -2 HP. I prefer the latter for game balance but the former is good for gritty? games.
Background Skills are always on and all Non-Int based classes are bumped up to 4+Int Skills.
We have our own version of "Elephant in the Room" feats.
Power Attack/Deadly Aim/Piranha Strike/Combat Expertise are just combat options. Weapon Finesse is free. Improved Maneuver Feats include the greater version at BAB +6. Weapon Focus, Dodge(Mobility included), Two Weapon Fighting and all the Saving Throw feats scale. Point Blank and Precise Shot are merged.
4 Level casters get full Caster Level.
Psionics and Spheres of Power & Might are always allowed. Path of War is allowed sometimes, Deadly Agility is always allowed.
Scavion, automatic bonus progression at +2, you mean +2 levels so at 1st level you would look at the level 3 of the chart?
Deadly agility sounds like a great feat...from 2014!.
I allow additionally feats or skills to be acquired in many caes, if they can find, and actually spend the time, with a trainer. I.e. a low level ranger finding a professional trapper and spending a few days helping them out, or sparring.
I have also used a nymph, which gave a boon to our bard. I have had gods send avatars that do "something" to players based on the RP aspect.
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Everyone start with 150 gp and
(3)CLW potions each (1d8+3)
(2)CMW potion (2d8+6)
Potion of magic weapon (1)
Vial anti-toxin (1)
Handy Haversack
Everfull Mug (3/day 12 ounces of fine beer or wine)
Compass
Blank Map book (waterproof)
Scrivener’s kit
Silk Rope 50 ft.(1)
Grapple hook or Grapple arrow/bolt (1)
Bandolier (1)
Candles (5)
Sleeping Bag/Bedroll(1)
Mess Kit(1)
Besides the Elephant feat consolidation rules,I got this from Baldwin the Merciful, It has worked well so far
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Wow, that is a lot of starting gear. Getting a handy haversack at level one is really nice.
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Scavion, automatic bonus progression at +2, you mean +2 levels so at 1st level you would look at the level 3 of the chart?
Deadly agility sounds like a great feat...from 2014!.
Right, you would start at the 3rd level position on the chart. It's not absolutely perfect since the early levels feel slightly off, but it feels pretty on point by mid levels(5+).
Honestly for the Path of War feats, they're probably all fine even in a PoW-less game. The limitations and scarcity of the Martial Training feats would probably also make having actual maneuvers, boosts, counters and stances feel less "OMG Weeaboo Fightan Magic".
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We do rolled stats: 4d6, reroll 1's, take best 3 total, generate 6 complete sets, make grid, take best number from each row (I still couldn't get an 18 :p)
Good lord just do 20 point buy and call it a day!
Edit: I see this so often where groups will try to make rolling for stats fair and balanced by adding so many steps to it that it feels like the Point Buy system insulted their mother.
We do rolled stats: 4d6, reroll 1's, take best 3 total, generate 6 complete sets, make grid, take best number from each row (I still couldn't get an 18 :p)Good lord just do 20 point buy and call it a day!
Edit: I see this so often where groups will try to make rolling for stats fair and balanced by adding so many steps to it that it feels like the Point Buy system insulted their mother.
I agree.
If you really insist on rolled stats and want to balance it the best way I've seen is - each player rolls a set of stats, then they can choose to use their own set or any of the sets the other players rolled. You may end up with all the players using the same set of stats.
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I, too, agree. Is there any reason for rolled stats other than "it threatens my nostalgia when I can't generate characters like I did 20 years ago"? I heard people argue that they like randomness in character generation, but since those people never apply that to stuff like gender, hair color, race, traits, archetypes etc., I think that's just denial. I remove all randomness from character creation, including starting gold, and height/weight/age (within the normal boundaries for the race).
The same goes for rolled HP. There is no other randomness in the levelup process, why should there be for HP? It brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.
I agree, we should get max HP per HD every level.
20 point buy would be fine if it was an actual 20 point buy. What I mean is you get 20 stat points to distribute as you wish, 1 point is 1 stat point(16 base max). So you could start with 16, 16, 16, 12, 10, 10 before racial and level mods.
I can understand people who want to roll, but I rarely every have luck with rolling;)
Any one let the players have the benefits of both their base class and a NPC class like aristocrat, expert, etc.? Basically you get the better of each in HD, BA, skill points, weapon and armor prof. class skills. Maybe if you choose commoner you a +2 con bonus since it gets nothing otherwise.
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I give out strictly average hp (rounding up every even level). I don't see the point in max HP; after all, if you're going to do that you'll probably need to do the same to the bad guys and hand out more CLW wands; it just makes combat take longer and benefits the SoS/SoD users who don't care about hp.
It is a bit odd that we've had point buy since 3.0 to generate (supposedly) balanced characters, but the game still officially has rolled hp. AFAICT, average hp isn't even mentioned as an option in any of the books. Maybe in PFS?
