What do YOU want to see in an Inventor


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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In the spirit of my previous incorrect guess, I'm going to go ahead and start the ball rolling on this one.

I am firmly convinced that an Inventor class will be announced within the next year, possibly within the next few weeks when the playtest goes up next month. There's just been too many hints, too many NPCs in both LO Legends and LO Pathfinder Society (I counted, there's about 10 named Inventors, Smiths, or Engineers between those two books) for me to think it is all just smoke with no fire. So I'd like to speculate to see what it might be, and get all of your thoughts as well.

Inventor:
-Largely built on the Alchemist chassis, the inventor gets a series of Epiphanies that work like field discoveries (minor to major improvements on whatever item the Inventor specializes in).
-3 or 4 area of focus to start: Talismans, Tools*, Smithing, Gunslinging. I wouldn't mind seeing a more steampunk or artificer slant with golems and/or mecha suits.
-*Strong possibility that this one winds up an Alchemist research field instead. That actually makes more sense to me, but Avernus (one of the named inventors) seems to specialize in Alchemist Tools, so I put it here for completeness.
-Similar ability to craft items for free each day. Talismans, Tools, and Gunslinger (bullets) are relatively easy to guess, but I'm vaguely stumped on Smithing. Perhaps temporary runes are coming? I would also not mind an ability like Inventive Offensive which allows you to apply traits to your weapons temporarily. Something that gives bonus HP or hardness to your shield would work well too.

As they get neither strong healing nor bombs, I would wager that Inventors are somewhat better at striking than alchemists, and have closer to martial proficiency. This would also allow them to be the baseline Gun martial.

The inventor class would also need some other baseline abilities that are different than a knock-off alchemist, or they may as well combine the two classes (or make the inventor a class archetype that swaps out Alchemy crafting for other kinds). What might that be, assuming this is indeed coming? If this is absorbing the Gunslinger class, perhaps some old grit abilities?


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If we get an inventor class, I want golems in some form. Even if it's just "you get an animal companion that's a construct".


Going from a mechanical guess at where the system is at, and what it could benefit from; it might get the same proficiency as Alchemist. If it does the kit would have to have strong advantages like the Alchemist’s ability to debuff. I would picture an inventor as adding onto things, like adding traits, and controlling the battle field better with ‘Inventions’ and snares. Daily Runes and buffs would also be unique niche, but i feel it would have to be different than the numerical bonuses of Mutagens. So more like Daily effect-type bonuses?


Salamileg wrote:
If we get an inventor class, I want golems in some form. Even if it's just "you get an animal companion that's a construct".

Isn't one of the eidolon forms for the summoner a construct?


That's what the playtest implied, yes.

"Arcane eidolons are usually formed of mental essence, also known as astral essence. They include dragon eidolons, the astral echoes of ancient dragons; construct eidolons, astral beings formed into a simple construct shape through arcane magic; and amalgam eidolons, scientifically crafted magical experiments built carefully out of astral thoughtforms."


The presence of inventors among NPCs may instead be to make interesting NPCs. One wants them to contribute to the story, being a part of the adventuring world without being adventurers themselves. What better way to have them not overshadow the PCs then to have them in their nooks and labs cranking away at making helpful gear? Their presence also maintains a significant portion of Golarion's backdrop. How many are in the field?

I'd want an Inventor to be a Dedication, not a full class.
It could perhaps augment an Alchemist, hopefully a Snare Ranger too, but I don't see it faring well on its own (and there'd be a notable chance it'd overshadow the Alchemist!).
I don't see there being enough "Inventions" for a class to base itself on. Alchemists needed a major revamping of alchemy, yet there doesn't seem to be a comparable seed for inventions other than Constructs, siege weapons, & firearms; two of which I'd think would be covered in other mechanics (and done better), and one which would be too niche.

Maybe they could make their own unique gear, like in Deadlands or Avatar:tLAB, though that'd take some serious balancing/capping of power.
And those are kind of steampunk, which lurks in Golarion, but isn't commonplace enough to push forward in a general product so soon (IMO).
An explicitly technological product might be interesting eventually, combining in Numerian aspects too. Then again, Paizo's mentioned how they don't want PF2 to step on Starfinder's toes too much, and may set Numeria aside for awhile.


