Welcome to the Gunslinger Class Playtest!

[Arachnofiend]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Yeah, the Quickdraw paradigm doesn't work for me, because it locks you out of all the other "do something interesting with a Strike" feats.

I realize drawing and reloading weapons is a big thing in this class.

The Ways do a nice job of drawing weapons at the start of combat, although I think you'll get some friction with existing play practices where parties already walk through the dungeon with weapons in hand, or GMs insisting that you have to walk around with weapons sheathed otherwise these class features wouldn't be valuable. Also, the Sniper way has this weird thing where if you've already drawn your gun before combat, you don't get the damage bonus because you can't draw it and then use "the gun you just drew".

But I think the best solution is something else I've seen proposed - pair Reloading with interesting actions. Do a Recall Knowledge for free while your Reload. Move while Reloading (this already exists, and is a good example of what we need more of). Maybe grit your teeth (see what I did there) while you Reload and attempt a saving throw to throw off a bad condition at the same time. Stare threateningly at someone while you Reload and bring you your gun again their direction.

Reloading is a signature of this class. But it should be an interesting signature, not a chore to try to circumvent.

What if Gunslingers could just perform any skill action that does not require a free hand while reloading? That'd "earn back" the action lost to reloading without giving the GS a significant damage boost and without locking them into a particular mental stat.

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Reloading is a signature of this class. But it should be an interesting signature, not a chore to try to circumvent.

I can’t agree more. “ I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five'? Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track myself...” - Dirty Harry.

[roquepo]

This is not very clear to me, after causing a misfire due to an ability like Risky Reload, do you have to pass the DC 5 thereafter with every shot until you clean the gun or just clearing the weapon restores it to its normal state for the day?

[beowulf99]

roquepo wrote:

This is not very clear to me, after causing a misfire due to an ability like Risky Reload, do you have to pass the DC 5 thereafter with every shot until you clean the gun or just clearing the weapon restores it to its normal state for the day?

As far as I can tell, no. The only time you have to make the flat check for Misfire is when you try to fire a firearm that wasn't cleaned properly. A misfire as a result of a feat bypasses the flat check, and doesn't enforce a flat check unless the firearm is then not cleaned within that day.

[Dubious Scholar]

[e-mail] wrote:

What I missed, that nobody has mentioned (that I've seen), from my read-through of this is the gun-based melee options that the Gunslinger had in 1e. Things like bayonets, pistol whipping/rifle clubbing, and even a shoot and sear (fire your gun, then burn your enemy with the still-hot barrel) would be a great way to add flavorful melee options to the class, and might even build into a new Way for the Gunslinger.

To be sure, bayonets, pistol whips, etc. could give additional options for the Way of the Drifter, without tying up the free hand needed for reloading.

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

[Michael Sayre]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

We actually had rules for pistol whips and butt strikes in the first couple playtest drafts, but they got pulled for fixing much too late in the process to replace them here. Whether they end up as improvised weapon things anyone can do like smacking someone with a bow, more like a shield boss (so you can put a "reinforced stock" or bayonet on your gun and enchant that as a melee weapon), or something in the class feat/feature territory is still open, so I'm interested in what preferences might be for that direction.

[Dubious Scholar]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

We actually had rules for pistol whips and butt strikes in the first couple playtest drafts, but they got pulled for fixing much too late in the process to replace them here. Whether they end up as improvised weapon things anyone can do like smacking someone with a bow, more like a shield boss (so you can put a "reinforced stock" or bayonet on your gun and enchant that as a melee weapon), or something in the class feat/feature territory is still open, so I'm interested in what preferences might be for that direction.

Ooh, just occurred to me pistol whip also solves the reload problem at lower levels if it's equipment. Like, 1d4 reinforced stock would be a 1h melee weapon attached to your pistol, so it leaves a hand free for reloads. But it's a weak weapon, so the level 6 feat lets you upgrade to something good like a longsword.

