Did not know that! Thanks for the info.
No problem, happy to help. ;)
Lastwall Survivor, Whispering Way Scion, Geb Crusader and Quick are the backgrounds with it if you wish to look them up.
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I missed this post earlier. That's an interesting observation, especially considering the very many threads and posters (myself included!) who saw/sees Charisma as underpowered.Both Cha and Int suffer from having very limited 'passive' benefits compared to the Save stats, but there are a lot of really strong Cha-driven skill activities and feats to augment them. Charisma is still bad on its own, but bon mot and scare to death and other options are really sweet.
I think Int might feel especially bad to people who were really into PF1 and are drawing comparisons between the two, because Int was already kind of a mediocre stat in that game and has only gotten weaker in the edition transition.
Just to play Devils Advocate here - while neither Int nor Cha have significant mechanical benefits in combat, or passive benefits as you've noted, both have MASSIVE mechanical benefits in other fields of play.
Intelligence is a massive gatekeeper when it comes to being the character who "knows things" in general, and is a massive driver when it comes to playing a character who can mechanically support the narrative of being knowledgeable and smart. Theres a lot of "power" in being able to reliably bust out knowledge and lore checks in all scenarios, that a lot of Players enjoy.
Similarly, Charisma is the mechanical force behind "getting your way" that a lot of players like to have outside of combat. Its tied to ALL the social skills, and you need social skills to convince NPCs to do the things you want.
I'm a generally pretty narrative GM, but if you want to get stuff done through interaction and social skills, I'm going to set a DC and you need to roll for it - I'm not generally a "you roleplayed it well, so you get a pass" type of GM.
That only flies if you roleplay something so well I forget to call for the check... which is pretty rare, because I want to find some way to fit things into the structure of the game.
Which, in turn, rewards investments in Int and Cha and helps make the stats "worth it".
The above isn't universal, but it is a different perspective that applies specifically to the value of both attributes being discussed.
And its not homebrew, either - RAW, that's a lot of where a lot of those Attributes value is supposed to come up.
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I'd certainly enjoy some int-based "bon mot"s or feats that give you extra proficiency boosts based on your int score.
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I'd certainly enjoy some int-based "bon mot"s or feats that give you extra proficiency boosts based on your int score.
If we're being honest, a Bon Mot is a "witty remark", so although I can't really picture a "delivery" outside of Diplomacy (Society?) it would have made more sense to me if it was actually INT based.
But I'm probably alone on that one. I suppose the "wit" might be from the Training in Diplomacy. shrug
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2 big advantages of Cha that are rarely mentioned: Multiclassing & Innate spellcasting.
A lot of multiclassing that are considered good require charisma (Champion, Bard, Sorcerer). Charisma Classes also have a lot of synergy between each others.
Innate spells scales of Charisma, which helps with ancestry spells, but most importantly with archetypes with innate spellcasting. The more we will be getting of these, the more option Charisma characters/casters will have extended options.
To go back to the subject, a Shadow Sorcerer will be way more efficient as a Shadowdancer than a Night Witch.
Overall I am not really sure why the Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch have 6hp other than to kind of force them out of the front lines.
Mechanically I feel casters are pretty much equal in abilities while Sorc/Witch/Wizard not even counting hp. They just artificially made the squishier classes by default.
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since i prsonally find it quite immersion breaking that you can be playing a 6 Int surgeon and not have any issues.
You can also play a dexterity 8 Surgeon without any problem which is proably even worse (I just realised there is no ancestry with -2 Dex)
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tbf, i'm more peeved that Medicine, Religion, and Nature aren't governed by BOTH wisdom and Int (you get to choose one, not both at the same time)
Same, to be honest.
It feels narratively weird to me that you can't use education and intellect to fuel your understanding of religious iconography or animal physiology or extraplanar outsiders or anatomy.
As others pointed out, you can buy some of that back with lores, but it's a LOT of lores if you want to replicate one of those skills with Int (and no amount of lores lets you treat wounds).
Just to play Devils Advocate here - while neither Int nor Cha have significant mechanical benefits in combat, or passive benefits as you've noted, both have MASSIVE mechanical benefits in other fields of play.