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Castilliano wrote:

I'd want an Inventor to be a Dedication, not a full class.

It could perhaps augment an Alchemist, hopefully a Snare Ranger too, but I don't see it faring well on its own (and there'd be a notable chance it'd overshadow the Alchemist!).

Every class in the game overshadows the alchemist. It would be one thing if there was a chance it could overshadow a powerful class like a druid or bard. I wouldn't even want a new class to outshine a middle of the road class like the Rogue or Cleric at their particular specialty. But I don't see trying to avoid stepping on the toes of the weakest class in the game as a valid goal, to be quite honest.

If anything, take this as an opportunity to revise and empower the current alchemist to get it closer to the middle classes in power. I'm guessing there will be an additional round of errata between now and when the final version of this class comes out, assuming we're even getting one; fixes to the alchemist class might well be on the schedule.

Edit: bare minimum, baking Enduring Alchemy into Quick alchemy would be a great QoL improvement that would help a ton without significantly increasing the power of the class.

Also a way to incorporate new alchemy items to previous research fields is going to be handy. I'll make sad faces if there is never a way to get a Dread Ampoule or Blight Bomb as a perpetual infusion.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

I'd want an Inventor to be a Dedication, not a full class.

It could perhaps augment an Alchemist, hopefully a Snare Ranger too, but I don't see it faring well on its own (and there'd be a notable chance it'd overshadow the Alchemist!).

Every class in the game overshadows the alchemist. It would be one thing if there was a chance it could overshadow a powerful class like a druid or bard. I wouldn't even want a new class to outshine a middle of the road class like the Rogue or Cleric at their particular specialty. But I don't see trying to avoid stepping on the toes of the weakest class in the game as a valid goal, to be quite honest.

If anything, take this as an opportunity to revise and empower the current alchemist to get it closer to the middle classes in power. I'm guessing there will be an additional round of errata between now and when the final version of this class comes out, assuming we're even getting one; fixes to the alchemist class might well be on the schedule.

Fair point as to the general power level of Alchemists. (And Inventor would be a horrible class if it fell into the same chasm!)

Though I'd meant in terms of being the party's tag-along storefront. If the Inventor had better wares, Alchemist wouldn't merely be weak w/ a limited, unique niche. It'd be dead altogether.


I confess "I cobbled together some gears and wire from stuff in my satchel, and now I have something useful in a combat situation" strains my ability to suspend disbelief.


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The ‘Inventions’ could be more impactful and less numerous than Alchemist’s daily crafting. An invention for me could be as simple as creating Cover in an open plain with a Portable Wall; Spawning a turret is the most iconic interpretation of an inventor i have seen; Boxing Glove snares that force movement; or the ability to have some snares re-arm themselves. Put a limit on how many can be active at one time rather than number of uses would seem distinct enough from Alchemist to start from there.

Salamileg wrote:
If we get an inventor class, I want golems in some form. Even if it's just "you get an animal companion that's a construct".

I should try finishing the Effigy Master homebrew i was tinkering with. Just need to come up with more ways to distinguish them from every other AC Archetype out there.

Liberty's Edge

Ooof, not another thread derailed by people who still don't understand the power of utility that the Alchemist holds. People REALLY need to stop looking at DPR like it's the be-all, end-all metric to gauge the power of a Class, especially since the base Class gets more and more utility, power, and flexibility with every book that's released in the form of new Alchemical Items without even having to invest in new Feats or Archetypes.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Ooof, not another thread derailed by people who still don't understand the power of utility that the Alchemist holds. People REALLY need to stop looking at DPR like it's the be-all, end-all metric to gauge the power of a Class, especially since the base Class gets more and more utility, power, and flexibility with every book that's released in the form of new Alchemical Items without even having to invest in new Feats or Archetypes.

Not quite correct (in my opinion at least). As I mention in my edit, perpetual infusion is a hard limiting factor on how much utility the Alchemist gains with each release. Now, if they figure out a way to correct that by allowing new releases to be incorporated into current research fields, then some of my criticism will go away. A revision to the Chirurgeon basic ability along the same lines, making it so that you get formulas for healing elixirs in general instead of three specific ones, wouldn't go amiss.