I think that may be my preference. Just using the weapon without equipment leads to the question of using its runes, but that needs some other cost then to avoid being a massive gold advantage (or I guess they can also just be low damage die? Like a feat saying you've rigged a special bayonet or reinforced it somehow).

Improvised weapon I'd leave out -the rules already support doing that anyways, but I think what most people want is a non-improvised weapon that can be supported as a good backup or for the blade and gun style stuff.

[Invictus Novo]

Sword and Pistol is really hard to use. The topic of reloading without a free hand aside, I decided to make a Kobold Drifter that used his bite attack to alternate with the gun. Unfortunately the benefit quickly goes out the window because the act of reloading the gun provokes AoO and is not mentioned in the feat like firing the weapon. So it went something like this.

Fire Pistol > Attack with bite to a Flat-Footed foe > Reload...oops this gave the opponent an AoO > Fire pistol...oh wait, they used their AoO on me already so no real benefit from the feat > repeat...

While I love what is trying to be done with the Drifter, it seems the concept just is rather flawed by mechanics. Some tweaking to how they handle reloads are really necessary to bring the concept to life I think.

[Midnightoker]

If it’s any consolation on sword and pistol it works really well with unarmed strike since Michael Sayre confirmed that it is intended to work with those as well (one word specified weapon in error but the rest reads melee attack).

[Arachnofiend]

Read the post, Invictus was using an unarmed strike and still having problems. SaP might need to give free Steps to work.

[Invictus Novo]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Read the post, Invictus was using an unarmed strike and still having problems. SaP might need to give free Steps to work.

Exactly. The two solutions I can come up with are:

1) Simply add to the feat that your next reload does not provoke an AoO either.

2) Allow for a free step so you can reload in safety (though against large or bigger foes this still doesn't solve the problem). Though I'm not sure I like that either as it takes you out of melee range for your next strike.

Frankly, it would be nice if Gunslingers (or at least Drifters) had a built in mechanic that made it so reloading does not provoke AoO. That said, not sure what that would do (if anything) to balance.

[Ascalaphus]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

We actually had rules for pistol whips and butt strikes in the first couple playtest drafts, but they got pulled for fixing much too late in the process to replace them here. Whether they end up as improvised weapon things anyone can do like smacking someone with a bow, more like a shield boss (so you can put a "reinforced stock" or bayonet on your gun and enchant that as a melee weapon), or something in the class feat/feature territory is still open, so I'm interested in what preferences might be for that direction.

I'd say the shield bash/shield attachments paradigm would work well here. By having an attachable you can keep a bit of control over how runes on one side of the item affect the other side of the item. And you could have silver/cold iron attachables without getting into questions of whether the whole gun has to be made out of silver.

It would also give another option for the reloading/free hands question. It might need some specification for 2H guns with bayonets though (although you could already play a bitey goblin with a longarm so it's not a huge stretch).

A key thing to pay attention to though is things that specify weapons in the OTHER hand. Whether that should indeed be limited to the other hand, or that you can do some gun+bayonet stuff and keep the other hand free for reload (but the attachable weapon might be weaker than the standalone melee options).

But again this isn't an entirely new question; "other hand" questions also come up when people use bite or tail unarmed strikes. Let's please allow gritted teeth :P

[Midnightoker]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Read the post, Invictus was using an unarmed strike and still having problems. SaP might need to give free Steps to work.

yeah, my bad. Misread that.

Invictus Novo wrote:

Frankly, it would be nice if Gunslingers (or at least Drifters) had a built in mechanic that made it so reloading does not provoke AoO. That said, not sure what that would do (if anything) to balance.

Maybe a "if you landed a melee strike against a foe this turn, your next reload action loses the manipulate trait"?

[TheGentlemanDM]

It's a good start.

You would still have the issue that attacking with a firearm provokes an attack of opportunity, though.

[WatersLethe]

Or attempted a melee strike. I'm leery of abilities that double punish misses!

[Milo v3]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

It's a good start.

You would still have the issue that attacking with a firearm provokes an attack of opportunity, though.

The feat already removes that.