I don't disagree, but Dex and Wisdom get to be powerhouses of passive benefits and conceptual enablers at the same time, so it can still feel a little frustrating.
Or to put it another way, if I choose to play a low-int character, accepting that I can't be as good at smarts-themed skills is part of the buy in.
But choosing to play a low-wis character not only hits me on that same front, but also chews up my will saves and perception checks and (often) my initiative too. So it can feel sort of like that concept is getting double or triple penalized over the other.
since i prsonally find it quite immersion breaking that you can be playing a 6 Int surgeon and not have any issues.You can also play a dexterity 8 Surgeon without any problem which is proably even worse (I just realised there is no ancestry with -2 Dex)
1. The voluntary flaw system allows most races to play most classes without any problem. in fact, if you start with a race with +2 dex, you can drop it down straight to -2 dex without having to dump any other stat. I think this is more common with dumping int as an elf so I can cover up the con penalty, but dex is a valid option.
2. I think you could grab the basic competence rule from performance if it is a problem. That is the one saying "ok, seriously, what did you think would happen when you made an 8 dex dancer".
The inherent reasoning in previous editions for skills that didn’t use “Int” that could be argued to use int was that the representation of “intellect” in the use of a Skill was reflected in the points spent, which indirectly were fueled by INT.
And in a sense, although to a much less degree, Trained is meant to reflect this knowledge (and since your skills known is dependent on INT that is where it’s reflected).
So Religion for instance being trained means you’ve studied religion heavily, to the point where you are a scholar. The Wisdom modifier is to indicate the insights you derived from the studying you did.
And to be honest, being a surgeon is 10 years of school/training. That’s going to be reflected mostly in years of training and proficiency. Wisdom might allow you to see where to apply your honed skills the best or remember the exact order of events for proceeding.
Now sure, one to one translations are never going to be perfect, but I do think it’s important to remember that indirectly INT plays the role you all are talking about via the Proficiency itself. It just so happens the correlation between skill proficiency and int was taken a further step outside this edition.
Yeah I’d be a big supporter of another Skill Feat like Skill Training with Training as a requirement and 16 INT (like the other Skill Feats with high requirements such as Intimidating Prowess).
It is worth noting though that in order to take Skill Training Skill Feat you need 12 INT. As for the General Feat mentioned, that may be true, but you get 5 General Feats unless you are Human, and Fleet, Canny Acumen, Ancestral Paragon, are all good gets as well.
It’s not perfect and I mention the loss of Skill Points between edition was a big factor for a stealth nerf to INT in general.
The entire reason Int was a good stat in PF1 was because it gave you more skill ranks. It was not that it was used by knowledge checks.
Paizo deliberately removed the bonus skill ranks which removed the only reason to ever get more Int on a class not based off Int.
Not to mention Int classes are still being punished with less starting skills, even if its just 1.
Not really punished. So when design a game that assumes players can freely assign their attributes its not really punishing to assume a Wizard is going to have a high Intelligence.
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So at the end of the day I tend to view the armor and weapon proficiency differences as mostly ribbon abilities. HP matters a bit more than that, but only in the event that difference in HP would cause one to get knocked out, but not the other.
The really important differences lay in the class features that actually support their skillset. Composition cantrips are stronger than a supplemental feature for a spell caster probably should be. Not sure how you can downplay it though given it affects the core math of the game.
Imo, atm, Int is easily the most dumpable stat in the game, a few extra trained skills, when you get like 6-7 of them on the average character, isn't really cutting it imo.
Strength and Charisma are more easily dumped. At least, Int gives you a few extra trained skills. Strength only gives bulks (even if Athletics is quite commonly used) and Charisma nearly nothing (social skills are not a necessity at all).
Also, there is Disturbing Knowledge which is on par with Scare to Death and based off Intelligence.And Additional Lore is a pretty solid skill feat (most low level skill feats are meh, all my Int-based characters end up loaded with Lores).
So, I won't say that Intelligence is better than Charisma but there are nice things you can get out of a high Inteliigence.