They'll still be action limited for the utility they bring, but that's a lot harder to untangle without breaking stuff, so I'm less interested in seeing that revised.

Liberty's Edge

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Perpetual Infusions is a fair point I suppose but that's something that relates only to the Alchemical items that are part of your Research Field .. I'm not sure I see why or how that can be viewed is a hard limit on the Alchemist given that they can always use their Batches of Reagents to create the latest and greatest Alchemical Items from the hot new book that gets released every month, something that NO other class has the privilege of doing without selecting a Feat through leveling up or spending downtime retraining. One could argue that Prepared Spellcasters could do this by buying and adding new Spells to their Spellbook but that is a downtime task whereas the Alchemist simply needs to own the Formula to use it, there isn't even a check involved if you have the Formula, BAM you instantly expand your versatility.

Action limitations, also a fair point but I posit that with the new Bulk/Carrying rules this is basically moot because it essentially means that the use of any Alchemical Item is either a 1 or 2 Action Activity very much on par with most Spells and effects from Magical Items. If you already have it made but not held it costs 2 Actions that can be split up between rounds (something that Spellcasters, again, do not have the ability to do). If you need to use Quick Alchemy it costs 2 Actions on the same turn (but you can always take Enduring Alchemy to split this between turns if you so choose)

On the note of bemoaning the derail, I suppose that's your right being OP and all so yeah, my bad on that I guess.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Ooof, not another thread derailed by people who still don't understand the power of utility that the Alchemist holds. People REALLY need to stop looking at DPR like it's the be-all, end-all metric to gauge the power of a Class, especially since the base Class gets more and more utility, power, and flexibility with every book that's released in the form of new Alchemical Items without even having to invest in new Feats or Archetypes.

Not quite correct (in my opinion at least). As I mention in my edit, perpetual infusion is a hard limiting factor on how much utility the Alchemist gains with each release. Now, if they figure out a way to correct that by allowing new releases to be incorporated into current research fields, then some of my criticism will go away. A revision to the Chirurgeon basic ability along the same lines, making it so that you get formulas for healing elixirs in general instead of three specific ones, wouldn't go amiss.

They'll still be action limited for the utility they bring, but that's a lot harder to untangle without breaking stuff, so I'm less interested in seeing that revised.

And I'll add that (I believe) I do understand the power of utility for an Alchemist. That's the niche that Inventor would be vying for, assuming the latter could invent/rig on the fly not merely during daily prep. I also dislike that such a niche varies in value so much (depending on the adventure and the prep/gold of one's allies) and the reserves can burn out so quickly.

(I suppose one could argue an Alchemist's niche is the +1 net they can often bestow via their highest level items compared to the standard equipment at their level, but those are situational enough I consider them under the same "utility" umbrella.)

What would an adventurer Inventor actually do?
Now think whether that needs a full class, an Alchemist Research Field, or could be covered in a Dedication. Or maybe only skill feats & gear.


It sort of seems like some sort of "inventor" or "artificer" is kind of squeezed between "the Alchemist, perhaps with a new research field" and "the ranger who specializes in snares."


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And given that D&D 5E actually has an Artificer class (with and Alchemist specialty), I would guess that Paizo would want to steer clear of that concept.

Of course, all bets are off if they have come up with a truly novel class concept -- but unfortunately for us, anyone with any real knowledge of said concept will have had to sign an NDA.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
It sort of seems like some sort of "inventor" or "artificer" is kind of squeezed between "the Alchemist, perhaps with a new research field" and "the ranger who specializes in snares."

That was partly what prompted me to create a thread. I can easily see how any consumable focused class could (and arguably should) be an alchemist research field. I still think it could use some tweaks and some QoL buffs, but the class gets the job done for the most part. A talisman, tool, or even scroll alchemist isn't too hard to imagine if you stretch the basic abilities enough, perhaps through a class archetype.