[Unicore]

I think sword and pistol style is going to be a fire, strike, is my enemy dead? Yes, reload. No, melee strike again, move, or risk an attack of opportunity. AoOs shouldn’t be that common. I could see a 4th or 6th level feat to help out with this, but it seems a little to niche a problem to have broken anything

[Laki7z]

Can I ask what the intention is with giving option for return fire level 8 and then level 9 give the pistolero "pistoleros retort". Sure, some minor differences but there are so many reactions to gain midlvl and so few to use

Return fire is so much cooler but feels like a waste because I am forced with another similar yet not similar feature the next level, unless they would get more reactions. Isn't it *the* dual pistol wielder/quick drawer after all?

[RexAliquid]

Unicore wrote:

I think sword and pistol style is going to be a fire, strike, is my enemy dead? Yes, reload. No, melee strike again, move, or risk an attack of opportunity. AoOs shouldn’t be that common. I could see a 4th or 6th level feat to help out with this, but it seems a little to niche a problem to have broken anything

Yeah, if you have a melee weapon in hand, there isn't a reason to provoke an AoO by reloading. Either step away or Strike with your melee.

[Arachnofiend]

RexAliquid wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think sword and pistol style is going to be a fire, strike, is my enemy dead? Yes, reload. No, melee strike again, move, or risk an attack of opportunity. AoOs shouldn’t be that common. I could see a 4th or 6th level feat to help out with this, but it seems a little to niche a problem to have broken anything

Yeah, if you have a melee weapon in hand, there isn't a reason to provoke an AoO by reloading. Either step away or Strike with your melee.

You're only getting flat-footed on the strike immediately after your shot, you have to keep alternating for the feat to work. Unless you expect SaP characters to just operate at a -3 to hit for every round after the first?

[Unicore]

Arachnofiend wrote:

RexAliquid wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think sword and pistol style is going to be a fire, strike, is my enemy dead? Yes, reload. No, melee strike again, move, or risk an attack of opportunity. AoOs shouldn’t be that common. I could see a 4th or 6th level feat to help out with this, but it seems a little to niche a problem to have broken anything

Yeah, if you have a melee weapon in hand, there isn't a reason to provoke an AoO by reloading. Either step away or Strike with your melee.

You're only getting flat-footed on the strike immediately after your shot, you have to keep alternating for the feat to work. Unless you expect SaP characters to just operate at a -3 to hit for every round after the first?

Or they can step back every other round when they need to reload in the 1 in 5 or 8 encounters that they have to reload when there is a threat of an attack of opportunity.

[Invictus Novo]

Unicore wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

RexAliquid wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think sword and pistol style is going to be a fire, strike, is my enemy dead? Yes, reload. No, melee strike again, move, or risk an attack of opportunity. AoOs shouldn’t be that common. I could see a 4th or 6th level feat to help out with this, but it seems a little to niche a problem to have broken anything

Yeah, if you have a melee weapon in hand, there isn't a reason to provoke an AoO by reloading. Either step away or Strike with your melee.

You're only getting flat-footed on the strike immediately after your shot, you have to keep alternating for the feat to work. Unless you expect SaP characters to just operate at a -3 to hit for every round after the first?

Or they can step back every other round when they need to reload in the 1 in 5 or 8 encounters that they have to reload when there is a threat of an attack of opportunity.

My main point is that in the feat, one of the benefits is that the ranged attack will not provoke an AoO if it follows a melee strike. Well, considering that reload DOES provoke and is not called out by the feat, that benefit becomes a moot point after your first shot.

As an aside, to your point unless they make a recall knowledge check and happen to get the info as to whether they have an AoO, the Gunslinger doesn't know whether an encounter has that threat or not (unless they fought the creature type before). Considering the Gunslinger isn't likely to be known for their intelligence, that is not a good bet.

[RexAliquid]

It is okay to find out the hard way, sometimes

[parkedcar]

Invictus Novo wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Read the post, Invictus was using an unarmed strike and still having problems. SaP might need to give free Steps to work.