I dunno what 2e does.
I, too, agree. Is there any reason for rolled stats other than "it threatens my nostalgia when I can't generate characters like I did 20 years ago"? I heard people argue that they like randomness in character generation, but since those people never apply that to stuff like gender, hair color, race, traits, archetypes etc., I think that's just denial.
I don't think that's quite true, I've seen people roll for everything. I do think the stats being rolled doee tend to be arbitrary sometimes though.
The same goes for rolled HP. There is no other randomness in the levelup process, why should there be for HP? It brings absolutely nothing positive to the game.
I couldn't agree more. In our Iron Gods game we roll twice and take the higher for HP (max. HP at level 1). My bloodrager - the only front-line character in the party - managed to get two 1's and a 2 in his first three level-ups. It's unlikely but it happens. It also affects some characters MUCH more than others, so you can avoid caring about it by playing a class that doesn't care about HP (eg. Full Casters).
I like rolling stats. Sometimes you can get crazy high, equivalent to a 35 point buy. Obviously you could also get a negative point buy but that's nearly impossible. Especially if you're allowing dropping of 1d6 on 4d6.
Besides life isn't fair, why does character generation have to be?
(Also, it's 'technically' fair as everyone had the exact same opportunity...)Plus, in a game of dice rolls it feels kinda odd to me to not roll any to 'start' the game.
Basically it can make the game easy, or it can make the game hard. If you want to leave that to chance then great, but most people don't.
You could have a new player roll low and be behind the 8-ball the entire game while the veteran teaching them rolls high and blasts through everything. Is that fun for the new player? Maybe ...?
You could have someone who feels powerless come into the game wanting a power fantasy to take them out if it for the evening only to roll the equivalent of a 3 point buy and spend the next 2 years trudging through a miserable side-kick role while their friends have fun around them.
There will be times when the disparity between players is a good thing, but if you want that then choose it, don't leave it to chance (unless everyone wants to ... then obviously it's fine).
Right, the veteran will run circles round the newbie, and will be more lilely to play a Wizard (or play it well anyway). Why give the veteran a chance for even more advantages and make the newbie feel even more useless?
If you want to buff the newbie then buff them. You don't need dice rolls to randomly determine it, and you certainly don't want random numbers to make the disparity worse.
And no, regulating dice rolls into point buy doesn't turn into regulating everything else. That's the "Slippery Slope" argument ... and I don't feel like derailing this thread with that, it'll just get the thread locked.
There's an excitement to rolling your character's stats, I gotta admit.
But it doesn't nearly match the disappointment of rolling a terrible array and having to play with it.
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I don't normally think of "20 point-buy when the AP expects 15" or "roll for HP (reroll 1s) OR take half-hit-die+1" really count as boons so much as options.
I do give PCs boons on occasion, by means of NPCs they help. If they get in a random encounter with reasonable/sensible people ("knowing when to give up" counts), they can get clues or information. Anything from, "you returned the golden locket to the baker rather than pawning it, so you get enough Baked Goods of Gratitude that you don't have to pay as much monthly rent for the next year" to "The orcs respect both your power and cunning, and some of them will want to spar with you the next time you pass by." Rewarding Good alignments, while still setting up dangerous fights.
Similarly, if a religious PC goes out of the way to do something for a religion, they'll get a boon from that religion:
- Kill a bunch of especially dangerous undead and bring the corpses to the Pharasmin mortuary for last rites? Pharasma gives you all a boon so that the next death effect that hits you, you can just place the d20 down on a 20 and declare that your saving throw.
- Murder a proponent of justice, implicating someone else whose alibi is suspicious because you had previously drugged that person? Norgorber notices, and gives you +5 on skill checks relating to establishing your alibi.
- Throw a really loud party, all through the night, where everyone tries to learn how to play the flute with no instruction, and you ignore anyone who tells you to keep that racket down? For the subsequent 27 hours, a boon of Azathoth gives you a +2 size bonus to whichever ability score relates to the roll of 1d6, even if it wouldn't make sense, like WIS!
If you're irreligious, figuring out something important with no religious assistance is such a stroke of genius that you get to reroll the d20 once.
Similarly, anyone who profanes a religious shrine or temple without being careful (using something like Desecrate or Hallow or a lot of Religious Water beforehand stops this from happening), gets a divine punishment. Taking a bathroom break on a shrine to Erastil might make any food you didn't grow or slaughter yourself taste disgusting, while toppling a statue of Abadar just because the temple staff were all LE embezzlers might end you up with a long, boring audit. Or defacing a temple to Razmir might result in the divine punishment of getting mugged by Razmirites.
Basically, I like giving little one-time benefits to my players for doing something important. They get rewarded, and they can pull out those rewards in a dangerous situational circumstance.