Where I'd want to see a new class enter into the fray is with permanent traits. The monk class and the ancestry feat I linked to gives us an idea of how traits can be adjusted for fun and profit; I'd like to see a class that centers themselves on that for both items and (to a limited extent) construct creatures. So, basically, less quick alchemy, more "your sword has been jury-rigged to be a a trip weapon for the day".

In fact, I honestly would have just assumed that's what any new crafting class would focus on, were it not for Avernus and the talisman specialist inventor in LO PFS.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
It sort of seems like some sort of "inventor" or "artificer" is kind of squeezed between "the Alchemist, perhaps with a new research field" and "the ranger who specializes in snares."

I can’t see it as a Research Field while still having it claim to be an Alchemist.

An Artificer would be the best concise way of imagining it before refining the idea further.

Castilliano wrote:
Now think whether that needs a full class, an Alchemist Research Field, or could be covered in a Dedication. Or maybe only skill feats & gear.

We have the Swashbuckler which has debilitations and precision damage almost identical to the Rogue with the movement capabilities of the Monk and some Fighter Feats thrown in for good measure. Investigator has the Precision Damage and Skill Feats of a Rogue with the ability to craft some Alchemical items like the Alchemist. Why isn’t that considered as eclipsing said classes? The only answer i can think of is because of Thematics and the Sum of the Class is greater then the individual Features being used.


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I would like to see them having a choice of a suit, weapon, or construct that they can work on and customize with feats. Close to a mechanic in starfinder, with a drone, experimental armor, experimental weapon. I also hope they don't get something like quick alchemy for tools/talismans/etc, I already have a hard time actually picturing an adventuring alchemist creating stuff on the fly, somehow carrying 40 bombs in their bag and infinity flasks in their alchemist kit for later elixir making.


Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
It sort of seems like some sort of "inventor" or "artificer" is kind of squeezed between "the Alchemist, perhaps with a new research field" and "the ranger who specializes in snares."
I can’t see it as a Research Field while still having it claim to be an Alchemist.

I could see an alchemist research field devoted primarily to metallurgy and material engineering. You can use chemicals and process to get your materials to do what you want to do with them.

Liberty's Edge

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What I'd like to see.

An option for a mindless mechanical companion that is NOT magical, not a Golem, and not "alien" in any way. Give it the Minion trait like an AC or Familiar and define it VERY narrowly to function in specific ways and able to follow a limited number of instructions.

Gunsmithing and Chemistry (Not Alchemy, I'm talking pure refined science not steeped in any amount of mysticism whatsoever). This should more or less speak for itself.

Masterwork Armorers and Blacksmiths. A true AAA, top of their class ultra gifted smith who is able to create and improve Weapons and Armor in ways that would normally only be even close to feasible through high-level Magical effects, Spells, and Runes. I am talking about the ability to make truly legendary weapons that are naturally perfectly balanced, cut deeper, swing easier, and possibly even negate resistances to the type of damage they normally deal. Armor that is lighter, less cumbersome, more durable/harder, and maybe even just literally BETTER than the stuff you can buy from any old Blacksmith. There is also the possibility that they could add modifications to the Weaponry and Armor that flat out grant it one or more Traits from a limited selection that is gated by their Character Level.

All of these things without even so much as mentioning the word "Magic" in their Class at all except to clarify that these things they are able to do and make are explicitly NEVER Magical.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
It sort of seems like some sort of "inventor" or "artificer" is kind of squeezed between "the Alchemist, perhaps with a new research field" and "the ranger who specializes in snares."
I can’t see it as a Research Field while still having it claim to be an Alchemist.
I could see an alchemist research field devoted primarily to metallurgy and material engineering. You can use chemicals and process to get your materials to do what you want to do with them.

You win this round.


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I was just saying elsewhere this morning that I wish there were a second amagical class to work as companion to alchemist. There is, in my opinion, a ton of design space both mechanically and in the game world for such a thing.

I don't have any useful specific ideas though. Just that I hope it exists, that non-magical items can come up with their own cool steampunky progression system to offer an alternative to runes, and that firearms get a bit more interesting side-grade rules so that they aren't just weird crossbows.