Disturbing Knowledge is 2 actions for a demoralize until level 15. Even after level 15, it being 2 actions it means that its usability is extremely inferior to the 1 action Cha debuffs. It could have been easily made a 1 action for single target and 2 action for AoE if it was to keep up with Cha skills.
I obviously speak of the Legendary effect. Before that, it's really bad. But the Legendary effect is excellent when you face a lot of enemies (and clearly worth 2 actions). Scare to Death is, on average, more impactful than Disturbing Knowledge, but way more limited. It's a Death effect, if the enemy doesn't speak your language you have a -4, it doesn't affect Swarms, you have a miss chance if the enemy is Concealed/Hidden. On top of that, you can add the fact that most characters will have Scare to Death at level 16 when you can pay for a lower level skill feat for Disturbing Knowledge. So, when I compare both of them, they are equivalent in my opinion.
And I was comparing only to Scare to Death, but it's still a big asset of Intimidation.Every interaction with an NPC is based on Cha, so I don't think it's that dumpable
If you have a Bard in your party, you'll nearly never roll a Charisma-based check. Charisma is easy to dump, just let the others do the talking.
And Cha is also extremely potent in combat with just base demoralize, so for any Martial, it's easily much more important compared to Int.
We are speaking of a dump stat. If you dump Charisma, you don't invest in Intimidation. If you don't invest in Intimidation, you don't care of dumping Charisma. Also, Intimidation only works if you have high Proficiency and high Charisma. So it needs a solid investment that many martials won't put.
Strength, for Casters, i agree, but for anyone not a caster i'd value Str way above Cha. And the comparison was between the mental stats, out of the 3 stats, you drop Int in a heartbeat on a non-Int main character.
Not at all. Many classes only have 5 Trained skills. Even if being Trained is not awesome on its own, it means you will have the right to roll the dice 20% less often if you dump int.
And Untrained Improvisation is only interesting at level 7+, costs a General feat and is not a solution if the only thing you want is to be Trained in a few skills.On the other end, dumping Strength on casters or Charisma on non-Charisma-based characters have no real impact (Strength has a bit more impact than Charisma, though).
I completely disagree that there aren't good level 1 skill feats. Additional Lore, while ok, is nothing special.
I didn't say there aren't, I said there are very few. If you don't care about Medicine and Intimidation, I don't see much good low level feats. And even at Expert proficiency, they aren't lots of good things to take.
Additional Lore is solid. If you choose a Lore that is either impactful in the campaing you are in or a Lore that is important to your character. Like Lore (Undead) if you are fighting the Whispering Tyrant or Lore (Absalom) if you play Agents of Edgewatch.As a side note, there are many feats (like Elven Ancestry feats) and spells that give you a Lore once per day. It is a very solid use of Intelligence, too.
If your character never speaks to NPCs then you are indeed playing a mute character.
There is a big difference between never speaking and never rolling a Diplomacy check. Unless your DM asks for checks at every word, you're fine speaking with 8 Charisma. What you're not fine is speaking with the king or trying to get information out of a prisoner. But in that case, I'm pretty sure you'll let the Bard do the job.
If I play a non charismatic character, I never roll a Charisma-based skill. But I speak a lot (still less than a charismatic character).I've personally seen less than 3-4 character in 1 year of playing that didn't have 7+ trained skills. Archetypes giving trained proficiencies, ancestry feats, general skills, etc all help up with having more than enough skills to cover you for the vast majority of cases.
I agree. But I've taken extra skills in more than one character, and always because I was not having all the skills I wanted my character to have.
I have very few characters who have more skills than necessary. It's not because you don't increase a skill that you don't want your character to have it. For example, all my characters are Trained in Athletics and Acrobatics, but few of them are Expert or above. Because these skills are in my opinion mandatory to have but not important to increase for all characters.So, if you count Athletics + Acrobatics + 3 skills to Legendary + 1 background or class skill that may be one you don't want (it happens), you are at 6 skills already. If you want to be able to roll a Stealth check or just say that your character knows a bit about Arcana, you need extra skills.