Exactly. The two solutions I can come up with are:

1) Simply add to the feat that your next reload does not provoke an AoO either.

2) Allow for a free step so you can reload in safety (though against large or bigger foes this still doesn't solve the problem). Though I'm not sure I like that either as it takes you out of melee range for your next strike.

Frankly, it would be nice if Gunslingers (or at least Drifters) had a built in mechanic that made it so reloading does not provoke AoO. That said, not sure what that would do (if anything) to balance.

or something that is proactive, like hitting with a melee strike makes your next reload action lose the manipulate trait (but still require a free hand).

in the early game, you could get away with multiple pistols and drop between attacks, though the other loading options the class grants them gives them no benefit v. AoO's.

Quote:

Or they can step back every other round when they need to reload in the 1 in 5 or 8 encounters that they have to reload when there is a threat of an attack of opportunity.

That really varies by campaign. in Age of Ashes, it feels closer to 1 in 3 or 1 in 4, especially in later books... and most of them also have 10 or 15 foot reach, so step-and-load is also not ideal. I would imagine that other games your mileage will vary, but my experience with pre-written adventures, AoO's (and things that are essentially AoO but with restrictions, like the creature can only do it with a specific natural attack) are frequent enough that this should be a concern.

[Unicore]

What about if the different ways had actions that allowed reloading to be a part of a skill action that potentially made it so that you didn't provoke attacks.

Like one based off deception and feinting for the sword and pistol character. You fire your gun, do this special activity that lets you reload and potentially feint your enemy, but only to your next melee attack, and it would only not provoke an attack of opportunity if successful. They you can melee attack with your third attack and have your weapon reloaded for next round/any reaction you might have.

[Keraki]

I would like to see a ranged disarm feat.

Something along the lines of a 1-3 action cost where you can use your weapon to shoot it out of their hands. Increase action cost to give a small bonus to disarm.

[Liam]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Depending upon how the final version of the doubling rings works, I could see the brace of pistols working even at higher levels if you don't have to invest in the runes for your pistol hand. For 2 gun fighting you only drop one gun, freeing your hand to reload the other and then drawing a new one with quick draw.

There's also other cool possibilities, depending on what concepts most appeal to people as they playtest the classes. I could see, for example, a magical bandolier that you actually slot fundamental runes into, and then it can hold a set number of pistols that those runes are all cloned to so you can draw, fire, drop, and then have it magically rematerialize in the bandolier where it gets automatically reloaded over some fixed period of time. That particular execution could be really interesting for a character who also wants to mix Alchemical Shot into their routine by crossing a bandolier of bombs for each element type across the opposite shoulder, for example, since that could also involve a lot of active variance in how many free hands you have during any given activity.

Or just have it produce the pistols that vanish and reload in x rounds after being dropped.

[Liam]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

We actually had rules for pistol whips and butt strikes in the first couple playtest drafts, but they got pulled for fixing much too late in the process to replace them here. Whether they end up as improvised weapon things anyone can do like smacking someone with a bow, more like a shield boss (so you can put a "reinforced stock" or bayonet on your gun and enchant that as a melee weapon), or something in the class feat/feature territory is still open, so I'm interested in what preferences might be for that direction.

A lot of early flintlock pistols had huge orb bases so they doubled as a a mace in close quarters. Fire your shot, switch your grip and bash away.

Bayonets became a thing early on both for muskets and pistols, weirdly enough.

[graystone]

Liam wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Oh yes please. Pistol Whip wasn't a particularly good deed in 1e but it was thematic as hell (and free, so).

Having a feat that lets you use a rifle to melee in place of a 1h weapon for deeds/feats that require it or something would be cool, or bayonet attachments (proper ones that don't interfere with shooting dammit).

We actually had rules for pistol whips and butt strikes in the first couple playtest drafts, but they got pulled for fixing much too late in the process to replace them here. Whether they end up as improvised weapon things anyone can do like smacking someone with a bow, more like a shield boss (so you can put a "reinforced stock" or bayonet on your gun and enchant that as a melee weapon), or something in the class feat/feature territory is still open, so I'm interested in what preferences might be for that direction.