Since alchemist is already a bit of a "technology" class, I'd actually like to see it as one of those alchemist adjacent archetypes or a class specific archetype for the alchemist that allows them to build weird gizmos with reagents, and possibly allow access to golem companions and familiar feats. Reagents is already a nice feel for a gadgeteer, if you peel off the alchemy specific flavor;just think of them as spare parts, and the gadgets you build in the morning are more stable than the ones you whip up on the fly


I really don't want a gadgeteer class clanking around as a fantasy Iron Man. That's wayyy too far into "magical lightning train" territory for me. In general, I'd rather not have an "Inventor" class; it implies that you're coming up with new stuff when… it's a full class, that has features and feats available to every character with that class.


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QuidEst wrote:
I really don't want a gadgeteer class clanking around as a fantasy Iron Man. That's wayyy too far into "magical lightning train" territory for me. In general, I'd rather not have an "Inventor" class; it implies that you're coming up with new stuff when… it's a full class, that has features and feats available to every character with that class.

Yeah, Iron Man is pretty far. I'm not sure in general people are advocating for crafted supersuits. Personally I always like to think about that steampunky diving-bell dwarf in the Pathfinder Society NPCs in the Lost Omens Character Guide. He is awesome and I want to be him when I grow up.

I wouldn't get too hung up on "Inventor" either as it's just a moniker people are bipping around because we have no idea if there even is such a class or what its name might be.


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It feels like "build a diving bell, a flying machine, or rocket shoes" is something you would do in downtime anyway, and a class can't be defined by downtime since "how much downtime you get" is highly campaign dependent.

One thing I would like to see PF2 stay away from is "whole classes potentially being invalidated by just normal campaign tropes" (like the Cavalier was in PF1 if there was very little opportunity to ride a horse or horse analogue.)


PossibleCabbage wrote:

It feels like "build a diving bell, a flying machine, or rocket shoes" is something you would do in downtime anyway, and a class can't be defined by downtime since "how much downtime you get" is highly campaign dependent.

One thing I would like to see PF2 stay away from is "whole classes potentially being invalidated by just normal campaign tropes" (like the Cavalier was in PF1 if there was very little opportunity to ride a horse or horse analogue.)

All fair points. I'm just a dreamer, not a designer, haha. I wish and want for wild things, but then I'm usually very happy with whatever comes. Except the witch. That one let me down.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

It feels like "build a diving bell, a flying machine, or rocket shoes" is something you would do in downtime anyway, and a class can't be defined by downtime since "how much downtime you get" is highly campaign dependent.

One thing I would like to see PF2 stay away from is "whole classes potentially being invalidated by just normal campaign tropes" (like the Cavalier was in PF1 if there was very little opportunity to ride a horse or horse analogue.)

The alchemist specifically gets around that by ignoring the normal craft time of items. I don't see why that can't be applied to other types of crafting.

Put your diving suit together in the morning, letting it fall apart after a day, seems like a reasonable enough boundary.


"Mixing some chemicals" is something I can believe can be done in 5 minutes.

"Creating a flying machine" is something I doubt you can do in the morning before breakfast.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

"Mixing some chemicals" is something I can believe can be done in 5 minutes.

"Creating a flying machine" is something I doubt you can do in the morning before breakfast.

Cool, but, by RAW, mixing chemicals takes 4 days.

So, again, I don't see why the same mechanic can't work for other kinds of crafting.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:
Gunsmithing and Chemistry (Not Alchemy, I'm talking pure refined science not steeped in any amount of mysticism whatsoever).

What makes you think PF alchemy isn't scientific?

Alchemical items aren't even magical in PF2.

Is it just the letters 'al' that turn you off?

Liberty's Edge

I would like the object-specialist to be able to boost a number of objects each day during preparation. The boost could be to improve their item bonus for the day, to improve their durability (for shields), or even to add damage dice to weapons, even if only for a short time (like the Magic weapon spell, but still useful at higher levels).

And the specialist would get even more bonuses from using the objects they prepared in this way.

Sovereign Court

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Developing a flying apparatus in five seconds would be pushing it yeah, but constructing some versatile IKEA parts during your daily preparations every morning is negotiable.