Anyway, Intelligence is an attribute you can easily dump, but Charisma is an attribute you can dump even more easily as it has close to zero passive impact on the game.
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So, thoughts. About this stat argument.
The stat you choose to dump is dependant on your class and concept.
So this dump int or cha or str etc. Holds zero universal water.
If you dump str you better not be a non thief melee martial. Or maybe a investigator or some swashbucklers. Could you dump str on a monk? I guess. Finesse is a thing. But I'd never do it at level 1 due to that +4 being such a big part of your damage at that level.
Plus you cannot use athletics Wich is fantastic in this edition and one of the best ways for many melee martials to contribute beyond attacking when they don't focus on a tertiary stat like charisma.
Am I the only one that things intelligence has some fantastic skills attached to it? Plus the corner case ability to choose niche lores and get lower DC checks when they apply. Something I've done in my wizard to good effect. Society. Crafting. Are both fantastic imo. I actually love my society skilled noble fighter.
As for dumping cha. Perhaps my groups play it differently. But it's rare not to have some kind of cha check every social encounter. You have to be rather careful on what you say in order for a DM to not say "roll x cha skill". But you can talk without rolling.
So far, the only time I dump stats is when it doesn't fit into my character concept. Not because the stat itself is easily ignored. I've made many classes that start with 10con. Though I always pump it through asi
1 action at-will debuffs, which is what Cha offers, is much harder to find compared to a few extra skills, especially since there is a vast array of things that either offer trained skills as natural part of them (like every MC archetype), or offer "pick and choose what you like daily" (ancestry feats and spells), or simply obliterate the "extra skills advantage" by granting all and every skill as basically trained proficiency (well, trained-2) for 1 general feat.
Others (obviously) see the trained skills more important than the Cha debuffs.
It's just that personally, i've nver seen anyone boosting Int above like 14 or so if his class didn't *force* him to. Cha on the other hand i've seen a lot of Martials raising even up to 20 exactly due to how powerful those debuffs are.
You are not speaking of the same thing than me. I'm speaking of dump stats. You are speaking of secondary stats.
Is Charisma a best secondary stat than Intelligence. Yes, clearly.But when we speak about dump stat, Charisma is a better dump stat than Intelligence as it gives absolutely nothing when Intelligence gives extra Trained skills.
call it what you will.
Incentive to raise Int is rock bottom for non-Int classes. At least in my experience.
That for me speaks volume about the overall effectiveness of a Stat.
A dump stat is a stat without passive impact.
A secondary stat is a stat where (passive + active) impact is high.So, it's easier to dump Charisma than Intelligence. But it's more interesting to increase Charisma than Intelligence. Charisma is a better dump stat and a better secondary stat than Intelligence. Roughly, it means that Charisma is an all or nothing stat. Either you increase it and the associated skills or you can put an 8 and be fine with it. But 12 Charisma, that is bad.
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I feel like if you're going to argue "dump stat value" we need to talk about the elephant in the room in PF2:
The "lowest" you can really dump a stat is 10 (outside Ancestry penalties) and you don't really gain any meaningful incentives for dumping anymore (ala point buy). And it's pretty easy to gain a 14, and even easier to advance CHA as you gain Ability Boosts.
So "CHA being a better dump stat than INT", which IMO is arguable on anyone that doesn't start with a deficit in CHA, doesn't really hold the same weight it did in PF1. Being a better dump stat is a pretty niche thing when we have neither incentive nor common circumstance to merit "dump".
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Regardless, and I definitely am a culprit that moved the talk in this direction, we probably should make a new thread for Stat/Skill discussions. This thread is about the Witch.
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If more INT based Skill Feats come out to support Witch/Wizard, I think that would help a lot (particularly ones revolving around the main Skill of traditions).
And honestly, to me, an alternate Crafting system would do Witch/Wizard/Alchemist WONDERS.
Perhaps we will get some of these in the Secrets of Magic book.
More often than not. I make int martials target than cha ones. So it's indeed subjective. But I value the ooc and in combat potential options I have through int higher. Mainly because I find them more interesting.
what Int based in combat potential options you are talking about?