A lot of early flintlock pistols had huge orb bases so they doubled as a a mace in close quarters. Fire your shot, switch your grip and bash away.

Bayonets became a thing early on both for muskets and pistols, weirdly enough.

Flintlock pistols with blades show up in the 17th and 18th centuries. Plain [socket] bayonets show up in the 15th century.

[The Raven Black]

I would like a feat that allows you to Shove an opponent 5ft back if you hit them with your bullet (and could be 10ft on a critical if you wish so). That would be flavorful IMO and would help with getting out of reach (and AoO) for your reload.

[Midnightoker]

The Raven Black wrote:

I would like a feat that allows you to Shove an opponent 5ft back if you hit them with your bullet (and could be 10ft on a critical if you wish so). That would be flavorful IMO and would help with getting out of reach (and AoO) for your reload.

Oh please, especially a "Point Blank Shot" Highwayman style move with a Blunderbuss (or other Scatter weapon) would be apropos and really cool

[beowulf99]

Midnightoker wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I would like a feat that allows you to Shove an opponent 5ft back if you hit them with your bullet (and could be 10ft on a critical if you wish so). That would be flavorful IMO and would help with getting out of reach (and AoO) for your reload.

Oh please, especially a "Point Blank Shot" Highwayman style move with a Blunderbuss (or other Scatter weapon) would be apropos and really cool

Yeah, I feel like the blunderbuss needs a bit more ceat love. The only feat tailored to it kinda sucks as is, since any miss apparently makes your gun explode.

[NightTrace]

So, not specifically Playtest related but based on how the "Dedication" archetype system works out, I'm kinda worried that a Rogue into Gunslinger Dedication and picking up Pistol Twirl would out scale the damage output of a Gunslinger on their own. Is that a problem?

I'm envisioning Sword & Pistol Rogues with Theif and just going all-in with Dex and CHA?

[NightTrace]

The Raven Black wrote:

I would like a feat that allows you to Shove an opponent 5ft back if you hit them with your bullet (and could be 10ft on a critical if you wish so). That would be flavorful IMO and would help with getting out of reach (and AoO) for your reload.

If you have Shieldblock and go Fighter Dedication and Basic Maneuver you can then take Aggressive Block.

It's not the cleanest investment, but there are ways to do it!

Also, if you're good with Athletics, Shove is a great action investment!

Shove->Fire->Reload!

[Dubious Scholar]

beowulf99 wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I would like a feat that allows you to Shove an opponent 5ft back if you hit them with your bullet (and could be 10ft on a critical if you wish so). That would be flavorful IMO and would help with getting out of reach (and AoO) for your reload.

Oh please, especially a "Point Blank Shot" Highwayman style move with a Blunderbuss (or other Scatter weapon) would be apropos and really cool

Yeah, I feel like the blunderbuss needs a bit more ceat love. The only feat tailored to it kinda sucks as is, since any miss apparently makes your gun explode.

I think it has thematic but not functional issues with the ways. It doesn't work with drifter at all, being 2h. Sniper mechanically works with it, but not thematically. (Although using one shot by charging and blasting is certainly an option) Pistol Twirling doesn't function with it, which is a shame as ranged feint would set up Vital Shot nicely. Pistolero actually works with it just fine across the board, and a 10ft step to close a gap is great with its short range. But it's counterintuitive that the pistol way is how you use a shotgun.

[AnimatedPaper]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Sniper mechanically works with it, but not thematically. (Although using one shot by charging and blasting is certainly an option)

Michael Sayre said on the Know Direction podcast he strongly associated the Sniper route with shotguns, in part based on his own personal background, and wants to see how he can tie those two together a bit more for everyone else.

[Dubious Scholar]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Sniper mechanically works with it, but not thematically. (Although using one shot by charging and blasting is certainly an option)

Michael Sayre said on the Know Direction podcast he strongly associated the Sniper route with shotguns, in part based on his own personal background, and wants to see how he can tie those two together a bit more for everyone else.