That might make it more a "choose your build for today" kind of class, a bit similar to fighters with martial flexibility at level 9 but then much more of it. Or kinda like prepared spellcasters, if all your spells were long-term buffs.

I'd say the challenge in such a class would be making it so that you would actually want to change your daily build (and this class could legitimately call it a Daily Build) instead of using the same one all the time. I got the impression most PF1 mediums just channeled the same spirit every day, at least whenever they were adventuring with the same party (PFS). That would defeat the purpose of the class.

So I think what you're looking at isn't so much math-boosting tech like a +1 to hit which you of course select every day, but more adapt-to-adventure or adapt-to-what-we-do-today tech. Maybe with some ability to do mid-day corrections when you figure out you're going somewhere you didn't expect. Not unlike a wizard with the thesis that allows changing prepared spells.


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An inventor that worked a bit like Magic of Incarnum could be cool. Pick from a big list of gadgets, then throughout the day you can move power around amongst them. I haven't looked much at Incarnum in several years though, but I think that was the basics.


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The fantasy of the inventor as a combat class has a little mad scientist energy to me so I'd want some literaly "blow up in your face mechanics" but probably not too random.
More like wands which you can overcharge and risk destroying them but also hurting yourself if you overextert your inventions.

Maybe worse martial progression but being able to enhance weapon temporarily.


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Winkie_Phace wrote:
An inventor that worked a bit like Magic of Incarnum could be cool. Pick from a big list of gadgets, then throughout the day you can move power around amongst them. I haven't looked much at Incarnum in several years though, but I think that was the basics.

Check out the Occultist class as well, as I believe it was in part inspiried by the Incarnum system. Depending on how they go about it, that might be the PF2 equivalent of what you're looking for.

Ascalaphus wrote:
I'd say the challenge in such a class would be making it so that you would actually want to change your daily build (and this class could legitimately call it a Daily Build) instead of using the same one all the time. I got the impression most PF1 mediums just channeled the same spirit every day, at least whenever they were adventuring with the same party (PFS). That would defeat the purpose of the class.

As an aside, that's partly why I favor the flexible multiclass feat approach for the medium. Even if you always channel a sorcerer every morning, you might decide to be a dragon sorcerer one morning, an undead one the next, then an undead one the next day but with a different set of feats, and finally a Nymph sorcerer when you're about to head back into town to shake down some merchants.

And for this proposed class, why I would like to see trait manipulation become their main deal. Because there's definitely going to be some days where you wish your bow could shoot blunt arrows, but other days when you'll want them to deal a bit of acid damage.

Liberty's Edge

And having always the proper type of damage is definitely a big part of the Alchemist' schtick.


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It's a shame the scrounger archetype doesn't scale better; combine it with the snarecrafter on an alchemist and you've got a character with a strong inventor vibe.


I'd associate inventor most with electricity and fire damage.


I jokingly said at one point that inventors should be primal partial casters. I don't actually think that, but I will say that a crafting, energy focus would be a VERY different take on the primal tradition.

Edit: I'd probably enjoy seeing partial primal casting on an alchemist as a class archetype.


One thing I'd worry about another mad scientist class is what effect this would have on the setting. The alchemist skates by because "we mix these chemicals together and they react violently, or maybe consuming them has good/bad effects" is a pretty easy thing to slide into a fantasy world- most people aren't going to just start mixing chemicals together to see what happens in hopes that makes their lives better.

But if we make the class about gear, if a mad scientist type can rig together something by slapping some gears and wire together then why isn't this sort of thing more common on Golarion?

If your limiter on this is "well, most people don't know the secret to making clockwork work" or something like that, then this is the sort of thing that's better done with an archetype or class path because classes should be sort of universal in the setting in the sense that it's plausible to find any one of them anywhere.

Plus there's also the issue of "hey look at me, I've invented elevators, a seed drill, a sextant, and a naval chronometer" then why is this person going to bother risking their life in a dungeon?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Couldn't you make the same argument about magic, PossibleCabbage? You can do a lot of incredible things with spells that aren't necessarily always reflected in the fabric of the setting, particularly when it comes to logistics.