Recall knowledge. Crafting. Some skill feats help greatly ooc as well when I'm not interested in the face dance but can get gotcha moments or get piece's of puzzles a face cannot.
So, only Recall for in-combat.
That's why i'm saying that Int severely lacks in-combat applications.
? You severely undervalued recall knowledge imo. It's a potential massive stratagem and problem solver.
Love my int combat assessment fighter.
So, only Recall for in-combat.
That's why i'm saying that Int severely lacks in-combat applications.
Except that Int is a gatekeeper for all skills. Higher intelligence allows you to pursue both the skills you want for in combat (Athletics, Intimidate, etc) AND the things you want for your character otherwise.
While many may consider it a small sacrifice to take Athletics/Intimidate over "other stuff you want for your character", I have made exactly zero characters ever that did not want for more Trained skills.
A skill only has to be at Trained to be relevant for use. Because most skill actions target saves and not AC, against a foe weak to an action because of a bad Save a Trained skill is plenty to be viable.
The discussion started from why (high Int) (the witch main stat) is much worse than (high Cha) (the bard main stat).
And my original intervention was about dump stat, hence the misunderstanding. I agree with you about Cha being better when upgraded.
As a side note, I'm rather unimpressed by Demoralize on my Sorcerer. It has a really short range (30 feet means I'm exposed). So, I ended up never using it. Recall Knowledge doesn't have the range issue and is sometimes very valuable to the point of being decisive. So, I consider Int as a quite important stat.
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I mean Recall Knowledge is an action spread across literally 6 different Skills (and then also Lore). And some of those Skills don't even use INT, so it doesn't really have any bearing on value for "INT" in specific when you can't actively be good at all RKs realistically.
Demoralize functions with CHA regardless of who is the target (unless they are immune to Fear/Mindless/etc). The need to share a language is quickly overcome by a single Skill Feat (which can be attained via a background even). The investment cost to be good at Demoralize is vastly cheaper than RK.
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I mean Recall Knowledge is an action spread across literally 6 different Skills (and then also Lore). And some of those Skills don't even use INT, so it doesn't really have any bearing on value for "INT" in specific when you can't actively be good at all RKs realistically.
Demoralize functions with CHA regardless of who is the target (unless they are immune to Fear/Mindless/etc). The need to share a language is quickly overcome by a single Skill Feat (which can be attained via a background even). The investment cost to be good at Demoralize is vastly cheaper than RK.
Aye but I also really one the skill feats you can get via some int skills as well. Maybe it's a me thing. It's part of why I liked magus too.
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If Intelligence is appealing to you and Charisma is more appealing to other people, clearly something is going right. At least with those two stats compared to each other.
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call it what you will.
Incentive to raise Int is rock bottom for non-Int classes. At least in my experience.
That for me speaks volume about the overall effectiveness of a Stat.
A dump stat is a stat without passive impact.
A secondary stat is a stat where (passive + active) impact is high.
I have genuinely never heard of this definition of "dump stat".
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I have genuinely never heard of this definition of "dump stat".call it what you will.
Incentive to raise Int is rock bottom for non-Int classes. At least in my experience.
That for me speaks volume about the overall effectiveness of a Stat.
A dump stat is a stat without passive impact.
A secondary stat is a stat where (passive + active) impact is high.
I don't think that SuperBidi is trying to argue that the definition of 'dump stat' is anything other than 'stat you dump', he's instead explaining what he thinks makes a good dump stat. And he's not really wrong, either. The more passive impact a stat has, the harder it is to dump, since you can avoid making use of a stat's active qualities but not its passive ones (ie: Wisdom is a bad dump stat even if you rarely use it actively because you need Will Saves and Perception for initiative, both passive/reactive uses, Strength is a good one for full casters uninterested in melee since its only 'passive' use is Bulk).
Now, how much that applies to the Int/Cha conversation is another matter, but that seems to be what he's getting at.
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Yes, I should have said a good dump stat, as on paper we can dump whatever stat we want.
If Intelligence is appealing to you and Charisma is more appealing to other people, clearly something is going right. At least with those two stats compared to each other.
Fair point!