I think they need a way to set up flat footed better. Perhaps just a feat that lets them charge out of cover and shoot and keep the Hidden condition until after the strike?

I can see where he's coming from with shotguns being a hunting weapon, the issue is more that as written they hard cap at 15' range it seems. I feel like perhaps it would work better if it instead of being a cone it was just normal splash around the target to allow it to reach further.

As I said, mechanically shotguns work with Sniper (though Ghost Shot may be hard to set up if you have to be hidden within 15' right now!), it just doesn't fit my mental image. It certainly works if we go back to the origin of the term being a hunter of tiny birds, for which shot is an appropriate choice...

[AnimatedPaper]

Oh, agreed, though unlike him I didn't grow up around shotgun users (rifles and pistols being more of a thing, depending on which "hometown" you mean). I think its an example of common sense not being actually common; it was common sense for him, since to his background that was how you used shotguns, but for the rest of us without the kind of background he has it is more cognitively dissonant.

[Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Historically, you'd have a bracer of loaded pistols, and pistols are much more affordable now, as well as the errata having eased the restrictions on needing to count sheathes and bandoliers and letting you have a wider number of worn items...

This sounds super cool but, if this is the intent, the fact that a flintlock pistol weighs-in at 1 bulk is a liability to anyone that doesn't invest in strength and/or the Hefty Hauler skill feat. Sure, dueling pistols are L bulk, but a first level character needs to blow most of their starting wealth to afford just one (and can't afford more than two flintlocks pistols).

The bulk obstacle can be easily fixed by making the flintlock pistol L bulk, which makes more sense to me anyways.

What would really help this concept take-off would be a magical bracer that is etched with weapon runes and that can hold a limited amount of bulk. It works by temporarily passing the benefits of any weapon rune it carries onto the first strike of a compatible weapon drawn from that bracer. Not only would this work well for pistols, it would be great for throwing daggers and shuriken.

[Dubious Scholar]

Gizmo the Enemy of Mankind wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

Historically, you'd have a bracer of loaded pistols, and pistols are much more affordable now, as well as the errata having eased the restrictions on needing to count sheathes and bandoliers and letting you have a wider number of worn items...

This sounds super cool but, if this is the intent, the fact that a flintlock pistol weighs-in at 1 bulk is a liability to anyone that doesn't invest in strength and/or the Hefty Hauler skill feat. Sure, dueling pistols are L bulk, but a first level character needs to blow most of their starting wealth to afford just one (and can't afford more than two flintlocks pistols).

The bulk obstacle can be easily fixed by making the flintlock pistol L bulk, which makes more sense to me anyways.

What would really help this concept take-off would be a magical bracer that is etched with weapon runes and that can hold a limited amount of bulk. It works by temporarily passing the benefits of any weapon rune it carries onto the first strike of a compatible weapon drawn from that bracer. Not only would this work well for pistols, it would be great for throwing daggers and shuriken.

Yes, this item, please. So many weapons would love that.

[RoseTheLesbian]

I just have a quick question about Firearm Ace and the scatter trait:

Am I correct in assuming that the +2 circumstance bonus does not apply to the splash damage, because you're not actually rolling it? Or does it apply, as it's still damage? If so, then I would assume that it doesn't stack (i.e., a blunderbuss attack against someone wouldn't deal 1d8+2 damage plus 3 splash damage, but rather, 1d8+2 damage plus 1 splash damage), as you could count the splash damage as part of the same damage roll.

Of course, if a dev says something to the contrary, then I'll happily go with that ruling!

[Dubious Scholar]

An idea to help with various slinger styles and other stuff:

Loading Rune: At the beginning of your turn, it loads itself. Any ammo needed is teleported from mundane ammo carried on your person.

Level 3, same as returning?

I worry it becomes mandatory, but it takes the place of another property rune, reducing your damage per shot. And a fix based on spending gold doesn't eat valuable class feats.