That said, given the context of the system I feel like if we do get an "inventor" style class it'd probably focus on enhancing existing equipment and playing around with those sorts of things, rather than building bespoke mechanical items. Augment your magical full plate, rather than building a suit of "power armor", etc.


A big difference is that not everybody can use magic, or even activate a scroll, a wand, or a staff if one is given to them.

But almost anybody can use a gun, a bicycle, or an iPhone if handed one.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

One thing I'd worry about another mad scientist class is what effect this would have on the setting. The alchemist skates by because "we mix these chemicals together and they react violently, or maybe consuming them has good/bad effects" is a pretty easy thing to slide into a fantasy world- most people aren't going to just start mixing chemicals together to see what happens in hopes that makes their lives better.

But if we make the class about gear, if a mad scientist type can rig together something by slapping some gears and wire together then why isn't this sort of thing more common on Golarion?

If your limiter on this is "well, most people don't know the secret to making clockwork work" or something like that, then this is the sort of thing that's better done with an archetype or class path because classes should be sort of universal in the setting in the sense that it's plausible to find any one of them anywhere.

Adding an inventor or engineer class will change nothing about the setting because they already exist. Like I said in my first post, there's already a bunch, in published PF2 materials and adventures, in several locations and continents. In fact clockwork items and creatures, specifically, already exist (though not clocks).

A couple NPC inventors were even in the AP installment last month. And one of the NPCs this month

Spoiler:
pilots a giant mech
.

Now none of that is a guarantee that a class in is the pipeline. I happen to think it is, but I've made many incorrect guesses. One more wouldn't bother me.


I actually like the 5e artificer design. On one hand, they can maintain a small amount of magic items that are semi-permanent (until replaced by another), and on the other hand they can cast spells representing improvising inventions on the spot.

PF2 seems to frown on using spells to reflect things that aren't actually spellcasting, though (even ignoring the problems PF2 has with half-casters).


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I haven't bought it yet, but a 3rd party publisher has already created their own Inventor class for PF2.


The thing I think it's important to underline with a class like this is that there has to be a built-in reason why this stuff isn't commonplace.

Like "you made your own gun, it is finicky and requires constant maintenance which is not something most people are willing/able to do" or something like the constructed pugilist in PF1 (where you can have a mechanical arm, and you can put a grappling hook in it, but the reason you did this is probably mostly about "you were already down one arm")


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The thing I think it's important to underline with a class like this is that there has to be a built-in reason why this stuff isn't commonplace.

Part of my confusion with your posts is that this IS commonplace, (or, more properly, not that uncommon) on the DM's side at least. Especially in places where magic is inherently unreliable or less widely practiced, like in the Mana Wastes or Rahadoum, or where there is a surfeit of scrap like in Numeria, there's a bunch of engineers and inventors. In addition, there's about half a dozen ancestry feats that talk about smithing, jury-rigging traits onto items, and slapping together shoddy items out of junk; all of which are themes I would expect an inventor class (as I envision it) to explore. Plus commonly available skill feats like Inventor or the uncommonly available scrounger archetype.

What they haven't done is release an player-side class analogue to all the NPCs they've mentioned and included, probably because such a class would require more items than they've had room for. And, frankly, because a lot of DMs like you dislike the idea of technology in their Golarion (probably also why the scrounger is uncommon). So I would expect a class like this to be part of a book that is specifically about dialing up non-magical crafting and technological items/characters, where a DM can say "yay" or "nay" to the entire book/sections and avoid both the class and the accompanying steampunk-esque items altogether if they so wish, while still allowing it in the setting and adventure materials.

If nothing else, they've put a ton of effort into revising the crafting rules, but haven't really done much with them besides alchemy and snares. I'd like to see them open that up to more types of crafting like blacksmithing and woodworking, and it would be easier to do that if they started fresh with a class that is not as consumable focused as the alchemist.

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Sporkedup wrote:

Personally I always like to think about that steampunky diving-bell dwarf in the Pathfinder Society NPCs in the Lost Omens Character Guide. He is awesome and I want to be him when I grow up.

Even though he has a name, we still refer to him as "Captain Octoboots". The art was so good, I absolutely had to work him into Bandits of Immenwood.

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