It is always nice to give boons to the players when they do their job with intelligence, cunning, charm, good morales, creativity, being in character, doing little or no collateral damage, etc..
So as a DM, have you ever given the players any kind of boon/bonus? If so what did you give them?
I tend to hand out boons to the underdogs:
1) A dwarven bard got a racial -2 Int instead of -2 Cha.
2) A samsaran omdura (think Cha based inquisitor + paladin cross-breed) got +2 Str and +2 Cha instead of +2 Int and +2 Wis.
3) A gnome got access to the Pack Rat feat (once per day pull mundane item out of your backpack).
4) A healing focused cleric got access to the Battlefield Healer story feat (don't provoke AOO on healing spells) including immediate completion benefit.
5) As a quest reward, every player earned a permanent +4 to their weakest ability score.
They still had to pay for their boons in some way: The dwarf was still without +2 Cha, samsaran still with -2 Con, gnome and cleric still had to spend a feat, and the players didn't get anything else for completing the quest.
IIRC I handed out very little (really) free stuff. In my book players are already in a strong position (many books to choose from, many guides out there, multiple brains to solve problems), so they don't really need free stuff. And getting things done without boons from someone else feels more rewarding.
A boon I gave out is: at every level you get one bonus skill point that must be put into a skill with no direct life-or-death benefits. I forget the exact list, but you could take Knowledge: Engineering but not Knowledge: Planes (which gives you advantages against demons). You could can take Profession: Sailor, but not Perception (which gives you an advantage against ambushes).
This allows people to make more rounded characters without sacrificing survivability.
Re:Rolled v Point buy stats. I always get my players to roll 4d6 in order. I have criteria for allowing rerolls but generally get them to roll two sets of stats and to play one. My main reasons are:
1. If a character dies I want the player to play a different character.
2. The stats don't make a huge difference in practice. In fact I've found that players who have worse characters tend to rely on the stats less and so play the percentages less, lasting longer as a result of better strategic and tactical play.
A boon I gave out is: at every level you get one bonus skill point that must be put into a skill with no direct life-or-death benefits. I forget the exact list, but you could take Knowledge: Engineering but not Knowledge: Planes (which gives you advantages against demons). You could can take Profession: Sailor, but not Perception (which gives you an advantage against ambushes).
This allows people to make more rounded characters without sacrificing survivability.
That's essentially the same as Background Skills which I use and endorse (I give 2 skp at 1st level and 1 thereafter). There's a gaping loophole in that it includes Perform, so Bards and so on should obviously be banned from taking that.
Going as far back as AD&D 1e I gave all my players their basic starting gear for free. I still do that sometimes. I've been known to give a free magic item here and there, a couple of extra skill points, and it's been a tradition for the last twenty years or so I give out a couple of thousand XP every year for Christmas.
It would be nice for everyone to get a "Christmas present". Basically a nicely wrapped box with a magic item or a random prize including stuff like a +1 ability boost, bonus skill points, bonus max HP, etc. as well as money, magic items, art, jewelry, etc.
I like granting Max HP per Level, all skills are class skills, better stat progression(+1 ability point per level), +1/2 level to AC, and +2 to base saves. but no traits, favored class bonuses, stat boosting magic items, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of resistance, and rings of protection.
Sometimes I use a boon system of some kind. This system might grant ability boost, bonus feats, extra spells known, class abilities, racial abilities, spell powers, special powers, etc..
I also like granting free ranks 2-4 skills, these skills are always craft, knowledge, profession, and perform.
Yeah, I second the distinction made earlier between 'options for character creation/leveling up' and actual boons, which are usually infrequent, unique things a GM can give to a player.
I'm reminded of one boon I gave out to a player who put a lot of thought into his non-magical weapon he commissioned. It was a darkwood quarterstaff shod in cold iron one end and alchemical silver on another. He played a ranger, and I liked the thought he was putting into his character's image, so I gave his staff a little something extra.
The darkwood tree his staff was made from was from a grove that was a burial site for... something. I can't remember anymore. The effect of this is that whenever the ranger landed a killing blow with his staff, speak with dead was cast as a supernatural ability on the victim. Of course, I didn't tell the ranger this. He would have to discover it the first time he landed a killing blow. :)
I mean, every GM gives out "boons" like that, right?
Nope.
Plenty of GMs don't think about personalized touches for a PC, and I've found this tends to be even more likely if the GM is using a published adventure or AP. Some GMs use those as tools to make a great campaign, but some GMs just do what the little text boxes tell them to do.
I've tried handing out more esoteric boons - titles, land grants, rights to a ruin or grant the PCs legal rights in a city. Honestly, if there's not a + in there somewhere my players tend to ignore/forget it. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Well, you know your players. Give them things they'll enjoy.